Re: FR and debian, seems it's progressing

[Robert Taylor]

This is great news.

I am looking forward to running a distro on this thing with a PROPER 
security model ... no users running as root.

Thanks for linkage!

R.

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Re: moko running everything as root

[Robert Taylor]

Knight Walker wrote:
> Encryption is another matter, and one I will want addressed before too
> long. I've got some ideas on how it can be done, but I'll need to see
> more of the OM system "live" before I can begin to decide if my ideas
> are feasible or if they need changing.
>
> -KW
>
>   
Encryption is of interest to all and it would be very usefull to start 
some threads about that once the devices start to trickle out.

I agree.

Rob

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Re: My blog: Photo Tour Of The ASU

[Robert Taylor]

Kevin Dean wrote:
> Hi everyone. Over the weekend I took perhaps 50 or so screenshots of
> the ASU on a Freerunner. A lot of them are repetitive, simply showing
> all of the options on a given application. But others are
> "interesting" and show some new or under-reviewed applications.
>
> I've taken those "best of" images and put them together in a blog
> post. That post can be read at
> http://monochromementality.com/index.php/blog/show/Photo-Tour-of-the-ASU.html.
>
> I hope people enjoy!
>
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Kevin, thank you very much for the photo tour!

Rob

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Re: recent engagedt mobile post - When it will be possible to buy OpenMoko?

[Robert Taylor]

Crane, Matthew wrote:
> June 11 / 2008
>
> http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2008/06/11/openmoko-freerunner-gets-review
> ed-early/
>
> "The FreeRunner is FreeRunning a little late on its way into devs'
> hands, but that's not stopping OpenMoko from shipping out a few units
> early to VIPs"
>
> I'm sure nobody would be so ridiculous as to suggest something about
> unfairness or some similar foolishness.  
>
> - me wants to be a VIP 
>
>   
Hehehe!

Publicity is good *nod*.

Anything they do to garner success for them I'll happily help out with.

Would benice to be a VIP indeed!

Rob

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Re: moko running everything as root

[Robert Taylor]

Joerg Reisenweber wrote:
> If you have root AND user, root can make a backup copy of user's valuable 
> data 
> every once in a while, and user or the virus she imported while browsing the 
> web can NOT destroy this backup.
> I can't follow your arguments. It's NOT an evil person we need to fence in, 
> it's bad behaviour of applications that go nuts on (virus|bug|user fault|*)
>
> If we don't start to care about this topic NOW, we will see lots of poor 
> designed apps that rely on having root access where they shouldn't, and we 
> end up in a situation like M$, where the whole system is so much root-centric 
> that you simply can't switch to a sane user-management anymore, because it 
> would break half the system. To fix those apps later is a major PITA.
>
> I just "talked" to Wolfgang Spraul and he answered
> "But right now we are selling to hardcore developers only, so it's not  
> our #1 priority.
> Once our software becomes more stable and mature, this needs to be  
> addressed seriously. The good news is that the FOSS community is  
> pretty paranoid about this, so I'm sure over time we will have a good  
> solution."
> It's a FOSS project and you are "the community", so just contribute! I'd say, 
> do it *now*, as long as it's easy.
>
> cheers
> jOERG
>   
Hear hear.

I would be willing to sacrifice any future features in favour of working 
on this first.

As I think about the implications of this more and more its clear:

Linux wins the security war not because of technology BUT BECAUSE OF OUR 
CULTURE.

It is the culture of our users that makes us safer.  Hell, even Ubuntu 
is able to get noobs to follow the simplest security measures such as 
not running as root, surely we can do the same.

I say let's learn from the mistake of M$ and lets out think then because 
we sure as hell aren't going to outcompete them.

Rob

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Re: moko running everything as root

[Robert Taylor]

Kevin Dean wrote:
>
> In the mobile world, there is NOTHING more important than the user's
> data. Nothing. And in the mobile world, you can impliment root priv
> seperations till the cows come home, but it doesn't eliminate the fact
> that the most vulnerable part of the system is being put at risk
> still.
>
>
>   
This is nonsense.

Encrypt the data and have it backed up via policy/service/etc.

You cannot separate security from a device this powerful.  Hell you 
cannot separate security from even crappy devices.  Hell we now live in 
an age where frickin printers come with full webservers with 
ssh/ftp/telnet and are now a security risk as much as any desktop.

Despite the common belief, PHYSICAL access to a device DOES NOT 
GUARANTEE physical access to data.

A good enough key with a proper authentication scheme will keep the 
frickin NSA busy for 10's of thousands of years.

Let's not kid our selves.  Security is of the utmost importance 
ESPECIALLY IN A WIRELESS WORLD.

If you think Bluejacking was nothing, just wait until you start owning 
these puppies during a walk by - hell, I have plans for making a 
carrying bag with a full spectrume of equipment and antennas that does 
nothing BUT sniff out wireless devices in an attempt to own them just 
for fun.

How long do you think an root priviledged device like this would last 
under such circumstances?

The world is getting MORE HAZARDOUS not less, with the full power of 
laptops only 10 years old or less in our pockets how can anyone think 
this is not a serious consideration?

Rob

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Re: moko running everything as root

[Robert Taylor]

Kevin Dean wrote:
> I understand how and why permission seperations exist. :) What I'm
> saying is that if we sit back and evaluate how this device is going to
> be used in the vast majority of cases, you'll realize that unlike a
> desktop or server system, the data that a non-root user can delete is
> as bad, or perhaps even WORSE than destroying the system integrity
> itself.
>   
Famous last words buddy boy.

C'mon people, do you not realize that the moko carries more processing 
power than most desktop computers up to what, 1997?

Are you seriously thinking that the Windows 98 way of thinking with THAT 
MUCH power is sensible?

Is everyone this delusional?

C'mon people, in the age where people are loosing laptops with gigs of 
sensitive data, WE NEED MORE security measures not less.

We need proper linux security implemention, we need encrypted home 
direrctories and who knows what else we will have to get working.

Certainly we have already talked about the idea of a blackberry style 
proxy server, a policies framework (i'd like to see this via actually 
running kde4 on this device but thats a topic for another cpu), lockdown 
and talkbalk mechanism, etc.

The problem here isn't WHAT YOU want the device to be.  The problem here 
is WHAT WE ALL want the device to be.

Please remember that when they hardware becomes powerful enough, the 
essential difference in utility then falls on software.  If you want a 
phone only, you should be able to get a software profile that gets you 
that.  If you want a laptop in a pocket you should be able to get a 
profile for that.

The solution to the problem effectively is profiles via a 
centralized/decentralized policies framework.  Those that want a phone 
and everything running as root should be FORCED to make that decision 
manually so that when things go wrong THEY GET BLAMED and not the 
community.  For the rest of us, we will enjoy feature creep and an ever 
greater ability to do on the cel what we  normally do on the laptop. 

In the mean time I'm just glad to get an open device, our exposer is 
minimal in this run.   I just hope this changes down the road as no 
technical reasons seem to be popping up to justify this.

Rob



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Re: moko running everything as root

[Robert Taylor]

Kevin Dean wrote:
>
>> the om represents a device more powerfull than the computer linux was
>> developed on.
>>
>> i am not sure i understand you correctly, but for me it sounds like you
>> saying user/group separation is meaningfull for servers only (and only
>> because physical access can be prevented), for end user computers, laptops
>> specifically, it is a waste.
>> if so, you are pretty much alone with this understanding.
>>
>> what bothers me: as far as i understand the vast majority of applications
>> is ported from existing linux distributions or just recompiled -- so, why
>> would one disable the user/group principle the apps obey on their native
>> platform?
>> ubuntu for one works rather well with that wheel/sudo way and even on
>> non-ubuntu systems users are able "to run a lot of root applications such
>> as rdate, power off, opkg, etc." w/o beeing root all the time.
>>
>> ___
>> 
I agree with this.

The power of Linux is that we have NEVER developed a culture of bad 
habits like in Windows world.

Their EXACT problem is they trained their users to be lazy and stupid.

Linux users are FORCED to learn about security even at a bare minimum 
level and thus develop very good habits.

Thus, no matter what MS now tries, they are stuck dealing with an BADLY 
trained population while even with the success of things like Ubuntu you 
have noobs basically learning NOT to run as root.

It's about culture not EASE OF USE.

Rob

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Re: moko running everything as root

[Robert Taylor]

Francesco Albanese wrote:
> As I already pointed out, re-establishing the correct privilege
> isolation is a fundamental step to enforce security, even though the
> phone will have only 1 user. In the future we should have a few root
> process, dedicated accounts for daemons and a X session belonging to
> the user. IMHO it could be a good idea to suppress root account and to
> take full advantage of PAM+SUDO facility.
>
> F.A.
>   
100% agreed.

The moko isn't a phone ... it's a smart phone. 

This needs to be done right from the start if possible.

Rob



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Re: Why not use votation system?

[Robert Taylor]

Michele Renda wrote:
>   
>>  Could we  weight votes by  code committed. No code. No vote.
>>
>>   
>> 
I have a far better idea.

Why don't we kill this frickin thread and ban anyone from the mailing 
list for ever bringing this up?

Do we have to suffer noobs forever on really retarded topics?

I'd rather spend my time helping noobs out when moko starts to get 
traction than rehashing really dumb questions like this.

Rob


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Re: GTA03: New case? Bigger screen!

[Robert Taylor]

Nigel Cunningham wrote:
> That's too bad. I was going to buy GTA02, but decided not to because it
> lacks 3G. If GTA03 is going to lack it too, I guess I'd better look
> elsewhere for something / re-evaluate how long I want to wait before
> combining my organiser and phone into one.
>
> Nigel
>
>
> 
Well if you want the moko to compete with the iphone, I recommend that 
you just unsubscribe to this list and go buy an iphone.

I done mean that to be mean. 

It's just that this project is about trying to achieve FREEDOM while 
dealing with the restrictions the world places on us.

If 3g is such a dealbreaker go and satisfy your need - this project 
isn't designed for you.

Rob


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Re: OT: Nokia expects open source developers to accept things like DRM, commercial IP rights, and SIM locks.

[Robert Taylor]

Michael T. Dean wrote:
>
> My favorite line, "As an industry, we plan to use open-source 
> technologies but we are not yet ready to play by the rules; but this 
> needs to work the other way round too."
>
> What exactly does he mean by that?  It sounds like he's saying that the 
> industry is going to ignore the rules of open source and wants open 
> source developers to ignore the rules of "the industry"?  Though I'll 
> admit that interpretation is a complete contradiction of everything else 
> in the article, I can't come up with another interpretation.  I'm 
> guessing it's a bad quotation in the article or he just happened to 
> choose the wrong words to convey his message.
>
> Mike
>
> _
Yeah, I would guess he probably meant "we will play by the rules of the 
GPL so open source has to learn to play by our rules"

However, even that interpretation makes no sense ... either you are free 
or you are not.  GPL is about freedom and guaranteeing freedom, thus 
asking us to forget about freedom is basically to ask us to forget why 
we are here in the first place.

It won't happen.

If Redhat gets it, so can everyone else.

Rob

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Re: OT: Nokia expects open source developers to accept things like DRM, commercial IP rights, and SIM locks.

[Robert Taylor]

David Samblas Martinez wrote:
>
> So at the end the mail has become larger than I imagine, to summarize this 
> penguin is very hard to domesticate , 
>
>   
Very well said.

Rob

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moko running everything as root

[Robert Taylor]

Peter Nijs wrote:
>> no problems. what i don't want is people to get their hopes up. this was in
>> the context of people asking if they can play vga video and me going "good
>> luck!". there is reality - and you can sit and hack away spend lots of time
>> and get 1 case to work, and work well. as i said - it will depend on codec,
>> bitrate, quality etc. mpeg4 decode in hw is great - but remember it is also
>> limiting to just mp4 - all your mpeg1, ogg, etc. videos will not work. also
>> as long as mplayer is accessing glamo hardware it must run as root.
>> admittedly we run everything as root - but come the day when we don't...
>> this is trouble.
>>
>> 
Hi.

Can someone clear up for me why everything runs as root?  When I heard 
the iPhone ran everything as root I kinda sneered at it but now I can't 
be so smug.

What are the engineering reasons for this?

Rob

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Re: No 3G for GTA03, 2G/EDGE only?

[Robert Taylor]

Nkoli wrote:
> ...
> As a tmobile USA (non New York) user, 3G can wait till 2009 for all I 
> care, but EDGE is definitely a necessity. Since the rest of the world 
> will have been using 3G for 2-5 years by the time GTA03 is released, 
> not having 3G in that device will be a really bad idea. Forget the 
> camera, unless it is at least 3.2 MP with xenon or dual led flash.
> ...
Just out of curiosity - for all Americans here ... what is the 
availability of 3g service in the States?

Rob

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Re: SIM cards for Freerunner

[Robert Taylor]

ian douglas wrote:
> But the carriers in America, in my experience (and I currently use a 
> phone on each of Verizon, AT&T and TMobile), simply don't discount their 
> monthly plan rates for using an unlocked phone on their network. 
> Whatever portion of your monthly plan isn't otherwise going towards a 
> subsidy is pure profit for them.
>
> They're not about to give us a 10% or 20% break on our monthly bill, or 
> whatever percentage pays for the subsidy of a locked phone (like the 
> iPhone), otherwise the 'subsidy' no longer appears as a subsidy to the 
> end user who *does* buy a locked phone, the user sees it exactly as you 
> stated it -- they're financing their phone. And AT&T is going to want 
> that to appear as 'transparent' as possible to the consumer.
>
> That's my thought on it, anyway.
>
> -id
>
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>   
>
Oh okay so its semantics then. 

*NOD*

:)

Rob

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Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)

[Robert Taylor]

Kevin Dean wrote:
> I'm an American and your statement confuses me. Why is it "obvious"
> that a contract without a phone should be cheaper? The service
> (cellular connectivity for voice and/or data) is the same service no
> matter what phone you have.
>
> In the US, the price of service contracts doesn't change. The price of
> PHONES does when you agree to commit to a service contract but the
> service contract doesn't.
>
>   
Which part of "a portion of the contract pays for you phone ... phone 
ISN'T FREE, YOU ARE FINANCING THE PURCHASE OF THE PHONE VIA THE 
CONTRACT" is hard to understand?

Why do americans have such a hard time grasping this?

Rob

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

[Robert Taylor]

ian douglas wrote:
> Robert Taylor wrote:
>  > I'm not dropping this. You still have it wrong.
>
> Hi Robert,
>
> I'm not trying to win the overall argument, I just want you to 
> acknowledge that my position is as valid as your own, as I do for your 
> position in point #2 below.
>
>   
Ian, I acknowledge that your point is valid.

My apologies to you and everyone for making more of a stink out of this 
than necessary.

I get it, we can't win playing their game. 

According to someones post a while back, it will be at least a year  
before any of the hoops can be jumped through before the moko will start 
to be considered as part of some sort of subsidized package deal.

Although there is wiggle room, it seems that if we can't make the device 
stand out and we get locked into feature vs feature war that it is a 
loosing strategy.   The iphone deal is a pretty horrible deal, as is the 
blackberry device.  I can't understand how anyone buys things like 
that.  However RIM and Apple have managed to do a great job at 
differentiating their brand in the market place and getting their 
message out.

I wonder if we have anything that unique to offer.  Can the open world 
come up with an identity?  Or is our identity no identity?


Rob

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price - Things clear

[Robert Taylor]

Robert Taylor wrote:
> Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
>   
>> 
> Precisely.  And if you want to quit your contract you will pay A FEE 
> that will make your phone far more expensive than $600.
>
> I wish people would stop saying nonsense.
>
> It really doesn't matter if you unlock the phone or not, the person that 
> bought it will end up paying the full retail price of it no matter what, 
> quitting contract or not quitting contract.
>
> To sign the contract is to agree to finance the retail cost of the v.2.0.
>
> You will not be seeing 2.0 versions on ebay for $199 that are legit.  
> Those that aren't legit are either stolen, knockoffs or refurbished, in 
> which case who gives a damn, they are stolen, knockoffs or refurbished 
> and not in competition.
>
> The math simply doesn't add up fellas.
>
>   
Bah!  Ignore this please ... I hit reply to the wrong thread!!!

My bad, appologies.

Rob

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price - Things clear

[Robert Taylor]

Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
> now it changes with the 3g iphone. you must sign up when you buy. sure - you
> can now take that phone, unlock it, re-sell it, but you are stuck with a
> contract you must keep paying for... with no phone to use on that contract
> unless you buy another phone - outright. there will be contract termination
> clauses if you want to cancel then and this will help cover the subsidy - of
> not completely cover it and then some...
>   
Well I guess this thread is probably dead, lots of good points made.  
I'll stop here as I don't think I can provide anything usefull on the 
price comparison.  Carsten I agree with your point.

I think its safe to say that if our technically saavy and intelligent 
users cannot tell the difference between a retail and subsidized phone 
its a given joe six pack won't spend the time to research it any 
further.  My hope is that we can all parrot the same message so when 
shit hits the fans and fucking noobs start flooding in here we can have 
toe a single line and explain to them the difference one noob at a time 
- just like the ubuntu folks are doing on irc quite well.

I think I've failed in convincing any people here so that one is lost.

So let's see if we can salvage some of the back and forth and see if we 
can get some brainstorming going ... here is a brainstorm I had in 
another thread about what we can do to differentiate the moko.  It's 
clear if we (well frankly there is no we, its fic and their team, but 
i'll pretend there is a we to encourage a free platform) get too close 
to trying to compete on iphones terms or redmonds terms we will lose.

How about if we try to change the playing field a bit, one release at a 
time.  Here is one way I thought we can do it ... please feel free to 
comment or tear it appart:

Yes.  I propose a modular approach.  1 phone many external similar to
> this idea: http://www.icontrolpad.com/
>
> Additionally, there is a certain cool factor to having a single unit but
> many docking stations if done right, for example:
>
> Quick preview:  http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS3871478989.html
>
> Their overbearing website:  http://www.buglabs.net/products
>
> Buglabs is doing something really cool, but you gotta code in java and
> it doesn't fit into a pocket (well it does fit in a really big pocket).
>
> It's pretty clear Mokos core group of users are very demanding, and
> something like that would allow for everyone to be happy.
>
> However, why I really think this could be a really great approach for
> the moko is the 'Hey Cool!' factor.
>
> Can you picture the conversation when you meet up with  a buddy "hey
> whats that on your moko? oh it's my new gamepod.  COL!  can i try it
> on my moko?  sure  ... *CLICK*  ... here you go.   COOL!"
>
> It also reduces the dev costs for moko, it allows it to remain a
> smartphone and not move from that niche, reduces the number of formats
> that people will be demanding the moko be made in and will start to
> establish a hardware addon ecosystem beyond what is already being developed.
>
> What the moko manufacturers then can pull is a NIKE.  Instead of relying
> purely on sales of the moko, they can turn them selves into an R&D and
> marketing company and not only produce their own hardware if they want
> to, but also licence officially supported modules and addons to control
> quality and get a cut of each sale.
>
> Also when usb3 comes along you can offload all sorts of stuff to that,
> such as gfx co-porcessing if you want so all of a sudden you can get ati
> into the picture with their completely documented processors and really
> start something interesting.
>
>
> Just some brianstorming ...
>
> Rob
>

We haveto OUT THINK them, NOT OUTCOMPETE them.  The first one allows us 
to define the playing field, the second one leaves us catching up with 
the Joneses (note: this is what iSteve has done to quite a remarkable 
success - dell is left shoveling small margins while apple rakes in the 
cash on the high end).  What are your thoughts?

Rob



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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price - Things clear

[Robert Taylor]

Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
>
> not so simple. i think he business plan is changing because before this
> happened with the 1st iphone. people could buy without contract. it was 
> assumed
> that the phone lock would force people to get a contract anyway and apple bore
> the risk by losing out on their cut of the carrier's revenue (at&t). so they
> sold it at $399 or $499 etc. and din't get any money from at&t after that.
>
> now it changes with the 3g iphone. you must sign up when you buy. sure - you
> can now take that phone, unlock it, re-sell it, but you are stuck with a
> contract you must keep paying for... with no phone to use on that contract
> unless you buy another phone - outright. there will be contract termination
> clauses if you want to cancel then and this will help cover the subsidy - of
> not completely cover it and then some.
>
> sure - some (a very few) phones will somehow be smuggled from the factory or
> from shipments before they get to an apple or at&t or other carrier store, and
> some may be sold "under the counter" without contract - but i guarantee that
> that likely is a business losing proposition for anyone as they get a rebate
> once they sign you on a contract. selling without a contract will mean hey 
> have
> to jack up the price to cover the lost rebate money.
>
> as such - legal, legitimate and easy to get 3g iphones WITHOUT contract are
> going to be much more than $199.
>
>   
Precisely.  And if you want to quit your contract you will pay A FEE 
that will make your phone far more expensive than $600.

I wish people would stop saying nonsense.

It really doesn't matter if you unlock the phone or not, the person that 
bought it will end up paying the full retail price of it no matter what, 
quitting contract or not quitting contract.

To sign the contract is to agree to finance the retail cost of the v.2.0.

You will not be seeing 2.0 versions on ebay for $199 that are legit.  
Those that aren't legit are either stolen, knockoffs or refurbished, in 
which case who gives a damn, they are stolen, knockoffs or refurbished 
and not in competition.

The math simply doesn't add up fellas.


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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

[Robert Taylor]

ian douglas wrote:
> Robert Taylor wrote:
>   
>> Just compare equal things. 
>> 
>
> We'll have to agree to disagree on the definition of "equal".
>
> Hear me out:
>   
Hi! 

:-)  I really do mean well but I'm not dropping this.

You still have it wrong.

If the moko was subsidized out of pocket expense would be less because 
the moko would be cheaper.

It's that simple.

Stop trying to skew the numbers please.

Rob

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

[Robert Taylor]

Michael T. Dean wrote:
> On 06/10/2008 06:21 PM, ian douglas wrote:
>   
>> While I'm not trying to encourage any bitter feelings whatsoever, I'm 
>> curious how you calculated the iPhone costs twice as much as the 
>> Freerunner when you look at the bottom line of how many dollars you've 
>> spent after two years. Please elaborate on your calculations.
>> 
Are you serious?

Here, how about this calculation:  BUY THE NEW IPHONE SEPARATELY then 
add it to your monthly bill.  Thats how.

The moko isn't subsidized, if it were then you would be comparing the 
following:

$199 + contract vs $0 + plus contract.

Please stop comparing nonsensical situations.

Robert

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Re: No 3G for GTA03, 2G/EDGE only?

[Robert Taylor]

Andy Powell wrote:
>   
>> Do you live on planet earth or some magical fairy land where you snap
>> your fingers and you get everything instantly?
>> 
>
> Mmm... I'm trying to work out if you just being an arse or you have a 
> question 
> in there. I'd like you to point out where I said anything about getting 
> anything instantly, with a click of my fingers. 
>
>   
I do want to once again appologize for this.  I hit submit before 
engaging brain.

It's spillover from the frustration of people INSISTING on comparing 
subsidized vs unsubsidized phones.

Sorry.

Rob

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

[Robert Taylor]

ian douglas wrote:
>
> alking about what's subsidized and what's not. We're 
> comparing "how much money have I paid out of my pocket after two years" 
> to compare a 2-year contract requirement versus owning a Freerunner.
>
>   
Well yes we are.

If the moko was subsidized it would effectively be free. 

Just compare equal things. 

The moko isnt' available as part of a subsidized package and according 
to postings it will take at least a year to get there.

Just stop comparing unequal things.

If you want to compare the total cost, compare the total cost of buying 
the new iphone UNLOCKED at retail cost (you can't) plus the data package 
and THEN we can talk.

Stop talking nonsense please.

Rob

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price - Things clear

[Robert Taylor]

Jorge . wrote:
> Hello,
>
> This post is going further my expectations :) so, lets put the things in 
> order:
>   
Okay.
> 1) FreeRunner and its freedom is the best, so we dont need an argue about the 
> good reasons to buy one :)
>   
Right!
> 2) In countries where you have to sign a two year contract, the iPhone 3G 
> will be more expensive at the end, but this is not the situation of everyone.
>   
Not true, the iphone is subsidized the moko isn't.  If the moko was 
subsidized it would be free.  This is TRUE FOR EVERYONE.
> 3) Apple will say all time that you will have to sign a contract to get an 
> iPhone, but in the reality they do nothing to stop people unlocking phones 
> and selling them without AT&T contracts around the world (check ebay before 
> telling again you have to sign a contract!!!), because they get money for 
> that phones anyway. So I expect iPhones 3G being sold for $199 USD without 
> any contract around the world, and for most people does not matter if this is 
> legal or not. 
>   
Again, not true.  On the new Iphones, you HAVETO get a 2 year contract.  
If you decide to quit you will pay a fee that will total up greater than 
the $600 the phone is worth.

If you want to go ahead and throw away $600 bucks at the break of a 
contract and sell it on ebay go ahead.  Just stop posting nonsense.
> 4) FreeRunner is a product, and need sales to survive. I will buy a 
> Freerunner instead an iPhone because i want a free phone, but many people 
> would prefer to buy an unlocked-hacked-nocontract iPhone on ebay for $199 
> than an OpenMoko for $399. am I clear enough?
>   
Not  clear at all.  If you were there would be no thread.  If you want 
to compare apples to apples, compare a subsidized iphone to a subsized 
moko, or unsubsidized iphone to an unsubsidized moko.

There is NO POSSIBILITY of exception to this.  Just because a moko is 
not available as a subsidized device right now is irrelevant as its not 
available on the market.  More to the point the new iphone isn't 
available yet, just pricing.
> furthermore the freedom, there is a war for the smartphones market and a 
> freephone have to be competitive  in price, not only in quality and 
> philosophy. 
>   
This is only true if you do what you are insisting on doing, comparing 
things that are not of equal value.  While it is fine for consumers to 
be ignorant of these facts and actually think your argument is valid, 
it's not correct on this thread as you are clearly educated and 
understand the reality of the situation.

Just compare equal things and stop posting flawed arguments and there is 
no thread.
>
> Best wishes
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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

[Robert Taylor]

ian douglas wrote:
>
> Exactly.
>
> Whether you get the iPhone, a Freerunner, a Nokia, a Samsung, 
> whatever... you still need to pay for the cellular service.
>
> Yes, it's cheaper if you buy pay-as-you-go service, and yes, if you buy 
> the 'locked' iPhone (retail box from AT&T) you *must* buy into a contract.
>   
Sorry, to clarify.

To clear up my previous post you are comparing to different things:

A $600 SUBSIDIZED phone on a 2 year contract ($200 up front cost to 
subscriber) VS a $200 moko UNSUBSIDIZED phone PLUS a 2 year contract.

Of course they are bloody the same price up front, THE MOKO ISN'T 
SUBSIDIZED.

Please, compare equal things.

If you want to compare a subsidized iPhone then compare a subsidized 
moko which will be free with any reasonable access plan.

The moko is cheaper PERIOD and you won't be getting the new iPhones on 
ebay for 200 quid because YOU CAN'T BUY THEM WITHOUT A CONTRACT.

If you want to buy a $600 dollar subsidized phone, fine go ahead.  Why 
are you posting nonsense here?

Goddamn.  You guys make it really hard not to flame everyone on such 
simple calculations.

Rob

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

[Robert Taylor]

Jorge . wrote:
> No doubt, but you can buy unlocked iPhones on many places, including internet 
> and they dont cost $960
>  
>   
Thats ONLY because you can buy an iPhone right now WITHOUT a contract. 

You won't be getting the same phoen pricing with the new iPhone, that is 
guaranteed - to break a contract you will pay the penalty which will be 
greater than the iPhone is worth to begin with.

You aren't comparing apples to apples still.

- Rob

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Re: No 3G for GTA03, 2G/EDGE only?

[Robert Taylor]

Robert Taylor wrote:
> Do you live on planet earth or some magical fairy land where you snap
> your fingers and you get everything instantly?
>
> It sure sounds like you aren't interested in the "openness" of the moko 
> but more of a consumer device ... yes / no?
>
> I'm with you on the multitude of devices but sometimes you haveto try.  
> I think there may be far more creative ways to do this, say have one 
> phone with multiple addons so everyone is happy, but this too requires 
> one to try.
>
> Rob
>   
A quick apology for this post.

I don't normally flame - I was thinking it but I didn't self edit.

Sorry about that. 

It's just that the moko is such a wonderful opportunity for everyone, it 
bugs me that we are looking for reasons not to make it a success 
(granted negatives are as important to understand as the positives).

I think there is room for comparing the moko to whatever is on the 
marketplace, but only marginally. 

What we haveto do is OUT THINK the markeplace NOT keep up with the 
Joneses. 

- Robert

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

[Robert Taylor]

Jorge . wrote:
> Just look Ebay, amazon, etc...  you can buy unlocked iPhones for almost the 
> price they have with AT&T, in fact there is no AT&T in my country, an i could 
> buy one on many shops in the downtown (dont misunderstand me, i want the 
> FreeRunner!!).
>
> I am sure it will happen again with the iPhone 3G
> _
>   
And this will surely happen with the Moko too.  So what's your point?

Rob

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Re: No 3G for GTA03, 2G/EDGE only?

[Robert Taylor]

Andy Powell wrote:
>
> At some point we're going to start explaining to the folks at OM that we 
> can't 
> actually afford to buy every model they produce to help fund this 
> evolution...  I really don't want to have a collection of interesting but 
> ultimately useless devices - Let's face it the gta01 has issues the gta02 has 
> issues, perhaps it *is* time for a revolution...
>
>   
Let's face it, the iPhone has issues, Nokias have issues, Samsung has 
issues ... blah blah blah.

Do you live on planet earth or some magical fairy land where you snap 
your fingers and you get everything instantly?

It sure sounds like you aren't interested in the "openness" of the moko 
but more of a consumer device ... yes / no?

I'm with you on the multitude of devices but sometimes you haveto try.  
I think there may be far more creative ways to do this, say have one 
phone with multiple addons so everyone is happy, but this too requires 
one to try.

Rob

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 - product management, features & assumptions

[Robert Taylor]

Ken Young wrote:
>   
> This is especially true because if the GTA03 tries to be an iPhone
> clone, it will be at best a half-assed iPhone clone.   The hardware just
> isn't competitive with an iPhone's.   If the GTA03 has QVGA, will it have
> fast 3G networking?   No.   Will it have a state-of-the-art SoC?   No.
> That's not to say the GTA03 will be a bad device.   There's a lot
> of very exciting things you can do with the Freerunner hardware.   But
> it's just stupid to try to imitate the slick, largely useless, graphics
> goodies found on high-end video feature phones.   It is also a little
> alarming to hear that alpha blending is even being discussed by corporate
> OM personnel, when you consider the state of the current OM software stack.
>
> I don't think OM should target consumers who care about watching videos
> and having slick graphics at all.   They should go after uses of Palm
> and RIM products, who will be attracted to a rich ecosystem of useful
> 3rd party applications, and a phone geared towards letting professional
> people get some work done.   There are not nearly so many of those
> people as there are Apple fanboys, but they are willing to part with
> serious money to get the best phone for their work and hobbies.
>
> Think Differently!
>--
>
> Ken Young
>
>   
I second this as well.

I posted an email with some ideas / brainstorming about how we can take 
the phone idea and extend it with some lateral thinking.

There is A LOT of room to innovate and set the moko appart from the 
competition.

I think what the project needs to do is OUT THINK the competition, not 
COPY the competition.

Look, Microsoft cannot compete with the Apple brand ... why try and fail 
at this? 

Let's not follow behind iSteve (tm) and beast in Redmond.  I think we 
can take this mobile device thing and take it in a totally different 
direction and really set it apart.

Rob

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 - product management, features & assumptions

[Robert Taylor]

Ortwin Regel wrote:
>>
>> Reading these posts of the last few days it has just occurred to me
>> that it's not Carsten we should be beating up on here.
>> Who the heck asked for translucency and flashy animations?
>>
>> Management seem to be asking for this "alpha" bleeding rubbish, and
>> it seems to me that we users need to be telling management that we
>> don't care a heck for it.
>>
>> Sure, I know the iPhone does this now, but that doesn't mean Openmoko
>> has to do it. Do we really want Openmoko to be just another iPhone
>> clone? I know we see a fair number of posts on here about the iPhone,
>> but surely that's just a result of the current buzz - is UI animation
>> really a *necessity* in the long-term (or medium-term) future of the
>> mobile phone market?
>>
>> DISCLAIMER: I haven't used an iPhone, and I'm not terribly interested
>> in it. I do use a Mac as my main desktop, but that's not for the
>> animation, it's because I want something that "just works" when I sit
>> down at my computer. All us Mac fans found Expose to be a *massive*
>> UI improvement when it was released, but that's because virtual
>> desktops have always been rubbish on a Mac - with so many windows on
>> a single desktop *some* way of finding the bottom-most one was
>> required. The other day I was talking to a Linux developer who turned
>> off compiz on his desktop because it slowed down his productivity -
>> you simply don't need Expose if you have virtual desktops (which
>> admittedly are not suitable for my granny).
>>
>> It seems to me that, whilst the iPhone's animation may "wow" people,
>> what really distinguishes the iPhone is the same attention to UI
>> simplicity that Apple have always brought to their products. It does
>> a FEW things amazingly well, and that's where it separates itself
>> from the majority of phones on the market, none of which *quite* suit
>> the mass-market of users. Most users don't want to understand the
>> filesystem on their mobile phone, so Apple do away with it; Apple
>> have made it spectacularly easy (so much so that one must include in
>> the discussion the word "intuitive") to email a photo taken on the
>> camera or grabbed from a webpage, but they make it impossible to
>> email attachments under many other circumstances. The majority of
>> users don't want to copy & paste text on their mobile phones, so
>> Apple just got rid of it - other manufacturers "muddy up" the phones
>> they aim at girls and little old ladies (excuse me) by including the
>> ability to copy & paste; Apple have realised that only a minority of
>> business-phone users want or need that.
>>
>> The Neo & Freerunner have both been "smartphones", and that's surely
>> the interest that draws Linux users to this list. We want to be able
>> to shell into our unix servers, read PDFs and so on. The idea of an
>> open phone fires our imagination because we can integrate our
>> contacts from our LDAP servers and our diary with an iCal server, we
>> can do whatever the heck we want with Openmoko - we want to ADD
>> features, not remove them.
>>
>> In the context of that, does animation and transparency matter? Heck
>> no! We want a phone that displays text & icons on the screen, and as
>> long as the phone does that quick enough, we don't want you wasting
>> resources on trying to make the "experience" more flashy.
>>
>> There has been mention in these threads about the screen requirements
>> of smaller phones. I can only conclude from this that FIC are
>> planning to leverage their experience in building smartphone hardware
>> in order to break into to the larger market of small "girlie" and
>> "soccer mom" phones. Fine, but please don't do this at the expense of
>> your smartphone market. Honestly, I don't see how you can do this
>> well, without castrating your power-phone offerings.
>>
>> Parts of this conversation have focussed on making a "use case" for
>> VGA screens, but please, FIC management, make a use case for
>> transparency and flashy animations before having Carsten work on it.
>> Whilst I was writing an Apple spam arrived here, promoting today's
>> new iPhone announcement - I clicked on the link to iSteve's
>> presentation. The "enterprise" take-up from Fortune 500 companies was
>> surely impressive, but this leverage is because of Exchange-
>> compatibility and all the features that OS X gives to the iPhone for
>> free, not the flashy animations. This is where Openmoko can compete.
>>
>> I could write a lot, LOT more here,
>>
>> Stroller.
>>
>> 
I second this.

Rob

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Re: GTA - Two models? Was: GTA03: New case? Bigger screen!

[Robert Taylor]

Roland Häder wrote:
> My suggestion here is that OpenMoko may design another phone - if the market 
> asks for this:
>
> - An OpenMoko for younger people who need the gaming controls Ortwin is 
> mentioning as subject for removal.
>
> - Another OpenMoko for professionals/business/older people without the 
> gameing 
> controls but bigger screen. Maybe there is one available? Surely the software 
> shipped with this OpenMoko doesn't need include software which requires the 
> gaming controls.
>
> Any further ideas? :)
>
> Roland
>
>   
Yes.  I propose a modular approach.  1 phone many external similar to 
this idea: http://www.icontrolpad.com/

Additionally, there is a certain cool factor to having a single unit but 
many docking stations if done right, for example:

Quick preview:  http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS3871478989.html

Their overbearing website:  http://www.buglabs.net/products

Buglabs is doing something really cool, but you gotta code in java and 
it doesn't fit into a pocket (well it does fit in a really big pocket).

It's pretty clear Mokos core group of users are very demanding, and 
something like that would allow for everyone to be happy. 

However, why I really think this could be a really great approach for 
the moko is the 'Hey Cool!' factor.

Can you picture the conversation when you meet up with  a buddy "hey 
whats that on your moko? oh it's my new gamepod.  COL!  can i try it 
on my moko?  sure  ... *CLICK*  ... here you go.   COOL!"

It also reduces the dev costs for moko, it allows it to remain a 
smartphone and not move from that niche, reduces the number of formats 
that people will be demanding the moko be made in and will start to 
establish a hardware addon ecosystem beyond what is already being developed.

What the moko manufacturers then can pull is a NIKE.  Instead of relying 
purely on sales of the moko, they can turn them selves into an R&D and 
marketing company and not only produce their own hardware if they want 
to, but also licence officially supported modules and addons to control 
quality and get a cut of each sale.

Also when usb3 comes along you can offload all sorts of stuff to that, 
such as gfx co-porcessing if you want so all of a sudden you can get ati 
into the picture with their completely documented processors and really 
start something interesting.


Just some brianstorming ...

Rob

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

[Robert Taylor]

Ortwin Regel wrote:
> There are cheaper contracts if you don't get a phone with them in
> Germany. No idea what the situation in the US is. (It's probably
> godawful... :-/) Personally, I use a prepaid SIM card so I pay no
> monthly fees at all. Much cheaper for me than any contract. So for me
> the price advantage over an iPhone is very real.
>
> Ortwin
>
>   
Same here.  The iPhone is godawful expensive no matter how you slice it.

Rob

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

[Robert Taylor]

Jorge . wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> I dont pretend to start a flamewar of "FreeRunner vs iPhone". Everyone knows 
> their advantages and disadvantages and at least for me the main reason to buy 
> an openmoko is the freedom.
>
> But the new iPhone 3G price was announced, and the 8 Gigas version will cost 
> only $199 USD and it automatically makes the OpenMoko phone expensive, 
> because they have similar characteristics... this could discourage many 
> possible buyers, for purely economical reasons.
>
> I dont know if the FreeRunner price can be changed at this moment, but now 
> the FreeRunner is less competitive than the iPhone in terms of price.
>
>
> Best wishes
>
>
>
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No, it won't make the Moko more expensive.

You pay through the nose for it because you HAVETO sign up for a 2 year 
contract minimum.

The iPhone is AT LEAST twice as expensive as the Moko.

In other words, if the Moko came with a 2 year contract it would 
basically be free.

Please actually compare apples to apples.

- Rob

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Re: GTA03: New case? Bigger screen!

[Robert Taylor]

Ortwin Regel wrote:
> There has been all this fruitless talk about resolution. Well, what is
> really limiting the Neo's screen right now is not resolution
> (obviously), not speed (at least not on the GTA01, no idea how messed
> up the 02 situation is. I'd guess it's faster most of the time.) but
> size! If the GTA03 get's a new case design, please consider making the
> screen twice as big! Then we are finally at a size were
> two-thumb-typing starts to make sense and even people with bad eye
> sight can benefit from the high resolution (although I'm not convinced
> that second point is a positive one... <_<). The device wouldn't even
> have to be bigger for this because so much space was wasted in the
> original Neo design. The only handheld I have owned where the screen
> could be called big enough was the Tapwave Zodiac (RIP). If you shave
> off the gaming controls and make it a little thicker, you get a very
> decent phone.
> Also, I suggest concentrating more on the horizontal usage. For
> example, bring the stereo speakers back but add one below and one
> above the display so that they are left and right in landscape. You
> can get a pretty good stereo effect at that distance.
>
> Ortwin
>
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I second this post. 

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

[Robert Taylor]

Chris Wright wrote:
> 2008/6/9 Dotan Cohen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>   
>> 2008/6/9 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> 
>>> an 80x24 terminal is possible to make it readable @ qvga - if we allow
>>> scrolling. (and possible in landscape with an ultra-tiny 4-pixel wide font -
>>> possible (3 pixels for text, 1 for space). not very nice though.
>>>   
>> That is unusable. I'm sorry, I will not force myself to use that. I
>> will buy something else. Using the terminal on a remote machine with a
>> 4 pixels font is possibile like it is possible to eat cockroaches for
>> lunch everyday. There are some 'can get by' that I will not force
>> myself to get by with.
>> 
>
> The same with having to flip between right/left panes: it turns a
> half-second operation into a five-second one, and it taxes the brain
> at the same time.
>
> Moreover, this has to fit a keyboard along with anything else. The
> keyboard itself has very minimal needs in terms of resolution, but it
> steals about a third of the screen in portrait mode, more in landscape
> -- 640x480 is probably a bare minimum. You'd be getting 200 by 240
> usable space with qvga.
>
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The keyboard and and landscape mode are very important I think.

If you are going to be doing ssh of any king you will need a physical 
keyboard (bluetooth or a foldout of some kind in a future model) and you 
will need to be able rotate the screen to landscape mode to get decent 
resolution.

Now that qt is on x, landscape mode should be easily possible with 
xrandr so the last issue is a kb as in landscape mode its a certainty 
that you wont be able to use an onscreen kb with a stylus and ssh at the 
same time.

- Rob

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Re: Is case design changing for GTA03?

[Robert Taylor]

With a modular design like that, then you could have one device shipped 
out with many configurations possible.

You could then buy the external case for playing games, one with a 
keyboard, etc.

That would really set it appart.

So how about thinking of th 03 and onward in such a modular way?

Oh, my vote is for usb.

- Rob

Ortwin Regel wrote:
> Well, with Bluetooth it would have to have it's own power source (or
> be connected to one) so USB sounds most reasonable. It might even
> contain an USB hub and expose a number of full size USB ports, maybe
> including Y-cable functionality for charging while being host.
>
> Ortwin
>   


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Re: GTA03 case should incorporate stylus holder

[Robert Taylor]

Gabriel Ambuehl wrote:
> On Thursday 05 June 2008 16:38:46 Ron K. Jeffries wrote:
>   
>> Can the revised case for GTA03 *please* be designed
>> to hold a stylus?
>> 
Thinking about this a bit, drop the stylus and include a slide out (from 
underneath) a qwerty keyboard.

I have MANY MANY devices with a stylus including a FUJITSU U50XN and the 
stylus at best is a specific tool for a specific job.

Most users, most of the time, will spend thumb typing email, urls, ssh 
sessions, chat, etc.

As well, the typical use case is not one that is ONLY keyboard, ONLY 
finger pointer, ONLY stylus.  The typical use case will probably lean 
toward a strong and well designed thumb keyboard with the ability to 
quickly make selections either using a finger or a stylus or a similarly 
pointed object.

As an example, everyone I know texts (this includes crusty old timers) 
and those that can afford it are getting blackberries specifically for 
that purpose.

I don't see ANYONE clamoring for a stylus centric interface.

Just my two pesos.

- Rob

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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

[Robert Taylor]

Lally Singh wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 7:04 PM, Flemming Richter Mikkelsen
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>   
>> On 6/5/08, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> I agree with Michael. The only reason I want a Freerunner, is because
>> it is open.
>> 
>
> Open's great.  But Open+Powerful would also be nice.  I can't be the
> only one itching to use a GPU as a parallel coprocessor on this list.
> *sigh* so far it's only CUDA (AFAIK) that's even touching mobile
> devices.  Man I wish we had a handspring-type connector and some
> little modules for this kind of stuff.
>
>   
Well, why don't we FIRST help them make this a  smashing success of such 
proporitions that it will make manufacturers sit up and take notice?

Everyone has seen what the EEEPC has done, and now everyone and their 
dog now have a subnotebook with a linux distro on it in the span of 
what, 8months or so?  Hell, Acer of all companies just announced a 
majour Linux push on their laptops .. THE LAST company on the face of 
the planet I expected to do so.

AMD opened up the ATI gpu spec sheet recently - I have no idea if ATI 
has any inclination to get into making gpus for these sorts of devices, 
but if they did we potentially have one very real manufacturer that 
already drinks the coolaid that could potentially step in and fill the 
need if it can be demonstrated that the open platform is the way to go.

I appreciate what everyone is saying, but the success of the moko isn't 
only dependent on the manufacturer doing their best to get as powerfull 
a device out as possible, it depends on us early adopters having vision 
to see what this is, why it is SO IMPORTANT and help build buzz around 
it.  Mokos success is our success which is success for freedom - one 
device and one model at a time. 

I just think there is a danger to focusing on the negatives instead of 
positives here in terms of buzz - nothing is EVER perfect in any way so 
its a matter of seeing the glass as half full. 

- Rob

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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

[Robert Taylor]

You know, you are jokingly commenting about this ...

... but i'm fully setting mine up as a mame emulator.

I think that while initially moko is positioned for the technically 
experienced, I believe we have a device here that can trully do 
something unique - become a portable general computing and gaming device.

Why not?  Why can't we have a moko with a fold out keyboard that can be 
pulled out and replaced with a game pad?

This could seriously set the device apart and interest a lot of homebrew 
and small game shop developers because the playing field is so fair and 
level on this platform.

I think gaming on the moko should be considered a VERY serious 
proposition indeed.

- Robert

Markus Bossert wrote:
> Somehow I just remember how nice Tie Fighter looked on my computer 
> back in 1994 - or 1996? With a full fledged VGA resolution. And 
> gouraud shading.
>
> Mhmmm.
>
> If wine happens to run on the om? :-D
>
>


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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

[Robert Taylor]

Wow, I didn't know that.

Google does contribute to various open source projects, but they sure as 
hell don't seem to drink the punch.

Thanks for the info, that completely defines my view of Android.

And they use WINE to run android dev stuff on linux?  My god - that 
beggars the imagination.

- Rob

Rahul Joshi wrote:
> +1
> Just the kind of thing I want to hear.
>
> On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 9:41 PM, Robert Schuster <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > wrote:
>
> Hi.
>
> thomasg schrieb:
> > And for those who think android will bring hardware support for new
> > devices to the FOSS-world: forget about it.
> > Google doesn't care about open source if it's not used to save
> costs.
> > They didn't even release their own from-scratch-software as
> opensource -
> > hell, they use _wine_ to run it under linux.
> > Android isn't about freedom. It's about saving license fees, nothing
> > else (and they did some effort to make it as easy as possible
> for closed
> > source and vendors).
> Thats it.
>
> Regards
> Robert
>
>
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Re: possibility to purchase a moko before beginning of July

[Robert Taylor]

Steven Kurylo wrote:
>
> Not even two hours ago Steve sent an update on production status.
>   
Yup I'm aware of that.  This email is just contingency planning just in 
case they get a production run out in time, if not it's all good.
>   
>>  Will access be via distributors/resellers,
>> online store or some other method?
>>
>> Should I be getting in touch with local resellers and setting up some
>> sort of handoff plan so I can snag one even if it's just in the nick of
>> time for my flight?
>> 
>
> That completely depends on what country you're in.
>   
Cool, I'm in Vancouver Canada.  I guess considering Taiwan is a Pacific 
coast neighbour some might actually get shipped through our port.  For 
Canadians, will it make more sense to order online or look for a 
distributor?

- Robert

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Re: possibility to purchase a moko before beginning of July

[Robert Taylor]

Hi.

No biggie on the timing here guys,  no pressure at all.  I'm just happy 
to have a free device finally.

Just out of curiosity, I'm going on Vacation in July and I was wondering 
about how to snag one.  Will access be via distributors/resellers, 
online store or some other method?

Should I be getting in touch with local resellers and setting up some 
sort of handoff plan so I can snag one even if it's just in the nick of 
time for my flight?

It would totally rock to have one to muck around on during holidays.

Thoughts or  brainstorms?

- Rob

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Re: new iphone

[Robert Taylor]

Christian Benke wrote:

Oh, and not to forget the choice - people are not homogenized - "We
have created the software this way and this is the right way, you
can't dislike it, obey" doesn't happen, hundreds of people create and
recreate the software to reflect their individual choice and it's much
more likely that one of the choices also comes close to your needs(I
love fluxbox for instance). And there is still the option to change it
your way if you know how.
After I posted I thought about this.  And yes indeed, you are correct.  
I shouldn't begrudge the choice no matter what it is.


Absolutely, you are correct about that.

- Rob

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Re: new iphone

[Robert Taylor]

On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 2:21 AM, Christian Benke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:

Good evening!

So who of you is thinking about buying the new iphone instead of an
openmoko in case the technical specs really improve(3G, better
resolution)?

If you are willing to exchange your freedom for a few beads, then you 
don't deserve freedom.


Remember, choices today will reap you rewards tomorrow.

In a strange way it's like the allegory in the Matrix trilogy - the jail 
is beautiful, comfortable and warm, freedom is harsh, unforgiving and cold.


But in the end, a jail is still a jail and a slave is still a slave.

This ultimately is the choice you must make - stand with the free and 
die trying or enjoy your jail and die a slave.



Choose.


Note: Yes, it's a bit melodramatic on the surface, but I think we can 
all start to feel the undertow of a lot of political, social and 
philosophical movements once again under way globally.  I have this 
uneasy feeling that our choices around freedom just may have much more 
significant implications that we realize right now.


Apologies for bringing politics into essentially technological forum.

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Re: Linux PDA with wifi?

[Robert Taylor]

Mike, why not consider using the moko smartphone as a pda?

PDA's aren't that much more powerful than the moko thus you won't really 
be running anything but what you run on the smartphone anyway, plus they 
usually have few connectivity routes, extremely short battery lifespans 
and generally they don't fit in your pocket.


Plus the moko will probably morph to include various smartphone form 
factors so that  you will not just get a smartphone but have access to a 
form factor with maybe a foldout thumb keyboard even?


I would put my bets on the moko as a pda killer personally.

- Rob



Mike wrote:


If I wanted a PDA the runs linux and has wifi, and gets good battery 
life, any suggestions?


And can I run openmoko on it to develop apps, or does openmoko linux 
need to be on the neo/freerunner?


thanks



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Re: Freerunner v. HTC v. ....

[Robert Taylor]

Steven Le Roux wrote:


and we are talking about a "phone"... so the camera... is clearly NOT 
a priority for a first phone;..


fortunately there is no keyboard ;) ! or where's the point with the 
touchscreen...




--
Steven Le Roux
Jabber-ID : [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

I should also add that we should be looking at the form factor 
separately from the hardware and software platforms. 

When the time is right, different form factors should be available so 
uses can choose one that suits them.


- Robert

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Re: Freerunner v. HTC v. ....

[Robert Taylor]

Steven Le Roux wrote:



On Sat, May 24, 2008 at 1:39 PM, Federico Lorenzi <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> wrote:


On Sat, May 24, 2008 at 12:45 PM, Al Johnson
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> Comparing with the FreeRunner hardware wiki page:
> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_FreeRunner_GTA02_Hardware
>
> Comms: Freerunner only has GSM/GPRS triband.
> Connectivity: WiFi equal, Freerunner has Bluetooth 2.1 with EDR
> CPU: same core and clock
> Camera: Freerunner doesn't have one
> Memory: Freerunner has double the RAM and double the ROM
> Memory card: Equal
> Screen: same size, Freerunner is 480x640 but has no keyboard.
> Weight: Similar? Freerunner 110g without battery, battery weight
not quoted.
> Size: Similar, but different shape. Freerunner is 120.7 x 62 x
18.5 mm
> Battery: Freerunner has 1200mAh
>
> USB host mode: only Freerunner. I don't know of another phone
that has this.
> GPS: only Freerunner
>
> media decode/3D: both have the hardware and neither do much with
it yet.
> Openmoko have been open about exactly what the capabilities are,
while HTC
> were rather evasive when customers started questioning the media
performance.
> There are other phones that are better in this area.
You left out the ability to connect to a phone that has HSDPA / 3g (in
my case the Nokia E51) via Bluetooth or USB, and use it as a modem :)

Cheers,
Federico


and we are talking about a "phone"... so the camera... is clearly NOT 
a priority for a first phone;..


fortunately there is no keyboard ;) ! or where's the point with the 
touchscreen...




--
Steven Le Roux
Jabber-ID : [EMAIL PROTECTED] 


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If you can type as fast on a touch screen as I can on a properly sized 
thumb keyboard,  you are a magician.


A keyboard is an absolute must of anyone seriously wanting to have text 
input.


Touch screens are only feasable for single click/move/drag types of 
problem domains ... say for example scrolling through a picture gallery.


- Robert

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Re: Freerunner v. HTC v. ....

[Robert Taylor]

Ajit Natarajan wrote:
It would be great if someone who has used or is otherwise aware of the 
feature sets of the Freerunner, HTC, and other smart phones to compare 
and contrast these.


I was especially worried about a posting a day or two ago saying that 
the Freerunner is 1990s era hardware.  I would like to know what makes 
the hardware 1990s era.


Thanks.

Ajit

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Nothing.

People making such statements are retards and deserve to be ignored.

It's that simple.

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Re: QT/GTK madness

[Robert Taylor]

elektrolott wrote:

I really don't understand you people.
Instead of being happy that FIC sells their phones ..

I just want to second this post and second Ivo Anjo's post as well.

My thanks to all the Moko project folks, FIC and Trolltech as well.

You guys are putting up with unwarranted criticism, just hunker down and
keep up the good work.  I know where I'm spending my money.  You can't
buy freedom --- oh wait, YOU CAN NOW!

Hey, on a side note, here is an inspiring link to a site from the
#htc-linux channel on freenode - they hack linux onto HTC phones:

http://handhelds.org/moin/moin.cgi/HTC_2dPhones

They have managed to some great work getting linux on those WINCE
devices.  HTC really has some daring and fun form factors there ...
hopefully it gets us thinking about what is possible and how far we can
take the project in terms of the form factor designs.  The really great
thing about the moko is that it is a hardware and software platform and
we should be able to morph it to do all sorts of interesting things.

If anyone at FIC or the OpenMoko project is listening, devices with a
foldout keyboard would really be handy - perhaps in a future version
(we'd love to kick blackberries to the curb, my god do the suck donkey
balls)?  For the time being I'll probably try to get my hands on a
Universal HTC device and see if I can fit/maim the guts of a Freerunner
into one :)

I suspect the biggest challenge might be the keyboard on that thing, the
rest will meet MR.DUCTTAPE.

- Robert


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