Re: IRC conversation with Mirko from the Paroli team
On Sat, 14 Mar 2009 01:04:25 -0400 Jeremy McNaughton said: > With Paroli in particular I can't see it being such a big deal to size > the window so it can be used with Illume. At least for right now, > until more time can be dedicated to whatever mysterious way we'll > eventually use to switch back and forth can be implemented. actually if they wanted to stay fullscreen - they could. just reauest fullscreen mode and it will be.. fullscreen - wm will just be in the background. as long as they provide some way in paroli to: 1. exit paroli (quit) and/or 2. self-iconify (minimize) (which basically will take you back to previous app/home). its that simple. you can have both then. when in paroli - it's fullscreen like a "game" - takes over the ui. when flipped out of it to other x apps, wm, launcher etc. - it just lurks in the bg as a process with a hidden window you can flip to by: 1. selecting from applist 2. flip forward/back by app flippers or 3. select "paroli" icon and if the .desktop file and window have all the right properties - e will happily just flip to the paroli window instantly without running it again. this is all perfectly possible and in fact dead simple to do. it just requires providing the #1 and/or #2 buttons/menus as above. (nb - power button is lost when in illume/e - by default its a keybinding for e for the "sys" popup with can suspend/power off and even close the current window or "go home" as kind of a universal "my fullscreen app has just hung and locked my ui - please rescue me!" button. as such if paroli wants to rely on that feature of a wm (lets say you used some other wm like matchbox etc. - it may not have this thus #1 and/or #2 above), then it even has to do NOTHING but open its window AND request fullscreen on start (trivial 1 more function call if using EFL), and provide the .desktop file so selecting the paroli icon flips to paroli (and the right properites - maybe 1 or 2 more function calls here). not telling anyone what to do - just saying that it is possible in this case to have your cake, and eat it too - with incredibly trivial/little effort. it's a little surprising that it wasn't done this way from the start just to retain portability and support for everything else at the same time. :) -- - Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: IRC conversation with Mirko from the Paroli team
Hey, Mirko, I'm sorry if I came across overly frustrated or harsh. I'm really excited about Paroli. I've read the startup.pdf and I check the website regularly for updates. I just want to know more. Maybe there's some notes from a meeting, plans, brainstorm notes or something that's not on the site? I don't know, and I realize it's probably not up to you. But for me as a novice developer who's trying to learn, the more I can read the better. So yeah, one day you might get patches from me. First I'm just trying to learn this stuff, and my feedback to the company is that more info (about Paroli in particular) would be appreciated. Forgive my lack of patience, Jeremy On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 3:00 AM, Mirko Lindner wrote: > Hej, > > I tried to stay out of this thread as the discussion drifted away from > paroli towards general discussion about OM's behavior, which is not > controlled by me, but it seems to me that here 2 things are mixed that > simply are unrelated and I am being judged based on a conversation log(!) > and deemed unfriendly and what not. > > Jeremy McNaughton wrote: >> >> I've got to agree that some more communication about Paroli would be a >> good thing. > > Ok, valid point. > >> After all, what was the point of selling the phones so early in the >> development cycle in the first place? Right on the main page of the >> wiki it says: "Openmoko is a project driven by a community of >> passionate and intelligent volunteers. If you have the ability, please >> contribute to our cause. Openmoko's ambitions far exceed the resources >> available." > > What does that have to do with paroli? > >> >> It can't be both ways. If Openmoko wants the community to help and/or >> develop for projects like Paroli, they need to be responsive when >> their volunteers ask for more information. > > If I get asked about info regarding paroli, its code or what we are trying > to achieve I am all in. But in this case I was not asked about any specifics > but Paul asked about the "hidden" department which controls all of OM and I > found his question demeaning and out of place, let alone his wording. > >> >> With Paroli in particular I can't see it being such a big deal to size >> the window so it can be used with Illume. At least for right now, >> until more time can be dedicated to whatever mysterious way we'll >> eventually use to switch back and forth can be implemented. >> > > Sorry to be a bit rough here, but:Have you looked at the code? Do you know > what actually is the problem? If so why don't you simply send a patch? Or > ask for commit rights? > > What bugs me here is that I am being pushed around for a) things that are > not related to paroli and b) based on your assumptions. > >> And while I don't know anything about the previous conversations >> between Mirko and Paul, I really hope that I never get dealt with that >> way by anyone with an openmoko.com email account. Nobody's perfect >> and I don't want to single Mirko out, but the conversation in the >> above IRC logs are less than stellar. Not a great way to deal with >> volunteers whose effort you're hoping to benefit from, especially when >> those volunteers are also paying customers. > > Paul and I have a short but drastic history of communication and I can > assure you that is not my normal tone. I am not a fan of people going around > a blaming so if that happens I either don't respond or become defensive, I > think that is normal behavior. > > In regards to the "anyone with an openmoko.com email account" I believe that > the underpinning idea, which is we have to always suck up what ever we get > thrown at us and smile, nod and be happy about it, is simply wrong. This is > a community project and "volunteers whose effort I am [you're] hoping to > benefit from" of course are not met with disrespect and rudeness. I spend > much time talking and chatting to explain how stuff works and why we do it. > And so far you are the first person to suggest I am rude, from a secondary > source. > > I am willing to put up with a lot because I know of the companies history > and all that and I have done so. However there is a point when I simply have > to say, Ok, suffered enough, now I think demanding fair treatment both ways > is what is needed. > > So to put it very simple, the way a question is asked determines the way I > answer. If I feel mistreated I will certainly not play happy, because I am > doing my best to drive this forward and and also spend my free time on this > project (yes I work much more than my official hours) so I do not see why I > should not react as anyone else would. > >> >> In general however I think Openmoko is starting to do better with >> communication, Paroli being a notable exception. > > Again I think you are going over the top and put negative energy that you > have towards the company as a whole towards a single project that happens to > come your way. Sorry to be so blunt but I see this mail as an attack on th
Re: IRC conversation with Mirko from the Paroli team
Ive read this thread and I'm still wondering, what seems to be the problem? Paroli is being written, it has it's own site with news and important info. Source code is available. So why developers should spend any more time just to feed curiosity? They have better things to do, like actual coding. Leonti ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: IRC conversation with Mirko from the Paroli team
Hej, I tried to stay out of this thread as the discussion drifted away from paroli towards general discussion about OM's behavior, which is not controlled by me, but it seems to me that here 2 things are mixed that simply are unrelated and I am being judged based on a conversation log(!) and deemed unfriendly and what not. Jeremy McNaughton wrote: > I've got to agree that some more communication about Paroli would be a > good thing. Ok, valid point. > After all, what was the point of selling the phones so early in the > development cycle in the first place? Right on the main page of the > wiki it says: "Openmoko is a project driven by a community of > passionate and intelligent volunteers. If you have the ability, please > contribute to our cause. Openmoko's ambitions far exceed the resources > available." What does that have to do with paroli? > > It can't be both ways. If Openmoko wants the community to help and/or > develop for projects like Paroli, they need to be responsive when > their volunteers ask for more information. If I get asked about info regarding paroli, its code or what we are trying to achieve I am all in. But in this case I was not asked about any specifics but Paul asked about the "hidden" department which controls all of OM and I found his question demeaning and out of place, let alone his wording. > > With Paroli in particular I can't see it being such a big deal to size > the window so it can be used with Illume. At least for right now, > until more time can be dedicated to whatever mysterious way we'll > eventually use to switch back and forth can be implemented. > Sorry to be a bit rough here, but:Have you looked at the code? Do you know what actually is the problem? If so why don't you simply send a patch? Or ask for commit rights? What bugs me here is that I am being pushed around for a) things that are not related to paroli and b) based on your assumptions. > And while I don't know anything about the previous conversations > between Mirko and Paul, I really hope that I never get dealt with that > way by anyone with an openmoko.com email account. Nobody's perfect > and I don't want to single Mirko out, but the conversation in the > above IRC logs are less than stellar. Not a great way to deal with > volunteers whose effort you're hoping to benefit from, especially when > those volunteers are also paying customers. Paul and I have a short but drastic history of communication and I can assure you that is not my normal tone. I am not a fan of people going around a blaming so if that happens I either don't respond or become defensive, I think that is normal behavior. In regards to the "anyone with an openmoko.com email account" I believe that the underpinning idea, which is we have to always suck up what ever we get thrown at us and smile, nod and be happy about it, is simply wrong. This is a community project and "volunteers whose effort I am [you're] hoping to benefit from" of course are not met with disrespect and rudeness. I spend much time talking and chatting to explain how stuff works and why we do it. And so far you are the first person to suggest I am rude, from a secondary source. I am willing to put up with a lot because I know of the companies history and all that and I have done so. However there is a point when I simply have to say, Ok, suffered enough, now I think demanding fair treatment both ways is what is needed. So to put it very simple, the way a question is asked determines the way I answer. If I feel mistreated I will certainly not play happy, because I am doing my best to drive this forward and and also spend my free time on this project (yes I work much more than my official hours) so I do not see why I should not react as anyone else would. > > In general however I think Openmoko is starting to do better with > communication, Paroli being a notable exception. Again I think you are going over the top and put negative energy that you have towards the company as a whole towards a single project that happens to come your way. Sorry to be so blunt but I see this mail as an attack on the work I have done so far and this attack is founded on false-grounds. I agree with one point I could communicate more, but then also give me a point, there could be more patches and less complainging about unimplemented functions. /mirko ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: IRC conversation with Mirko from the Paroli team
On Mar 13, 2009, at 22:04 , Jeremy McNaughton wrote: [...] > > And while I don't know anything about the previous conversations > between Mirko and Paul, I really hope that I never get dealt with that > way by anyone with an openmoko.com email account. Nobody's perfect > and I don't want to single Mirko out, but the conversation in the > above IRC logs are less than stellar. I would take some of that as possibly a language issue more than outright rudeness or lack of social skills, esp. when working on a project that involves people from many different countries for whom this might be a second or third language. It's easy to miss or not know subtleties of social cues or polite forms if you're not a native speaker/writer. ---Steve ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: IRC conversation with Mirko from the Paroli team
Hi, Jeremy McNaughton writes: > And while I don't know anything about the previous conversations > between Mirko and Paul, I really hope that I never get dealt with that > way by anyone with an openmoko.com email account. Jeremy, i can assure you that Mirko treated me fairly and i posted the log to share information, not emotions. Yes, i didn't exactly like his way of answering questions, but my way of asking is probably not really appropriate either; i guess that's ok, not all people are using the same language and compatible exchange protocols. -- Be free, use free (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html) software! mailto:fercer...@gmail.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: IRC conversation with Mirko from the Paroli team
I've got to agree that some more communication about Paroli would be a good thing. Arne's got it exactly right by saying "to be 'open to the community' is at the core of their business model -- and, what's more, it accounts for a huge part of their customer base." After all, what was the point of selling the phones so early in the development cycle in the first place? Right on the main page of the wiki it says: "Openmoko is a project driven by a community of passionate and intelligent volunteers. If you have the ability, please contribute to our cause. Openmoko's ambitions far exceed the resources available." It can't be both ways. If Openmoko wants the community to help and/or develop for projects like Paroli, they need to be responsive when their volunteers ask for more information. With Paroli in particular I can't see it being such a big deal to size the window so it can be used with Illume. At least for right now, until more time can be dedicated to whatever mysterious way we'll eventually use to switch back and forth can be implemented. And while I don't know anything about the previous conversations between Mirko and Paul, I really hope that I never get dealt with that way by anyone with an openmoko.com email account. Nobody's perfect and I don't want to single Mirko out, but the conversation in the above IRC logs are less than stellar. Not a great way to deal with volunteers whose effort you're hoping to benefit from, especially when those volunteers are also paying customers. In general however I think Openmoko is starting to do better with communication, Paroli being a notable exception. I'm still very excited about the direction the platform is taking. FSO is a very good idea, and one day Openmoko phones will kick ass (as phones! :) Jeremy McNaughton On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 2:00 PM, Eldon Koyle wrote: > On Mar 13 21:30+1300, Robin Paulson wrote: > >> true, but they can't have it both ways. if they say, 'we want input >> from the community' on something or other, the likelihood of >> disagreement/flames/arguments etc. goes up. then they either can > > > They don't ask for input from the community on everything, though. I > was merely trying to point out that there shouldn't be any expectation > of them telling 'the community' what they are going to do before they do > anything. Obviously they should still communicate with any significant > contributors about anything they are doing that will affect said > contributors -- but there is no reason to try to communicate it to the > whole community; and it would be ridiculous to expect all of these > communications to be public. > > -- > Eldon Koyle > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: IRC conversation with Mirko from the Paroli team
On Mar 13 21:30+1300, Robin Paulson wrote: > true, but they can't have it both ways. if they say, 'we want input > from the community' on something or other, the likelihood of > disagreement/flames/arguments etc. goes up. then they either can They don't ask for input from the community on everything, though. I was merely trying to point out that there shouldn't be any expectation of them telling 'the community' what they are going to do before they do anything. Obviously they should still communicate with any significant contributors about anything they are doing that will affect said contributors -- but there is no reason to try to communicate it to the whole community; and it would be ridiculous to expect all of these communications to be public. -- Eldon Koyle ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: IRC conversation with Mirko from the Paroli team
> Openmoko (the company) doesn't have any responsibility to be open to the > community. to be "open to the community" is at the core of their business model -- and, what's more, it accounts for a huge part of their customer base. > Look at what happens every time a hardware-related (ie. gta03) post > occurs on this list: there is a very strong split between people who > want mutually-exclusive features, followed by a lot of arguing about > which is better, when it really comes down to a matter of preference > (the resistive vs. capacitive argument reminds me a lot of the > stereotypical vim vs. emacs comparison which is guaranteed to start a > flamewar on any LUG mailing list). well, how are they (om) supposed to know, what their customers want? and you certainly cannot stop people from arguing about specific features -- even users of totally closed hardware do. question is: how much has the discussion in the community to influence actual decisions inside openmoko. so far, i didn't see anyone being adamant that his/her demands have to be accepted by om. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: IRC conversation with Mirko from the Paroli team
2009/3/13 Eldon Koyle : > contributors). They have goals they are trying to accomplish -- like > finally getting a usable software stack for a phone. They also have to > make money somewhere. i think you got those the wrong way round > If by saving the effort of communicating with everyone who thinks it > should be their business is allowing them to spend more time making a > usable set of applications, more power to them. They are still giving > you the source, and if you don't like something I'm sure patches are quite > welcome. true, but they can't have it both ways. if they say, 'we want input from the community' on something or other, the likelihood of disagreement/flames/arguments etc. goes up. then they either can ignore them, which isn't great when they're asking people for help - people will soon stop helping if they're being ignored at critical points - or follow up on all the arguments, and continue with the 'we listen to the community' mantra. everything has a cost ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: IRC conversation with Mirko from the Paroli team
George Brooke writes: > On Thursday 12 March 2009 20:51:47 Eldon Koyle wrote: >> ... > Thank you very much someone needed to say something along those lines. Would you mind to share your comments on TRIsoft letter as well? -- Be free, use free (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html) software! mailto:fercer...@gmail.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: IRC conversation with Mirko from the Paroli team
On Thursday 12 March 2009 20:51:47 Eldon Koyle wrote: > > Openmoko (the company) doesn't have any responsibility to be open to the > community. I personally do appreciate when they are, but I can see why > they might want to be a little more closed. I think a lot of time is > spent arguing with community members over things that aren't extremely > important in the long-term. > > When it comes right down to it, there is no reason for them to tell us > everything that is going on. Let them make their design decisions so > that they can make better use of their time in accomplishing their > goals, whatever they may be. Chances are you won't agree with some of > their design goals. They can't please everyone, so they shouldn't try > to. The beauty of open source is that you can change it however you > want. If you disagree strongly enough, you make a fork or write > something yourself. > > Companies involved in open source projects aren't involved solely for > the sake of open source (although they are usually very good > contributors). They have goals they are trying to accomplish -- like > finally getting a usable software stack for a phone. They also have to > make money somewhere. > > If by saving the effort of communicating with everyone who thinks it > should be their business is allowing them to spend more time making a > usable set of applications, more power to them. They are still giving > you the source, and if you don't like something I'm sure patches are quite > welcome. > > Look at what happens every time a hardware-related (ie. gta03) post > occurs on this list: there is a very strong split between people who > want mutually-exclusive features, followed by a lot of arguing about > which is better, when it really comes down to a matter of preference > (the resistive vs. capacitive argument reminds me a lot of the > stereotypical vim vs. emacs comparison which is guaranteed to start a > flamewar on any LUG mailing list). > > Thank you very much someone needed to say something along those lines. solar.george signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: IRC conversation with Mirko from the Paroli team
Openmoko (the company) doesn't have any responsibility to be open to the community. I personally do appreciate when they are, but I can see why they might want to be a little more closed. I think a lot of time is spent arguing with community members over things that aren't extremely important in the long-term. When it comes right down to it, there is no reason for them to tell us everything that is going on. Let them make their design decisions so that they can make better use of their time in accomplishing their goals, whatever they may be. Chances are you won't agree with some of their design goals. They can't please everyone, so they shouldn't try to. The beauty of open source is that you can change it however you want. If you disagree strongly enough, you make a fork or write something yourself. Companies involved in open source projects aren't involved solely for the sake of open source (although they are usually very good contributors). They have goals they are trying to accomplish -- like finally getting a usable software stack for a phone. They also have to make money somewhere. If by saving the effort of communicating with everyone who thinks it should be their business is allowing them to spend more time making a usable set of applications, more power to them. They are still giving you the source, and if you don't like something I'm sure patches are quite welcome. Look at what happens every time a hardware-related (ie. gta03) post occurs on this list: there is a very strong split between people who want mutually-exclusive features, followed by a lot of arguing about which is better, when it really comes down to a matter of preference (the resistive vs. capacitive argument reminds me a lot of the stereotypical vim vs. emacs comparison which is guaranteed to start a flamewar on any LUG mailing list). -- Eldon Koyle ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
IRC conversation with Mirko from the Paroli team
09-03-2009 10:53:32 > PaulFert`: Mirko-paroli: Hey :) Please don't
consider my questions or messages as a personal offence. Please. It's
just that you're keeping silence on the issues that i consider to be
of great importance... You're the frontman of the Paroli project and
people are asking you personally about UI design guidelines, targets
etc. Imho it's somehow inappropriate to leave all these questions
(excluding my rants) unanswered.
09-03-2009 10:55:47 < Mirko-paroli:
http://www.paroli-project.org/about-paroli/
09-03-2009 10:55:53 < Mirko-paroli: answers any questions about UI
design
09-03-2009 10:55:57 < Mirko-paroli: and "guidelines"
09-03-2009 11:11:22 > PaulFert`: Mirko-paroli: greate writeup on the
ideas behind application design goals and techniques. But nothing
about the actual UI you're going to present your users soon (no ui
design mockups, no ui guidelines, i don't see anything like that). You
saw the complaints on the community ML, don't you understand why those
people are complaining? Moreover, you still don't answer a thing about
"the ui design department". If they're part of the project, ...
09-03-2009 11:11:28 > PaulFert`: ... the community is supposed to know
them, don't you agree?
09-03-2009 11:12:07 < Mirko-paroli:
http://www.paroli-project.org/running-paroli/launcher/
09-03-2009 11:12:12 < Mirko-paroli: and click your way through the
apps
09-03-2009 11:12:18 < Mirko-paroli: all with "mockups"
09-03-2009 11:17:35 > PaulFert`: Mirko-paroli: Looks like the list
scrolling will be done by swipes... Are you sure it's a good idea for
a resistive touchscreen operated by finger? But you know, the most
controversial thing is the "pseudo-fullscreen" (which is technically
not fullscreen) mode. Integration aside, is the GUI resizable? If yes,
then why not run it under the control of a WM? Why not make it easy
switchable?
09-03-2009 11:18:14 < Mirko-paroli: send a patch I'll apply it
09-03-2009 11:18:29 < Mirko-paroli: my day only has so many hours
09-03-2009 11:18:35 < Mirko-paroli: and I have to focus on something
09-03-2009 11:18:42 < Mirko-paroli: right now resizing etc is not my
focus
09-03-2009 11:19:44 > PaulFert`: Mirko-paroli: fair enough. Can you
answer the last question about the "design department" please?
09-03-2009 11:20:15 < Mirko-paroli: everyone who is working on paroli
influences the ui and the design
09-03-2009 11:20:25 < Mirko-paroli: so if you or anyone else wants to
have a say
09-03-2009 11:20:36 < Mirko-paroli: do it as in any other OS project
09-03-2009 11:20:38 < Mirko-paroli: join it
09-03-2009 11:20:45 < Mirko-paroli: earn credit and then use it
09-03-2009 11:23:57 > PaulFert`: Mirko-paroli: to me as the community
member it seems like there exist some hidden force that can influence
on UI design in non-obvious non-predictable ways. And you don't seem
to deny it... Either we talk different languages or i can't formulate
questions or you can't answer. :(
09-03-2009 11:24:58 < Mirko-paroli: as I told you last time we talked,
questions end in '?' and imho do not contain subtle accusations
09-03-2009 11:26:23 > PaulFert`: Mirko-paroli: Does the force that is
hidden to the community and can influence ui design decisions ("the OM
ui design department") exist? (now is that better?)
09-03-2009 11:27:23 < Mirko-paroli: yes as every other company we also
have a ui department, but seen that you know of it it can't be really
hidden, right?
09-03-2009 11:29:50 > PaulFert`: Mirko-paroli: I've never seen any
letter in the public mailing list from them, nor the list of people
(with their names and e-mails) involved. I call it "hidden", i think
that corresponds to the dictionary definition.
09-03-2009 11:31:31 < Mirko-paroli: ok if you wanna call that hidden
my view is blurred in that sense
09-03-2009 11:31:38 < Mirko-paroli: what's your point?
09-03-2009 11:32:36 > PaulFert`: Mirko-paroli: every force that has an
influence on the project must act in a community-transparent way. Is
it the case now?
09-03-2009 11:33:15 < Mirko-paroli: why does every force have to act
in a "community-transparent way"
09-03-2009 11:33:17 < Mirko-paroli: ?
09-03-2009 11:33:36 < Mirko-paroli: I will not get my gf to write
mails whenever she is mad at me and publicize them
09-03-2009 11:33:43 < Mirko-paroli: but it is a force that influences
it
09-03-2009 11:33:46 < Mirko-paroli: one among many
09-03-2009 11:36:50 > PaulFert`: Mirko-paroli: fair point. But i guess
"the ui design department" doesn't influence you in the same way as
your gf... Well, i think that's enough. I've got the answers to my
questions. Would you mind if i post the script to the community
mailing list?
09-03-2009 11:40:32 < Mirko-paroli: actually not really as I am not
certain that you won't misrepresent my answers, sorry to have to say
that
09-03-2009 11:41:21 > PaulFert`: Mirko-paroli: I'd like to send the
transcript unaltered, so every sane person will intepret it the right
way.
09-03-2009 11:41:5
