To: computer-go
Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 12:29 AM
Subject: Re: [computer-go] Re: Dynamic komi in commercial programs
Maybe we should go back to the question which dynamic komi is an attempt to
solve: how to obtain better discrimination when every move seems to be
clustered near
thaoeuns at gmail.com wrote:
> So changing the komi doesn't actually improve your confidence
> interval. If (as Darren said) the win percentage is a crude
> estimate of the final score, then changing komi would do nothing
> to change the results one got (and at extremes biases it badly).
> Movin
gt; To: computer-go
> Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 3:17:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [computer-go] Re: Dynamic komi in commercial programs
>
> Dynamic komi in a sense means that the bot is deluding itself on purpose.
> Obviously this is dangerous medicine, a kind of magic mushroom.
> S
eves and appoint the great ones to public office.” --
Aesop
From: Stefan Kaitschick
To: computer-go
Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 3:17:38 PM
Subject: Re: [computer-go] Re: Dynamic komi in commercial programs
Dynamic komi in a sense means that the bot is deludi
- Original Message -
From: "Dave Dyer"
To: "computer-go"
Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 10:54 PM
Subject: [computer-go] Re: Dynamic komi in commercial programs
If you are in a lost position, "good play" is play that maximizes
the probability o
On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 4:07 AM, "Ingo Althöfer" <3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de>wrote:
> Darren Cook wrote:
> > Ingo's suggestion (of two buttons to increment/decrement komi by one
> > point) was to make it easy for strong humans to test out the idea for us.
>
> Don Dailey wrote:
> > There is no question t
Darren Cook wrote:
> Ingo's suggestion (of two buttons to increment/decrement komi by one
> point) was to make it easy for strong humans to test out the idea for us.
Don Dailey wrote:
> There is no question that if you provide a button to push, all kinds
> of positions will appear where this ide
ken regan has done some modeling the complexity of chess positions,
and perhaps more interestingly, the modeling of the ability of a human
player based upon how he or she makes move choices -- this only works
because a computer player can vastly outplay a human player (and can
act a bit like an ora
Is it possible to design metrics for "complexity" of positions? An opponent
model could make use of that information; there are positions which some
players will totally fail to grok.
Double-digit kyu players are weak on life-and-death, ko, and seki. Some
otherwise strong programs will fail to
I also tried dynamic komi with Valkyria a long time ago. It failed. I
did not waste much time on it. Anyway here are my opinions and
intuitions about it.
As usual I am open to been proved being wrong with some empirical
evidence along with a nice algorithm that I can steal and add to
Valk
> I did try this myself but I don't have any data to show what I did. What
> I remember is that it's incredibly tricky - how do you actually know when
> and how much to adjust? If the score starts getting really low or really
> high, do you restart the search with a new komi? If you resta
40:10 PM
Subject: Re: [computer-go] Re: Dynamic komi in commercial programs
On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 1:22 PM, Christian Nentwich
wrote:
>Don, others,
>
>>are there publications about this? If people have tried it out, are
>>there any threads on this list that somebody remembers where
On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 8:10 PM, Darren Cook wrote:
> >> I would like to know what exact experiments with "virtual komi"
> >> have been made and why thay failed. ...
>
> I'm only aware of Don's experiment [1], which he admits he doesn't have
> any details for and only remembers: "I did a bunch of
> ...
> 3) For a big enough handicap, the bot plays random, ugly looking
> moves in the beginning. Can't that be improved?
> Remedies:
> ...
Another remedy is to have some handicap opening books, just to help get
the MCTS programs get a bit further along before they start their "all
moves are crea
>> I would like to know what exact experiments with "virtual komi"
>> have been made and why thay failed. ...
I'm only aware of Don's experiment [1], which he admits he doesn't have
any details for and only remembers: "I did a bunch of experiments and
ALWAYS got a reduced wins when I faked the kom
On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 7:12 PM, Matthew Woodcraft
wrote:
> Don Dailey wrote:
> > I did try this myself but I don't have any data to show what I did.
> What
> > I remember is that it's incredibly tricky - how do you actually know when
> > and how much to adjust? If the score starts getting re
Don Dailey wrote:
> I did try this myself but I don't have any data to show what I did.What
> I remember is that it's incredibly tricky - how do you actually know when
> and how much to adjust? If the score starts getting really low or really
> high, do you restart the search with a new kom
On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 3:08 PM, Benjamin Teuber wrote:
> > It's not up to me to prove anything. It's up to you.
>
> You entered a discussion in which you gave arguments (that I believe
> are nonsense) ...
but at least fits the observation that this method does not work.
> ... against this
On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 1:22 PM, Christian Nentwich <
christian.nentw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Don, others,
>
> are there publications about this? If people have tried it out, are
> there any threads on this list that somebody remembers where results
> are posted? I have not been able to find any.
t; *From:* computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org [mailto:
> computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org] *On Behalf Of *
> dhillism...@netscape.net
> *Sent:* Sunday, July 12, 2009 9:54 AM
> *To:* computer-go@computer-go.org
> *Subject:* Re: [computer-go] Re: Dynamic komi in commercial programs
>
Perhaps the discussion of "dyanamic komi" started by Matthew's post.
He reported his experiments changing komi in a game using MoGo in
the post <20080227200718.ga5...@golux.woodcraft.me.uk> or
http://computer-go.org/pipermail/computer-go/2008-February/014277.html.
And I reported my experiment
> It's not up to me to prove anything. It's up to you.
You entered a discussion in which you gave arguments (that I believe
are nonsense) against this method, which I just meant to counter.
But I don't want to prove anything (well I might want, but I know I cannot).
I'm really just curious about
, July 12, 2009 9:54 AM
To: computer-go@computer-go.org
Subject: Re: [computer-go] Re: Dynamic komi in commercial programs
There are 3 commonly cited problems and 4 commonly proposed remedies.
Problems:
1) Human games remain interesting, even after the winner is clear, because
the players just
Don, others,
are there publications about this? If people have tried it out, are
there any threads on this list that somebody remembers where results
are posted? I have not been able to find any. It would be interesting
to see.
Christian
2009/7/12 Don Dailey :
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 8:
There are 3 commonly cited problems and 4 commonly proposed remedies.
Problems:
1) Human games remain interesting, even after the winner is clear, because the
players just naturally switch to playing for maximum territory. Wouldn't MCTS
bots be more fun to play against if they did that too?
2) S
On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 8:59 AM, Benjamin Teuber wrote:
> > You just hit the nail on the head. Dynamic komi does not encourage a
> > program to overplay the position. Since you are starting from a losing
> > position you HAVE to overplay a bit. You have to attack when it is
> futile.
>
> Tha
> You just hit the nail on the head. Dynamic komi does not encourage a
> program to overplay the position. Since you are starting from a losing
> position you HAVE to overplay a bit. You have to attack when it is futile.
That depends on the komi - if you're behind by fourty points and set
th
Benjamin Teuber wrote:
> I would like to know what exact experiments with "virtual komi" have
> been made and why thay failed.
In particular, it would be interesting to know what board sizes people have
tried it with.
-M-
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computer-go mailing list
co
Don Dailey wrote:
> You just hit the nail on the head. Dynamic komi does not encourage a
> program to overplay the position. Since you are starting from a losing
> position you HAVE to overplay a bit. You have to attack when it is
> futile.
> Dynamic komi just makes the program happy with less. Th
On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 8:07 AM, Benjamin Teuber wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I would like to know what exact experiments with "virtual komi" have
> been made and why thay failed. To me, this idea seems very natural, as
> it encodes the confidence of the stronger player that the weaker one
> will eventually m
Hi,
I would like to know what exact experiments with "virtual komi" have
been made and why thay failed. To me, this idea seems very natural, as
it encodes the confidence of the stronger player that the weaker one
will eventually make more mistakes on his own. You don't need to catch
up a fourty-po
Ingo,
are you sure you already want to bet on one particular technique? :)
I don't believe a score optimisation algorithm like UCT works all that
well when behind. I am pretty sure that human players do *not* choose
between the top three moves if their values are 40%, 39% and 38%. They
will start
Don Dailey wrote:
> I think we should open up to other ideas, not
> just dynamic komi modification. In fact that
> has not proved to be a very fruitful technique
> and I don't understand the fascination with it.
I was not clear enough in the original posting.
My main point is the following: Cu
i think that the rationale behind variable komi is intuitive:
good players can handicap one another more effectively
with komi than with handicap stones, because it's more
fine-grained.
this is likely what is leading to the idea that computers
playing handicap games could use this to their advant
On Sat, Jul 11, 2009 at 4:54 PM, Dave Dyer wrote:
>
> If you are in a lost position, "good play" is play that maximizes
> the probability of a turnaround, which is quite different depending
> on how far behind you are, and for what reason.
What maximizes the probability of a turnaround depends
If you are in a lost position, "good play" is play that maximizes
the probability of a turnaround, which is quite different depending
on how far behind you are, and for what reason.
If the status of all the major groups is solid, then concentrating
on tactics which can gain a few points reliably
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