In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Don Dailey [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes
Michael Williams wrote:
It is a very nice graph. I wish we could see the next 11 doublings.
You and me both!
Just a couple of other comments:
The graph was smoothed with gnuplot's smooth bezier function - but the
raw graph
Michael Wing wrote:
In my program (which implements undo), the cost of
for suicide detection is around 1%, which means it
would lose 1.5 ELO points.
In programs that somehow maintain lists of legal moves
or even probability distribution functions over the legal
moves, avoiding suicide is
Suicide is illegal in Chinese rules and Japanese rules, isn't it ?
___
computer-go mailing list
computer-go@computer-go.org
http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Don Dailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes
Michael Williams wrote:
It is a very nice graph. I wish we could see the next 11 doublings.
You and me both!
Just a couple of other comments:
The graph was smoothed with gnuplot's smooth bezier function - but
the
raw
Hi, Mr.Song
-Original Message-
Suicide is illegal in Chinese rules and Japanese rules, isn't it
?
The suicide rule was tested in the Mainland Chinese rules in
1984, and abandoned in 1986 Rules.
It is used in Ying's rules now.
Ying's Rules is one of the area rules.
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Song
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes
Suicide is illegal in Chinese rules and Japanese rules, isn't it ?
Yes. But suicide is legal under Ing (SST) rules, and under New Zealand
rules.
An unscrupulous program, finding itself in a poor position while playing
under Ing
On Jan 17, 2008, at 3:44 AM, Song wrote:
Suicide is illegal in Chinese rules and Japanese rules, isn't it ?
Yes, it is also illegeal under AGA and CGOS rules.
Christoph
___
computer-go mailing list
computer-go@computer-go.org
I had someone complain several months ago that CGOS doesn't understand
superko and has a bug. It turned out that their program fell on a
superko that was really deep.It was rather interesting to see this
particular game.I think it's fairly likely with 2 deterministic
programs but
Hi, All. Thank you very much.
So Suicide is legal in Ying and New Zealand rules,
but is illegal in Chinese and Japanese and AGA and CGOS rules,
I have heard Chinese and Japanese rules are the most important rulesets in GO
world.
Then why we are discussing it so seriously ?
Song
Nick Wedd
Song wrote:
Hi, All. Thank you very much.
So Suicide is legal in Ying and New Zealand rules,
but is illegal in Chinese and Japanese and AGA and CGOS rules,
I have heard Chinese and Japanese rules are the most important rulesets in GO
world.
Then why we are discussing it so seriously ?
On Jan 17, 2008, at 5:44 AM, Don Dailey wrote:
However, I don't remember if I calibrated the graph or whether it's
arbitrary.It seems like I had a version of gnugo as an anchor,
but I
don't see it in the graph.I could have simply extrapolated from
CGOS
for one of the version.
I
Christoph Birk wrote:
On Jan 17, 2008, at 5:44 AM, Don Dailey wrote:
However, I don't remember if I calibrated the graph or whether it's
arbitrary.It seems like I had a version of gnugo as an anchor, but I
don't see it in the graph.I could have simply extrapolated from CGOS
for one
Don, the data was derived from self-play, wasn't it?
Yes, it was derived from self play.
I also did a study at one time where I tried these doublings against a
stable gnugo version and got very similar results - the program went
from being crushed by gnugo (rarely winning a game) to the
If you look at the rating table on the cgos web page you will see that
600 ELO difference corresponds to about 97% winning percentage.At
the levels I tested against gnugo a single game per 100 could swing it
50 ELO. Since it did not lose a single game you could assume that it
was either
Suicide issue is discussed here in the context of game evaluation, not game
playing. For the purpose of game evaluation, one can do the simualtion anyway
one want?to as long as it gives a good evaluation value.
DL
-Original Message-
From: Song [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: computer-go
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Jacques Basaldúa,
I say that adding superko adds 6% or so for 2 reasons.
About 2% is adding it to the hash table. About 4% is
computing the zobrist hash, which is mainly used for
superko.
But I suggest you should use superko in the tree portion - just not in
the
Song wrote:
I have heard Chinese and Japanese rules are the most important rulesets in GO
world.
Then why we are discussing it so seriously ?
If you ask only because of suicide, then discussing it is interesting
because other rulesets might still be used on some occasions and because
I found a draft of what I believe was one of the computer-go
postings.I'll summarize again for anyone who missed it (and I'm not
sure I posted it.) :
I did do a 7x7 test against gnugo. I used a komi of 8.5 which I
believe is a win for black with perfect play. I base this on the
fact
Jacques Basaldúa,
I say that adding superko adds 6% or so for 2 reasons.
About 2% is adding it to the hash table. About 4% is
computing the zobrist hash, which is mainly used for
superko.
Another cost is undo. Superko requires undo, unless
you want store a hash value with each chain of stones.
I
On Jan 17, 2008, at 6:11 AM, Don Dailey wrote:
On Jan 17, 2008, at 5:44 AM, Don Dailey wrote:
However, I don't remember if I calibrated the graph or whether it's
arbitrary.It seems like I had a version of gnugo as an
anchor, but I
don't see it in the graph.I could have simply
I have two linux desktops, a dual AMD with 1 or 2 gigs and a quad Intel 6600
with 3 gigs RAM; both sit idle much of the time. Can you sketch the
requirements for this test? Will it be using time controls or fixed numbers of
playouts? In the latter case, I can nice the process(es) when need be.
Michael Williams wrote:
It is a very nice graph. I wish we could see the next 11 doublings.
With some help, I could redo this experiment and add:
1 or 2 more levels.
A version of gnugo with known strength.
and/or some fixed version of mogo - which we could simultaneously
test on
It might be worth creating a BOINC client. It will take some time to get the
infrastructure organized, but the advantage would be the ease of recruiting
volunteers: direct them to download a client, and work units will automatically
distribute and play whenever the volunteers' screensavers are
I'm not sure I am willing to invest this much effort although it's an
appealing idea. Let me browse the BOINC site a bit.
I think it's better to start a test - and perhaps expand this to BOINC
later if want to take it even farther.
- Don
terry mcintyre wrote:
It might be worth
I assume you are on a unix based system since you are talking aboing
nicing a job. Good. I can easily deal with Mac's or Linux for this.
What I would do is bundle up everything into a tarball and have it all
set up and ready to go, so that it would not be much work on your part.
The tarball
Now I need to know where Mogo is for linux, and how to run it under
cgos-like conditions.
What I need, is the command line options to get this right. I want to
set mogo at a fixed depth level that is fast enough to be testable on
CGOS so that we can benchmark it, with the CORRECT options for
Don,
All sounds good. Yes, I forgot to mention that I am using linux.
If possible, I'd suggest that the process be as automatic as possible - rather
than the user emailing results, periodically ssh or scp outbound to your
computer.
The copies of gnugo/mogo/fatman and any other programs would
I seriously doubt there will be repeat games with FatMan or Mogo.
Maybe with Gnugo but their only opponent will be Monte Carlo type programs.
Nevertheless, as a sanity check we can look for repeat games. I've
always want to make a program to test for repeat games - taking
symmetries into
On Jan 1, 2008 9:27 PM, Jason House [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I've started an open source implementation for computing the strength of
move features. It's not done yet, but will eventually be posted to
http://housebot.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/housebot/trunk/elo/
I posted this a few days
Mogo will just be one data point in the experiment, but an important one
because we will benchmark the same exact version on CGOS.
--nbTotalSimulations 11000 (not high level -- 20 is of course much
stronger but requires more time) instead of --time
no pondering, as you want fixed level
I'm also trying to find the magic for running gnugo.There was an
issue with it adjusting it's level dynamically and a way to turn that
off. What I use now is:
gnugo --mode gtp --score aftermath --capture-all-dead --chinese-rules
There was also a superko switch.I will figure this out
I want to run it exactly the same on all machines - so I would prefer
not to take a chance with this.
I have a core 2 duo, but I don't want to push the load too high for
this experiment.
- Don
terry mcintyre wrote:
Will Mogo with nbThreads=4 and --nbTotalSimulations 11 yield the same
Will Mogo with nbThreads=4 and --nbTotalSimulations 11 yield the same
results as nbThreads=1 and --nbTotalSimulations 11, presumably in
approximately 1/4 the time?
Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED]
“Wherever is found what is called a paternal government, there is found state
Olivier,
How much memory does mogo require if I crank up the number of
simulations pretty high? Does it allocate dynamically or work from a
fixed pool? What happens if there is not enough memory?
I could include Mogo in the study too, not just as a single data point
if I can get 13
Will Mogo with nbThreads=4 and --nbTotalSimulations 11 yield the
same results as nbThreads=1 and --nbTotalSimulations 11,
presumably in approximately 1/4 the time?
--nbTotalSimulations gives the number of simulations for the first thread;
the others are stopped by time. As threads are
Thank you for your response,however I want to test mogo at a FIXED
level - we will be testing on different hardware and we don't want to
use time-contol.
Is there a way to properly set it for a fixed number of play-outs?
Also, we will NOT be using multiple processors.
Mogo will just
Perfect! I will adjust the level so that it plays as strong as
possible on CGOS without taking a risk of getting into time trouble on
modest hardware. Then I can make Mogo the anchor player.
- Don
Olivier Teytaud wrote:
Mogo will just be one data point in the experiment, but an
Never mind, I found what I want:
gnugo --mode gtp --score aftermath --capture-all-dead --chinese-rules
--min-level 8 --max-level 8 --positional-superko
- Don
Don Dailey wrote:
I'm also trying to find the magic for running gnugo.There was an
issue with it adjusting it's level
How much memory does mogo require if I crank up the number of
simulations pretty high? Does it allocate dynamically or work from a
fixed pool? What happens if there is not enough memory?
I think you won't have any troubles with that, unless the
hardware is very old.
There is a pruning
I'm experimenting with the number of simulations at fairly low levels to
find a point of equilibrium for FatMan vs Mogo.In other words, I
want 13 versions of each program and I want to find a level where the
playing strength is roughly comparable.
I will try doing 1/2, 1/4, 1/8 and 1/16
Any estimates of when this problem is likely to surface? Is a version
available which is more suitable for greater numbers of simulations?
We can compile that easily, but
I don't know if I can distribute it
(administrativly). To be checked...
Olivier
You should probably test gnugo at level 10?
Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED]
“Wherever is found what is called a paternal government, there is found state
education. It has been discovered that the best way to insure implicit
obedience is to commence tyranny in the nursery.”
Benjamin
Don Dailey wrote:
Never mind, I found what I want:
gnugo --mode gtp --score aftermath --capture-all-dead --chinese-rules
--min-level 8 --max-level 8 --positional-superko
Forget about --score aftermath. It does absolutely nothing when
combined with --mode gtp.
/Gunnar
Le jeudi 17 janvier 2008, Don Dailey a écrit :
Perfect! I will adjust the level so that it plays as strong as
possible on CGOS without taking a risk of getting into time trouble on
modest hardware. Then I can make Mogo the anchor player.
Even if i love Mogo, and i am very impressed,
I believe that certain GnuGo features are turned off at level 8. In any case,
it's still pretty quick at level 10 on modern hardware.
Terry McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED]
“Wherever is found what is called a paternal government, there is found state
education. It has been discovered that the best
It's not real important for this test, but I think I will use
gnugo-3.7.11 as the anchor and set it to 1800.0 ELO - which I think is
fairly close to what it would do on CGOS.
I will use level 10.
- Don
Alain Baeckeroot wrote:
Le jeudi 17 janvier 2008, Don Dailey a écrit :
Perfect! I
Hi Don,
I'm now running mogo-pr-1cpu on my quad core box, Intel Q6600 3GHz
with 4GB RAM and gnugo-3.7.11-l10F, gnugo-3.7.10-l10F and FatMan-1
on an AMD athlon64 2GHz with 1GB RAM, as reference programs on cgos
9x9. I can provide these two boxes for your experiment. Then, how
long will it
Do you run linux?
I already have a tarball which has almost everything you need - and it
includes the binaries and has each player set up in the registry.
The only thing missing is an automated scheme to get the result files to
me. I'm looking to see if I can get an ftp server working.
It
Don Dailey wrote:
Thanks, will do that!
Someone once told me that level 8 is faster and plays just as well. Is
there any truth to that? I am planning to run this study at level 10.
Level 8 is certainly faster and it ought to be weaker but I can't say
anything about how much.
/Gunnar
Thanks, will do that!
Someone once told me that level 8 is faster and plays just as well. Is
there any truth to that? I am planning to run this study at level 10.
- Don
Gunnar Farnebäck wrote:
Don Dailey wrote:
Never mind, I found what I want:
gnugo --mode gtp --score aftermath
I learned many things, thank you very much.
I want to know one more thing.
If the GO rules standardized on one ruleset that forbid suicide,
At that time, do you still disscuss suicide and use it in game evaluation ?
Song
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Suicide issue is discussed here in the
In one of my posts I'm pretty sure I published the raw data.
Nevertheless, I will see if I can find the data. ...
Hi Don,
Around Jun 26th last year you sent me (or I downloaded) some files. I
have 04.tar.bz2, 05.tar.bz2, 06.tar.bz2 (which I think is cgos
archives), cgos.tar.gz,
Yes. Please reread compgo123's message.
Song wrote:
I learned many things, thank you very much.
I want to know one more thing.
If the GO rules standardized on one ruleset that forbid suicide,
At that time, do you still disscuss suicide and use it in game evaluation ?
Song
[EMAIL
I was doing a small scalability test own my own with mogo on 7x7 with 8.5 komi and so far the most interesting game is mogo losing as back given 64 seconds per
move against a white player using 32 seconds per move. With this komi, black is currently winning 72% of the games (with player
Sorry, I meant 4 fast cores and 15GB of RAM (each core is twice as fast as what
you get with the low-end instance).
terry mcintyre wrote:
I have two linux desktops, a dual AMD with 1 or 2 gigs and a quad Intel
6600 with 3 gigs RAM; both sit idle much of the time. Can you sketch the
Thank you. I've been waiting for your release that you said you would do a
while back. Hopefully I can get some time to look at it next week.
Jason House wrote:
On Jan 1, 2008 9:27 PM, Jason House [EMAIL PROTECTED]
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I've started an open source
Yes, Fedora Core 5-64bit for AMD and Ubuntu 7.10-64bit for Intel.
Which is better do you think, however, to stop current running bots on
cgos and run your clients instead OR to keep current bots runnig?
As Terry already answered to you.
-Hideki
Don Dailey: [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
Do you run
I know it won't work - Terry has tried. But we are going to try to fix
it up.
- Don
Don Dailey wrote:
I don't think my prepared files will run on 64 bit linux but you can try.
- Don
Hideki Kato wrote:
Yes, Fedora Core 5-64bit for AMD and Ubuntu 7.10-64bit for Intel.
Which is
Yes. Please reread compgo123's message.
OK, I can understand it now. Thanks.
So do we also can consider of ignore KO's rule when doing game evaluation
(play-out simulation) ?
Michael Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Yes. Please reread compgo123's message.
Song wrote:
I learned
Sure, give it a try. I have not tried it myself, but I'm guessing it will not improve your engine. The cost of testing for simple ko is negligible and
allowing it will probably prolong the playouts.
Song wrote:
Yes. Please reread compgo123's message.
OK, I can understand it now. Thanks.
On Thu, Jan 17, 2008 at 10:36:09PM -0500, Michael Williams wrote:
I have not tried it myself, but I'm guessing it will not improve your
engine. The cost of testing for simple ko is negligible and allowing it
will probably prolong the playouts.
I am not far enough with my engine to test yet,
Yes, Fedora Core 5-64bit for AMD and Ubuntu 7.10-64bit for Intel.
Which is better do you think, however, to stop current running bots on
cgos and run your clients instead OR to keep current bots runnig?
As Terry already answered to you.
-Hideki
Don Dailey: [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
Do you run
Song wrote:
If the GO rules standardized on one ruleset that forbid suicide,
At that time, do you still disscuss suicide and use it in game evaluation ?
Research is free; it does not need to impose itself unnecessary
restrictions. So - yes.
--
robert jasiek
63 matches
Mail list logo
