Re: [computer-go] First ever win of a computer against a pro 9P as black (game of Go, 9x9).

esults support such recent claim by strong players that strongest programs such as Zen are not so strong against human. It seems, however, too early to conclude anyway. Hidek >-Original Message- >From: Hideki Kato >To: computer-go >Sent: Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:39 pm >Subj

Re: [computer-go] First ever win of a computer against a pro 9P as black (game of Go, 9x9).

nated. Perhaps, what David Doshay calls, the "evil twin effect" causes self play to give the appearance of scaling better. - Dave Hillis -Original Message- From: Hideki Kato To: computer-go Sent: Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:39 pm Subject: Re: [computer-go] First ever win of a computer a

RE: [SPAM] Re: [computer-go] First ever win of a computer against a pro 9P as black (game of Go, 9x9).

Many Faces caches both local tactical results (ladders etc), and life and death reading results. For tactics it records a "shadow". For life and death it saves the whole tree. The tactical caches are still active in the UCT-MC code since reading tactics is part of move generation. The Life a

Re: [SPAM] Re: [computer-go] First ever win of a computer against a pro 9P as black (game of Go, 9x9).

2009/10/30 terry mcintyre : > This may be useful in computer Go. One of the reasons human pros do well is > that they compute certain sub-problems once, and don't repeat the effort > until something important changes. They know in an instant that certain > positions are live or dead or seki; they k

Re: [computer-go] First ever win of a computer against a pro 9P as black (game of Go, 9x9).

dhillism...@netscape.net: <8cc26e08cfc0f77-5fd0-a...@webmail-m052.sysops.aol.com>: >> -Original Message- >> From: Hideki Kato >> To: computer-go >> Sent: Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:41 am >> Subject: Re: [computer-go] First ever win of a computer against a pr

Re: [SPAM] Re: [computer-go] First ever win of a computer against a pro 9P as black (game of Go, 9x9).

What is interesting is not the fact that intrasitivity exists, that is not in doubt. But it quite interesting that this much intransitivity can be created with non-trivial and strong programs. I would like to see the data though, specifically the number of games between each player at each level

Re: [SPAM] Re: [computer-go] First ever win of a computer against a pro 9P as black (game of Go, 9x9).

> > BTW, recently I've measured the strength (win rate) vs time for a move > curves with Zen vs GNU Go and Zen vs Zen (self-play) on 19 x 19 board. > Without opening book, it saturates between +400 and +500 Elo against > GNU but doesn't upto +800 Elo in self-play. That's somewhat > interesting (de

Re: [SPAM] Re: [computer-go] First ever win of a computer against a pro 9P as black (game of Go, 9x9).

2009/10/29 terry mcintyre : > That sounds to me like "a dumb human with a smart algorithm can beat a fast > computer with a dumb algorithm" -- which speaks more to Penrose's reluctance > to improve algorithms in his dumbed-down computer models than it does to any > quantum-physical effects. > > Sti

Re: [computer-go] First ever win of a computer against a pro 9P as black (game of Go, 9x9).

> -Original Message- > From: Hideki Kato > To: computer-go > Sent: Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:41 am > Subject: Re: [computer-go] First ever win of a computer against a pro 9P as > black (game of Go, 9x9). > ... > BTW, recently I've measured the strength (win rate)

Re: [SPAM] Re: [computer-go] First ever win of a computer against a pro 9P as black (game of Go, 9x9).

Yes, I agree with you on most of this. However, I believe that Go is a very simple domain in some sense and that we romanticize it too much. I am not saying there is not amazing depth to it, but it's represented very compactly and it's a game of perfect information with very limited choice

Re: [SPAM] Re: [computer-go] First ever win of a computer against a pro 9P as black (game of Go, 9x9).

labours and the slave that votes" -- Peter Pindar From: Mark Boon To: computer-go Sent: Thu, October 29, 2009 10:14:18 AM Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [computer-go] First ever win of a computer against a pro 9P as black (game of Go, 9x9). Roger Penrose thinks the human brain can do things

Re: [SPAM] Re: [computer-go] First ever win of a computer against a pro 9P as black (game of Go, 9x9).

Roger Penrose thinks the human brain can do things a Turing machine cannot. (Note: I don't say 'computer'.) He claims it's due to some quantum-physical effects used by the brain. I doubt his ideas are correct, but he did have a few interesting chess-positions to support his theory. Typicall

Re: [SPAM] Re: [computer-go] First ever win of a computer against a pro 9P as black (game of Go, 9x9).

On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 12:40 PM, Petr Baudis wrote: > On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 12:00:32PM -0400, Don Dailey wrote: > > That is exactly as it should be and is not a barrier. I don't think you > > know the difference between a wall and a point that is just far away. > > I'd phrase this positively

Re: [SPAM] Re: [computer-go] First ever win of a computer against a pro 9P as black (game of Go, 9x9).

On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 12:00:32PM -0400, Don Dailey wrote: > That is exactly as it should be and is not a barrier. I don't think you > know the difference between a wall and a point that is just far away. I'd phrase this positively - the point is extremely far away with the current way MCTS wil

Re: [SPAM] Re: [computer-go] First ever win of a computer against a pro 9P as black (game of Go, 9x9).

2009/10/29 Olivier Teytaud > > >> >> Just curious, who actually claimed that and what was it based on? >> >> > I don't know who claimed it first, and who agreed for it, > but I agree with it :-) > But you always seek the most hardware when you play against a human it seems. I think you realize

Re: [SPAM] Re: [computer-go] First ever win of a computer against a pro 9P as black (game of Go, 9x9).

2009/10/29 Olivier Teytaud > > >> Yes, this group does not have a consensus at all on this. On the one >> hand we hear that MCTS has reached a dead end and there is no benefit from >> extra CPU power, and on the other hand we have these developers hustling >> around for the biggest machines th

Re: [SPAM] Re: [computer-go] First ever win of a computer against a pro 9P as black (game of Go, 9x9).

> > > Just curious, who actually claimed that and what was it based on? > > I don't know who claimed it first, and who agreed for it, but I agree with it :-) More precisely, I think that increasing time and computational power makes computers stronger, but not for some particular things like long-

Re: [computer-go] First ever win of a computer against a pro 9P as black (game of Go, 9x9).

2009/10/26 Don Dailey : > ... On the one hand we hear that MCTS has reached a dead end and there is no > benefit from extra CPU power... Just curious, who actually claimed that and what was it based on? Erik ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@comp

Re: [SPAM] Re: [computer-go] First ever win of a computer against a pro 9P as black (game of Go, 9x9).

> > Yes, this group does not have a consensus at all on this. On the one > hand we hear that MCTS has reached a dead end and there is no benefit from > extra CPU power, and on the other hand we have these developers hustling > around for the biggest machines they can muster in order to play matc

Re: [computer-go] First ever win of a computer against a pro 9P as black (game of Go, 9x9).

Am I remembering correctly (maybe not) that Mogo communicates between nodes three times per second? That isn't a lot of communication opportunities if each turn lasts a few seconds. Olivier, have you tested parallel Mogo's ability to scale with core count at blitz speeds? I might imagine, for examp

Re: [computer-go] First ever win of a computer against a pro 9P as black (game of Go, 9x9).

Mark Boon: <66913149-592c-426d-b52d-f52f3fa51...@gmail.com>: >On Oct 27, 2009, at 7:41 PM, Hideki Kato wrote: > >> IMHO, Jeff's idea is still very interesting while >> the implementation by the staff in Numenta have been going to not >> right direction. > >That was also my opinion. What I thought

Re: [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: [computer-go] First ever win of a computer against a pro 9P as black (game of Go, 9x9).

> > > >If there are people interested in a ph.D. or a post-doc around Monte-Carlo > >Tree Search, candidates are welcome (Monte-Carlo Tree Search, and not > >necessarily / not only computer-go). > > Excuse me, but what press conference and where to ask? > People interested in a ph.D. or a post doc

Re: [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: [computer-go] First ever win of a computer against a pro 9P as black (game of Go, 9x9).

> > > But is it shown that "the score is well done" for these properties to > hold in case of RAVE-guided exploration? Since it massively perpetuates > any kind of MC bias... > This only matters for the fact that we don't visit all the tree. For the consistency (the fact that asymptotically we wil

Re: [computer-go] First ever win of a computer against a pro 9P as black (game of Go, 9x9).

On Oct 27, 2009, at 7:41 PM, Hideki Kato wrote: IMHO, Jeff's idea is still very interesting while the implementation by the staff in Numenta have been going to not right direction. That was also my opinion. What I thought was strange is that Numenta's implementation doesn't have feed-back

Re: [computer-go] First ever win of a computer against a pro 9P as black (game of Go, 9x9).

Mark Boon: <4ec4bc46-e52f-4ac2-a7ff-edaf17de3...@gmail.com>: >On Oct 27, 2009, at 3:39 AM, Hideki Kato wrote: > >> I strongly believe that such patterns must not be only spatial >> (static) but also temporal, ie, dynamic or sequence of pattens which >> allow the player quickly remember the results

Re: [SPAM] Re: [computer-go] First ever win of a computer against a pro 9P as black (game of Go, 9x9).

Olivier Teytaud: : >I forgot the most important thing around this win against a pro: >this press conference was for the starting of a project, and in this project >we have funding for ph.D. or postdocs. >If there are people interested in a ph.D. or a post-doc around Monte-Carlo >Tree Search, candid

Re: [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: [computer-go] First ever win of a computer against a pro 9P as black (game of Go, 9x9).

On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 06:32:44PM +0200, Olivier Teytaud wrote: > > > > > > AIUI, once upon N simulations in a node you take let's say the node with > > the lowest value, pick one son of it at random within the tree and start > > a simulation? > > > > I'll try to write it clearly (for binary dete

Re: [SPAM] Re: [computer-go] First ever win of a computer against a pro 9P as black (game of Go, 9x9).

I forgot the most important thing around this win against a pro: this press conference was for the starting of a project, and in this project we have funding for ph.D. or postdocs. If there are people interested in a ph.D. or a post-doc around Monte-Carlo Tree Search, candidates are welcome (Monte-

Re: [computer-go] First ever win of a computer against a pro 9P as black (game of Go, 9x9).

On Oct 27, 2009, at 3:39 AM, Hideki Kato wrote: I strongly believe that such patterns must not be only spatial (static) but also temporal, ie, dynamic or sequence of pattens which allow the player quickly remember the results of local fights or L&D. I think that's exactly right. At least for

[computer-go] First ever win of a computer against a pro 9P as black (game of Go, 9x9).

Dear all, some comments by my Taiwanese colleagues about the game played by MoGo against the 9p pro: 1) mogoTW finally ran on the 16*8 system on Oct. 26, 2009. 2) Contributors for which I did not know their real name: "Hsien-Der Huang" and "Cheng-Wei Chou" (sorry for them!) 3) Some comments by

Re: [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: [computer-go] First ever win of a computer against a pro 9P as black (game of Go, 9x9).

> > > AIUI, once upon N simulations in a node you take let's say the node with > the lowest value, pick one son of it at random within the tree and start > a simulation? > I'll try to write it clearly (for binary deterministic games, extensions can be shown but they are too long and out of topic i

Re: [computer-go] First ever win of a computer against a pro 9P as black (game of Go, 9x9).

I strongly believe that such patterns must not be only spatial (static) but also temporal, ie, dynamic or sequence of pattens which allow the player quickly remember the results of local fights or L&D. Hideki Darren Cook: <4ae6d9b6.1070...@dcook.org>: >> I will offer some anecdotal evidence co

Re: [computer-go] First ever win of a computer against a pro 9P as black (game of Go, 9x9).

> I will offer some anecdotal evidence concerning humans playing other > humans, from club and tournament playing experience: you will find that > shorter time limits amplify the winning probability of stronger players... Another anecdote. At a Fost Cup (Computer Go tournament) from 10-15 years ag

Re: [computer-go] First ever win of a computer against a pro 9P as black (game of Go, 9x9).

I suspect I am in your camp, Mark, though obviously it would be nice if we had measurements on this instead of conjectures. I will offer some anecdotal evidence concerning humans playing other humans, from club and tournament playing experience: you will find that shorter time limits amplify

Re: [SPAM] Re: [computer-go] First ever win of a computer against a pro 9P as black (game of Go, 9x9).

On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 08:47:41AM +0100, Olivier Teytaud wrote: > > Could you give us at least a general picture of improvements compared to > > what was last published as > > www.lri.fr/~teytaud/eg.pdf? Is it > > "just" > > further tuning and small tweaks or

Re: [SPAM] Re: [computer-go] First ever win of a computer against a pro 9P as black (game of Go, 9x9).

> Could you give us at least a general picture of improvements compared to > what was last published as > www.lri.fr/~teytaud/eg.pdf? Is it "just" > further tuning and small tweaks or are you trying out some exciting new > things? ;-) > There is one important

RE: [computer-go] First ever win of a computer against a pro 9P as black (game of Go, 9x9).

Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 11:20 AM To: computer-go Subject: [computer-go] First ever win of a computer against a pro 9P as black (game of Go, 9x9). Dear all, For information, our Taiwanese partners(**) for a ANR grant have organized public demonstration games between MoGoTW (based on

Re: [computer-go] First ever win of a computer against a pro 9P as black (game of Go, 9x9).

2009/10/26 Don Dailey : > Yes, you understood me right.   I disagree with Olivier on this one.    To > me it is self-evident that humans are more scalable than computers because > we have better heuristics.   When that is not true it is usually because the > task is trivial, not because it is hard.

Re: [computer-go] First ever win of a computer against a pro 9P as black (game of Go, 9x9).

Yes, you understood me right. I disagree with Olivier on this one.To me it is self-evident that humans are more scalable than computers because we have better heuristics. When that is not true it is usually because the task is trivial, not because it is hard. - Don On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 a

Re: [computer-go] First ever win of a computer against a pro 9P as black (game of Go, 9x9).

2009/10/26 Don Dailey : > > > 2009/10/26 Richard J. Lorentz > > Yes,  this group does not have a consensus at all on this.   On the one hand > we hear that MCTS has reached a dead end and there is no benefit from extra > CPU power, and on the other hand we have these developers hustling around > f

[computer-go] First ever win of a computer against a pro 9P as black (game of Go, 9x9).

Congratulations Olivier and the MoGo team! Good job! Now let us know the secrets of MoGoTW :) Did you get pro commentary on the game? Martin ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/co

Re: [computer-go] First ever win of a computer against a pro 9P as black (game of Go, 9x9).

On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 04:20:24PM -0400, Don Dailey wrote: > Peter, did your comment get cut off? Oops, indeed. "Prone to tactical mistakes in high time pressure" is what I meant to say. > Anyway, I agree with you on this. Humans are not stronger on short time > settings. I believe tha

Re: [computer-go] First ever win of a computer against a pro 9P as black (game of Go, 9x9).

Peter, did your comment get cut off? Anyway, I agree with you on this. Humans are not stronger on short time settings. I believe that SOME humans could be better if they have a problem staying interested for a longer period of time and the longer time control upsets their rhythm or somet

Re: [computer-go] First ever win of a computer against a pro 9P as black (game of Go, 9x9).

2009/10/26 Richard J. Lorentz > How things changes. You would never hear a comment like Remark c) below > concerning the "old" alpha-beta chess engines. > Yes, this group does not have a consensus at all on this. On the one hand we hear that MCTS has reached a dead end and there is no benefi

Re: [computer-go] First ever win of a computer against a pro 9P as black (game of Go, 9x9).

Hi! On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 07:19:45PM +0100, Olivier Teytaud wrote: > For information, our Taiwanese partners(**) for a ANR grant have organized > public demonstration games between Thanks for the information! > MoGoTW (based on MoGo 4.86.Soissons + the "TW" modifications developped >

Re: [computer-go] First ever win of a computer against a pro 9P as black (game of Go, 9x9).

How things changes. You would never hear a comment like Remark c) below concerning the "old" alpha-beta chess engines. Olivier Teytaud wrote: Dear all, For information, our Taiwanese partners(**) for a ANR grant have organized public demonstration games between MoGoTW (based on MoGo 4.86

[computer-go] First ever win of a computer against a pro 9P as black (game of Go, 9x9).

Dear all, For information, our Taiwanese partners(**) for a ANR grant have organized public demonstration games between MoGoTW (based on MoGo 4.86.Soissons + the "TW" modifications developped jointly with our Taiwanese colleagues) and C.-H. Chou 9P, top pro player winner