Re: [CGUYS] Family Project
Most folks don't seem to get that you need a LOT of graphics horsepower when gaming. This is completely at variance with what you need for a general purpose office computer. Well that will depend on the game. My copy of Zork! runs just fine on an MDA card. I can see a gamer buying a new graphics card with each game purchased. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Family Project
Some argue the merits of such headphones, others hear a considerable difference between these and regular headphones. And some people believe in alien abduction too. That does not make it so. They say that gambling is a tax on those who are bad at math. Products like 5.1 headphones are a tax on those who are bad at science. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Family Project
Mostly correct, although when gaming...or at the movies or anywhere else where 5.1+ is in use, you don't move your head. Most of us can pick up the sounds coming from different directions without moving...remind me not to sit behind Tom at any movies. That is true, but that is for a room full of people and only some of the seats in the room will fully get the 3D effect. The way headphones work is completely different. To work correctly the sound must be processed for the specific listening environment. You can't simply switch from one system to the other. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Family Project
Supposedly, 3D headphones work by exaggerating the interference patterns you naturally hear by having sounds from a source reach each ear at different times. To me, this sounds more like producing a hyper-realistic sensation than contributing much in the way of extra information. Everyone's sensory experience is interpreted, and there are experiments galore that show that what we hear depends an awful lot on our expectations and visual cues. So it could be for example that in your game you hear someone sneaking up behind you because you don't see them on the screen. Please read the Wikipedia article on sound_localization before joining this discussion. This is the Computer Guys, not the Psychic Friends Network. The limiting factor is that we have 2 ears and with headphones the location of the ears and the sound source is fixed. All timing differences can do is simulate a 2D 360-degree field. To get 3D something else has to happen and it can't happen because the headphones are clamped to your head, thus in fixed position relative to your ears. So you get 2D: N, S, E, W, NE, NW, etc., but no up and down (no 3D). * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Family Project
Damn, Guys!! I did not meant to open such a can of worms that has brought on personal attacks. Just wanted to get some idea what my options were. Tracy Foust **A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/10075x1215855013x1201028747/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=De cemailfooterNO62) * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Family Project
I showed my daughter the emails regarding the building of the computer. Her question was Who ARE these guys? Sheesh! Tracy Foust **A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/10075x1215855013x1201028747/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=De cemailfooterNO62) * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Family Project
There have been no personal attacks in this thread, but as usual sub-threads have broken off and not been renamed. I still think the best and most direct answer you got was my very first. In any issue of PC Gamer you'll get a parts list you can use _today_. On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 9:25 AM, trac...@aol.com wrote: Damn, Guys!! I did not meant to open such a can of worms that has brought on personal attacks. Just wanted to get some idea what my options were. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Family Project
I showed my daughter the emails regarding the building of the computer. Her question was Who ARE these guys? Sheesh! Then she lives a very sheltered life. When fans get together a spirited discussion is inevitable and a few elbows thrown is not at all unusual. What could generate more sparks than the building of a computer from scratch? Would you expect a neighborhood basket ball game to be a bunch of guys saying excuse me and after you? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Family Project
Aaah ... me thinks she was impressed. It's a generational thing... db Tom Piwowar wrote: I showed my daughter the emails regarding the building of the computer. Her question was Who ARE these guys? Sheesh! Then she lives a very sheltered life. When fans get together a spirited discussion is inevitable and a few elbows thrown is not at all unusual. What could generate more sparks than the building of a computer from scratch? Would you expect a neighborhood basket ball game to be a bunch of guys saying excuse me and after you? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Family Project
Aaah ... me thinks she was impressed. It's a generational thing... I think a little more staying on--or at least close to--topic would help. As soon as I see a budget I'll post a suggested parts list. As far as I know I'm the only one here who has admitted scratch-building a computer specifically for gaming. Please come out of the woodwork if you've done the same, once we have a budget number. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Family Project
you need to distinguish between spirited discussion and petty discussion --- On Fri, 1/16/09, Tom Piwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote: From: Tom Piwowar t...@tjpa.com Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Family Project To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Date: Friday, January 16, 2009, 5:03 PM I showed my daughter the emails regarding the building of the computer. Her question was Who ARE these guys? Sheesh! Then she lives a very sheltered life. When fans get together a spirited discussion is inevitable and a few elbows thrown is not at all unusual. What could generate more sparks than the building of a computer from scratch? Would you expect a neighborhood basket ball game to be a bunch of guys saying excuse me and after you? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Family Project
It's *harder* to hear when someone is sneaking up behind you. But with 2D headphones it's *impossible*. Could be, but that is not proof that headphones can provide 3D. It probably means that the headphones are connected to only some of the 5 channels. Go over to Wikipedia and read the very fine article on sound localization. It points out that to get more than 2D you need more than 2 detectors (a.k.a. ears) or to move the detectors (i.e. move your head). Anyone claiming to be able to do this with headphones must therefore have more than 2 ears and OMG! must be one of those Martians who are in command of Windows 7. OMG! OMG! They are already amongst us! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Family Project
I think you've misread the article. It clearly says only two ears are required for localization. Which bears out my own experience with surround headphones and the speaker test button. You can very clearly tell the difference between the front and rear speakers wearing these headphones. Let's not even get started on bad 2 channel mixes, which are all too common in games, and can result in the out of phase complete cancellation of the sound! I forget the specific title just now, but a couple years back in one of my favorite games, I was completely unable to hear the helicopters (and some other sounds) through my then 2D headphones. Very disconcerting. On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 1:19 PM, Tom Piwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote: It's *harder* to hear when someone is sneaking up behind you. But with 2D headphones it's *impossible*. Could be, but that is not proof that headphones can provide 3D. It probably means that the headphones are connected to only some of the 5 channels. Go over to Wikipedia and read the very fine article on sound localization. It points out that to get more than 2D you need more than 2 detectors (a.k.a. ears) or to move the detectors (i.e. move your head). Anyone claiming to be able to do this with headphones must therefore have more than 2 ears and OMG! must be one of those Martians who are in command of Windows 7. OMG! OMG! They are already amongst us! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Family Project
I think you've misread the article. It clearly says only two ears are required for localization. Which bears out my own experience with surround headphones and the speaker test button. You can very clearly tell the difference between the front and rear speakers wearing these headphones. Crap. Here we go again. Two ears gets you 2D localization. Front and rear is 2D information. For 3D you have to move your head. The article even explains why you have to cock your head to get vertical information. To get 3D from 2 detectors you must have the 2 detectors moving in space through the sound field. With headphones the sound field moves exactly the same as your head so that doesn't work. With headphones when you detect something behind you and you turn around toward it the sound will still be behind you. That won't change until the computer tracks your motions and changes the audio information to match. 5.1 makes no sense for headphones. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Family Project
Come on over than and I'll show you. When she says Front Right it definitely sounds forward of when she says Rear Right. No movement is needed. It may be nice to factor in movement for pinning down a noise in the game world, but more often in games I just want to know if I'm being attacked from the rear. There's little time for waving the head around to try to figure out _where_ behind me the sound is coming from. In fact, now I remember hearing very good *stereo* 3D. They simply record using two pickups in a styrofoam head. Different subject I know, but like human vision, it's quite possible to fool human hearing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binaural_recording On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 2:10 PM, Tom Piwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote: For 3D you have to move your head. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Family Project
Is there such a rule of thumb in the gaming computer world? Yes. Your graphics subsystem and power supply are the places to spend the bucks. 400W is not nearly enough to run a modern graphics card and processor, plus at a minimum one optical and two or three hard drives, plus other stuff. I had the PS issue on my last build: http://esande.net/features/conroe.html Not exactly professional photography but it gives the idea. This is a fairly old machine but it still rocks, and contrary to opinion it cost less than the equivalent Dell when I built it. Much less. Most folks don't seem to get that you need a LOT of graphics horsepower when gaming. This is completely at variance with what you need for a general purpose office computer. In my experience, that is. Would it make a difference if they started with an off-lease Dell workstation from http://www.dfsdirectsales.com/, or are those too old? BTW, that's quite a fan in your machine. Could heat the whole room, save on your heating bill. Betty * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Family Project
In fact, now I remember hearing very good *stereo* 3D. They simply record using two pickups in a styrofoam head. Different subject I know, but like human vision, it's quite possible to fool human hearing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binaural_recording There is just no helping some people. You probably think Windows is cool too. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Family Project
Yes, we know Tom, you hate windows. We know, you've flogged it to DEATH...we all know. It's not a secret. Everyone agrees with you now, you've beaten everyone to your side. Windows is horrid and terrible and a scourge. So can you possibly, possibly stop now? You refuse to answer direct questions and just keep beating that same dead horse. We'll leave the 'tom hates windows thread' alone if you can just shut your mouth. Yes I'm being rude but I am *so* tired of your childish name calling when someone doesn't agree with your opinion. Grow up or get a life outside of your one track blah blah blah. On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 3:17 PM, Tom Piwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote: There is just no helping some people. You probably think Windows is cool too. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * -- Make sure you support your local CarbonONset programs! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Family Project
Im a Mac fan and also get tired at times of Tom's blah, blah, blah, But I have to remember why I joined this group. I left a list controlled by the having a hard time remembering now...the Kartel or something like that. Their restrictions and then not following their own restrictions totally pissed me off. And I'd been on that list for several years before it was taken over. Therefore, I'm here. And while Tom's Apple/Mac attitude can get tiresome, it's better then getting censored. If you don't believe me, go to one of the Kartel lists and find out for yourself. May the Kartel lists die in hell!!! No violence intended there. On Jan 15, 2009, at 2:52 PM, mike wrote: Yes, we know Tom, you hate windows. We know, you've flogged it to DEATH...we all know. It's not a secret. Everyone agrees with you now, you've beaten everyone to your side. Windows is horrid and terrible and a scourge. So can you possibly, possibly stop now? You refuse to answer direct questions and just keep beating that same dead horse. We'll leave the 'tom hates windows thread' alone if you can just shut your mouth. Yes I'm being rude but I am *so* tired of your childish name calling when someone doesn't agree with your opinion. Grow up or get a life outside of your one track blah blah blah. On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 3:17 PM, Tom Piwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote: There is just no helping some people. You probably think Windows is cool too. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * -- Make sure you support your local CarbonONset programs! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * The friend is the man who knows all about you, and still likes you. - Elbert Hubbard * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Family Project
Yes, we know Tom, you hate windows. We know, you've flogged it to DEATH...we all know. It's not a secret. Everyone agrees with you now, you've beaten everyone to your side. Windows is horrid and terrible and a scourge. I use Windows all the time. Probably half the time most days. Why is it okay for me to be pissy about Apple's problems, but blasphemy to write similar things about MS? Anyway, the topic of this thread is building a game PC. I'm not writing to not do it. All I'm saying is that one should not waste money on snake oil. Having studied electroacoustics in college I do have some background in the topic. I know how headphones work and I know how ears work. 5.1 headphones is nonsense. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Family Project
Would it make a difference if they started with an off-lease Dell workstation from http://www.dfsdirectsales.com/, or are those too old? They have some drawbacks as gaming machines, to put it charitably. Principally in the areas of graphics capability and power supply. Not to mention proprietary parts. I hate to say it but those machines even in their youth weren't designed for the mission. They're nearly identical to the issue HP machine I use at work. Perfectly good for what they were made to do (somewhat overpriced IMHO since you can get a new barebones kit at say Tiger Direct for less money with a dual core processor and much bigger hard drive). One of the advantages of rolling your own is that you get to make the decisions about what is important and what isn't. And you can spec industry standard parts from known sources that are separately warrantied, or you can go OEM and save money. You'll know exactly what's in the box. It isn't necessary to mortgage the farm to build a decent gaming computer, though. Well under $1000 will get you a high end mobo, a mid range graphics card, big SATA hard drive, optical drive, and a big, name brand power supply with all modular cabling, Windows XP Pro SP3 (still the best gaming OS) and all the bits (case, keyboard, mouse, etc). Monitor not included. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Family Project
I can see a gamer buying a new graphics card with each game purchased. My experience has been that mid range graphics cards are usually going to be adequate for about half the processor lifespan. My P4 platform got one midlife graphics upgrade about 3 years in and wasn't retired (as a game machine) until 2006. I figure I'll run what I have now until 2010 and then look at an upgrade. No reason to do that at this time, though. In 2006 what I put in was VERY high end, I really haven't run the cost analysis. It's a fact that gaming hardware depriciates faster than a Zimbabwe dollar, though. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Family Project
Tom Piwowar Yes, we know Tom, you hate windows. We know, you've flogged it to DEATH...we all know. It's not a secret. Everyone agrees with you now, you've beaten everyone to your side. Windows is horrid and terrible and a scourge. I use Windows all the time. Probably half the time most days. Why is it okay for me to be pissy about Apple's problems, but blasphemy to write similar things about MS? It's how much you heap on MS versus how much you heap on Apple. This doesn't mention the level of the vitriol you have for one over the other. -- Take care | This clown speaks for himself, his job doesn't Wayne D. | supply this, at least not directly Very good, Einstein - but next time show your work * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Family Project
dfsdirectsales off lease machines seem to me to be older and more expensive than the outlet machines db Eric S. Sande wrote: Would it make a difference if they started with an off-lease Dell workstation from http://www.dfsdirectsales.com/, or are those too old? They have some drawbacks as gaming machines, to put it charitably. Principally in the areas of graphics capability and power supply. Not to mention proprietary parts. I hate to say it but those machines even in their youth weren't designed for the mission. They're nearly identical to the issue HP machine I use at work. Perfectly good for what they were made to do (somewhat overpriced IMHO since you can get a new barebones kit at say Tiger Direct for less money with a dual core processor and much bigger hard drive). One of the advantages of rolling your own is that you get to make the decisions about what is important and what isn't. And you can spec industry standard parts from known sources that are separately warrantied, or you can go OEM and save money. You'll know exactly what's in the box. It isn't necessary to mortgage the farm to build a decent gaming computer, though. Well under $1000 will get you a high end mobo, a mid range graphics card, big SATA hard drive, optical drive, and a big, name brand power supply with all modular cabling, Windows XP Pro SP3 (still the best gaming OS) and all the bits (case, keyboard, mouse, etc). Monitor not included. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Family Project
On Jan 15, 2009, at 5:45 PM, Wayne Dernoncourt wrote: Tom Piwowar Yes, we know Tom, you hate windows. We know, you've flogged it to DEATH...we all know. It's not a secret. Everyone agrees with you now, you've beaten everyone to your side. Windows is horrid and terrible and a scourge. I use Windows all the time. Probably half the time most days. Why is it okay for me to be pissy about Apple's problems, but blasphemy to write similar things about MS? It's how much you heap on MS versus how much you heap on Apple. This doesn't mention the level of the vitriol you have for one over the other. Oh come on, the answer to this is easy. Doesn't MS have app. 90% market share? And if so, shouldn't they receive 90% of the bashing? Think about it, how many bad things have you said about Yugos lately? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Family Project
Oh come on, the answer to this is easy. Doesn't MS have app. 90% market share? And if so, shouldn't they receive 90% of the bashing? Think about it, how many bad things have you said about Yugos lately? I could not have said it better myself. Now the WFBs need to stop whining and get back on topic. Do you have something pertinent to contribute? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Family Project
Not really. At least on this thread, but what the hey, this thread was so off topic it's not like it mattered. On Jan 15, 2009, at 7:08 PM, Tom Piwowar wrote: Oh come on, the answer to this is easy. Doesn't MS have app. 90% market share? And if so, shouldn't they receive 90% of the bashing? Think about it, how many bad things have you said about Yugos lately? I could not have said it better myself. Now the WFBs need to stop whining and get back on topic. Do you have something pertinent to contribute? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * The friend is the man who knows all about you, and still likes you. - Elbert Hubbard * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Family Project
Not really. At least on this thread, but what the hey, this thread was so off topic it's not like it mattered. It definitely has a high noise to signal ratio. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Family Project
Wait a minute, she tells you front right and then you hear it as coming from the front, and when she tells you rear right you hear it as coming from the rear? That sounds like it could be suggestion to me. As an experiment, try it on an unsuspecting friend with the headphones on backwards and see what they say. It is my understanding that you get a crude sense of direction from the slight time difference between the time it takes a sound to reach each ear, and you get accuracy from moving your head and additional cues such as reflected sound. In high school, I remember reading about an elegant experiment demonstrating the importance of head motion in directional hearing. In the experiment, microphones were attached to the ears of a mannequin head and connected to headphones of a test subject, with both heads pointing the same direction. When the mannequin head was fixed, the subject had very little accuracy in determining the direction that sounds came from. But when the mannequin's head was strapped on top the subject's head and could move with the subject, then the subject's accuracy was greatly improved. Supposedly, 3D headphones work by exaggerating the interference patterns you naturally hear by having sounds from a source reach each ear at different times. To me, this sounds more like producing a hyper-realistic sensation than contributing much in the way of extra information. Everyone's sensory experience is interpreted, and there are experiments galore that show that what we hear depends an awful lot on our expectations and visual cues. So it could be for example that in your game you hear someone sneaking up behind you because you don't see them on the screen. Come on over than and I'll show you. When she says Front Right it definitely sounds forward of when she says Rear Right. No movement is needed. It may be nice to factor in movement for pinning down a noise in the game world, but more often in games I just want to know if I'm being attacked from the rear. There's little time for waving the head around to try to figure out _where_ behind me the sound is coming from. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
[CGUYS] Family Project
I have a daughter that has become intrigued by online gaming. In order to further her interest, bond with her and (hopefully) to save some money, we want to make a family project of building a gaming computer for her. We have Comcast Cable as an ISP. I have built a computer before (for the office) but the details of a gaming computer needs are a bit arcane for me. We think that we can keep the monitor (LCD) she has. I am under the impression that we start with a case and a power supply (400W or better). After that, I think that the component parts of MoBo, CPU, hard drive, graphics card and operating system need to be picked as to best compatibility. This is where my knowledge begins to lack. Can anyone give me a flowchart process for picking the parts and assembly that would be a good jumping off point for this project? I know that you can always spend more money but I would like to see options and places that we can cut corners. I work in the entertainment business(on the audio side) and often have to suggest upgrades to PA systems for musicians to get the most bang for their buck. My general rule of thumb is to buy the best equipment you can afford that is the human contact point (Best microphones, best speaker cabinets). Is there such a rule of thumb in the gaming computer world? Tracy Foust **A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/10075x1215855013x1201028747/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=De cemailfooterNO62) * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Family Project
I can see how building such a gaming computer would be an interesting project in itself but my advice to you is that you should just buy one but Dell Surplus in the next two weeks... before Jan 31st when their business quarter concludes. (They always dump product via the surplus warehouse just prior to quarter's end) You can't buy the components and OS and put it together for the price Dell or anyone else... would normally charge you for a full priced massed produced gaming computer... not to speak of the warranty they provide ...because of the IMMENSE economies of scale advantage they have. (And they deliver in 5 days!) Secondly, a flow chart isn't going to save you from the very substantial chipsets and component compatibility research task building such a glitch free machine is going to entail. MB's, chips, chipsets, video cards, OS's etc are not PP. Your best bet there would be to follow some tech sites build a gaming computer yourself instructions... if you can find a current one. And you will spend substantially more doing so than buying a pre-manufactured outlet Dell and end up with no warranty and a noisy machine since quiet systems technology isn't available piecemeal unless you go with expensive water cooled tech. Doesn't mean you wouldn't have fun doing it... :) db trac...@aol.com wrote: I have a daughter that has become intrigued by online gaming. In order to further her interest, bond with her and (hopefully) to save some money, we want to make a family project of building a gaming computer for her. We have Comcast Cable as an ISP. I have built a computer before (for the office) but the details of a gaming computer needs are a bit arcane for me. We think that we can keep the monitor (LCD) she has. I am under the impression that we start with a case and a power supply (400W or better). After that, I think that the component parts of MoBo, CPU, hard drive, graphics card and operating system need to be picked as to best compatibility. This is where my knowledge begins to lack. Can anyone give me a flowchart process for picking the parts and assembly that would be a good jumping off point for this project? I know that you can always spend more money but I would like to see options and places that we can cut corners. I work in the entertainment business(on the audio side) and often have to suggest upgrades to PA systems for musicians to get the most bang for their buck. My general rule of thumb is to buy the best equipment you can afford that is the human contact point (Best microphones, best speaker cabinets). Is there such a rule of thumb in the gaming computer world? Tracy Foust **A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/10075x1215855013x1201028747/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=De cemailfooterNO62) * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Family Project
The only way to build a game machine yourself these days is to go buy an issue of PC Gamer magazine and turn to the Hard Stuff section. There, you'll find cheap, medium, and dream system components listed. You usually can't go wrong building their medium system. Sometimes you may want to get the video card listed in the Dream system, but only get one of them - not the two card SLI config they usually list. The reason I can't just tell you what it says is because of the video cards, which are your primary concern for gaming. The models change all the time, and the model numbers mean absolutely nothing (higher numbers are sometimes inferior cards). I can't disagree with db that economically it would be cheaper to find a good system on sale. But building your own custom system has many advantages, not the least of which is gaining a familiarity with (and losing one's fear of) computer components. On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 9:05 AM, trac...@aol.com wrote: I have a daughter that has become intrigued by online gaming. In order to further her interest, bond with her and (hopefully) to save some money, we want to make a family project of building a gaming computer for her. We have Comcast Cable as an ISP. I have built a computer before (for the office) but the details of a gaming computer needs are a bit arcane for me. We think that we can keep the monitor (LCD) she has. I am under the impression that we start with a case and a power supply (400W or better). After that, I think that the component parts of MoBo, CPU, hard drive, graphics card and operating system need to be picked as to best compatibility. This is where my knowledge begins to lack. Can anyone give me a flowchart process for picking the parts and assembly that would be a good jumping off point for this project? I know that you can always spend more money but I would like to see options and places that we can cut corners. I work in the entertainment business(on the audio side) and often have to suggest upgrades to PA systems for musicians to get the most bang for their buck. My general rule of thumb is to buy the best equipment you can afford that is the human contact point (Best microphones, best speaker cabinets). Is there such a rule of thumb in the gaming computer world? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Family Project
if AMD' and dual core are ok for online gaming, the Compaqs from office depot are extremely inexpensive, and a very good start point. an upgrade video card may be necessary. the very nice price units do not pop up on line, but they are there when called by part number and only for the week the brochure is valid. the brochure can be found online. they deliver(at least to my house) for no charge. i do pay sales tax. these guys have a lot of components, and pretty good descriptions. http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/Home.jsp over 200 mb, over 200video cards. regards jer At 09:05 AM 1/14/2009, you wrote: I have a daughter that has become intrigued by online gaming. In order to further her interest, bond with her and (hopefully) to save some money, we want to make a family project of building a gaming computer for her. We have Comcast Cable as an ISP. I have built a computer before (for the office) but the details of a gaming computer needs are a bit arcane for me. We think that we can keep the monitor (LCD) she has. I am under the impression that we start with a case and a power supply (400W or better). After that, I think that the component parts of MoBo, CPU, hard drive, graphics card and operating system need to be picked as to best compatibility. This is where my knowledge begins to lack. Can anyone give me a flowchart process for picking the parts and assembly that would be a good jumping off point for this project? I know that you can always spend more money but I would like to see options and places that we can cut corners. I work in the entertainment business(on the audio side) and often have to suggest upgrades to PA systems for musicians to get the most bang for their buck. My general rule of thumb is to buy the best equipment you can afford that is the human contact point (Best microphones, best speaker cabinets). Is there such a rule of thumb in the gaming computer world? Tracy Foust **A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/10075x1215855013x1201028747/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=De cemailfooterNO62) * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Family Project
I have a daughter that has become intrigued by online gaming. In order to further her interest, bond with her and (hopefully) to save some money, we want to make a family project of building a gaming computer for her. Looks like a fine family project. Since you are doing professional audio you probably have seen all kinds of simple electronics put into a snazzy box and sold to musicians for way too much money. To a large extent I suspect that gamers are like musicians. Vendors take advantage of their lack of technical knowledge and overcharge. I also agree with the other posters that a ready-built system is going to cost a lot less than one you build from scratch. I would go for a good ready-built system followed by a systems analysis to identify the parts that would benefit the most from modding. First question is what kind of online games? Is this female going to be more interested in first-person shooters or in social MUD games? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Family Project
Actually, I think these are about the same now. The #1 video game today is clearly World of Warcraft (WOW) with some 10-12 million players. It's the old text MUD with graphics, which makes it an FPS. Social text MUDs have, by these standards, virtually disappeared. First question is what kind of online games? Is this female going to be more interested in first-person shooters or in social MUD games? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Family Project
I can't say I agree. You may get a cheaper system, but in the end not a better built system. There is also the warranty, buy any computer and you'll get a 1 year warranty, or if you pay quite a lot extra a 3 year. Some companies have longer warranties like cyberypower (haven't checked lately but used to have 3 year warranties). If you get your hard drive(s), I suggest two any way you build it, but if you get your hard drives soon, you can find 5 year warranties on them currently. Last three times I bought motherboards for home built systems for others, I bought the extended warranty from Fry's electronics which put 3 years instant exchange on the board for 30 extra dollars. Keep with known brands for motherboards like asus, gigabyte...even ECS has some good midrange to low end boards that do just fine for most gaming. Check out reviews on newegg.com for other parts like video cards etc. Couple of a days ago there were terabyte seagates on at fry.com for 109, 5 year warranty. Now I check they are 104sheesh I wish I had a couple hundred and I would buy two for a good data mirror for my computers to back up to. http://www.frys.com/product/5478279?site=frysecampaign Mike On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 10:32 AM, db db...@att.net wrote: I can see how building such a gaming computer would be an interesting project in itself but my advice to you is that you should just buy one but Dell Surplus in the next two weeks... before Jan 31st when their business quarter concludes. (They always dump product via the surplus warehouse just prior to quarter's end) You can't buy the components and OS and put it together for the price Dell or anyone else... would normally charge you for a full priced massed produced gaming computer... not to speak of the warranty they provide ...because of the IMMENSE economies of scale advantage they have. (And they deliver in 5 days!) Secondly, a flow chart isn't going to save you from the very substantial chipsets and component compatibility research task building such a glitch free machine is going to entail. MB's, chips, chipsets, video cards, OS's etc are not PP. Your best bet there would be to follow some tech sites build a gaming computer yourself instructions... if you can find a current one. And you will spend substantially more doing so than buying a pre-manufactured outlet Dell and end up with no warranty and a noisy machine since quiet systems technology isn't available piecemeal unless you go with expensive water cooled tech. Doesn't mean you wouldn't have fun doing it... :) db trac...@aol.com wrote: I have a daughter that has become intrigued by online gaming. In order to further her interest, bond with her and (hopefully) to save some money, we want to make a family project of building a gaming computer for her. We have Comcast Cable as an ISP. I have built a computer before (for the office) but the details of a gaming computer needs are a bit arcane for me. We think that we can keep the monitor (LCD) she has. I am under the impression that we start with a case and a power supply (400W or better). After that, I think that the component parts of MoBo, CPU, hard drive, graphics card and operating system need to be picked as to best compatibility. This is where my knowledge begins to lack. Can anyone give me a flowchart process for picking the parts and assembly that would be a good jumping off point for this project?I know that you can always spend more money but I would like to see options and places that we can cut corners. I work in the entertainment business(on the audio side) and often have to suggest upgrades to PA systems for musicians to get the most bang for their buck. My general rule of thumb is to buy the best equipment you can afford that is the human contact point (Best microphones, best speaker cabinets). Is there such a rule of thumb in the gaming computer world? Tracy Foust **A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! ( http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/10075x1215855013x1201028747/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=De cemailfooterNO62) * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * -- Make sure you support your local CarbonONset programs!
Re: [CGUYS] Family Project
Mostly correct, although when gaming...or at the movies or anywhere else where 5.1+ is in use, you don't move your head. Most of us can pick up the sounds coming from different directions without moving...remind me not to sit behind Tom at any movies. On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 4:50 PM, Tom Piwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote: Let's not forget, for a gaming system you need 5.1 sound. Not only 5.1 speakers, but a good 5.1 headset too. I use one of the Turtle Beach models. 5.1 headsets? Ho ho ho. I think this is a great example of a fool and his money are soon parted. Exactly what you are goping to need to watch out for. Fact: Most of us (except for the Martians directing Windows 7) have 2 ears. Fact: Headphones inject sound directly into each of our 2 ears. Fact: When the head moves the ears move too and so do the headphones. Fact: The sound field experienced by a headphone wearer does not change as they move their heads. The idea behind 5.1 is to create a complex sound field around the listener to simulate three dimensions. The listener perceives the three dimensions by _moving their heads_. Headphones are 2.0. When you move your head the 2.0 moves with your head. Thus you will not percieve any change in what you hear and therefore no simulated three dimensions. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * -- Make sure you support your local CarbonONset programs! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Family Project
Oh and aside from not wanting to sit behind Tom at the movies: http://www.jr.com/akr8-surround-pc-headphone/pe/TBS_AKR8/#productTabDetails Some argue the merits of such headphones, others hear a considerable difference between these and regular headphones. Fact: Tom should stop calling people fools every time he disagrees with someone, his opinion is not fact no matter how much he wants to to be. Mike On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 5:11 PM, mike xha...@gmail.com wrote: Mostly correct, although when gaming...or at the movies or anywhere else where 5.1+ is in use, you don't move your head. Most of us can pick up the sounds coming from different directions without moving...remind me not to sit behind Tom at any movies. On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 4:50 PM, Tom Piwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote: Let's not forget, for a gaming system you need 5.1 sound. Not only 5.1 speakers, but a good 5.1 headset too. I use one of the Turtle Beach models. 5.1 headsets? Ho ho ho. I think this is a great example of a fool and his money are soon parted. Exactly what you are goping to need to watch out for. Fact: Most of us (except for the Martians directing Windows 7) have 2 ears. Fact: Headphones inject sound directly into each of our 2 ears. Fact: When the head moves the ears move too and so do the headphones. Fact: The sound field experienced by a headphone wearer does not change as they move their heads. The idea behind 5.1 is to create a complex sound field around the listener to simulate three dimensions. The listener perceives the three dimensions by _moving their heads_. Headphones are 2.0. When you move your head the 2.0 moves with your head. Thus you will not percieve any change in what you hear and therefore no simulated three dimensions. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * -- Make sure you support your local CarbonONset programs! -- Make sure you support your local CarbonONset programs! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Family Project
Is there such a rule of thumb in the gaming computer world? Yes. Your graphics subsystem and power supply are the places to spend the bucks. 400W is not nearly enough to run a modern graphics card and processor, plus at a minimum one optical and two or three hard drives, plus other stuff. I had the PS issue on my last build: http://esande.net/features/conroe.html Not exactly professional photography but it gives the idea. This is a fairly old machine but it still rocks, and contrary to opinion it cost less than the equivalent Dell when I built it. Much less. Most folks don't seem to get that you need a LOT of graphics horsepower when gaming. This is completely at variance with what you need for a general purpose office computer. In my experience, that is. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Family Project
Let's not forget, for a gaming system you need 5.1 sound. Not only 5.1 speakers, but a good 5.1 headset too. I use one of the Turtle Beach models. This is news to me. I run the digital stream over an optical cable to a DAC which can feed either my headphones or my main power amp over balanced cables. The DAC functions as the preamp, in other words. I have no use for surround sound at this time. Not that there's anything wrong with surround, but it isn't a make or break issue for gaming. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
