On Nov 30, 2009, at 10:41 AM, Adil Godrej wrote:
P.S. Okay, I'm done. It's going to be a long week at work. I'll
accept whatever you send my way, but I'm afraid I will not be able
to respond. Yeah, I'm running away from the fight. It's only the
ethical thing to do (being as I'm at work). (Di
Adil Godrej wrote:
P.S. Okay, I'm done. It's going to be a long week at work. I'll accept
whatever you send my way, but I'm afraid I will not be able to
respond. Yeah, I'm running away from the fight. It's only the ethical
thing to do (being as I'm at work). (Did I just hear a collective sigh
At 06:30 PM 11/29/2009, you wrote:
Date:Sun, 29 Nov 2009 18:19:22 -0500
From:tjpa
Subject: Re: Gulag
On Nov 29, 2009, at 5:32 PM, Adil Godrej wrote:
> Okay, I see what you are getting at. Point well taken. Although I
> think that killing is more about morals that ethics. Otherwise we'd
> Doctors, nurses and teachers have powerful professional associations.
> They're highly educated professionals.
Professional organizations are somewhat different than labor unions,
and they try to distinguish themselves from unions. I think that
professional organizations place more emphasis
On Nov 29, 2009, at 3:18 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote:
The comment I made about the ten commandments is about God's
judgment on me as an individual within his kingdom of grace. They
define our relationship with him.
The problem in the rectitude business is how to not lose the rich
evil
Easy to say sitting at your desk in this country. The poorest of us in the
US have not an inkling what real poverty is.
On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 4:19 PM, tjpa wrote:
> On Nov 29, 2009, at 5:32 PM, Adil Godrej wrote:
>
>
>
> My reading of the farmer suicide in India was that these farmers thought
On Nov 29, 2009, at 5:32 PM, Adil Godrej wrote:
Okay, I see what you are getting at. Point well taken. Although I
think that killing is more about morals that ethics. Otherwise we'd
never be able to defend against attacks against our selves. If a
farmer commits suicide so that the government
At 01:04 PM 11/29/2009, you wrote:
Date:Sun, 29 Nov 2009 13:04:14 -0500
From:tjpa
Subject: Re: Gulag
On Nov 28, 2009, at 8:06 PM, Adil Godrej wrote:
> A person living on Rs 2/day (about 4 cents) in India typically has
> one meal of rice every two days. No matter how ethical he is, he
>
you make the typical judgement. Religious Grace is not world freedom
to do anything.
The world sets standards and laws that must be obeyed. Break that
law and pay a civil penalty.
If it be a business fined or an individual sentenced to a penalty so be it.
The comment I made about the ten c
Yah didn't you know monsanto has been GM food for thousands of years. They
have laboratories that date back to the ice age.
On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 11:04 AM, tjpa wrote:
> On Nov 28, 2009, at 8:06 PM, Adil Godrej wrote:
>
>> A person living on Rs 2/day (about 4 cents) in India typically has one
On Nov 28, 2009, at 8:06 PM, Adil Godrej wrote:
A person living on Rs 2/day (about 4 cents) in India typically has
one meal of rice every two days. No matter how ethical he is, he
"cannot afford to be ethical" in those circumstances. Telling him
that it is unethical to eat genetically-modifi
On Nov 28, 2009, at 2:09 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote:
I can be judged by the Ten Commandments but I would rather be saved
by Grace.
Mass murderers the world over rejoice.
*
** List info, subscription management, lis
As some wag put it, they are not called the Ten Suggestions.
tjpa wrote:
On Nov 27, 2009, at 6:03 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote:
I also stated that business should be run in as ethically as
possible. Do you consider that ethical?
Definitely not. The "as possible" is a cop out. It is like p
You don't throw a drowning man a sandwich.
We like to pontificate when we really should be helping.
I donate extra computer equipment all the time. I give away
computers when I can to the right people.
They do not care if it is a Mac or a PC as long as it works and they can work.
Stewart
At 01:58 PM 11/28/2009, you wrote:
Date:Sat, 28 Nov 2009 13:58:12 -0500
From:tjpa
Subject: Re: Gulag?
On Nov 27, 2009, at 9:20 PM, Adil Godrej wrote:
> Obviously, the whole thing is quite complicated, specially when you
> add in those people who cannot afford to be ethical if they are t
Which is similar to a stopped clock is right at least twice a day.
Stewart
At 01:14 PM 11/28/2009, you wrote:
On Sat, Nov 28, 2009 at 2:07 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall <
popoz...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> No but two Wrights made an airplane.
>
> Three lefts do make a right.
--
John Duncan Yoyo
-
On Sat, Nov 28, 2009 at 2:07 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall <
popoz...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> No but two Wrights made an airplane.
>
> Three lefts do make a right.
--
John Duncan Yoyo
---o)
*
** L
No but two Wrights made an airplane.
Stewart
At 12:52 PM 11/28/2009, you wrote:
I think they call this "two wrongs make a right."
Rev. Stewart A. Marshall
mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net
Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org
Ozark, AL SL 82
I don't know about you but I do not want to be judged by the Ten
Commandments as I would fail.
When Is aid as ethically as possible I leave in the fact that
everyone is going to screw up somehow sometime.
I can be judged by the Ten Commandments but I would rather be saved by Grace.
Stewart
On Nov 27, 2009, at 9:20 PM, Adil Godrej wrote:
Obviously, the whole thing is quite complicated, specially when you
add in those people who cannot afford to be ethical if they are to
survive. Let's take the much-maligned WalMart. Many people who work
there also shop there because that's what
On Nov 27, 2009, at 6:03 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote:
But we have also caused some of this behavior as we demand the
lowest priced product available.
Plus I think Wall Street is also responsible as they demand that a
business publicly held show a profit.
I think they call this "two wrong
On Nov 27, 2009, at 6:03 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote:
I also stated that business should be run in as ethically as
possible. Do you consider that ethical?
Definitely not. The "as possible" is a cop out. It is like preaching
the Ten Commandments as "optional as convenient."
**
On Nov 27, 2009, at 2:45 PM, Constance Warner wrote:
Sounds like part of the message here is that you ought to put up
with whatever your employer wants to dish out, and if not you're a
lazy bum. The employer rules, and anything else is irrelevant.
Of course, "Die Religion ist das Opium des
You are 100% right.
I like to buy from companies I know. I like to buy local.
When I cant do that I pick and choose.
Stewart
At 08:20 PM 11/27/2009, you wrote:
Yes, you did state that business should be run as ethically as
possible. And, yes, I do consider "as ethically as possible" to be
e
On Fri, Nov 27, 2009 at 3:51 PM, b_s-wilk wrote:
> Doctors, nurses and teachers have powerful professional associations.
> They're highly educated professionals.
Professional organizations are somewhat different than labor unions,
and they try to distinguish themselves from unions. I think th
Yes, you did state that business should be run as ethically as
possible. And, yes, I do consider "as ethically as possible" to be
ethical (if that was your question). Obviously, one can always
improve, but I do recognize that there will be compromises sometimes.
(Just saw "The Crime of Padre Am
I also stated that business should be run in as ethically as
possible. Do you consider that ethical?
But we have also caused some of this behavior as we demand the lowest
priced product available.
Plus I think Wall Street is also responsible as they demand that a
business publicly held show
Quoting tjpa :
On Nov 27, 2009, at 11:42 AM, Constance Warner wrote:
[. . .]
expense. Instead, they're being ripped off to pile up surplus
value in the bank accounts of their corporate employers.
This is what happens when spreadsheet jockeys get control of the
corporation. They don't unde
Okay, I resisted this discussion until this email of yours, Stewart.
Yes, business has a right to make a profit. But, does it have a right
to maximize its profits by maximizing the exploitation of its
workers? If the answer to that is yes, then I'd say you have no
business of being in the busin
On Nov 27, 2009, at 12:01 PM, Stewart Marshall wrote:
Tom jump in here and tell me if you do not expect your employees to
make money and value for your firm.
I expect it to be a two way street, a symmetric relationship. Neither
employee nor employes should be acting in an abusive manner.
I
I do not disagree with anything you have written. Personally, I
think that a prime reason that high-tech computing "professionals," as
they see themselves, shun the thought of organizing for their own
betterment is because they tend to associate such organization of
workers as being "blue colla
On Nov 27, 2009, at 11:42 AM, Constance Warner wrote:
It bothers me when I see corporations using HR practices that make
them look a lot like turn-of-the-century coal barons. (You can look
that up if you like--I'm sure Wikipedia has something on them.)
Where are the Molly McGuires when we n
So the union member is just lying? Typical Tom Tactic. Just keep fearing
your imaginary neomicrosofticons.
PSST...if you hadn't noticed, the progressives are in charge cowboy...
On Fri, Nov 27, 2009 at 1:14 PM, tjpa wrote:
> On Nov 26, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote:
>
>> One o
On Nov 27, 2009, at 11:42 AM, Constance Warner wrote:
I thought that the original point was that computer workers were,
basically, asked to work on hardship schedules without extra pay,
and under constant threat of being downsized or outsourced. These
people are computer professionals who h
On Nov 26, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote:
One of my members works for a contractor and is represented by a
union. He said one of the problems with is union is that it uses
LCD to make the standards. Lowest Common Denominator.
This is just more Fox News style propaganda. Uni
"If people are not willing to work then they are lazy. If they are
not willing to stay gainfully employed they are lazy...Work for
anyone but yourself and your value is what is set by your employer
and you are expected to make money for your employer or you no longer
have a job...Part of t
I don't know where you got that, but you cannot have a business
unless you are making a profit.
There is a difference between making a profit ethically and making a
profit unethically.
I think that is the real difference. Unless you feel businesses
should not make a profit?
I happen to be
Now let me get this straight. You are saying that employers should
screw as much work out of their employees as they possibly can,
regardless of labor laws, custom, the health of their workers,
human decency, and the employers' long-term best interests and
enlightened self-interest? And
Constance I was talking about the comment on Hispanic workers.
If people are not willing to work then they are lazy. If they are
not willing to stay gainfully employed they are lazy.
I think way too much emphasis is placed on workers freedom and not
enough on work.
The working conditions i
I guess I don't quite understand why the employment situation of
illegal aliens in the construction and food processing industry
reflects NEGATIVELY on the moral character and industriousness of
U.S. computer workers.
I just don't see how the current situation proves that "we have bred
la
I cannot speak to the construction industry but can tell you about
the food processing industry.
When I worked for a major animal processing plant they had a 100%
turn around of personnel every year.
Of that number the immigrants were the ones who stayed while the
Anglos and African America
On Nov 24, 2009, at 11:11 AM, Tony B wrote:
Around here it's got nothing to do with extra hours. It's construction
jobs being lost to 'Mexicans' (anyone that speaks spanish). I've heard
it from both sides though - the employers complain the local guys just
won't show up on time consistently (or a
On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 12:44 PM, betty wrote:
> Unlike people who are captured and forced into slavery, the high tech
> workers choose that for themselves because they're too "proud",
> short-sighted, uninformed, disconnected, to organize. Hotel workers
> organized and improved their lot, why no
Most employment laws regard these virtually forced servitude
situations to be voluntary in nature. In other words. if the worker
doesn't like it, they are typically free to leave and get another job
elsewhere. Problem is, it can be quite difficult to find a similar
job that fits the same set o
On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 10:08 PM, tjpa wrote:
> That's why there is such a vast propaganda engine pushing these ideas --
> stuff like Fox News. Too often I encounter working people whose thoughts
> have been thoroughly clouded. They support exactly those things that run
> counter to their interes
On Nov 24, 2009, at 9:27 PM, b_s-wilk wrote:
I've worked with many people like that. Surprising thing is that
they're mostly libertarian types who shudder at the thought of
having union membership and protection. Even a professional
association to negotiate contracts is an anathema. Most don
I've worked with many people like that. Surprising thing is that they're
mostly libertarian types who shudder at the thought of having union
membership and protection. Even a professional association to negotiate
contracts is an anathema. Most don't even have contracts.
They're their own worst
At least we don't have to worry about putting gas in the car or paying
the mortgage.
cb via iphone.
_
On Nov 24, 2009, at 16:32, mike wrote:
You have seen the unemployment numbers right? I'm not saying this
is good,
but if my choice is working my ass off and feeding
In my opinion, the answer to your last question is ... the one that has
been around forever... since the middle ages ... since the stone age ...
since the dawn of time.
If leaders/ bosses/ chiefs of countries, towns, corporations, companies,
can lead "others" to make a profit for themselves,
You have seen the unemployment numbers right? I'm not saying this is good,
but if my choice is working my ass off and feeding my kids or not having a
job. Easy choice.
On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 2:15 PM, Reid Katan wrote:
> Quoting "phartz...@gmail.com" :
>
> current job. He leaves for work as
> I really wonder, though, why employers are treating programmers (and
> other computer professionals) so badly--it's not in their long-term
> best interests or their enlightened self-interest.They depend on
> you guys--they can't do ANYTHING without you. Besides, an editor
> with a grudge can
Quoting "phartz...@gmail.com" :
current job. He leaves for work as the sun rises and usually never
gets home until after dark. He has not taken a single day of vacation
in the two years he has now worked for this new employer. His hobby
and personal interests languish through disuse and being
Hate to pour gasoline on the fire, but pretty nearly every type of
job can be outsourced, shipped abroad, contracted out to a contract
worker (who's actually an employee, but who doesn't get any benefits
and perks), given to an illegal, or--a Washington area favorite--
assigned to an unpaid
On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 11:11 AM, Tony B wrote:
> Okay, I think I see the 'new' take on it. Or, at least I see it from
> Wired's perspective.
>
> Around here it's got nothing to do with extra hours. It's construction
> jobs being lost to 'Mexicans' (anyone that speaks spanish). I've heard
> it fr
Okay, I think I see the 'new' take on it. Or, at least I see it from
Wired's perspective.
Around here it's got nothing to do with extra hours. It's construction
jobs being lost to 'Mexicans' (anyone that speaks spanish). I've heard
it from both sides though - the employers complain the local guys
On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 9:35 AM, Tony B wrote:
> Hardly News. The US enjoyed many years of great affluence after being
> the sole 'winner' of WW2, but aside from that this 'virtual slavery'
> has always been the norm. Gives you a great admiration for the labor
> organizers, until someone points o
Hardly News. The US enjoyed many years of great affluence after being
the sole 'winner' of WW2, but aside from that this 'virtual slavery'
has always been the norm. Gives you a great admiration for the labor
organizers, until someone points out that's socialism and must be
stamped out at all costs.
I was at the library yesterday afternoon. While I was there, I read
an article in an issue of "Wired" that discussed the cubicle-type
workplaces where so many work in the field of computer programing and
coding. The article was dealing with the fact that many of the
workers who toil in these pl
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