On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 4:50 AM, Peter Gutmann
wrote:
>
> Is it a sign that your e-Monopoly-money has arrived when trojans start
> targeting it?
>
> http://www.net-security.org/malware_news.php?id=1752
>
> (My guess is that since trojans already steal everything they can, including
> lots of stuff
Is it a sign that your e-Monopoly-money has arrived when trojans start
targeting it?
http://www.net-security.org/malware_news.php?id=1752
(My guess is that since trojans already steal everything they can, including
lots of stuff with no obvious value, that the authors just added Bitcoin
wallets
> On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 9:44 PM, James A. Donald wrote:
>> On 2011-06-12 8:53 AM, Nico Williams wrote:
>> [SNIP]
>> Greece is going broke from too much vote buying. Governments are reluctant
>> let Greece go broke, for fear of contagion. So they lend the Greeks more
>> money, which is another
On 2011-06-15 7:58 AM, Nico Williams wrote:
Uncivilized state actors will not give a damn about your crypto. They
will torture you, your friends, your family.
If they can find you.
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On 2011-06-15 7:58 AM, Nico Williams wrote:
Let's say you have an unbreakable code.
Which we do.
But there's still traffic
analysis, and even with onion routing and such, you don't know if your
peers are ratting you out,
If one of the mixers is my own, I know that that mixer is not ratting
On Tue, Jun 14, 2011 at 4:30 PM, StealthMonger
wrote:
> Nico Williams writes:
>
>> Crypto will NOT protect you from the state.
>
> Hmm? Protection from the state is the very reason some of us are
> here. Even Philip Zimmermann wrote twenty years ago [1]
In a pinch crypto will not protect you.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
Nico Williams writes:
> Crypto will NOT protect you from the state.
Hmm? Protection from the state is the very reason some of us are
here. Even Philip Zimmermann wrote twenty years ago [1]
Why Do You Need PGP? ... you may be doing something t
On Tue, Jun 14, 2011 at 4:17 AM, James A. Donald wrote:
> On 2011-06-14 2:19 PM, Steven Bellovin wrote:
>> In my opinion, the post you
>> were replying to is worse than impolite; it's racist crap that
>> -- apart from being factually incorrect -- is utterly irrelevant
>> to anything even vaguely
On 2011-06-14 2:19 PM, Steven Bellovin wrote:
In my opinion, the post you
were replying to is worse than impolite; it's racist crap that
-- apart from being factually incorrect -- is utterly irrelevant
to anything even vaguely connected to this list.
The question is, should we rely on cryptogr
On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 11:19 PM, Steven Bellovin wrote:
> Thank you for saying something. In my opinion, the post you
> were replying to is worse than impolite; it's racist crap that
> -- apart from being factually incorrect -- is utterly irrelevant
> to anything even vaguely connected to this l
Nicholas Bohm write:
>>> Now I find I can exchange a little over five bitcoins for a 50
>>> Amazon gift certificate that Amazon seems happy to credit to my
>>> account.
Danilo Gligoroski wrote:
>> Your example is about two actors: Amazon and BitCoin, acting within
>> small amounts of goods, se
> The idea that race is correlated with crime may be un-PC, but it might
> also be correct. Of course, an incorrect theory of race/crime
> correlation might be offensive to people who do not subscribe to PC if
> the theory were ill-informed, such as by being based on anecdotal
> evidence only. B
On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 8:22 PM, James A. Donald wrote:
> On 2011-06-14 1:29 AM, Nico Williams wrote:
>> Second, we
>>
>> don't need to use derogatory terms here. There's a difference between
>> being polite and being PC,
>
> If someone mugged you, you were mugged by a non asian minority, probabl
ObCrypto: sorry, got nothing.
This crisis has a lot to do with the fact that Bitcoin is doing well,
and suggests demand for other cryptographic solutions.
As orthodox places to put your money and perform transactions are
increasingly suspect, people are now willing to consider unorthodox
pl
I get back from vacation and suddenly my inbox is filled with
misconceptions.
While this is supossed to be a fairly technical mailinglist (about
cryptography) it seems clear many people haven't quite understood bitcoins'
workings.
Let me break it down:
* With a private/public key combination you
On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 9:22 PM, James A. Donald wrote:
>>> I was at ground zero of the crisis: Sunnyvale
>>> California.
>>>
>>> And every person I saw buying a seven hundred thousand dollar
>>> house was a cat eating no hablo english wetback with no
>>> regular job.
>
> On 2011-06-14 1:29 AM, Ni
On 2011-06-14 1:50 AM, Nathan Loofbourrow wrote:
After a while you run out of big dumb mortgages, and we did. So the pressure
was on to create more of them. Once everyone has a mortgage, or maybe two,
you start lending to folks with a risk profile that wasn't so hot anymore.
This happened in co
I was at ground zero of the crisis: Sunnyvale
California.
And every person I saw buying a seven hundred thousand dollar
house was a cat eating no hablo english wetback with no
regular job.
On 2011-06-14 1:29 AM, Nico Williams wrote:
First, there were plenty of middle class
(and better off) peo
On 2011-06-13 11:55 PM, Ian G wrote:
Um, Adam, that's the very definition of a pyramid scheme :)
No-one need lose as long as the size of the user base grows, long term!
If bitcoin stabilizes, no one loses. If a pyramid scheme stabilizes,
last to invest loses.
__
>> Now I find I can exchange a little over five bitcoins for
>> a �50 Amazon gift certificate that Amazon seems happy to
>> credit to my account.
>Your example is about two actors: Amazon and BitCoin, acting within small
>amounts of goods, services and issued currency.
No, it's not. There's so
On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 10:50 AM, Nathan Loofbourrow wrote:
> The good old market played a role here too. There are lots of investors
> whose risk profile dictates that they should be in "safe" investments, e.g.
> pension funds and old people. With the interest rates held on the floor, and
> Green
On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 8:29 AM, Nico Williams wrote:
>
> I particularly agree that CRA and Frannie primarily set in motion the
> market dynamic that led to either the bubble itself or its ultimate
> size, or both. There's straightforward evidence: total up the amount
> in securities sold by Fran
On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 6:03 AM, James A. Donald wrote:
> On 2011-06-13 3:12 PM, Randall Webmail wrote:
>> That's right: POOR PEOPLE caused the Current
>> Unpleasantness!
>
> Yes they did. I was at ground zero of the crisis: Sunnyvale
> California.
>
> And every person I saw buying a seven hundre
Bitcoin does not have to end with the pyramid scheme outcome - where it
stalls and all those still holding any lose - so long as there remain people
willing to exchange goods for bitcoin after the dust has settled.
Anyway my point is even if the deployment phase is a wild ride, with some
winners
On 13/06/11 5:54 PM, Adam Back wrote:
Bitcoin is not a pyramid scheme, and doesnt have to have the collapse and
late joiner losers. If bitcoin does not lose favor - ie the user base grows
and then maintains size of user base in the long term, then no one loses.
Um, Adam, that's the very definit
On 2011-06-13 3:12 PM, Randall Webmail wrote:
> That's right: POOR PEOPLE caused the Current
> Unpleasantness!
Yes they did. I was at ground zero of the crisis: Sunnyvale
California.
And every person I saw buying a seven hundred thousand dollar
house was a cat eating no hablo english wetback wi
Nicholas Bohm write:
>
> Now I find I can exchange a little over five bitcoins for
> a £50 Amazon gift certificate that Amazon seems happy to
> credit to my account.
I see the example of an institution (organization, company, entity, ...)
willing to happily credit the current value of *wh
On 13/06/11 10:31, James A. Donald wrote:
The difference was Fannie, Freddie, and the CRA.
This is entirely off topic. Please drop it.
--
__
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/\__/ http://www.ciphergoth.org/
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On 2011-06-13 2:57 PM, Nico Williams wrote:
I don't think it's fair to blame private financial
institutions for the ill-effects of an ill-advised government plan to
subsidize housing ownership by individuals. Without Frannie, CRA, or
anything of the sort I don't think we'd have seen the degree o
On 2011-06-13 2:50 PM, John Levine wrote:
But that really has nothing to do with the crypto part. You can have
crypto out the wazoo, and it's worth nothing unless there's an issuer
in meatspace who will accept your crypto coins, cancel them, and hand
you the agreed amount of money.
But clearly
On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 6:50 AM, John Levine wrote:
> PS: For anyone who wants a crypto currency backed by gold, that's
> functionally equivalent to a gold ETF, of which there are several,
> such as ticker symbols IAU, GLD, GTU, SGOL, and AGOL. They do what
> they do perfectly adequately, but the
Bitcoin is not a pyramid scheme, and doesnt have to have the collapse and
late joiner losers. If bitcoin does not lose favor - ie the user base grows
and then maintains size of user base in the long term, then no one loses.
I think in the current phase the deflation (currency increasing in value
On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 12:12 AM, Randall Webmail wrote:
> That's right: POOR PEOPLE caused the Current Unpleasantness! The people who
> pushed the Liar Loans and the alleged people who packaged those into
> securities and the alleged people who gave those securities AAA ratings and
> the all
From: "Nico Williams"
To: noloa...@gmail.com
Cc: "Crypto discussion list"
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 12:57:58 AM
Subject: Re: [cryptography] Digital cash in the news...
>Now, financial institutions clearly played a role, but mostly it was a
>fee-taking role (since th
On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 11:28 PM, Jeffrey Walton wrote:
> I recall Obama boasting: "My Administration is the only thing saving
> you from the pitchforks of the American people [sic]" at a banker's
> lunch after he took office. On the campaign trail, he received over 1M
> USD from Goldman Sachs alo
>We can therefore see that someone has to make that "worth" mean
>something, so for this we need an "issuer" sometimes known as Ivan.
>It's beyond the scope of a crypto list to discuss this in depth, but
>typically Ivan would deposit $1 for every issued electronic dollar in
>some bank account s
On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 11:06 PM, Nathan Loofbourrow wrote:
> So a monetary authority is printing BitCoins and spending them on fiscal
> stimulus. In spite of that, money is entering the economy because as stores
> of value go, the alternatives aren't that great either. Reminds me of the US
> doll
On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 11:54 PM, Nico Williams wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 10:34 PM, Jeffrey Walton wrote:
>> I think Sparta had it right in this instance: put the public officials
>> on trial when their term is over, and make them accountable for their
>> actions. Its funny how those lesso
Ian G wrote:
> The way to do this is a /contract/ which is a defined format of promise to
> deliver, date, consideration, etc. You write that down in boring ascii:
To your point, each issued BitCoin is a contract -- well, the completion of
one, anyway. The contract states as follows:
"I have p
On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 10:34 PM, Jeffrey Walton wrote:
> I think Sparta had it right in this instance: put the public officials
> on trial when their term is over, and make them accountable for their
> actions. Its funny how those lessons were lost.
Doesn't help. The trials would be political t
On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 9:44 PM, James A. Donald wrote:
> On 2011-06-12 8:53 AM, Nico Williams wrote:
>> A fiat currency with no capital controls and reasonably free
>> trade is probably the best currency system yet. Details do matter
>> though.
>
> If operated by far sighted men with an eye for
On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 10:44 PM, James A. Donald wrote:
> On 2011-06-12 8:53 AM, Nico Williams wrote:
>>
>> A fiat currency with no capital controls and reasonably free
>> trade is probably the best currency system yet. Details do matter
>> though.
>
> If operated by far sighted men with an eye
On 13/06/11 12:05 PM, James A. Donald wrote:
On 2011-06-13 9:26 AM, Ian G wrote:
However. Unless the laws of financial conservation have been repealed by
the design, those who follow have to invest a lot and come out with
less...
Financial conservation does not apply to money.
Right, not to
On 2011-06-12 8:57 AM, Ian G wrote:
I wrote a paper about John Levine's observation of low knowledge, way
back in 2000, called "Financial Cryptography in 7 Layers." The sort of
unstated thesis of this paper was that in order to understand this area
you had to become very multi-discipline, you had
On 2011-06-12 8:53 AM, Nico Williams wrote:
A fiat currency with no capital controls and reasonably free
trade is probably the best currency system yet. Details do matter
though.
If operated by far sighted men with an eye for the long term - for
example if operated by a hereditary monarchy.
On 2011-06-12 6:13 AM, John Levine wrote:
Useful for something, but not useful for money. I can't help but note
that the level of economic knowledge in the digital cash community is
pitifully low, and much of what people think they know is absurd.
(Anyone who thinks that a gold standard is bette
On 2011-06-11 10:41 PM, Ian G wrote:
We expect money to be a store of value, among a few other things.
BitCoin has nothing in it that speaks to that goal, that I can see [0].
This anti-property would however make it more ideal for a bubble [1].
All money is a bubble. The non monetary value of
On 2011-06-13 9:26 AM, Ian G wrote:
However. Unless the laws of financial conservation have been repealed by
the design, those who follow have to invest a lot and come out with less...
Financial conservation does not apply to money. If paper currency
collapses, and is replaced by gold, those
On 12/06/11 10:55 PM, Nicholas Bohm wrote:
Ah well. I joined bitcoin quite early, seeing it as like donating spare
cycles to an interesting experiment.
I do agree whole heartedly that this is a great fun experiment, and
worthy of attention. It has pushed the boundaries of what we've known
a
On 12/06/2011 13:23, Ian G wrote:
On
12/06/11 4:21 PM, Peter Gutmann wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks it's not
coincidence that the (supposed) major
use of bitcoin is by people buying hallucinogenic substances?
On 12/06/11 4:21 PM, Peter Gutmann wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks it's not coincidence that the (supposed) major
use of bitcoin is by people buying hallucinogenic substances?
The best way to think of this is from the marketing concepts of "product
diffusion" or "product life cycle".
ht
"James A. Donald" writes:
>There is a small but not totally insignificant chance that after fiat monies
>collapse, the world will go bitcoin standard.
ITYM:
There is a small but insignificant chance that fiat monies will collapse.
There is a small but insignificant chance that if this happens
On 12/06/11 8:29 AM, Jeffrey Walton wrote:
On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 4:13 PM, John Levine wrote:
Unlike fiat currencies, algorithms assert limit of total volume.
And the mint and transaction infrastructure is decentral, so there's
no single point of control. These both are very useful properties.
On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 3:13 PM, John Levine wrote:
> (Anyone who thinks that a gold standard is better than what we have
> now, or that the supply of gold is fixed in any but a purely
> hypothetical sense, is either ignorant of economic history or shilling
> for gold speculators.)
+1. A fiat cu
;-)
On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 6:29 PM, Jeffrey Walton wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 4:13 PM, John Levine wrote:
> >>Unlike fiat currencies, algorithms assert limit of total volume.
> >>And the mint and transaction infrastructure is decentral, so there's
> >>no single point of control. These bo
On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 4:13 PM, John Levine wrote:
>>Unlike fiat currencies, algorithms assert limit of total volume.
>>And the mint and transaction infrastructure is decentral, so there's
>>no single point of control. These both are very useful properties.
>
> Useful for something, but not usefu
>Unlike fiat currencies, algorithms assert limit of total volume.
>And the mint and transaction infrastructure is decentral, so there's
>no single point of control. These both are very useful properties.
Useful for something, but not useful for money. I can't help but note
that the level of econo
BitCoin has only one problem: maintenance of the relationship between unit
BitCoin value and the material world (energy, as in KWh) is 'soft', it requires
some sort of a volatile communal effort, which sets it for failure (as a
counter example, the amount of Au atoms on this planet is rather ind
On Jun 10, 2011, at 10:16 55PM, John Levine wrote:
> In article <021ccba9-9203-4896-8412-481b94595...@cs.columbia.edu> you write:
>> http://gcn.com/articles/2011/06/09/bitcoins-digital-currency-silk-road-charles-schumer-joe-manchin.aspx?s=gcndaily_100611
>
> I wouldn't call bitcoins digital cash
On 11/06/11 9:01 PM, Eugen Leitl wrote:
On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 03:58:07PM +1200, Peter Gutmann wrote:
"John Levine" writes:
I wouldn't call bitcoins digital cash. They're more like digital tulip bulbs,
Finally an analogy I can use to explain bitcoin to the masses (well, assuming
they know
On 11/06/11 7:42 PM, Eugen Leitl wrote:
On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 02:16:55AM -, John Levine wrote:
In article<021ccba9-9203-4896-8412-481b94595...@cs.columbia.edu> you write:
http://gcn.com/articles/2011/06/09/bitcoins-digital-currency-silk-road-charles-schumer-joe-manchin.aspx?s=gcndaily_10
On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 03:58:07PM +1200, Peter Gutmann wrote:
> "John Levine" writes:
>
> >I wouldn't call bitcoins digital cash. They're more like digital tulip
> >bulbs,
>
> Finally an analogy I can use to explain bitcoin to the masses (well, assuming
> they know about the tulip mania).
On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 02:16:55AM -, John Levine wrote:
> In article <021ccba9-9203-4896-8412-481b94595...@cs.columbia.edu> you write:
> >http://gcn.com/articles/2011/06/09/bitcoins-digital-currency-silk-road-charles-schumer-joe-manchin.aspx?s=gcndaily_100611
>
> I wouldn't call bitcoins digi
On 2011-06-11 3:12 PM, James A. Donald wrote:
On 2011-06-11 1:58 PM, Peter Gutmann wrote:
I wouldn't call bitcoins digital cash. They're more like digital tulip
bulbs,
Misattribution, that was John Levine, not Peter Gutman.
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cryptography mailing l
I wrote:
Therefore the market is valuing the chance that the world will go to a
bitcoin standard at
I meant to say:
Therefore the market is valuing the chance that the world will go to a
bitcoin standard at two chances in a million, which sounds about right
to me.
__
On 2011-06-11 1:58 PM, Peter Gutmann wrote:
I wouldn't call bitcoins digital cash. They're more like digital tulip bulbs,
Monetary value is always speculative. It depends on the expectation
that they will be used as money.
There is a small but not totally insignificant chance that after fi
>Finally an analogy I can use to explain bitcoin to the masses (well, assuming
>they know about the tulip mania). I've been using Bartercard, which is a good
>analogy but somewhat limited in international recognition.
Read the full rant: http://jl.ly/Money/bitcoin.html
R's,
John
__
"John Levine" writes:
>I wouldn't call bitcoins digital cash. They're more like digital tulip bulbs,
Finally an analogy I can use to explain bitcoin to the masses (well, assuming
they know about the tulip mania). I've been using Bartercard, which is a good
analogy but somewhat limited in in
Steven Bellovin writes:
>http://gcn.com/articles/2011/06/09/bitcoins-digital-currency-silk-road-charles-schumer-joe-manchin.aspx?s=gcndaily_100611
My response to this when it came up on the cpunx list:
Coming up next week, "The Bitcoin-based Child Porn Market". And don't miss
our exciting futu
In article <021ccba9-9203-4896-8412-481b94595...@cs.columbia.edu> you write:
>http://gcn.com/articles/2011/06/09/bitcoins-digital-currency-silk-road-charles-schumer-joe-manchin.aspx?s=gcndaily_100611
I wouldn't call bitcoins digital cash. They're more like digital
tulip bulbs, or bearer shares of
http://gcn.com/articles/2011/06/09/bitcoins-digital-currency-silk-road-charles-schumer-joe-manchin.aspx?s=gcndaily_100611
--Steve Bellovin, https://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb
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