Re: Maybe It's Snake Oil All the Way Down

2003-06-04 Thread Bill Frantz
to the POTS network. Etc. I'm willing to put up with that to avoid the pain that comes with UDP.) Then I can just tunnel it through SSH, or hack it to use SSL/TLS. Oh well. /rant Cheers - Bill - Bill Frantz | Due

Re: An attack on paypal

2003-06-10 Thread Bill Frantz
of PL/I for the lack of buffer overruns in Multics. However, in the Unix/Linux/PC/Mac world, a successor language has not yet appeared. YMMV - Bill - Bill Frantz | Due process for all| Periwinkle -- Consulting

RE: Keyservers and Spam

2003-06-11 Thread Bill Frantz
. But with a key server, I didn't have to bother Carl to send me my key. Or depend on him being online when I needed it. Cheers - Bill - Bill Frantz | Due process for all| Periwinkle -- Consulting (408)356-8506

RE: Keyservers and Spam

2003-06-13 Thread Bill Frantz
- Bill Frantz | A Jobless Recovery is | Periwinkle -- Consulting (408)356-8506 | like a Breadless Sand- | 16345 Englewood Ave. [EMAIL PROTECTED] | wich. -- Steve Schear | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA

Re: End of the line for Ireland's dotcom star

2003-09-23 Thread Bill Frantz
Note that proposals such as Tyler Close's YURL http://www.waterken.com/dev/YURL/ avoid the issue of trust in the TTP/CA. As such, I find them attractive whenever they can be used. Cheers - Bill - Bill Frantz| There's

Re: Reliance on Microsoft called risk to U.S. security

2003-09-26 Thread Bill Frantz
would just go away. See: http://www.combex.com/tech/edesk.html http://www.combex.com/papers/darpa-review/index.html http://www.combex.com/papers/darpa-report/index.html Cheers - Bill - Bill Frantz| There's nothing so

Re: Reliance on Microsoft called risk to U.S. security

2003-09-28 Thread Bill Frantz
At 8:12 AM -0700 9/27/03, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 26 Sep 2003, Bill Frantz wrote: The real problem is that the viewer software, whether it is an editor, PDF viewer, or a computer language interpreter, runs with ALL the user's privileges. If we ran these programs with a minimum

Re: Reliance on Microsoft called risk to U.S. security

2003-10-02 Thread Bill Frantz
, our degree of trust in an HTML should be less, and we shouldn't trust a Word format renderer at all (thanks to Word Macro viruses). At 9:21 PM -0700 9/30/03, Peter Gutmann wrote: Bill Frantz [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The real problem is that the viewer software, whether it is an editor, PDF

Re: Monoculture

2003-10-02 Thread Bill Frantz
protocols seems to be obvious, although the inspector part seems to be more ad hoc and community based. (But there's no building permit either.) Cheers - Bill - Bill Frantz| There's nothing so clear as | Periwinkle

Protocol implementation errors

2003-10-03 Thread Bill Frantz
- Bill - Bill Frantz| There's nothing so clear as | Periwinkle (408)356-8506 | vague idea you haven't written | 16345 Englewood Ave www.pwpconsult.com | down yet. -- Dean Tribble | Los Gatos, CA 95032

Trusting the Tools - was Re: Open Source ...

2003-10-11 Thread Bill Frantz
code to subvert KeyKOS. How do people feel about this form of argument? Cheers - Bill - Bill Frantz| There's nothing so clear as a | Periwinkle (408)356-8506 | vague idea you haven't written | 16345 Englewood

Re: [e-lang] Re: Protocol implementation errors

2003-10-11 Thread Bill Frantz
of the language should be tolerable. (Having to fire up a Java Virtual Machine each time could make public key operations look fast.) Cheers - Bill - Bill Frantz| There's nothing so clear as a | Periwinkle (408)356-8506

Re: Clipper for luggage

2003-11-15 Thread Bill Frantz
in transit. I suppose it also provides some level of security because someone wanting to do a quick grab from luggage will probably pick a less-secured piece.\ Cheers - Bill - Bill Frantz| There's nothing so clear

Re: Difference between TCPA-Hardware and other forms of trust

2003-12-20 Thread Bill Frantz
- Bill Frantz| There's nothing so clear as a | Periwinkle (408)356-8506 | vague idea you haven't written | 16345 Englewood Ave www.pwpconsult.com | down yet. -- Dean Tribble | Los Gatos, CA 95032

RE: voting

2004-04-16 Thread Bill Frantz
- Bill Frantz| There's nothing so clear as a | Periwinkle (408)356-8506 | vague idea you haven't written | 16345 Englewood Ave www.pwpconsult.com | down yet. -- Dean Tribble | Los Gatos, CA 95032

Re: Cryptography Expert Paul Kocher Warns: Future DVDs Prime Target for Piracy, Pay TV Foreshadows Challenges

2004-04-22 Thread Bill Frantz
- Bill Frantz| There's nothing so clear as a | Periwinkle (408)356-8506 | vague idea you haven't written | 16345 Englewood Ave www.pwpconsult.com | down yet. -- Dean Tribble | Los Gatos, CA 95032

Petname Tool version 0.5

2005-03-25 Thread Bill Frantz
following a hyperlink, you need only check that the expected reminder note is being displayed. If so, you can be sure you are using the same site you have in the past. Cheers - Bill - Bill Frantz| The first thing you need

Re: encrypted tapes

2005-06-09 Thread Bill Frantz
practitioner skilled in the art as to be non-patentable (except in the USA, where obviousness is no barrier). In any case I put it into the public domain. --- Bill Frantz| gets() remains as a monument | Periwinkle (408

Re: [Clips] Escaping Password Purgatory

2005-08-04 Thread Bill Frantz
a good master password, and a site name, and hashes them together to produce a site-specific password. Cheers - Bill - Bill Frantz| The first thing you need | Periwinkle (408)356-8506 | when using a perimeter

Possible non-extension property for hash functions

2005-08-06 Thread Bill Frantz
- Bill Frantz| The first thing you need | Periwinkle (408)356-8506 | when using a perimeter | 16345 Englewood Ave www.pwpconsult.com | defense is a perimeter.| Los Gatos, CA 95032 - The Cryptography Mailing

Re: Clearing sensitive in-memory data in perl

2005-09-16 Thread Bill Frantz
for System Programming. Datamation, May 1969. 15(5): p. 68-76. URL: http://home.nycap.rr.com/pflass/plisprg.htm Cheers - Bill --- Bill Frantz| gets() remains as a monument | Periwinkle (408)356-8506 | to C's

Re: Java: Helping the world build bigger idiots

2005-09-20 Thread Bill Frantz
- Bill Frantz| The first thing you need | Periwinkle (408)356-8506 | when using a perimeter | 16345 Englewood Ave www.pwpconsult.com | defense is a perimeter.| Los Gatos, CA 95032

Re: [Clips] Contactless payments and the security challenges

2005-09-21 Thread Bill Frantz
One issue I have not seen addressed in these contactless payment systems is the needs of people who carry multiple payment instruments. A simple example is a personal and a corporate credit card. Cheers - Bill - Bill Frantz

Re: [Clips] Contactless payments and the security challenges

2005-09-21 Thread Bill Frantz
On 9/21/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Nick Owen) wrote: Interesting question. I know that we can solve it on a application-enabled cell phone with public keys - each service has only swapped public keys so you can have any number. Can such a thing be done on an RFID card too? Bill Frantz wrote: One

Re: Java: Helping the world build bigger idiots

2005-09-23 Thread Bill Frantz
remaining correct during maintenance. This level of coupling between caller and callee is too risky for reliable software. Cheers - Bill - Bill Frantz| The first thing you need | Periwinkle (408)356-8506 | when using

Re: PKI too confusing to prevent phishing, part 28

2005-09-27 Thread Bill Frantz
the petname or trustbar tools to provide the memory that make self-signed certs like SSH keys. Cheers - Bill - Bill Frantz| The first thing you need | Periwinkle (408)356-8506 | when using a perimeter | 16345

Re: browser vendors and CAs agreeing on high-assurance certificat es

2006-01-05 Thread Bill Frantz
customers from each other. This mutual protection is much the same requirement as existed in the time-sharing systems KeyKOS was designed to support. Cheers - Bill --- Bill Frantz| gets() remains as a monument | Periwinkle (408

Re: Linux RNG paper

2006-03-22 Thread Bill Frantz
- Bill - Bill Frantz| The first thing you need | Periwinkle (408)356-8506 | when using a perimeter | 16345 Englewood Ave www.pwpconsult.com | defense is a perimeter.| Los Gatos, CA 95032

Re: encrypted file system issues (was Re: PGP master keys)

2006-05-02 Thread Bill Frantz
--- Bill Frantz| gets() remains as a monument | Periwinkle (408)356-8506 | to C's continuing support of | 16345 Englewood Ave www.pwpconsult.com | buffer overruns. | Los Gatos, CA 95032

Re: Exponent 3 damage spreads...

2006-09-15 Thread Bill Frantz
in an exchange can be represented. (A terabit/second is 10**12 bits/second. 32 bits can represent a million seconds at that data rate. 64 bits can represent much longer data items.) Cheers - Bill --- Bill Frantz| gets

Re: no surprise - Sun fails to open source the crypto part of Java

2007-05-14 Thread Bill Frantz
--- Bill Frantz| I like the farmers' market | Periwinkle (408)356-8506 | because I can get fruits and | 16345 Englewood Ave www.pwpconsult.com | vegetables without stickers. | Los Gatos, CA 95032

Re: Death of antivirus software imminent

2008-01-02 Thread Bill Frantz
from virus scanners. Cheers - Bill --- Bill Frantz| I like the farmers' market | Periwinkle (408)356-8506 | because I can get fruits and | 16345 Englewood Ave www.pwpconsult.com | vegetables without stickers. | Los

Re: Death of antivirus software imminent

2008-01-03 Thread Bill Frantz
. And in all cases, OSes should give the user more support in making sound decisions. See for example: http://www.skyhunter.com/marcs/granmaRulesPola.html Cheers - Bill - Bill Frantz| The first thing you need when

Re: Gutmann Soundwave Therapy

2008-02-06 Thread Bill Frantz
/distrib/vattp/index.html [2] http://www.erights.org/elib/distrib/vattp/SSLvsDataComm.html --- Bill Frantz| gets() remains as a monument | Periwinkle (408)356-8506 | to C's continuing support of | 16345 Englewood Ave

Re: cold boot attacks on disk encryption

2008-02-21 Thread Bill Frantz
- Bill Frantz| The first thing you need when | Periwinkle (408)356-8506 | using a perimeter defense is a | 16345 Englewood Ave www.pwpconsult.com | perimeter. | Los Gatos, CA 95032 - The Cryptography

Re: delegating SSL certificates

2008-03-19 Thread Bill Frantz
- Bill Frantz| The first thing you need when | Periwinkle (408)356-8506 | using a perimeter defense is a | 16345 Englewood Ave www.pwpconsult.com | perimeter. | Los Gatos, CA 95032

Re: Can we copy trust?

2008-06-02 Thread Bill Frantz
securely recognize a site, we can form our own trust decisions, without the necessity of involving third parties. Cheers - Bill - Bill Frantz| The first thing you need when | Periwinkle (408)356-8506 | using a perimeter

Re: The wisdom of the ill informed

2008-07-01 Thread Bill Frantz
to review your design. When these systems are announced, we should get in the habit of asking the people announcing them, Which recognized crypto protocol and algorithm experts have reviewed your design? Cheers - Bill - Bill

Re: road toll transponder hacked

2008-08-26 Thread Bill Frantz
they don't use it to track people's trips. If one were paranoid, one could put a different ID into the transponder for each trip, and only put the one it was issued with into it for toll crossings. :-) Cheers - Bill --- Bill

Password Recovery Attack

2008-09-21 Thread Bill Frantz
--- Bill Frantz|We used to quip that password is the most common 408-356-8506 | password. Now it's 'password1.' Who said users haven't www.periwinkle.com | learned anything about security? -- Bruce Schneier

Re: Fake popup study

2008-09-24 Thread Bill Frantz
the same way as the real world one has. Cheers - Bill - Bill Frantz| The first thing you need when | Periwinkle (408)356-8506 | using a perimeter defense is a | 16345 Englewood Ave www.pwpconsult.com | perimeter

Re: Fake popup study

2008-09-24 Thread Bill Frantz
on the basis that they cannot be trusted to protect themselves adequately. My 96 year old mother does not have a check book or credit cards. All her bills are paid through her lawyer's office. QED. Cheers - Bill --- Bill Frantz

Request for Input (RFI)--National Cyber Leap Year

2008-12-08 Thread Bill Frantz
of the CNCI. Multidisciplinary contributions from organizations with cybersecurity interests are especially encouraged. Cheers - Bill - Bill Frantz| When it comes to the world | Periwinkle (408)356-8506

Re: CPRNGs are still an issue.

2008-12-15 Thread Bill Frantz
and far between. Short of building special random number generation hardware, does anyone have any suggestions for additional sources? Cheers - Bill --- Bill Frantz| Barack Hussein Obama, President of the United States. 408

Re: Bitcoin v0.1 released

2009-01-24 Thread Bill Frantz
compromising their machines. I could see the operators moving toward being legitimate security firms, protecting computers against compromise in exchange for some of the proof of work (POW) money. Cheers - Bill - Bill Frantz

Re: Proof of Work - atmospheric carbon

2009-01-29 Thread Bill Frantz
bothered. There is probably safe profit in skimming small amounts from large number of machines just like there was profit in skimming the round off in payroll calculations. Cheers - Bill - Bill Frantz| The first thing you

Re: Has any public CA ever had their certificate revoked?

2009-05-07 Thread Bill Frantz
for the first introduction, and something more robust for subsequent sessions, these attack scenarios would be less likely. Cheers - Bill --- Bill Frantz| gets() remains as a monument | Periwinkle (408)356-8506 | to C's

Re: Has any public CA ever had their certificate revoked?

2009-05-07 Thread Bill Frantz
. The popularity of the noscript plugin for Firefox means that perhaps I'm not the only one out in left field. Cheers - Bill --- Bill Frantz| gets() remains as a monument | Periwinkle (408)356-8506 | to C's continuing

Re: password safes for mac

2009-06-28 Thread Bill Frantz
if you're not going to lock the key schedule?) You should probably use the encrypted swap feature on the Mac. System Preferences - Security - Use secure virtual memory. Cheers - Bill --- Bill Frantz| gets() remains

Re: Weakness in Social Security Numbers Is Found

2009-07-08 Thread Bill Frantz
in their database on a certain date. Fat chance it will happen. Cheers - Bill --- Bill Frantz|Web security is like medicine - trying to do good for 408-356-8506 |an evolved body of kludges - Mark Miller www.periwinkle.com

Re: deterministic random numbers in crypto protocols -- Re: Possibly questionable security decisions in DNS root management

2009-11-02 Thread Bill Frantz
using a non-deterministic key, then there doesn't seem to be anything obvious wrong with the approach. (But remember, I'm far from an expert.) Cheers - Bill --- Bill Frantz|After all, if the conventional wisdom was working

Re: Crypto dongles to secure online transactions

2009-11-18 Thread Bill Frantz
, but that seems a minor inconvenience. This kind of device sounds like a fine device for a banking industry committee to specify. Cheers - Bill - Bill Frantz| Airline peanut bag: Produced | Periwinkle (408)356-8506

Re: Crypto dongles to secure online transactions

2009-11-25 Thread Bill Frantz
target companies... Cheers - Bill --- Bill Frantz|After all, if the conventional wisdom was working, the 408-356-8506 | rate of systems being compromised would be going down, www.periwinkle.com | wouldn't

Re: Against Rekeying

2010-03-23 Thread Bill Frantz
for everyone. Cheers - Bill --- Bill Frantz| I like the farmers' market | Periwinkle (408)356-8506 | because I can get fruits and | 16345 Englewood Ave www.pwpconsult.com | vegetables without stickers. | Los Gatos, CA

Re: A Fault Attack Construction Based On Rijmen's Chosen-Text Relations Attack

2010-07-25 Thread Bill Frantz
to go any further than this. Cheers - Bill --- Bill Frantz| I like the farmers' market | Periwinkle (408)356-8506 | because I can get fruits and | 16345 Englewood Ave www.pwpconsult.com | vegetables without stickers

Re: A mighty fortress is our PKI, Part II

2010-08-02 Thread Bill Frantz
to find a ceramic tile store. The paper yellow pages had survived being left in the driveway in the rain and I used it. However, I agree that this is the 2% case for many parts of the world. Cheers - Bill --- Bill Frantz

Re: [IP] Malware kills 154

2010-08-24 Thread Bill Frantz
to share this with interested parties via email, but no posting is allowed on web sites. For a free subscription, (and for free posters) or to update a current subscription, visit http://portal.sans.org/ Cheers - Bill --- Bill

Re: Intel plans crypto-walled-garden for x86

2010-09-14 Thread Bill Frantz
, there's always AMD. Cheers - Bill --- Bill Frantz| gets() remains as a monument | Periwinkle (408)356-8506 | to C's continuing support of | 16345 Englewood Ave www.pwpconsult.com | buffer overruns. | Los

Re: [Cryptography] Email and IM are ideal candidates for mix networks

2013-09-05 Thread Bill Frantz
/ --- Bill Frantz| Truth and love must prevail | Periwinkle (408)356-8506 | over lies and hate. | 16345 Englewood Ave www.pwpconsult.com | - Vaclav Havel | Los Gatos, CA 95032 ___ The cryptography mailing list cryptography

[Cryptography] The paranoid approach to crypto-plumbing

2013-09-16 Thread Bill Frantz
safer if the data is also protected with a well-examined algorithm which does not have those properties. Cheers - Bill (who has finally caught up with the list) --- Bill Frantz| Re: Computer reliability, performance

Re: [Cryptography] The paranoid approach to crypto-plumbing

2013-09-16 Thread Bill Frantz
On 9/16/13 at 12:36 PM, leich...@lrw.com (Jerry Leichter) wrote: On Sep 16, 2013, at 12:44 PM, Bill Frantz fra...@pwpconsult.com wrote: After Rijndael was selected as AES, someone suggested the really paranoid should super encrypt with all 5 finalests in the competition. Five level super

Re: [Cryptography] The paranoid approach to crypto-plumbing

2013-09-16 Thread Bill Frantz
signature algorithms, sends both, and checks both. I think it meets the no worse than the best of the two test. Cheers - Bill --- Bill Frantz|We used to quip that password is the most common 408-356-8506 | password

Re: [Cryptography] The paranoid approach to crypto-plumbing

2013-09-17 Thread Bill Frantz
performance applications to do something like Bill Frantz suggests. It is in the nature of people in our community to like playing with such things. Just don't take them *too* seriously please. Hay, I like playing in the crypto sandbox, and redundancy is a classic technique. I have seen questions

Re: [Cryptography] The paranoid approach to crypto-plumbing

2013-09-17 Thread Bill Frantz
would have worked too, but the MAC was free. (I really don't trust my own code very much.) Cheers - Bill - Bill Frantz| The first thing you need when | Periwinkle (408)356-8506 | using a perimeter defense

Re: [Cryptography] PRISM-Proofing and PRISM-Hardening

2013-09-18 Thread Bill Frantz
a $50 limit on my risk from fraud. Cheers - Bill --- Bill Frantz| Truth and love must prevail | Periwinkle (408)356-8506 | over lies and hate. | 16345 Englewood Ave www.pwpconsult.com

Re: [Cryptography] PRISM-Proofing and PRISM-Hardening

2013-09-19 Thread Bill Frantz
client, I suspect a reasonable percentage of people would do it. It is, after all a one time operation. Cheers - Bill --- Bill Frantz| If the site is supported by | Periwinkle (408)356-8506 | ads, you

Re: [Cryptography] Specification: Prism Proof Email

2013-09-22 Thread Bill Frantz
a indicator of which methods passed. :-) Let's add to the list of methods the SSH method of, The same key used the last time. I assume users of the CA method would register with the CA in some maner which would probably cost money. (How the CA separates me from Bill Frantz, the professional

Re: [Cryptography] RSA equivalent key length/strength

2013-09-24 Thread Bill Frantz
they say they aren't interested in grandma's cookie recipe. I am, but I like good cookies. :0) --- Bill Frantz| Privacy is dead, get over| Periwinkle (408)356-8506 | it. | 16345 Englewood

[Cryptography] Hardware Trojan Protection

2013-09-25 Thread Bill Frantz
solution I can think of is to audit the output. Look very carefully at the output of the tool chain, and at the final piece that loads the configuration data into the device. Cheers - Bill --- Bill Frantz|Web

Re: [Cryptography] check-summed keys in secret ciphers?

2013-09-30 Thread Bill Frantz
-meta-shift-whoopie which erased the key should the device be in danger of being captured. And this was a relatively low security device. Cheers - Bill --- Bill Frantz|After all, if the conventional wisdom was working

Re: [Cryptography] check-summed keys in secret ciphers?

2013-09-30 Thread Bill Frantz
judgment based on $$$, Moore's law, and the speed of DES. Cheers - Bill --- Bill Frantz| Privacy is dead, get over| Periwinkle (408)356-8506 | it. | 16345 Englewood Ave www.pwpconsult.com

Re: [Cryptography] NIST about to weaken SHA3?

2013-10-01 Thread Bill Frantz
On 9/30/13 at 4:09 PM, cryptogra...@dukhovni.org (Viktor Dukhovni) wrote: Just because they're after you, doesn't mean they're controlling your brain with radio waves. Don't let FUD cloud your judgement. ROTFLOL! --- Bill

Re: [Cryptography] Crypto Standards v.s. Engineering habits - Was: NIST about to weaken SHA3?

2013-10-01 Thread Bill Frantz
if the system fails. Cheers - Bill, NCRC instructor --- Bill Frantz| If the site is supported by | Periwinkle (408)356-8506 | ads, you are the product.| 16345 Englewood Ave www.pwpconsult.com

Re: [Cryptography] are ECDSA curves provably not cooked? (Re: RSA equivalent key length/strength)

2013-10-01 Thread Bill Frantz
to be weak to them. Or NSA could have done what it did with DES and chosen a construct that didn't have that weakness. We just don't know. Cheers - Bill --- Bill Frantz| I don't have high-speed | Periwinkle (408

Re: [Cryptography] Why is emailing me my password?

2013-10-01 Thread Bill Frantz
not increase the level of user work in cases where there isn't, in fact, a security problem. I'm interested in cases where Mailman passwords have been abused. Cheers - Bill --- Bill Frantz| If the site is supported

Re: [Cryptography] Why is emailing me my password?

2013-10-03 Thread Bill Frantz
the cost of the abuse. Cheers - Bill - Bill Frantz| When it comes to the world | Periwinkle (408)356-8506 | around us, is there any choice | 16345 Englewood Ave www.pwpconsult.com | but to explore? - Lisa

Re: [Cryptography] Crypto Standards v.s. Engineering habits - Was: NIST about to weaken SHA3?

2013-10-08 Thread Bill Frantz
they can include update in their installation planning. Cheers - Bill --- Bill Frantz| If the site is supported by | Periwinkle (408)356-8506 | ads, you are the product.| 16345 Englewood Ave www.pwpconsult.com

Re: [Cryptography] Crypto Standards v.s. Engineering habits - Was: NIST about to weaken SHA3?

2013-10-09 Thread Bill Frantz
On 10/8/13 at 7:38 AM, leich...@lrw.com (Jerry Leichter) wrote: On Oct 8, 2013, at 1:11 AM, Bill Frantz fra...@pwpconsult.com wrote: We seriously need to consider what the design lifespan of our crypto suites is in real life. That data should be communicated to hardware and software

Re: [Cryptography] Crypto Standards v.s. Engineering habits - Was: NIST about to weaken SHA3?

2013-10-10 Thread Bill Frantz
to make the same judgements in high security/high risk applications. Cheers - Bill --- Bill Frantz|The nice thing about standards| Periwinkle (408)356-8506 |is there are so many to choose| 16345 Englewood Ave

Re: [Cryptography] Crypto Standards v.s. Engineering habits - Was: NIST about to weaken SHA3?

2013-10-10 Thread Bill Frantz
On 10/9/13 at 7:12 PM, watsonbl...@gmail.com (Watson Ladd) wrote: On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 1:46 PM, Bill Frantz fra...@pwpconsult.com wrote: ... As professionals, we have an obligation to share our knowledge of the limits of our technology with the people who are depending on it. We know

Re: [Cryptography] Crypto Standards v.s. Engineering habits - Was: NIST about to weaken SHA3?

2013-10-11 Thread Bill Frantz
, which are a lot like the Foolscap references. They are documented at www.erights.org. Cheers - Bill --- Bill Frantz| Truth and love must prevail | Periwinkle (408)356-8506 | over lies and hate. | 16345