Re: [CTRL] Poor CIA
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 99-05-11 16:47:15 EDT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: WASHINGTON (AP) -- The CIA may well see one of its biggest blunders turn into a budget boost. Lawmakers are blaming the mistaken bombing of the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade on an intelligence apparatus stretched thin. Yes, having to use those old maps must be what did it. Ironically, if you go back and re-read that article carefully, it makes clear that the CIA was using the PENTAGON's maps which were out of date -- yet the CIA gets the blame AND somehow the CIA (not the "poor Pentagon") gets more budget cash! Go figger ... DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Poor CIA
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 99-05-11 19:54:40 EDT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: China can't do anything effective in retaliation, Oh, I dunno ... I think it'd be a good time (what with a semi-secret Chinese/N.Korean "mutual defense pact" in the offing) for China to (re)occupy Taiwan with ground troops, justifying this action in the same manner as the Serbs lay claim to Kosovo and NATO lays claim to whatever it wants despite international law. If China did that, I think we could say equally, "the US--" (or SEATO) "--can't do anything effective in retaliation." I'm watching the E. Asian beat and posting anything noteworthy here, so I hope you didn't miss the news that Japan has more or less agreed to turn a blind eye to Chinese actions vis-a-vis Taiwan -- yet the US is counting on Japan as being the "enforcer" of US interests in Asia. Japan has its own interests which are served by detente with China in a manner somewhat different from US detente with China. The US is employing its customary approach to possibly-nuclear N. Korea -- a big club in one hand and a bagful of money in the other -- but that bargaining stance falls apart if China extends the same giving hand with the other hand supportive, not threatening. IMHO, it's a highly volatile chessgame right now, and what the Balkans are for the Eastern Bloc (Serbs, Russia et al) Korea is for the West -- the place most likely to be where the shit hits the fan ... And by shit, I mean an appalling mishmash of militaristic hybris, desperation, political risk-taking, stupidity and incompetence in every process, and an ideological/cultural stubbornness that overwhelms rationality, such as we see at work in Kosovo. Starving nuclear-powered Communists COULD exhibit all the predictability of some wounded, cornered animal, prepared to die but unwilling to go down without taking others along with it. If we've learned ANYTHING from past wars --forget the retrospective glamorizing and glossing-over of motives, strategies, interests, etc., that's passed off as "history"-- it's that "war fever" is a PATHOLOGICAL state, wherein rational thinking and pragmatic behavior are the first casualties. Once you're in the quicksand, you only go deeper ... DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Poor CIA
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 05/11/1999 7:54:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So the CIA didn't have a Michelin guide to Beograd around. It happens. And they didn't have any "assets on the ground" (ie spies) to walk up to the building ahead of time to make sure it *was* an arms depot. It happens. Did the CIA blow its budget on LSD experiments instead of maps and spies and other mundane stuff? Bother... But in the long run, it really doesn't matter. China can't do anything effective in retaliation, just add this incident to a long list of grievances against the outside world - "Those Westerners are always picking on us, it isn't fair!!" You're right. It happens. And with our CIA, it happens with amazing frequency. Remember the reports about how the Soviets had all the assets and weaponry, and would start WWIII. Our CIA is so ineffective they have become a worldwide joke. These are the people who told Clinton to bomb that pill factory in Sudan. These are the guys our country depends on for intelligence (what a laugh) to establish our relations with other countries. These are the guys who tell us where the targets are. Buy any boy scout troop a new compass, and they will be able to do a better job. These are the guys who test mind control drugs on any passing American citizen they can get in their sights. These are the guys who sat so comfortably for years and years with one of their own happily passing the lists of our agents to foreign governments (for money), with no one noticing a thing. This is the outfit that former president Geoge Bush headed. Of course he was "out of the loop." Yeah, let's not worry. Be happy. Prudy DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Poor CIA
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 05/12/1999 3:52:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Ironically, if you go back and re-read that article carefully, it makes clear that the CIA was using the PENTAGON's maps which were out of date -- yet the CIA gets the blame AND somehow the CIA (not the "poor Pentagon") gets more budget cash! Go figger Yes Goat, but I'm not sure they were using the Pentagon's latest maps. It wouldn't be the first time one outfit gave another outfit outdated material. One of the most important things (believe it or not) that a military can have is "good administration." That's the working administration I'm talking about. The people who keep the paper work current, flowing and workable. Unfortunately those who do this work are treated like pond scum and as a result no one willingly enters that field, stays with that field, or fights for good procedures. The military has shot itself in the foot, and I'm sure the CIA has done the same. A few more generals and a few more pre-presidential leaders should take them both down the hill even faster than they're going now. If you've noticed, they've both been failing since the early sixties. If they were going down before that, they weren't so obvious about it that passers by like me noticed it. Prudy DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Poor CIA
-Caveat Lector- -- From: Das GOAT [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [CTRL] "Poor CIA" Date: Wednesday, May 12, 1999 1:51 AM -Caveat Lector- In a message dated 99-05-11 16:47:15 EDT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: WASHINGTON (AP) -- The CIA may well see one of its biggest blunders turn into a budget boost. Lawmakers are blaming the mistaken bombing of the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade on an intelligence apparatus stretched thin. Yes, having to use those old maps must be what did it. Ironically, if you go back and re-read that article carefully, it makes clear that the CIA was using the PENTAGON's maps which were out of date -- yet the CIA gets the blame AND somehow the CIA (not the "poor Pentagon") gets more budget cash! Go figger ... Please people. The map story is just that - a story. The CIA took the fall for this one. What ever happened to those nifty satellite pictures??? Hilary DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] [Re: [CTRL] Poor CIA]
-Caveat Lector- Well, I don't really believe that the bombing of the Chinese Embassy was an accident. Even the CIA ain't *that* stupid. Besides, intelligence officers have to be used to working with old maps and atlases, sometimes *very* old. During the Italian campaign in 1944-45, Allied Intelligence realized that the Germans were using the old, pre-WWI Austrian names for towns, rivers, and other geographic features in the Italian Tyrol, thus making it difficult for POW interrogators to know what German prisoners were talking about. So G-2 just hunted up pre-WWI copies of *Baedeker's Süd-Tirol*, which had better maps than they were using anyway... And in North Africa, the standard maps used by the first Allied units following the landings in Morocco in 1942 were simply the Michelin tourist maps, complete with "scenic routes" carefully marked out. I still have one of those maps which belonged to my father. (His war souvenirs tended to be a little different--his other souvenir of North Africa is a grammar of Moroccan Arabic.) Bob = Robert F. Tatman [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Remove "nospam" from the address to reply. NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml POSTING THIS MESSAGE TO THE INTERNET DOES NOT IMPLY PERMISSION TO SEND UNSOLICITED COMMERCIAL E-MAIL (SPAM) TO THIS OR ANY OTHER INTERNET ADDRESS. RECEIPT OF SPAM WILL RESULT IN IMMEDIATE NOTIFICATION OF THE SENDER'S ISP. Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Poor CIA
-Caveat Lector- - Original Message - From: Robert Tatman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Well, I don't really believe that the bombing of the Chinese Embassy was an accident. Even the CIA ain't *that* stupid. What, you're under-estimating the stupidity of gov't workers? Hmmm... Ric "sometimes an idiot is just an idiot" Carter DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Poor CIA
-Caveat Lector- Whats that old joke - we thought it was fool proof - to which was replied "yeh, but you don't know our CIA". Colleen Just kidding..I have known a couple that were pretty bright, but also pretty disgusted with their "superiors". DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] [Re: [CTRL] Poor CIA]
-Caveat Lector- Ric Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- - Original Message - From: Robert Tatman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Well, I don't really believe that the bombing of the Chinese Embassy was an accident. Even the CIA ain't *that* stupid. What, you're under-estimating the stupidity of gov't workers? Hmmm... Ric "sometimes an idiot is just an idiot" Carter Problem is, everybody's doing just too much apologizing for this "accident." It falls into the category of "Methinks the whatever doth protest too much," IMNSHO. If it were really a mistake, the response would have been something like "We *what*? Oh-h-h shit. Hey listen, we're sorry, but that's the fortunes of war, you know... I mean, if you sit in the middle of a war zone, there's a strong possibility you're gonna be hit..." Instead Clinton and Albright and Blair and Jamie Whatsisface have done everything but kowtow to Beijing in atonement. And that smells very bad to me. With regard to the competence of the CIA, unless they really are incompetent (which can't be ruled out, of course!), ELINT will have been confirmed using HUMINT. They have *got* to have guys on the street in Belgrade--hell, during the run-up to Desert Storm, they had Green Berets burying themselves in the sand so they could come up behind Saddam's lines when fighting started, and SAS types in Lawrence of Arabia robes posing as bedouin on *camels* for Chrissake, so you *know* every intelligence outfit in NATO has agents-in-place all over Serbia. They *must* have known that the building their bombs were aimed at was the Chinese Embassy, if for no other reason than that they hit it with such precision. After all, this is warfare, not rocket science... [Note to the reader: If you didn't catch the last reference, it's about the inability of the Air Force to put any of its satellites in the correct orbit lately, thanks to sloppily-built "launch vehicles" (read "missiles") from Boeing and Martin Marietta.] Bob = Robert F. Tatman [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Remove "nospam" from the address to reply. NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml POSTING THIS MESSAGE TO THE INTERNET DOES NOT IMPLY PERMISSION TO SEND UNSOLICITED COMMERCIAL E-MAIL (SPAM) TO THIS OR ANY OTHER INTERNET ADDRESS. RECEIPT OF SPAM WILL RESULT IN IMMEDIATE NOTIFICATION OF THE SENDER'S ISP. Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Poor CIA
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 05/11/1999 4:10:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: WASHINGTON (AP) -- The CIA may well see one of its biggest blunders turn into a budget boost. Lawmakers are blaming the mistaken bombing of the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade on an intelligence apparatus stretched thin. Yes, having to use those old maps must be what did it. I don't know. Does cash offset sheer stupidity? Prudy DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Poor CIA
-Caveat Lector- - Original Message - From: Prudence L. Kuhn [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: WASHINGTON (AP) -- The CIA may well see one of its biggest blunders turn into a budget boost. Lawmakers are blaming the mistaken bombing of the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade on an intelligence apparatus stretched thin. Yes, having to use those old maps must be what did it. I don't know. Does cash offset sheer stupidity? Prudy So the CIA didn't have a Michelin guide to Beograd around. It happens. And they didn't have any "assets on the ground" (ie spies) to walk up to the building ahead of time to make sure it *was* an arms depot. It happens. Did the CIA blow its budget on LSD experiments instead of maps and spies and other mundane stuff? Bother... But in the long run, it really doesn't matter. China can't do anything effective in retaliation, just add this incident to a long list of grievances against the outside world - "Those Westerners are always picking on us, it isn't fair!!" Ric "you can pick your friends and you can pick your nose but you can't wipe your relatives off under the furniture" Carter * [EMAIL PROTECTED] * http://www.sonic.net/~ric * ICQ# 19633976 * * *** SkeptiChat: sliding down the razor-blade of life *** now featuring SkeptiNews: All The News That's Fit To Question email INFO or SUBSCRIBE SKEPTICHAT to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Poor CIA
-Caveat Lector- Das GOAT wrote: -Caveat Lector- CIA Error May Yield Budget Increase By JOHN DIAMOND .c The Associated Press WASHINGTON (AP) -- The CIA may well see one of its biggest blunders turn into a budget boost. Lawmakers are blaming the mistaken bombing of the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade on an intelligence apparatus stretched thin. This appears to be a new form of cover. CIA fuck ups are acceptable to all. The CIA gets more money, or gets improvements. If the bombing of the embassy was intentional, then this is the perfect cover. It's happened before so we know it is plausible. Remember when Janet Reno took the hit for Clinton after Waco? So what? Nothing came of it. So she said she was responsible. So what. Beware of blaming the CIA. Joshua2 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
