subject:"Re\: Debian default desktop environment"

On 04/07/2014 07:26 PM, Thomas Goirand wrote:
 For a desktop use, probably. For server setup, please don't. The CD1 is
 better than the netinst CD because... it doesn't need network!

You deploy your servers from a CD? Don't get me wrong, but installing
from CD in an enterprise environment doesn't sound very professional
to me.

We use FAI for that. 99% of our servers don't even have a CD drive
anymore, just some of the older ones. And even if you want to install
from CD, most modern servers provide a BMC with keyboard, mouse and
video redirect over the network which also allows you to mount ISO
files as virtual CDs. In that case, you don't really care about whether
it's a CD or DVD.

Adrian

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Re: Debian default desktop environment

2014-04-07 Thread Russ Allbery

John Paul Adrian Glaubitz glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de writes:

 We use FAI for that. 99% of our servers don't even have a CD drive
 anymore, just some of the older ones. And even if you want to install
 from CD, most modern servers provide a BMC with keyboard, mouse and
 video redirect over the network which also allows you to mount ISO
 files as virtual CDs.

Ah, BMC.  Now every computer comes with an extra full-fledged computer!
The main computer is for your use, and the other computer is for the use
of the attacker.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/


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Re: Debian default desktop environment

On 04/07/2014 07:39 PM, Russ Allbery wrote:
 
 Ah, BMC.  Now every computer comes with an extra full-fledged computer!
 The main computer is for your use, and the other computer is for the use
 of the attacker.

That's why we block the kvms in our firewall so they cannot be reached
from outside. I'm sorry, but when you have hundreds of servers in your
server room, there is no other way than using automatic deployment and
kvm over network.

We have one SGI Altix ICE 8200 system with 3 racks, 64 blades each
resulting in 192 servers which you are not installing manually
unless you want to lose your sanity.

And without a kvm, I'd have to run to the server room each time the
hardware crashes hard or similar problems.

Adrian

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Re: Debian default desktop environment

2014-04-07 Thread Russ Allbery

John Paul Adrian Glaubitz glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de writes:
 On 04/07/2014 07:39 PM, Russ Allbery wrote:

 Ah, BMC.  Now every computer comes with an extra full-fledged computer!
 The main computer is for your use, and the other computer is for the
 use of the attacker.

 That's why we block the kvms in our firewall so they cannot be reached
 from outside. I'm sorry, but when you have hundreds of servers in your
 server room, there is no other way than using automatic deployment and
 kvm over network.

Oh, sure, I'm not disagreeing with that part.

Those built-in controller subcomputers have an absolutely awful security
profile, though.  Be careful even of attackers on your same network.  It's
a great way to get a toehold on your server in a way that won't show up
through any host-based intrusion detection system and lets the attacker
bypass all host and kernel security.

Basically, you want to disable them whenever possible and, failing that,
limit access to them as tightly as you possibly can.  They have about as
much security as the maintenance port on your car.

And, of course, non-free software from top to bottom.

-- 
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Re: Debian default desktop environment

2014-04-07 Thread Thomas Goirand

On 04/08/2014 01:34 AM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
 On 04/07/2014 07:26 PM, Thomas Goirand wrote:
 For a desktop use, probably. For server setup, please don't. The CD1 is
 better than the netinst CD because... it doesn't need network!
 
 You deploy your servers from a CD? Don't get me wrong, but installing
 from CD in an enterprise environment doesn't sound very professional
 to me.

Note a CD, a CD image, booted from the KVM over IP using virtual media
over LAN. That's a pretty common use case, especially using preseeding.

 And even if you want to install
 from CD, most modern servers provide a BMC with keyboard, mouse and
 video redirect over the network which also allows you to mount ISO
 files as virtual CDs.

That's what I'm using yes. Probably you should have read my message up
to its end, where I wrote: I'm also unsure all my KVM over IPs support
images for DVDs rather than simply CD.

 In that case, you don't really care about whether
 it's a CD or DVD.

Even if they do, I don't see the point in using images 6 times the size
(takes longer to download and uses more storage for no improvement).

Thomas


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Re: Debian default desktop environment

On 04/07/2014 08:24 PM, Thomas Goirand wrote:
 
 That's what I'm using yes. Probably you should have read my message up
 to its end, where I wrote: I'm also unsure all my KVM over IPs support
 images for DVDs rather than simply CD.

No need to be rude about that, ok? I missed that part. Jeez.

 In that case, you don't really care about whether
 it's a CD or DVD.
 
 Even if they do, I don't see the point in using images 6 times the size
 (takes longer to download and uses more storage for no improvement).

Use FAI or Puppet, problem solved. Setting up a network boot
environment allows much quicker installation anyway.

For us, installing a machine involves:

- unpack the machine
- hook it up
- add new host to host database
- power on and set up machine for network boot
- done

Takes around 20 minutes for a server and no ISO images or CDs/DVDs
involved whatsoever.

Adrian

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Re: Debian default desktop environment

previously on this list Iain R. Learmonth contributed:

 The problem of integration is present, but now that I think about it, is
 likely more of an upstream problem than a packaging problem. I guess as
 more and more things use dbus, integration will become easier.

Perhaps but integration and universal interfacing is more of a design
issue and you could in many cases argue that dbus makes this worse
through adding an extra potentially non universal interface especially
for servers.

The job of dbus is for universal sockets and making life easier for
programmers that need that in handling the protocol for them and
shouldn't be thought of as anything magic or to promote good design. It
can make things cryptic to users and more effort to get a handle on
for users for a start.

-- 
___

'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work
together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a
universal interface'

(Doug McIlroy)

In Other Words - Don't design like polkit or systemd
___

I have no idea why RTFM is used so aggressively on LINUX mailing lists
because whilst 'apropos' is traditionally the most powerful command on
Unix-like systems it's 'modern' replacement 'apropos' on Linux is a tool
to help psychopaths learn to control their anger.

(Kevin Chadwick)

___


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Re: Debian default desktop environment

previously on this list Wookey contributed:

 but I just wanted to repoy to correct the
 apparent misapprehension that XFCE doesn't do user-friendly monitor out
 of the box.

It is hardly a showstopper either and I expect xfce-4.10 does and as
there has been a long time of testing before 4.10 was released as
stable it is put at a bit of a disadvantage to Gnome and KDE for having
the same aims as debian stable with the bugs I have come across such as
in mimecache handling actually being down to gnome libraries. As
already said the control of this is very simple via *randr.

It also supports focus follows mouse, no raise on click which is
something inherited from fvwm and Gnome cannot do even with gnome
tweaks last time I checked and KDE had a bug open about it. I find that
very useful to make the most of even multiple desktops and more would
use it if they could.

Atleast with 'win98' (rediculous and no reply to justify so far) you
won't suddenly have users not knowing how to shutdown their machine
like happened on was it win 8 and Gnome 3.

-- 
___

'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work
together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a
universal interface'

(Doug McIlroy)

In Other Words - Don't design like polkit or systemd
___

I have no idea why RTFM is used so aggressively on LINUX mailing lists
because whilst 'apropos' is traditionally the most powerful command on
Unix-like systems it's 'modern' replacement 'apropos' on Linux is a tool
to help psychopaths learn to control their anger.

(Kevin Chadwick)

___


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Re: Debian default desktop environment

2014-04-07 Thread Adam D. Barratt

On Wed, 2014-08-27 at 20:55 +0100, Kevin Chadwick wrote:

Please fix your clock.

Regards,

Adam


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Re: Debian default desktop environment

2014-04-07 Thread Jakub Wilk


* John Paul Adrian Glaubitz glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de, 2014-04-07, 20:36:

No need to be rude about that, ok?


“Oho!” said the pot to the kettle;
“You are dirty and ugly and black!”

--
Jakub Wilk


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Re: Debian default desktop environment

On 04/07/2014 08:58 PM, Jakub Wilk wrote:
 * John Paul Adrian Glaubitz glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de, 2014-04-07,
 20:36:
 No need to be rude about that, ok?
 
 “Oho!” said the pot to the kettle;
 “You are dirty and ugly and black!”

I wasn't rude in my previous mail, if yes, quote please.

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Re: Debian default desktop environment

2014-04-07 Thread Cyril Brulebois

John Paul Adrian Glaubitz glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de (2014-04-07):
 On 04/07/2014 08:24 PM, Thomas Goirand wrote:
  That's what I'm using yes. Probably you should have read my message
  up to its end, where I wrote: I'm also unsure all my KVM over IPs
  support images for DVDs rather than simply CD.
 
 No need to be rude about that, ok? I missed that part. Jeez.

It would make me very sad to see such aggressiveness continue.

(Maybe it's just me but calling people “not very professional” is
something I consider very rude; not Thomas' mentioning the fact that
the original text had sufficient context in its single paragraph.)

Mraw,
KiBi,
in an attempt to avoid “pot, kettle, black”.


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Re: Debian default desktop environment

On 04/07/2014 09:08 PM, Cyril Brulebois wrote:
 (Maybe it's just me but calling people “not very professional” is
 something I consider very rude; not Thomas' mentioning the fact that
 the original text had sufficient context in its single paragraph.)

Jeez, I said the method was not professional, not him. Don't put
thing into my mouth I didn't say.

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Re: Debian default desktop environment

previously on this list Adam D. Barratt contributed:

 Please fix your clock.
 

Have you considered relying on your own clock? I use mail receive
order. Do you not get spam annoyingly staying at the top of your box?

Sorry if your client does not allow that or doesn't support maildir but
this is a linux box that I haven't had time to upgrade but I shall be
moving back to OpenBSD as soon as the new webkit packages hit the
mirrors (few days max most likely). On linux if the clock has been set
forward by accident then it stupidly requires root to do a manual fsck
and which I can't be bothered with hence since yesterday currently
always going forward, still can't find reverse.

Let's not bring up ntp, crappy bios (not crystal) etc. etc..

Regards

Kc

-- 
___

'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work
together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a
universal interface'

(Doug McIlroy)

In Other Words - Don't design like polkit or systemd
___

I have no idea why RTFM is used so aggressively on LINUX mailing lists
because whilst 'apropos' is traditionally the most powerful command on
Unix-like systems it's 'modern' replacement 'apropos' on Linux is a tool
to help psychopaths learn to control their anger.

(Kevin Chadwick)

___


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Re: Debian default desktop environment

previously on this list Jakub Wilk contributed:

 * Gunnar Wolf gw...@gwolf.org, 2014-04-04, 23:22:
 - Media player: mplayer (on libcaca, of course)
 
 With its 4 RC bugs, it doesn't look like mplayer is going to be part of 
 jessie.
 

I can't tell, is that sarcasm, I hope so as it is the only player hat
does certain things or has enough performance for some video on
some machines.



-- 
___

'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work
together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a
universal interface'

(Doug McIlroy)

In Other Words - Don't design like polkit or systemd
___

I have no idea why RTFM is used so aggressively on LINUX mailing lists
because whilst 'apropos' is traditionally the most powerful command on
Unix-like systems it's 'modern' replacement 'apropos' on Linux is a tool
to help psychopaths learn to control their anger.

(Kevin Chadwick)

___


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Re: Debian default desktop environment

2014-04-07 Thread Ben Hutchings

On Mon, 2014-04-07 at 10:39 -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
 John Paul Adrian Glaubitz glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de writes:
 
  We use FAI for that. 99% of our servers don't even have a CD drive
  anymore, just some of the older ones. And even if you want to install
  from CD, most modern servers provide a BMC with keyboard, mouse and
  video redirect over the network which also allows you to mount ISO
  files as virtual CDs.
 
 Ah, BMC.  Now every computer comes with an extra full-fledged computer!
 The main computer is for your use, and the other computer is for the use
 of the attacker.

That ship sailed long ago. :-/

Some BMCs (like recent iDRAC) run Linux which means there may be some
opportunity for an outside project to modify and improve their security.

Ben.

-- 
Ben Hutchings
Sturgeon's Law: Ninety percent of everything is crap.


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Re: Debian default desktop environment

2014-04-07 Thread Josselin Mouette

Le mardi 08 avril 2014 à 01:26 +0800, Thomas Goirand a écrit :
 For a desktop use, probably. For server setup, please don't. The CD1 is
 better than the netinst CD because... it doesn't need network! And I
 prefer a smaller thing. I'm also unsure all my KVM over IPs support
 images for DVDs rather than simply CD.

This is a good argument for getting the desktop task out of CD#1.
Which would incidentally solve any size problem.

-- 
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: :' :
`. `'
  `-


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Re: Debian default desktop environment

previously on this list Philip Hands contributed:

 As for my grumpy tone, I apologise for that -- it probably comes from
 the several voluminous threads on debian-devel recently spouting drivel
 about systemd which I may have unfairly associated with this thread.

If you think it's all drivel then I would suggest you do not understand
the issues raised or the opposing points of view of many.

https://plus.google.com/+TheodoreTso/posts/4W6rrMMvhWU

p.s. If you read far enough then please ignore the part about sudo
being coarse grained as it allows a far more fine grained approach than
the defaults of polkit and the rediculous pkexec with great
intuitive power to the user too. In any other case proper specific priv
sep should be used anyway.


-- 
___

'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work
together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a
universal interface'

(Doug McIlroy)

In Other Words - Don't design like polkit or systemd
___

I have no idea why RTFM is used so aggressively on LINUX mailing lists
because whilst 'apropos' is traditionally the most powerful command on
Unix-like systems it's 'modern' replacement 'apropos' on Linux is a tool
to help psychopaths learn to control their anger.

(Kevin Chadwick)

___


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Re: Debian default desktop environment

2014-04-07 Thread Wookey

+++ Kevin Chadwick [2014-08-27 20:55 +0100]:
 It also supports focus follows mouse, no raise on click 

I had forgotten, but this was the 'killer feature' that originally
switched me to XFCE, and to a significant degree keeps me there. So far
as I know gnome3, and unity don't support this (by design). The way that
XFCE is flexible enough to support most (all?) typical window-manager
usage modes is a point in its favour. You even get compositing and
transparency these days (if you ask for it).

Wookey
-- 
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http://wookware.org/


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Re: Debian default desktop environment

2014-04-07 Thread Paul Wise

On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 3:22 AM, Ben Hutchings wrote:

 That ship sailed long ago. :-/

 Some BMCs (like recent iDRAC) run Linux which means there may be some
 opportunity for an outside project to modify and improve their security.

Do you have any references to this?
Are these iDRACs compliant with the GPL?

-- 
bye,
pabs

http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise


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Re: Debian default desktop environment

2014-04-07 Thread Ben Hutchings

On Tue, 2014-04-08 at 09:23 +0800, Paul Wise wrote:
 On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 3:22 AM, Ben Hutchings wrote:
 
  That ship sailed long ago. :-/
 
  Some BMCs (like recent iDRAC) run Linux which means there may be some
  opportunity for an outside project to modify and improve their security.
 
 Do you have any references to this?
 Are these iDRACs compliant with the GPL?

Probably, see http://opensource.dell.com/releases/idrac7/

Ben.

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Re: Debian default desktop environment

2014-04-07 Thread Chris Bannister

On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 09:27:00PM +0100, Kevin Chadwick wrote:
 previously on this list Jakub Wilk contributed:
 
  * Gunnar Wolf gw...@gwolf.org, 2014-04-04, 23:22:
  - Media player: mplayer (on libcaca, of course)
  
  With its 4 RC bugs, it doesn't look like mplayer is going to be part of 
  jessie.
  
 
 I can't tell, is that sarcasm, I hope so as it is the only player hat
 does certain things or has enough performance for some video on
 some machines.

apt-cache show mpv

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X


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Re: Debian default desktop environment

2014-04-06 Thread Wookey

+++ Hashem Nasarat [2014-04-04 11:15 -0400]:
 On 04/04/2014 10:36 AM, Stephan Seitz wrote:
  On Fri, Apr 04, 2014 at 04:13:27PM +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote:
  Le vendredi 04 avril 2014 à 15:25 +0200, Stephan Seitz a écrit :
  and modern hardware.
  This is no longer a requirement in jessie, at least on x86 where
  llvmpipe is now accepted as a GL engine.
  
  Ah, thank you.
  
  The default desktop should be moderate. If you want more eye
  candy and bells and whistles you can install bigger desktop
  environments.
  The default desktop should be functional and easy to use. I don’t call
  
  Yes, and what means „functional”? XFCE is of course functional, heck,
  even fvwm is functional, and I know people who still use it because they
  only have one config file to copy to a new machine and their desktop is
  ready.
 
 XFCE (at least the version in Debian 8) doesn't automatically handle
 external monitors, which is a pretty significant use-case for all kinds
 of users.
 
 I do not think it's fair to expect a new user to be configure xrandr or
 find  install a 3rd party xrandr GUI.

Settings - 'display' gives a simple UI for monitor switching. This is a
standard part of XFCE, although I don't know if it's installed in
default install (I'd expect it to be). No '3rd party' xrandr GUI needed,
nor command-line xrandr. This only provides mirroring, but that's what
people usually want. It also provides sensible resolution control and
has generally worked very well for me. arandr exists if you want
something fancier. This seems to me to be simple, effective and
discoverable.

I guess by 'automatic' you mean notification on extra-monitor detection
and a 'should I mirror to this monitor' type question?  That would
(probably) be an enhancement, but I just wanted to repoy to correct the
apparent misapprehension that XFCE doesn't do user-friendly monitor out
of the box.

Wookey
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http://wookware.org/


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Re: Debian default desktop environment

2014-04-05 Thread Stephen Gran

This one time, at band camp, Thomas Goirand said:
 Then, maybe a GR for deciding which DE should be the default could be
 considered. It's not like the init system: I think every DD has enough
 knowledge to decide, especially because this is a very subjective choice
 with tastes and habits involved (TWM anyone? :)). I'm not sure I would
 like to take the burden of being the person proposing the GR and writing
 the text though, and I would prefer to first discuss if it is a good
 idea to do that (some may very dislike that idea).

Every GR we've had has been divisive and exhausting.  Proposing one for
something as trivial as this makes me sad.

If you don't like something, get involved and fix it.  Legislating
something you are too busy or lazy to spend any time on is not the way
to fix things in Debian.  This is a very tractable problem, and it
should be solvable (and solved) within the team doing the work.

Cheers,
-- 
 -
|   ,''`.Stephen Gran |
|  : :' :sg...@debian.org |
|  `. `'Debian user, admin, and developer |
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Re: Debian default desktop environment

2014-04-05 Thread Wolodja Wentland

On Sat, Apr 05, 2014 at 12:55 +0800, Thomas Goirand wrote:
 On 04/04/2014 09:55 PM, Undefined User wrote:
  2014-04-04 10:52 GMT-03:00 Jonathan Dowland j...@debian.org
  mailto:j...@debian.org:
  
  We go over the same ground over and over. I'm increasingly in favour
  of *no*
  default. You must pick one from a list on install. Randomize the list if
  necessary.
  Perfect solution.
  
  Debian installer should provide you information about desktop
  environments and let the user choose it.
 
 There's only one problem with this approach: somebody has to actually
 implement it... [1]

 [1] And it's been years we're (uselessly) discussing it.

Yes, that is in fact the real problem thank you for stating that so
succinctly.

But wouldn't a nicer menu in the graphical installer with pictures or even
videos and a little text in both versions be worth it? If so then we have at
least an ideal to aspire to (even though nobody implements it) and if not
then we can move on.
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Re: Debian default desktop environment

2014-04-05 Thread Jakub Wilk


* Gunnar Wolf gw...@gwolf.org, 2014-04-04, 23:22:

- Media player: mplayer (on libcaca, of course)


With its 4 RC bugs, it doesn't look like mplayer is going to be part of 
jessie.


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Re: Debian default desktop environment

2014-04-05 Thread Iain R. Learmonth

On 05/04/14 06:22, Gunnar Wolf wrote:
 So, I suggest we ship a desktop consisting of:
 
 - Window manager: i3
 - File browser: urxvt
 - Photo viewer: caca-utils
 - Web browser: lynx
 - Mail client: mutt
 - Instant messenger: irssi
 - Productivity suite: emacs
 - Music app: supercollider
 - Media player: mplayer (on libcaca, of course)
 

Whilst that is basically my setup, it is definitely not an intuitive one
to use.

For power users, it likely is better than GNOME, KDE, etc. but it's only
power users that would take the time to get acquainted with it.

If someone wanted to put together a meta-package and some scripts for
tighter integration however, I would be very happy to test it, and
wouldn't mind seeing an installer that uses it as default, but it
shouldn't be *the* default.

Iain.

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Re: Debian default desktop environment

2014-04-05 Thread Milan Zamazal

 JM == Josselin Mouette j...@debian.org writes:

JM This is mostly irrelevant. The resources consumed by the desktop
JM are negligible compared to applications. As soon as you start a
JM browser with a few tabs on non-trivial websites, 1 GiB of memory
JM is barely enough.  Regardless of the desktop environment.

FYI, Xfce + Firefox runs fine on a 10 years old computer with 256 MB
RAM for all practical needs of the user.



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Re: Debian default desktop environment

2014-04-05 Thread Josselin Mouette

Le samedi 05 avril 2014 à 11:50 +0200, Milan Zamazal a écrit :
 FYI, Xfce + Firefox runs fine on a 10 years old computer with 256 MB
 RAM for all practical needs of the user.

Well, I guess our “practical needs” differ. Heavily.

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Re: Debian default desktop environment

2014-04-05 Thread Josselin Mouette

Le vendredi 04 avril 2014 à 23:52 +0100, Philip Hands a écrit :
 Anyway, to return to the main point, I do wonder why nobody has bothered
 to mention that the reason for the switch was that Gnome no longer fits
 on CD#1.

The thing that I don’t understand is that someone made such a decision,
which is a *functional* one, based on a purely *technical* matter.
Especially one as minor as the installation CD which has no actual
conceivable use today.

There are valid arguments for picking either of KDE, Xfce or GNOME. But
if the main reason for choice is a vague “fits on CD#1” requirement,
then I’m afraid we lack precise technical requirements of what changes
need to be implemented.

 Actually, no, instead why don't you all check out the various threads on
 debian-boot where those arguments have failed to be persuasive, and then
 go and do something productive instead.

Could you please sum up those discussions and explain what kind of
changes you would consider to be productive? 

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Re: Debian default desktop environment

2014-04-05 Thread brian m. carlson

On Sat, Apr 05, 2014 at 07:57:50PM +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote:
Could you please sum up those discussions and explain what kind of
changes you would consider to be productive?

I can sum up the discussions that were had last time on debian-devel for
you, at least as I remember them.

[0] I have personally found this to be the case. I've had older
machines where GNOME simply took up too many resources and was sluggish,
but XFCE ran fine.
[1] The very existence of MATE provides some support for this argument,
at least.
[2]
http://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/?p=tasksel/tasksel.git;a=commitdiff;h=dfca406eb694e0ac00ea04b12fc912237e01c9b5
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Re: Debian default desktop environment

2014-04-05 Thread Matthias Klumpp

2014-04-05 20:18 GMT+02:00 brian m. carlson sand...@crustytoothpaste.net:
On Sat, Apr 05, 2014 at 07:57:50PM +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote:
Could you please sum up those discussions and explain what kind of
changes you would consider to be productive?

I can sum up the discussions that were had last time on debian-devel for
you, at least as I remember them.

* XFCE fits on one installation CD, which is relevant for those people
who have slow or expensive Internet access (which is many parts of the
developing world). The older machines which may be more likely to be
in use in those areas may not have a DVD drive, or downloading 4 GB
for a DVD may be prohibitive in time or cost.
* It works better on older and less powerful machines[0].
* Some people claim that the interface is more familiar for
non-technical people coming from other operating systems. This is the
subject of much debate, however.
* Similarly, some people dislike the GNOME shell interface and prefer a
more traditional desktop environment[1].
* There were concerns about accessibility support, particularly for the
blind[2].
[...]
Those aren't solid arguments...
Replace Xfce with $anydesktop and you will get the same result. MATE
is not an argument for the vague some people dislike GNOME-Shell
(who is some people? why are they more important than the ones who
like the GNOME-Shell?) - some people didn't like KDE so they started
Trinity, so you could use the same argument there.
GNOME could be made to fit on CD1 (we use stronger compression now and
could leave out some components)[1].
For the accessibility stuff, I would say GNOME offers one of the best
experiences - and I say that as KDE user and developer.
So, we need other arguments to switch to GNOME/Xfce/KDE as default
than that ones.
Cheers,
Matthias

[1]: Personally, I think we should offer a DVD instead of a CD as
primary installation medium. A CD could still be optional, offering a
installation media with reduced components (e.g. no LibreOffice by
default) for those who need/want it.

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Re: Debian default desktop environment

2014-04-05 Thread Ben Hutchings

On Sat, 2014-04-05 at 18:18 +, brian m. carlson wrote:
 On Sat, Apr 05, 2014 at 07:57:50PM +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote:
  Could you please sum up those discussions and explain what kind of
  changes you would consider to be productive?
 
 I can sum up the discussions that were had last time on debian-devel for
 you, at least as I remember them.
 
 * XFCE fits on one installation CD, which is relevant for those people
   who have slow or expensive Internet access (which is many parts of the
   developing world).  The older machines which may be more likely to be
   in use in those areas may not have a DVD drive, or downloading 4 GB
   for a DVD may be prohibitive in time or cost.
 * It works better on older and less powerful machines[0].

Those are good arguments for providing an Xfce CD - as we have done in
previous releases - but not that it should be the recommended
installation image in general.

[...]
 * There were concerns about accessibility support, particularly for the
   blind[2].
[...]

Which is unfortunately quite bad in most free graphical desktop
environments.  Is it actually a strength of Xfce?  I didn't think it
was.

Ben.

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Re: Debian default desktop environment

2014-04-05 Thread brian m. carlson

On Sat, Apr 05, 2014 at 11:32:07PM +0100, Ben Hutchings wrote:
 On Sat, 2014-04-05 at 18:18 +, brian m. carlson wrote:
 [...]
  * There were concerns about accessibility support, particularly for the
blind[2].
 [...]
 
 Which is unfortunately quite bad in most free graphical desktop
 environments.  Is it actually a strength of Xfce?  I didn't think it
 was.

I just realized my statement was unclear.  I believe some people had
stated that GNOME had regressed in accessibility support at the time,
and XFCE was a better choice in this regard.  I can't say more because I
don't have enough knowledge on the subject.  Maybe someone else can.

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Re: Debian default desktop environment

2014-04-05 Thread Cyril Brulebois

brian m. carlson sand...@crustytoothpaste.net (2014-04-05):
 I just realized my statement was unclear.  I believe some people had
 stated that GNOME had regressed in accessibility support at the time,
 and XFCE was a better choice in this regard.  I can't say more because I
 don't have enough knowledge on the subject.  Maybe someone else can.

Until a few weeks before the wheezy release, we had troubles with gdm3.
Most of that was fixed by Emilio, mainly in that upload AFAICT from a
(very) quick look:
  http://packages.qa.debian.org/g/gdm3/news/20130410T130254Z.html

I don't think Xfce has better a11y support than Gnome. It actually lacks
some integration (see errata for D-I Jessie Alpha 1); I haven't been
able to work on/check approaches suggested on -a11y@ yet.

Mraw,
KiBi.


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Re: Debian default desktop environment

2014-04-04 Thread Chris Bannister

On Fri, Apr 04, 2014 at 08:18:41AM +1100, Dmitry Smirnov wrote:
 On Thu, 3 Apr 2014 14:16:15 Undefined User wrote:
  The problem is that right now Debian project is changing its default
  desktop environment, and I think that this is not a good move. Of course,
  it all depends on where the project is aiming at, specially on which users.
  But, for normal users, Gnome 3 is a way better experience than Xfce.
 
 I think Xfce is much better *default* desktop environment (DE) than Gnome.
 
 As KDE fan I do not like Gnome. Those who forget to choose DE in installer 
 (just like I did more than once) and end up with Xfce will have a lot less to 

Yeah, forgetting to press space instead of enter can lead to disaster!
:)

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Re: Debian default desktop environment

Well, it's almost impossible to avoid personal judgments on this matter.
This involves personal taste. But when talking about new users or
not-that-advanced users, I'm really suggesting Gnome 3 to be the choice
of the project.

I know that its size is bigger than Xfce and it takes more resources, but
it represents the evolution of a great desktop environment. And it is (and
looks like) today.

As I said before, we can't deny that a lot of people hate changes. But it's
part of the process. Each product, when getting big changes, faces it.
Windows 8 is a good example.

I'm saying something that the market is showing us: people don't want to
perform magic to make things work these days. They want to press an icon
and get that program to work. Furthermore, they're asking developers to
narrow differences between platforms.

It's not about Gnome, Xfce or whatever desktop environment being focused
only on touchscreen devices or identical to a mobile platform (that would
be terrible for everyone), but at least something that doesn't make people
think that Debian looks like from last decade and don't support new
technologies (although, we all know, none of these being true -- but we
have to show it).


2014-04-04 6:40 GMT-03:00 Chris Bannister cbannis...@slingshot.co.nz:

 On Fri, Apr 04, 2014 at 08:18:41AM +1100, Dmitry Smirnov wrote:
  On Thu, 3 Apr 2014 14:16:15 Undefined User wrote:
   The problem is that right now Debian project is changing its default
   desktop environment, and I think that this is not a good move. Of
 course,
   it all depends on where the project is aiming at, specially on which
 users.
   But, for normal users, Gnome 3 is a way better experience than Xfce.
 
  I think Xfce is much better *default* desktop environment (DE) than
 Gnome.
 
  As KDE fan I do not like Gnome. Those who forget to choose DE in
 installer
  (just like I did more than once) and end up with Xfce will have a lot
 less to

 Yeah, forgetting to press space instead of enter can lead to disaster!
 :)

 --
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 who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the
 oppressing. --- Malcolm X


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Re: Debian default desktop environment

2014-04-04 Thread Kevin Chadwick

previously on this list Undefined User contributed:

 It's not about Gnome, Xfce or whatever desktop environment being focused
 only on touchscreen devices or identical to a mobile platform (that would
 be terrible for everyone), but at least something that doesn't make people
 think that Debian looks like from last decade and don't support new
 technologies (although, we all know, none of these being true -- but we
 have to show it).

I'm not sure I agree or that many care so much. In just the last few
weeks I have had one 80 year old and one 30 year old both say they
wanted the Windows XP interface back over Windows 7/Vista repectively.

Which bit exactly do you think looks like win 98? xfce4-panel;
gnome-panel runs in xfce.

It should take very little to improve the look of xfce and with very
little memory usage increase.

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Re: Debian default desktop environment

2014-04-04 Thread Stephan Seitz


On Fri, Apr 04, 2014 at 10:03:46AM -0300, Undefined User wrote:

This involves personal taste. But when talking about new users or
not-that-advanced users, I'm really suggesting Gnome 3 to be the choice
of the project.


But what are your definitions of „new users”? Someone who has never used 
Linux before (but maybe Windows and wants to change from his old XP, 
I don’t think he will like Gnome3)? Or really a new user?


As far as I understand Gnome3 needs more resources than XFCE and modern 
hardware. The default desktop should be moderate. If you want more eye 
candy and bells and whistles you can install bigger desktop environments.


As far as I know the installer can’t do a hardware check and switch 
desktop environemnts fitting to the system.


I know that its size is bigger than Xfce and it takes more resources, 
but it represents the evolution of a great desktop environment. And it 
is (and looks like) today.


No, it’s terrible and keeps you from getting your work done (at least in 
my case).


As I said before, we can't deny that a lot of people hate changes. But 
it's part of the process. Each product, when getting big changes, faces 
it. Windows 8 is a good example.


Yes, Win8 is horrible. But you don’t have to go that far. I know people 
who refused a new system with Windows 7 because it didn’t work the same 
way as Windows XP. So they kept the old hardware and the old system.


My mother is using Debian 6 with Gnome 2. I don’t know if I will ever 
update this system. Gnome 3 is not a solution, and I’m not interested in 
teaching XFCE.


Shade and sweet water!

Stephan

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Re: Debian default desktop environment

2014-04-04 Thread Chris Bannister

[Please don't top post on this mailing list.]

On Fri, Apr 04, 2014 at 10:03:46AM -0300, Undefined User wrote:
 Well, it's almost impossible to avoid personal judgments on this matter.
 This involves personal taste. But when talking about new users or
 not-that-advanced users, I'm really suggesting Gnome 3 to be the choice
 of the project.

Having a sensible default is not about new users or not-that-advanced
users; there are derivatives which cater for that sort of thing.

-- 
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Re: Debian default desktop environment

2014-04-04 Thread Jonathan Dowland

We go over the same ground over and over. I'm increasingly in favour of *no*
default. You must pick one from a list on install. Randomize the list if
necessary.


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Re: Debian default desktop environment

Perfect solution.

Debian installer should provide you information about desktop environments
and let the user choose it.


2014-04-04 10:52 GMT-03:00 Jonathan Dowland j...@debian.org:

 We go over the same ground over and over. I'm increasingly in favour of
 *no*
 default. You must pick one from a list on install. Randomize the list if
 necessary.


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Re: Debian default desktop environment

Sorry for not deleting the reply text over my last e-mail.

Re: Debian default desktop environment

2014-04-04 Thread The Wanderer

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Hash: SHA512

On 04/04/2014 09:57 AM, Undefined User wrote:

 Sorry for not deleting the reply text over my last e-mail.

Actually, for all that top-posting is a sin, failing to quote at all
when replying is AFAIK generally considered even worse...

(Depending on context, of course; in a Web forum where the message being
replied to is probably still visible when reading the reply, quoting
would be inapproriate. But we're talking about E-mail here.)

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Secrecy is the beginning of tyranny.

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Re: Debian default desktop environment

2014-04-04 Thread Josselin Mouette

Le vendredi 04 avril 2014 à 15:25 +0200, Stephan Seitz a écrit : 
 As far as I understand Gnome3 needs more resources than XFCE 

This is mostly irrelevant. The resources consumed by the desktop are
negligible compared to applications. As soon as you start a browser with
a few tabs on non-trivial websites, 1 GiB of memory is barely enough.
Regardless of the desktop environment.

 and modern hardware. 

This is no longer a requirement in jessie, at least on x86 where
llvmpipe is now accepted as a GL engine.

 The default desktop should be moderate. If you want more eye 
 candy and bells and whistles you can install bigger desktop environments.

The default desktop should be functional and easy to use. I don’t call
features that go in this direction “eye candy” or “bells and whistles”.
Please don’t compare GNOME to Compiz just because it has OpenGL
requirements.

 My mother is using Debian 6 with Gnome 2. I don’t know if I will ever 
 update this system. Gnome 3 is not a solution, and I’m not interested in 
 teaching XFCE.

Looks like you are deciding in place of your mother what is good for
her. And I don’t think you should in this case. GNOME 3 is very popular
among less experienced users, for good reason.

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Re: Debian default desktop environment

2014-04-04 Thread Stephan Seitz


On Fri, Apr 04, 2014 at 04:13:27PM +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote:

Le vendredi 04 avril 2014 à 15:25 +0200, Stephan Seitz a écrit :

and modern hardware.

This is no longer a requirement in jessie, at least on x86 where
llvmpipe is now accepted as a GL engine.


Ah, thank you.


The default desktop should be moderate. If you want more eye
candy and bells and whistles you can install bigger desktop environments.

The default desktop should be functional and easy to use. I don’t call


Yes, and what means „functional”? XFCE is of course functional, heck, 
even fvwm is functional, and I know people who still use it because they 
only have one config file to copy to a new machine and their desktop is 
ready.



My mother is using Debian 6 with Gnome 2. I don’t know if I will ever
update this system. Gnome 3 is not a solution, and I’m not interested in
teaching XFCE.

Looks like you are deciding in place of your mother what is good for
her. And I don’t think you should in this case. GNOME 3 is very popular


Of course I do because she will ask me what she has to do now. She 
doesn’t try and she doesn’t experiment.


Shade and sweet water!

Stephan

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Re: Debian default desktop environment

2014-04-04 Thread Stefano Zacchiroli

On Fri, Apr 04, 2014 at 02:52:41PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
 We go over the same ground over and over. I'm increasingly in favour of *no*
 default. You must pick one from a list on install. Randomize the list if
 necessary.

And can I pass my granddad's phone call on to you when he is stuck
choosing among names that are absolutely obscure to him like GNOME,
Xfce, and KDE?

We are software integrators, making default choices is what we do.

We can't pass the bucket down to our users.

-- 
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Maître de conférences . . . . . http://upsilon.cc/zack . . . o . . . o o
Former Debian Project Leader  . . @zack on identi.ca . . o o o . . . o .
« the first rule of tautology club is the first rule of tautology club »


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Re: Debian default desktop environment

2014-04-04 11:42 GMT-03:00 Stefano Zacchiroli z...@debian.org:

 And can I pass my granddad's phone call on to you when he is stuck
 choosing among names that are absolutely obscure to him like GNOME,
 Xfce, and KDE?


Not giving the user a taste of the options, well... Yes, I agree, it's
pretty hard to solve it this way.

In addition to that, it's very important for us to understand that an
average user (someone that just surfs the internet ou work with text
editors) don't separate/discriminate the OS from the desktop environment.
On Wheezy, for example, they would think that Debian is Gnome 3, because
it is included in the whole default installation package.


2014-04-04 11:42 GMT-03:00 Stefano Zacchiroli z...@debian.org:

 On Fri, Apr 04, 2014 at 02:52:41PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
  We go over the same ground over and over. I'm increasingly in favour of
 *no*
  default. You must pick one from a list on install. Randomize the list if
  necessary.

 And can I pass my granddad's phone call on to you when he is stuck
 choosing among names that are absolutely obscure to him like GNOME,
 Xfce, and KDE?

 We are software integrators, making default choices is what we do.

 We can't pass the bucket down to our users.

 --
 Stefano Zacchiroli  . . . . . . .  z...@upsilon.cc . . . . o . . . o . o
 Maître de conférences . . . . . http://upsilon.cc/zack . . . o . . . o o
 Former Debian Project Leader  . . @zack on identi.ca . . o o o . . . o .
 « the first rule of tautology club is the first rule of tautology club »

Re: Debian default desktop environment

2014-04-04 11:04 GMT-03:00 The Wanderer wande...@fastmail.fm:

 Actually, for all that top-posting is a sin, failing to quote at all
 when replying is AFAIK generally considered even worse...

 (Depending on context, of course; in a Web forum where the message being
 replied to is probably still visible when reading the reply, quoting
 would be inapproriate. But we're talking about E-mail here.)



Duly noted. I will be more careful when replying.

Re: Debian default desktop environment

2014-04-04 Thread Sune Vuorela

On 2014-04-03, Dmitry Smirnov only...@debian.org wrote:
 As KDE fan I do not like Gnome. Those who forget to choose DE in instal=
 ler=20

Part of me wants to have KDE Plasma Desktop as the default workspace,
because it is completely awesome.

Other parts of me is happy that it is not the default because then we
don't have all sorts of weird wishes about oh noes. networkmanager or
Please use this non-integrated piece of messaging software because it
does something that no one uses.

/Sune


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Re: Debian default desktop environment

2014-04-04 Thread Hashem Nasarat

On 04/04/2014 10:36 AM, Stephan Seitz wrote:
 On Fri, Apr 04, 2014 at 04:13:27PM +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote:
 Le vendredi 04 avril 2014 à 15:25 +0200, Stephan Seitz a écrit :
 and modern hardware.
 This is no longer a requirement in jessie, at least on x86 where
 llvmpipe is now accepted as a GL engine.
 
 Ah, thank you.
 
 The default desktop should be moderate. If you want more eye
 candy and bells and whistles you can install bigger desktop
 environments.
 The default desktop should be functional and easy to use. I don’t call
 
 Yes, and what means „functional”? XFCE is of course functional, heck,
 even fvwm is functional, and I know people who still use it because they
 only have one config file to copy to a new machine and their desktop is
 ready.

XFCE (at least the version in Debian 8) doesn't automatically handle
external monitors, which is a pretty significant use-case for all kinds
of users.

I do not think it's fair to expect a new user to be configure xrandr or
find  install a 3rd party xrandr GUI.

On the other hand, experienced users are familiar enough to install
whichever environment they wish. Perhaps a compromise is to have GNOME
the default and then XFCE as a bare-bones GUI or something.


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Re: Debian default desktop environment

2014-04-04 Thread Jonathan Dowland

On Fri, Apr 04, 2014 at 04:42:19PM +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
 And can I pass my granddad's phone call on to you when he is stuck
 choosing among names that are absolutely obscure to him like GNOME,
 Xfce, and KDE?

No, just say pick a random one. Surely they'll all be entirely appropriate
for your grandad by the time we release jessie ;)


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Re: Debian default desktop environment

2014-04-04 Thread Stephan Heidinger

On 04.04.2014 17:15, Hashem Nasarat wrote:
 On the other hand, experienced users are familiar enough to install
 whichever environment they wish. Perhaps a compromise is to have GNOME
 the default and then XFCE as a bare-bones GUI or something.

Why then install an alternative at all. Experienced users install what
they want anyways. The DEs working best for unexperienced users would
be the DEs that do much work themselves, that is multi display,
network(-manager), easy (GUI) ways to change stuff like time, date,
language, sound, (themes), … Therefore the default should probably be
looked around the bigger ones like Gnome, KDE, (Cinnamon when its included).

Stephan
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Re: Debian default desktop environment

2014-04-04 Thread Kevin Chadwick

previously on this list people contributed:

 Why then install an alternative at all. Experienced users install what
 they want anyways. The DEs working best for unexperienced users would
 be the DEs that do much work themselves,

Xfce allows more options and choice by default on a cd and
unexperienced users have a better chance of loading synaptic and a web
browser on xfce than heavier desktops and is meant to be more stable.

Hasn't Gnome or just GTK3? just removed cue tips shortcuts too affecting
mouse/touchless systems.

 XFCE (at least the version in Debian 8) doesn't automatically handle
 external monitors, which is a pretty significant use-case for all kinds
 of users.
 

I don't want to reboot right now but xfce4-display-settings in debian 7
does atleast after you have run xrandr and I would guess if plugged in
during boot up as my second screen comes up by itself with it's own
panels when it is.

 I do not think it's fair to expect a new user to be configure xrandr or
 find  install a 3rd party xrandr GUI.

You could add lxrandr to the default and the DE would still be smaller
than gnome. How modular is Gnome, you could even use their display
management tools until newer versions of xfce hit debian stable,
atleast you should be able to? 

I know xfce 4.11 might take some time to hit stable and has some extra
tweaks such as for having screens above and below each other. Perhaps
having an xfce backports choice during install is another idea but I
guess that couldn't be supported.

-- 
___

'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work
together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a
universal interface'

(Doug McIlroy)

In Other Words - Don't design like polkit or systemd
___

I have no idea why RTFM is used so aggressively on LINUX mailing lists
because whilst 'apropos' is traditionally the most powerful command on
Unix-like systems it's 'modern' replacement 'apropos' on Linux is a tool
to help psychopaths learn to control their anger.

(Kevin Chadwick)

___


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Re: Debian default desktop environment

2014-04-04 Thread Russ Allbery

Sune Vuorela nos...@vuorela.dk writes:

 Part of me wants to have KDE Plasma Desktop as the default workspace,
 because it is completely awesome.

 Other parts of me is happy that it is not the default because then we
 don't have all sorts of weird wishes about oh noes. networkmanager or
 Please use this non-integrated piece of messaging software because it
 does something that no one uses.

We should change the default desktop environment with each release so that
each maintenance team gets to share in the fun!  It's like a giant hazing
ritual.  :)

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Re: Debian default desktop environment

2014-04-04 Thread Amy Rice

Is it a bad idea in the end not to include a desktop at all,
and the user can install one at their own discretion?

On 4/4/2014 8:55 AM, Undefined User wrote:
 Perfect solution.

 Debian installer should provide you information about desktop
 environments and let the user choose it.


 2014-04-04 10:52 GMT-03:00 Jonathan Dowland j...@debian.org
 mailto:j...@debian.org:

 We go over the same ground over and over. I'm increasingly in
 favour of *no*
 default. You must pick one from a list on install. Randomize the
 list if
 necessary.


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Re: Debian default desktop environment