Re: [RESOLVED] -- Re: Problems with clean install of fvwm
On 2018-02-24, Richard Owlett wrote: > > I had used netinst to do a base command line only install followed by > doing "apt-get install fvwm". > > Didn't work. It needed "apt-get install xorg lightdm". It worked perfectly. -- “Be yourself; everyone else is already taken.” -Oscar Wilde
[RESOLVED] -- Re: Problems with clean install of fvwm
On 02/23/2018 05:46 AM, Richard Owlett wrote: History I run MATE, but to paraphrase a restaurant - "I want Debian MyWay" ;) It was suggested that I wanted what KDE calls "activities". It looked promising. I installed it. It suffers from featuritis. fvwm-crystal was also suggested. When installed it was in some sense "cleaner" but still too busy. Launched fvwm which had been installed by the fvwm-crystal package. The problem It had "inherited" configuration items from fvwm-crystal. The web pages I had read spoke of a default 1st run display. I could not figure out how to get that to appear. Having adequate space available I used netinst to do a base command line only install to a new partition. It was followed by doing "apt-get install fvwm". I rebooted expecting a minimal fvwm display. I got a command line. I found that though a "/home/richard/.fvwm" directory had been created, it was empty. I couldn't find copies of what files should have been there on initial first run. Only instructions/examples for adding this or that doodad. Help please. TIA Found the underlying problem. The design team measures success in terms of "elegance" and "completeness". There is a sub-class of "retail customers" {so to speak} who want it to "just work *as expected*" ;} This example of that sub-class is by philosophy a "minimalist" and by circumstances "resource constrained". I have a single laptop {no need/desire/justification for LAN} who would not suffer if circumstances moved him back to using 56k dial-up. I had used netinst to do a base command line only install followed by doing "apt-get install fvwm". Didn't work. It needed "apt-get install xorg lightdm". I've been gnawing on aspects of the problem since Squeeze. The best idea I've come up with is having a tool that can author a custom preseed.cfg file. One of the goals being not to touch or affect the internals of the Debian installer. Has anyone tried something similar? An _owl_ now _ducks_ for cover :}
Re: Problems with clean install of fvwm
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 09:57:12AM -0600, Richard Owlett wrote: [...] > I just did "apt-get install xorg". > Now typing "startx" at command line does give me a fvwm screen. So fvwm is running already (more below) > However typing "fvwm" at command line gives > >[fvwm][main] <> can't open display You are trying to start it off a console not "in" X? This won't work -- fvwm needs (as every X application) to know which X server to talk to. This is usually done via the DISPLAY environment variable. So to start fvwm you would have either to start it from "whithin" the X session (e.g. from an XTerm running in there, or more typically from an X session init script) or you'd have to provide the "display" address yourself. The canonical way of doing that is that X invokes a session init script (in your trusty debian somewhere /etc/X11/Xsession, which collects bits and pieces in /etc/X11/Xsession.d -- therein 50x11-common_determine-startup should be doing the window manager magic for you. So that's probably why X "does give me a fvwm screen" above, if I got you correctly. > What's still to be installed/configured? > Would this be a bug against the fvwm package for not installing and > configuring xorg? All should be well (or I misunderstood you) Cheers - -- t -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlqQR80ACgkQBcgs9XrR2kauNQCggJWzWudyCiVdrTZ3BZL+3eGl 2ikAoIHgJByHyanoAMWnssJTne906BFr =d1q8 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Problems with clean install of fvwm
On Fri 23 Feb 2018 at 09:57:12 -0600, Richard Owlett wrote: > I just did "apt-get install xorg". > Now typing "startx" at command line does give me a fvwm screen. Fine. Now use the mouse (click) to get a menu. > However typing "fvwm" at command line gives > > [fvwm][main] <> can't open display Do you mean you typed 'fvwm' instead of 'startx'? If you did - stop doing it. > What's still to be installed/configured? Nothing. > Would this be a bug against the fvwm package for not installing and > configuring xorg? No. -- Brian.
Re: Problems with clean install of fvwm
David Wright writes: > It doesn't mean that if you install a package designed to run on X > that apt will immediately install all the packages required for a > functional X system. Fvwm does not depend on an X server because it might be running on a headless machine while an X server is running on the machine the user is sitting in front of. The X Window System is a *network* system. Every window on your screen could be coming from a different remote computer. So could the window manager, which is just another process to the X server. Install the xorg package. -- John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com Elmwood, WI USA
Re: Problems with clean install of fvwm
On Fri 23 Feb 2018 at 16:56:19 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 09:12:04AM -0600, Richard Owlett wrote: > > > > To clarify I got a console command line (Whole screen is one window > > with no graphical ornaments !) > > Aha. As someone already said in this thread, it seems you have no > X installed. Package xserver-xorg, I'd guess... 'apt install xorg' is better for most users (which includes the OP). > > I tried issuing "startx" itself and received "command not found". > Hm. This one is in package xinit, which is not a necessary part > of X. So not a bad omen in itself. xorg depends on xinit. > > When I had initially done "apt-get install fvwm", should some > > portion of the Xsystem been installed? > > Yes, I'd venture your X server is missing. To answer the question as posed - no. An xserver is a display device. It runs on the machine the user is sat in front of. The program to be displayed (fvwm in this case) can be located on any machine on the network, like the supercomputer a few thousand miles away. The speed of display will be limited by the network connection. Over dial-up, fvwm and xorg may as well be on the same machine. So, you are correct and helpful - but didn't (as you usually do) answer the question. ;) -- Brian.
Re: Problems with clean install of fvwm
On Fri 23 Feb 2018 at 10:23:53 (-0600), David Wright wrote: > > #!/bin/sh > exec /usr/bin/fvwm >| $HOME/.fvwm-stdout 2>| $HOME/.fvwm-stderr & > WMPID=$! This line got wrapped; sorry. > xterm … > xterm … > swisswatch -title local -noshape > xconsole -name console -file /dev/xconsole -exitOnFail > xclock -strftime "%a %d" > # and so on > # wait for the window manager in the background to die > wait $WMPID A clean copy: #!/bin/sh exec /usr/bin/fvwm >| $HOME/.fvwm-stdout 2>| $HOME/.fvwm-stderr & WMPID=$! xterm … xterm … swisswatch -title local -noshape xconsole -name console -file /dev/xconsole -exitOnFail xclock -strftime "%a %d" # and so on # wait for the window manager in the background to die wait $WMPID Cheers, David.
Re: Problems with clean install of fvwm
On Fri 23 Feb 2018 at 09:57:12 (-0600), Richard Owlett wrote: > On 02/23/2018 09:12 AM, Richard Owlett wrote: > >On 02/23/2018 05:46 AM, Richard Owlett wrote: > >>History > >>I run MATE, but to paraphrase a restaurant - "I want Debian MyWay" ;) > >>It was suggested that I wanted what KDE calls "activities". > >>It looked promising. I installed it. It suffers from featuritis. > >>fvwm-crystal was also suggested. When installed it was in some > >>sense "cleaner" but still too busy. Launched fvwm which had been > >>installed by the fvwm-crystal package. > >> > >>The problem > >>It had "inherited" configuration items from fvwm-crystal. The > >>web pages I had read spoke of a default 1st run display. I could > >>not figure out how to get that to appear. > >> > >>Having adequate space available I used netinst to do a base > >>command line only install to a new partition. It was followed by > >>doing "apt-get install fvwm". > >> > >>I rebooted expecting a minimal fvwm display. I got a command line. > > > >To clarify I got a console command line (Whole screen is one > >window with no graphical ornaments !) > > > >>I found that though a "/home/richard/.fvwm" directory had been > >>created, it was empty. I couldn't find copies of what files > >>should have been there on initial first run. Only > >>instructions/examples for adding this or that doodad. > >> > > > >It was suggested that > >>So to get you kick-started, > >>just create a file named "config" in your /home/richard/.fvwm > >>consisting of this one line: > >> > >> Read /usr/share/fvwm/default-config/config > >That did not solve my problem. > > > >I copied the file at > >http://www.einval.com/~steve/debian/fvwm2rc.example to > >/home/richard/.fvwm2rc . > >I then executed `fvwm2 -f "FvwmM4 .fvwm2rc"' > >The result was " [fvwm][main] <> can't open display > > > >Reasoning by analogy with use of startx I had tried "fvwm" at the > >command line and received "can't open display". > > > >I tried issuing "startx" itself and received "command not found". > > > >When I had initially done "apt-get install fvwm", should some > >portion of the Xsystem been installed? > > > >TIA > > I just did "apt-get install xorg". > Now typing "startx" at command line does give me a fvwm screen. > However typing "fvwm" at command line gives > >[fvwm][main] <> can't open display > > What's still to be installed/configured? > Would this be a bug against the fvwm package for not installing and > configuring xorg? >From https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2018/02/msg00794.html As mentioned in another thread just now, I run X with startx. I've always stuck to the Debian Way™ which means using ~/.xsession rather than ~/.xinitrc. Stripped down to the essentials, my ~/.xsession consists of: #!/bin/sh exec /usr/bin/fvwm >| $HOME/.fvwm-stdout 2>| $HOME/.fvwm-stderr & WMPID=$! xterm … xterm … swisswatch -title local -noshape xconsole -name console -file /dev/xconsole -exitOnFail xclock -strftime "%a %d" # and so on # wait for the window manager in the background to die wait $WMPID IOW you run it in your ~/.xsession as X starts up, not from the command line. Cheers, David.
Re: Problems with clean install of fvwm
On Fri 23 Feb 2018 at 09:12:04 (-0600), Richard Owlett wrote: > On 02/23/2018 05:46 AM, Richard Owlett wrote: > >History > >I run MATE, but to paraphrase a restaurant - "I want Debian MyWay" ;) > >It was suggested that I wanted what KDE calls "activities". > >It looked promising. I installed it. It suffers from featuritis. > >fvwm-crystal was also suggested. When installed it was in some > >sense "cleaner" but still too busy. Launched fvwm which had been > >installed by the fvwm-crystal package. > > > >The problem > >It had "inherited" configuration items from fvwm-crystal. The web > >pages I had read spoke of a default 1st run display. I could not > >figure out how to get that to appear. > > > >Having adequate space available I used netinst to do a base > >command line only install to a new partition. It was followed by > >doing "apt-get install fvwm". > > > >I rebooted expecting a minimal fvwm display. I got a command line. > > To clarify I got a console command line (Whole screen is one window > with no graphical ornaments !) > > >I found that though a "/home/richard/.fvwm" directory had been > >created, it was empty. I couldn't find copies of what files should > >have been there on initial first run. Only instructions/examples > >for adding this or that doodad. > > > > It was suggested that > >So to get you kick-started, > >just create a file named "config" in your /home/richard/.fvwm > >consisting of this one line: > > > > Read /usr/share/fvwm/default-config/config > That did not solve my problem. > > I copied the file at > http://www.einval.com/~steve/debian/fvwm2rc.example to > /home/richard/.fvwm2rc . > I then executed `fvwm2 -f "FvwmM4 .fvwm2rc"' > The result was " [fvwm][main] <> can't open display > > Reasoning by analogy with use of startx I had tried "fvwm" at the > command line and received "can't open display". > > I tried issuing "startx" itself and received "command not found". > > When I had initially done "apt-get install fvwm", should some > portion of the Xsystem been installed? It sounds to me as if you're misinterpreting the concept of Debian's dependencies. The idea is that when you install package A (which needs library B) and run it, the call to library B doesn't point into outer space but into an installed library. It doesn't mean that if you install a package designed to run on X that apt will immediately install all the packages required for a functional X system. So what fvwm does is to run, look around, then say "I don't see anything upon which I could usefully perform, so it gives up in good order after saying why. Cheers, David.
Re: Problems with clean install of fvwm
On 02/23/2018 09:12 AM, Richard Owlett wrote: On 02/23/2018 05:46 AM, Richard Owlett wrote: History I run MATE, but to paraphrase a restaurant - "I want Debian MyWay" ;) It was suggested that I wanted what KDE calls "activities". It looked promising. I installed it. It suffers from featuritis. fvwm-crystal was also suggested. When installed it was in some sense "cleaner" but still too busy. Launched fvwm which had been installed by the fvwm-crystal package. The problem It had "inherited" configuration items from fvwm-crystal. The web pages I had read spoke of a default 1st run display. I could not figure out how to get that to appear. Having adequate space available I used netinst to do a base command line only install to a new partition. It was followed by doing "apt-get install fvwm". I rebooted expecting a minimal fvwm display. I got a command line. To clarify I got a console command line (Whole screen is one window with no graphical ornaments !) I found that though a "/home/richard/.fvwm" directory had been created, it was empty. I couldn't find copies of what files should have been there on initial first run. Only instructions/examples for adding this or that doodad. It was suggested that So to get you kick-started, just create a file named "config" in your /home/richard/.fvwm consisting of this one line: Read /usr/share/fvwm/default-config/config That did not solve my problem. I copied the file at http://www.einval.com/~steve/debian/fvwm2rc.example to /home/richard/.fvwm2rc . I then executed `fvwm2 -f "FvwmM4 .fvwm2rc"' The result was " [fvwm][main] <> can't open display Reasoning by analogy with use of startx I had tried "fvwm" at the command line and received "can't open display". I tried issuing "startx" itself and received "command not found". When I had initially done "apt-get install fvwm", should some portion of the Xsystem been installed? TIA I just did "apt-get install xorg". Now typing "startx" at command line does give me a fvwm screen. However typing "fvwm" at command line gives [fvwm][main] <> can't open display What's still to be installed/configured? Would this be a bug against the fvwm package for not installing and configuring xorg?
Re: Problems with clean install of fvwm
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 09:12:04AM -0600, Richard Owlett wrote: [...] > To clarify I got a console command line (Whole screen is one window > with no graphical ornaments !) Aha. As someone already said in this thread, it seems you have no X installed. Package xserver-xorg, I'd guess... > I tried issuing "startx" itself and received "command not found". Hm. This one is in package xinit, which is not a necessary part of X. So not a bad omen in itself. > When I had initially done "apt-get install fvwm", should some > portion of the Xsystem been installed? Yes, I'd venture your X server is missing. Cheers - -- t -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlqQOaMACgkQBcgs9XrR2kbd4ACfV7A7U+gc+Jjh23LiMx8/MsJE jQMAnR17hNtIYOUZaCXda85B/Rqggnla =oA0h -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Problems with clean install of fvwm
On 02/23/2018 05:46 AM, Richard Owlett wrote: History I run MATE, but to paraphrase a restaurant - "I want Debian MyWay" ;) It was suggested that I wanted what KDE calls "activities". It looked promising. I installed it. It suffers from featuritis. fvwm-crystal was also suggested. When installed it was in some sense "cleaner" but still too busy. Launched fvwm which had been installed by the fvwm-crystal package. The problem It had "inherited" configuration items from fvwm-crystal. The web pages I had read spoke of a default 1st run display. I could not figure out how to get that to appear. Having adequate space available I used netinst to do a base command line only install to a new partition. It was followed by doing "apt-get install fvwm". I rebooted expecting a minimal fvwm display. I got a command line. To clarify I got a console command line (Whole screen is one window with no graphical ornaments !) I found that though a "/home/richard/.fvwm" directory had been created, it was empty. I couldn't find copies of what files should have been there on initial first run. Only instructions/examples for adding this or that doodad. It was suggested that So to get you kick-started, just create a file named "config" in your /home/richard/.fvwm consisting of this one line: Read /usr/share/fvwm/default-config/config That did not solve my problem. I copied the file at http://www.einval.com/~steve/debian/fvwm2rc.example to /home/richard/.fvwm2rc . I then executed `fvwm2 -f "FvwmM4 .fvwm2rc"' The result was " [fvwm][main] <> can't open display Reasoning by analogy with use of startx I had tried "fvwm" at the command line and received "can't open display". I tried issuing "startx" itself and received "command not found". When I had initially done "apt-get install fvwm", should some portion of the Xsystem been installed? TIA
Re: Problems with clean install of fvwm
Richard Owlett writes: > I rebooted expecting a minimal fvwm display. I got a command line. I > found that though a "/home/richard/.fvwm" directory had been created, > it was empty. I couldn't find copies of what files should have been > there on initial first run. Only instructions/examples for adding this > or that doodad. You should get an empty display. Clicking it should get you a menu. One of the choices should be some sort of configuration widget. I've never used it: like most fvwm users I have a highly idiosyncratic config that has evolved over many years. You should install all the recommended and and suggested packages. The default config others have suggested is a good starting point. However, the fact that you got a command line is a problem. Did you install a display manager? If not you need to start X manually. -- John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com Elmwood, WI USA
Re: Problems with clean install of fvwm
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 08:43:42AM -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote: > On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 02:21:11PM +0100, Thomas Schmitt wrote: > > Hi, > > > > tracker.debian.org tells me that there is a default configuration file in > > > > https://sources.debian.org/data/main/f/fvwm/1:2.6.7-3/default-config/config > > which is the download view of > > https://sources.debian.org/src/fvwm/1:2.6.7-3/default-config/config/ > > > > It looks like a clean starting point for modification and enhancement. > > I'd put it on disk as: ~/.fvwm2rc > > >From the fvwm(1) man page: > >Here is the complete list of all >file locations queried in the default installation (only the first >found file is used): > >$HOME/.fvwm/config >/usr/local/share/fvwm/config > >$HOME/.fvwm/.fvwm2rc >$HOME/.fvwm2rc >/usr/local/share/fvwm/.fvwm2rc >/usr/local/share/fvwm/system.fvwm2rc >/etc/system.fvwm2rc Now, /usr/local isn't a good place for distribution files. For the Debian-distributed fvwm I'd expect things to be in /usr/share (and so on). And yes, you'll find things in /usr/share, except that config is "hidden" in a sub-directory, like so: /usr/share/fvwm/default-config/config (as I noted in my previous post, btw). Probably to avoid interfering with an already existing local config, I don't know. Cheers - -- tomás -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlqQHZYACgkQBcgs9XrR2kYFFQCfc0LLy0YRPIKSbG0UAeyHqm+Z l1kAn3Vo9SQa4WhPrthFxWKnMSd2nEpB =L5/P -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Problems with clean install of fvwm
On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 02:21:11PM +0100, Thomas Schmitt wrote: > Hi, > > tracker.debian.org tells me that there is a default configuration file in > https://sources.debian.org/data/main/f/fvwm/1:2.6.7-3/default-config/config > which is the download view of > https://sources.debian.org/src/fvwm/1:2.6.7-3/default-config/config/ > > It looks like a clean starting point for modification and enhancement. > I'd put it on disk as: ~/.fvwm2rc >From the fvwm(1) man page: Here is the complete list of all file locations queried in the default installation (only the first found file is used): $HOME/.fvwm/config /usr/local/share/fvwm/config $HOME/.fvwm/.fvwm2rc $HOME/.fvwm2rc /usr/local/share/fvwm/.fvwm2rc /usr/local/share/fvwm/system.fvwm2rc /etc/system.fvwm2rc Please note, the last 5 locations are not guaranteed to be supported in the future.
Re: Problems with clean install of fvwm
Hi, tracker.debian.org tells me that there is a default configuration file in https://sources.debian.org/data/main/f/fvwm/1:2.6.7-3/default-config/config which is the download view of https://sources.debian.org/src/fvwm/1:2.6.7-3/default-config/config/ It looks like a clean starting point for modification and enhancement. I'd put it on disk as: ~/.fvwm2rc Usage instructions # The root menu will PopUp with a click in the root # window or using alt-f1 (or menu). This menu is supposed to offer items like "Programs" and "XTerm". >From there on it should be possible to edit the configuration and to then choose "Restart" from the root menu to apply it. (An early experiment could be to add + "I" Module FvwmCommandS to StartFunction in order to be able to run shell command FvwmCommand for testing single fvwm commands.) Have a nice day :) Thomas
Re: Problems with clean install of fvwm
Hi, Richard Owlett wrote: > fvwm-crystal was also suggested. When installed it was in some sense > "cleaner" but still too busy. Launched fvwm which had been installed by the > fvwm-crystal package. There's not much configuration in the fvwm package of Debian, indeed. > I rebooted expecting a minimal fvwm display. I got a command line. A console command line ? (Whole screen is one window with no graphical ornaments ?) Iirc, i got an empty screen with no input opportunity but a pull-down menu by right mouse button, where i could start an xterm. As stated earlier, i then copied my ~/.fvwm2rc from backup to my newly installed Debian. You will have to start with some example configuration and then adapt it until suits your expectations. There are many. But there is the problem of trusting such software. Steve McIntyre's example would be trustworthy https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2015/08/msg00464.html http://www.einval.com/~steve/debian/fvwm2rc.example because you trust Steve with each and every Debian installation. I cannot say, though, how easy it will be to adapt. # Heavy use of m4 here - needs to be called as `fvwm2 -f "FvwmM4 .fvwm2rc"' I could also give you mine. With many of its lines i should be able to tell why i have them and what they do. But some might be surprising for me too. Not all are necessarily supposed to do something usable. I have an empty ~/.fvwm directory too. It does not hamper my ~/.fvwm2rc. Give me a note if i shall send it to you in private. (I will have to check it for embarrassing personal details first ...) Have a nice day :) Thomas
Re: Problems with clean install of fvwm
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 05:46:40AM -0600, Richard Owlett wrote: > I rebooted expecting a minimal fvwm display. I got a command line. > I found that though a "/home/richard/.fvwm" directory had been > created, it was empty. I couldn't find copies of what files should > have been there on initial first run. Only instructions/examples for > adding this or that doodad. The place for fvwm's default system-wide config in Debian seems to be /usr/share/fvwm/default-config/config. So to get you kick-started, just create a file named "config" in your /home/richard/.fvwm consisting of this one line: Read /usr/share/fvwm/default-config/config (leading space just here, for readability). Be warned that fvwm's config language is... idiosyncratic. But copiously documented in man pages. There are people out there (yes, I'm one of them) for whom fvwm is just what the doctor ordered. Cheers - -- t -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlqQAmYACgkQBcgs9XrR2kYAQwCfSrx8kCP65/hGc2CspHM9L9Kv l70An1Mfn/cfWlf88/zHrsA1Oo0tVxC+ =WaSW -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Problems with clean install of fvwm
History I run MATE, but to paraphrase a restaurant - "I want Debian MyWay" ;) It was suggested that I wanted what KDE calls "activities". It looked promising. I installed it. It suffers from featuritis. fvwm-crystal was also suggested. When installed it was in some sense "cleaner" but still too busy. Launched fvwm which had been installed by the fvwm-crystal package. The problem It had "inherited" configuration items from fvwm-crystal. The web pages I had read spoke of a default 1st run display. I could not figure out how to get that to appear. Having adequate space available I used netinst to do a base command line only install to a new partition. It was followed by doing "apt-get install fvwm". I rebooted expecting a minimal fvwm display. I got a command line. I found that though a "/home/richard/.fvwm" directory had been created, it was empty. I couldn't find copies of what files should have been there on initial first run. Only instructions/examples for adding this or that doodad. Help please. TIA