Re: Logout at apt upgrade
On Sat 03 Dec 2022 at 08:19:48 (+0100), Loïc Grenié wrote: > On Sat Dec, 3, 2022 at 04:03, David Wright wrote: > > Yes, hence my comment on potential interactions between different > > packages. The OP mentioned udev, but in their OP they talked about > > manually restarting systemd services. I was under the impression > > that systemd and udev are upgraded in step, and AFAICT (as I'm not > > running bookworm or sid), they've had half a dozen upgrades in the > > last two months. Plenty of scope for interactions there. > > I run sid and am usually able to resolve the problems by myself. > The fact is that during some upgrades X gets killed unexpectedly, > without any warning, and on the console I see that some services > do not start. The obvious questions are which services, and are they consistently the same ones. > I usually reboot but it's annoying; a couple of kills ago > I tried to manually restart the failed services, and it's very time > consuming. > I still don't know *what upgrade(s)* kill(s) X. I have suspected > logind, libpam and udev, but I don't know for sure. I'll try udevadm > monitor as you suggested. > > Hence I asked if anybody else experienced the same behaviour, > and implicitly what I could do to prevent those X kills. An obvious answer is to shut down X yourself in order to see whether there's any link between X being killed and whether/which services fail to restart. Inevitably, this raises the question of why you might not want to shut down X for upgrades. (I fall in the camp of people who boot systems/start X/etc into known initial states. There is an opposite camp that prefers the restoration of the previous state of the system/their session. I believe there are packages to help with this, but I'm not familiar with them. My sole (and partial) exception is Firefox.) Beyond these generalities about note-taking/reporting and problem disection, I'm still not much help on the specifics. Cheers, David.
Re: Logout at apt upgrade
On Sat Dec, 3, 2022 at 04:03, David Wright wrote: > On Fri 02 Dec 2022 at 21:33:45 (-0500), The Wanderer wrote: > > > > FWIW: > > > > $ apt-cache policy udev > > udev: > > Installed: 252.1-1 > > Candidate: 252.1-1 > > Version table: > > *** 252.1-1 900 > > 900 http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian testing/main amd64 Packages > > 100 /var/lib/dpkg/status > > 247.3-7+deb11u1 800 > > 800 http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian stable/main amd64 Packages > > > > IOW, this version isn't only in sid, it's also in testing. > > Yes, hence my comment on potential interactions between different > packages. The OP mentioned udev, but in their OP they talked about > manually restarting systemd services. I was under the impression > that systemd and udev are upgraded in step, and AFAICT (as I'm not > running bookworm or sid), they've had half a dozen upgrades in the > last two months. Plenty of scope for interactions there. > I run sid and am usually able to resolve the problems by myself. The fact is that during some upgrades X gets killed unexpectedly, without any warning, and on the console I see that some services do not start. I usually reboot but it's annoying; a couple of kills ago I tried to manually restart the failed services, and it's very time consuming. I still don't know *what upgrade(s)* kill(s) X. I have suspected logind, libpam and udev, but I don't know for sure. I'll try udevadm monitor as you suggested. Hence I asked if anybody else experienced the same behaviour, and implicitly what I could do to prevent those X kills. > Anyway, with my not having had similar problems, and receiving > confirmation that I'm not running the same revision, I'm not the > one to help troubleshoot this. (Boy, that's a load of negatives.) > Thanks for your help! That's a positive! Loïc
Re: Logout at apt upgrade
On Fri 02 Dec 2022 at 21:33:45 (-0500), The Wanderer wrote: > > FWIW: > > $ apt-cache policy udev > udev: > Installed: 252.1-1 > Candidate: 252.1-1 > Version table: > *** 252.1-1 900 > 900 http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian testing/main amd64 Packages > 100 /var/lib/dpkg/status > 247.3-7+deb11u1 800 > 800 http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian stable/main amd64 Packages > > IOW, this version isn't only in sid, it's also in testing. Yes, hence my comment on potential interactions between different packages. The OP mentioned udev, but in their OP they talked about manually restarting systemd services. I was under the impression that systemd and udev are upgraded in step, and AFAICT (as I'm not running bookworm or sid), they've had half a dozen upgrades in the last two months. Plenty of scope for interactions there. Anyway, with my not having had similar problems, and receiving confirmation that I'm not running the same revision, I'm not the one to help troubleshoot this. (Boy, that's a load of negatives.) Cheers, David.
Re: Logout at apt upgrade
On 2022-12-02 at 21:04, David Wright wrote: > On Fri 02 Dec 2022 at 09:04:35 (+0100), Loïc Grenié wrote: > >> On Fri Dec 2 2022 at 04:31, David Wright wrote: >>> AFAICT udev was upgraded from 247.3-7 to 247.3-7+deb11u1 in early >>> September, so which distribution are /you/ running? >> >> % lsb_release -a >> No LSB modules are available. >> Distributor ID: Debian >> Description:Debian GNU/Linux bookworm/sid >> Release:n/a >> Codename: bookworm >> >> % LANG=C dpkg -l udev >> Desired=Unknown/Install/Remove/Purge/Hold >> | >> Status=Not/Inst/Conf-files/Unpacked/halF-conf/Half-inst/trig-aWait/Trig-pend >> |/ Err?=(none)/Reinst-required (Status,Err: uppercase=bad) >> ||/ Name Version Architecture Description >> +++-==---=== >> ii udev 252.1-1 amd64/dev/ and hotplug management >> daemon > > That does put a different complexion on your problem. I think that > with sid you are expected to do some troubleshooting of your own. FWIW: $ apt-cache policy udev udev: Installed: 252.1-1 Candidate: 252.1-1 Version table: *** 252.1-1 900 900 http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian testing/main amd64 Packages 100 /var/lib/dpkg/status 247.3-7+deb11u1 800 800 http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian stable/main amd64 Packages IOW, this version isn't only in sid, it's also in testing. -- The Wanderer The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Logout at apt upgrade
On Fri 02 Dec 2022 at 09:04:35 (+0100), Loïc Grenié wrote: > On Fri Dec 2 2022 at 04:31, David Wright wrote: > > On Wed 30 Nov 2022 at 14:25:19 (+0100), Loïc Grenié wrote: > > > Happened once again. This time I think the culprit was udev (but I > > > cannot > > > be too sure). Among the updated package nothing should have killed X: > > > beyond udev there was a bunch of libreoffice and related (not using > > right > > > now), zathura (not using), not much more, at the very least, nothing > > that > > > looked susceptible to trigger a session crash. > > > > AFAICT udev was upgraded from 247.3-7 to 247.3-7+deb11u1 in > > early September, so which distribution are /you/ running? > > > % lsb_release -a > No LSB modules are available. > Distributor ID: Debian > Description:Debian GNU/Linux bookworm/sid > Release:n/a > Codename: bookworm > > % LANG=C dpkg -l udev > Desired=Unknown/Install/Remove/Purge/Hold > | > Status=Not/Inst/Conf-files/Unpacked/halF-conf/Half-inst/trig-aWait/Trig-pend > |/ Err?=(none)/Reinst-required (Status,Err: uppercase=bad) > ||/ Name Version Architecture Description > +++-==---=== > ii udev 252.1-1 amd64/dev/ and hotplug management > daemon That does put a different complexion on your problem. I think that with sid you are expected to do some troubleshooting of your own. For example, if you suspect udev, you could run udevadm monitor … while upgrades are in progress, to see whether specific triggers are causing a problem. Etc. You also have to bear in mind that different users may have held or upgraded different versions of packages, and not get the same problems when caused by interaction between them. Perhaps see: https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2021/02/msg00381.html (updating the codenames by one release). Cheers, David.
Re: Logout at apt upgrade
On Fri Dec 2 2022 at 04:31, David Wright wrote: > On Wed 30 Nov 2022 at 14:25:19 (+0100), Loïc Grenié wrote: > > Happened once again. This time I think the culprit was udev (but I > > cannot > > be too sure). Among the updated package nothing should have killed X: > > beyond udev there was a bunch of libreoffice and related (not using > right > > now), zathura (not using), not much more, at the very least, nothing > that > > looked susceptible to trigger a session crash. > > AFAICT udev was upgraded from 247.3-7 to 247.3-7+deb11u1 in > early September, so which distribution are /you/ running? > > Cheers, > David. > % lsb_release -a No LSB modules are available. Distributor ID: Debian Description:Debian GNU/Linux bookworm/sid Release:n/a Codename: bookworm % LANG=C dpkg -l udev Desired=Unknown/Install/Remove/Purge/Hold | Status=Not/Inst/Conf-files/Unpacked/halF-conf/Half-inst/trig-aWait/Trig-pend |/ Err?=(none)/Reinst-required (Status,Err: uppercase=bad) ||/ Name Version Architecture Description +++-==---=== ii udev 252.1-1 amd64/dev/ and hotplug management daemon Cheers, Loïc
Re: Logout at apt upgrade
On Wed 30 Nov 2022 at 14:25:19 (+0100), Loïc Grenié wrote: > Happened once again. This time I think the culprit was udev (but I > cannot > be too sure). Among the updated package nothing should have killed X: > beyond udev there was a bunch of libreoffice and related (not using right > now), zathura (not using), not much more, at the very least, nothing that > looked susceptible to trigger a session crash. AFAICT udev was upgraded from 247.3-7 to 247.3-7+deb11u1 in early September, so which distribution are /you/ running? Cheers, David.
Re: Logout at apt upgrade
On Thu 01 Dec 2022 at 17:45:25 (-0700), Tom Dial wrote:
> On 11/29/22 15:35, Loïc Grenié wrote:
> > Dear Debian users,
> >
> > when I apt upgrade my system, I often (one every three, more
> > or less) find myself brutally logged out of the window system,
> > with systemd services painfully restarting (or failing to restart).
> > The only way I can recover is usually to reboot. I've tried to
> > manually stop, kill the leftover processes and restart the services,
> > one after the other, but it's very long and does not always work.
> > I have observed this situation for a few years (maybe two or three,
> > maybe more, I'm slow to bore).
> >
> > Am I the only one? Is there a way to upgrade the system without
> > rebooting as it used to be a few years ago? I remember updating
> > libc.so without rebooting -- only the kernel needed reboot, and
> > the window system, if specific files changed.
> >
>
> This behavior happens. I don't recall having seen explicit warnings, but the
> upgrade section in the release notes for several recent releases alludes to
> ssh restarts interrupting the operator connection to the upgrade processes.
There are good reasons for this warning in the Release Notes.
For example, stretch ceased to support some old ssh protocols,
and IIRC jessie was the first to outlaw remote root login by
password, so it makes sense to check that you're not relying
on those facilities, and in any case after upgrading ssh, to
always check that you can make a new connection /before/
logging out of the old connection that you upgraded via.
But these considerations are for major release upgrades,
not even point-releases, whereas the OP wrote "one every
three" or thereabouts, so they must have been routine ones.
> I've experienced this and observed that the upgrade process continues,
> although disconnected from the operator. As you noted, update to udev (or any
> package that requires udev restart may trigger this, and the same is true of
> gdm (to my knowledge) and possibly other window managers.
Well Gnome was blamed in the first reply of this thread.
As for udev, I think my buster installations were upgraded
six times, from 241-5 to 241-7~deb10u{3,4,5,6,7,8}, with
no ill effects. Perhaps DMs or DEs add problematical udev
rules that I've never caught sight of.
> Doing upgrades using a terminal in a desktop environment carries a risk,
> although I never have seen damage from this. At worst, I had to run "dpkg
> --configure --pending" and reissue the upgrade command.
>
> The simplest way to avoid this is to run the update or upgrade from one of
> the console terminals available by pressing , (one or more
> of these is used by X, but any one that has a login prompt will do. A
> slightly better, but inconvenient, alternative is to use a serial console,
> which requires extra equipment and upfront configuration. It usually is not
> necessary.
I'd agree with the first, but the second sounds rather OTT unless
you're upgrading a headless box.
Cheers,
David.
Re: Logout at apt upgrade
Loïc Grenié wrote: Dear Debian users, when I apt upgrade my system, I often (one every three, more or less) find myself brutally logged out of the window system, with systemd services painfully restarting (or failing to restart). The only way I can recover is usually to reboot. I've tried to manually stop, kill the leftover processes and restart the services, one after the other, but it's very long and does not always work. I have observed this situation for a few years (maybe two or three, maybe more, I'm slow to bore). Am I the only one? Is there a way to upgrade the system without rebooting as it used to be a few years ago? I remember updating libc.so without rebooting -- only the kernel needed reboot, and the window system, if specific files changed. Thanks, best, Loïc Have you tried the "needrestart" package? It runs after any updates and will tell you what needs restarting and will by default defer any restart that would cut off the branch you're standing on. If it wants to restart logind or tells me that the DE is using old libraries I'll log out and run it again from a VT.
Re: Logout at apt upgrade
On 11/29/22 15:35, Loïc Grenié wrote: Dear Debian users, when I apt upgrade my system, I often (one every three, more or less) find myself brutally logged out of the window system, with systemd services painfully restarting (or failing to restart). The only way I can recover is usually to reboot. I've tried to manually stop, kill the leftover processes and restart the services, one after the other, but it's very long and does not always work. I have observed this situation for a few years (maybe two or three, maybe more, I'm slow to bore). Am I the only one? Is there a way to upgrade the system without rebooting as it used to be a few years ago? I remember updating libc.so without rebooting -- only the kernel needed reboot, and the window system, if specific files changed. This behavior happens. I don't recall having seen explicit warnings, but the upgrade section in the release notes for several recent releases alludes to ssh restarts interrupting the operator connection to the upgrade processes. I've experienced this and observed that the upgrade process continues, although disconnected from the operator. As you noted, update to udev (or any package that requires udev restart may trigger this, and the same is true of gdm (to my knowledge) and possibly other window managers. Doing upgrades using a terminal in a desktop environment carries a risk, although I never have seen damage from this. At worst, I had to run "dpkg --configure --pending" and reissue the upgrade command. The simplest way to avoid this is to run the update or upgrade from one of the console terminals available by pressing , (one or more of these is used by X, but any one that has a login prompt will do. A slightly better, but inconvenient, alternative is to use a serial console, which requires extra equipment and upfront configuration. It usually is not necessary. Regards, Tom Dial Thanks, best, Loïc
Re: Logout at apt upgrade
On Thu, Dec 01, 2022 at 12:34:35AM -0500, Stefan Monnier wrote: > >> The one application I do avoid upgrading while it's running is > >> Firefox, but that's mainly because it occasionally gives a new > >> startup screen after an upgrade, and I want to read what it says. > > > > I take the risk and watch the thing going down in flames. I > > admit that it gives me a strange feeling of satisfaction (I > > might be a bit perverse, dunno). > > Last time this happened to me, Firefox insisted on restarting in the > middle of a sequence of questions where I had already spent a fair bit > of time filling things, so I was *really* annoyed but against all odds > Firefox managed to restore the *full* state, including the content of > the not-yet-submitted text boxes. They got better at this, yes. They better do, because they are by far the biggest resource hog in my machine, By a margin. Cheeers -- t signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Logout at apt upgrade
>> The one application I do avoid upgrading while it's running is >> Firefox, but that's mainly because it occasionally gives a new >> startup screen after an upgrade, and I want to read what it says. > > I take the risk and watch the thing going down in flames. I > admit that it gives me a strange feeling of satisfaction (I > might be a bit perverse, dunno). Last time this happened to me, Firefox insisted on restarting in the middle of a sequence of questions where I had already spent a fair bit of time filling things, so I was *really* annoyed but against all odds Firefox managed to restore the *full* state, including the content of the not-yet-submitted text boxes. Stefan
Re: Logout at apt upgrade
On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 02:36:57PM -0600, David Wright wrote: [...] > The only reasons I'd close down X are (a) a dist-upgrade from > oldstable to stable (and the like), That I do, too. > and (b) dpkg-reconfigure > console-setup and keyboard-configuration after I've been > tinkering with /etc/console-setup/remap.inc (which is > currently two years old). The latter may now be cargo-cult, but > I think it was advised in the past. I can't say much about that. > Like you, I admit to being an fvwm user (since 1996; never used > anything else). I actually had a panoramic round trip: twm, a bit of olwm (what can you do with 4 megabytes of RAM?), fvwm, several strange things in between, Gnome DE (with Metacity), then XFCE, then a couple of tiling WMs. So I *do* know for sure that fvwm is made for me :-) > The one application I do avoid upgrading while it's running is > Firefox, but that's mainly because it occasionally gives a new > startup screen after an upgrade, and I want to read what it says. I take the risk and watch the thing going down in flames. I admit that it gives me a strange feeling of satisfaction (I might be a bit perverse, dunno). > > Oh, something I forgot: besides no DM, my init system is still > > SysV. This might or might not contribute to stability through > > simplicity. > > No stability problems here with systemd. Nor with udev (apparently > from the same stable, sorry for the pun) [...] Udev I do have: a laptop with Linux and no udev is most probably no fun, I think. > And not forgetting the robustness of ext4, that allegedly > "unfashionable" filesystem. My most frequent cause of "crashes", > by far, is powercuts. Yay for ext4 :-) Cheeers -- t signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Logout at apt upgrade
On Wed 30 Nov 2022 at 08:42:41 (+0100), to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 12:36:43AM -0500, Felix Miata wrote: > > > I learned many many moons ago to not trust any update/upgrade process to not > > interfere with a running X session. I usually close apps I don't want data > > lost > > from before beginning an upgrade process. That usually means I log all the > > way out > > of X entirely, then start the upgrade from a vtty. The only reasons I'd close down X are (a) a dist-upgrade from oldstable to stable (and the like), and (b) dpkg-reconfigure console-setup and keyboard-configuration after I've been tinkering with /etc/console-setup/remap.inc (which is currently two years old). The latter may now be cargo-cult, but I think it was advised in the past. Like you, I admit to being an fvwm user (since 1996; never used anything else). The one application I do avoid upgrading while it's running is Firefox, but that's mainly because it occasionally gives a new startup screen after an upgrade, and I want to read what it says. > > What I have noticed in Debian that I do not at all like, is when I boot to > > multi-user.target for the specific purpose of apt or apt-get upgrading, > > even when > > systemctl get-default returns multi-user.target, that if the DM is > > upgraded, X > > gets started shortly following. :( This is above my paygrade (and I don't run a DM), but could this follow from Debian's policy (occasionally complained about), that installing a daemon will start it immediately at the end of the process of installation? > Oh, something I forgot: besides no DM, my init system is still > SysV. This might or might not contribute to stability through > simplicity. No stability problems here with systemd. Nor with udev (apparently from the same stable, sorry for the pun), which someone mentioned this morning. In my experience, the only time udev might have been blamed was during the lenny/squeeze transition, where mixing lenny kernels with squeeze's udev was specifically warned against in the Release Notes (which too many don't seem to read). That transition looks about the time that udev hitched its wagon to systemd (first mention of systemd in its changelog, default rules moved from /etc into /lib), but it could have been coincidental. > My important apps (Emacs, then Emacs, then dunno ;-) don't lose > data "just because the system goes down", so I'm pretty relaxed. And not forgetting the robustness of ext4, that allegedly "unfashionable" filesystem. My most frequent cause of "crashes", by far, is powercuts. > Still, it never happened to me, and I dist-upgrade roughly once > a week. Same here, but running stable, so I normally only have to "dist-" when the kernel is upgraded. Otherwise I upgrade within a few hours of packages hitting the mirrors. Cheers, David.
Re: Logout at apt upgrade
On 11/30/22, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 12:36:43AM -0500, Felix Miata wrote: > > [...] > >> What I have noticed in Debian that I do not at all like, is when I boot >> to >> multi-user.target for the specific purpose of apt or apt-get upgrading, >> even when >> systemctl get-default returns multi-user.target, that if the DM is >> upgraded, X >> gets started shortly following. :( > > Oh, something I forgot: besides no DM, my init system is still > SysV. This might or might not contribute to stability through > simplicity. I'm on SystemD and bounce between XFCE4 and LXQt. Mine has never done anything like this in many years of playing with anything Linux. At this second, I have bits of GNOME installed for themes. In the past, I've had more than that, but I must have moved away from those packages. A quick "apt-mark showinstall" says pinentry-gnome3 is the only GNOME3 named package currently installed. > My important apps (Emacs, then Emacs, then dunno ;-) don't lose > data "just because the system goes down", so I'm pretty relaxed. Once in a very rare while, upgrade will stall until I say yes or no when it asks if I want to restart exim and a second program that I can't remember. > Still, it never happened to me, and I dist-upgrade roughly once > a week. I run "apt-get upgrade". It will take me a few days to remember to do so, but I'll try both "apt upgrade" and dist-upgrade. Dist-upgrade was already a to-do item. Will be my first use of that one so who knows what else might possibly go wrong... or not. Wondering out loud as I exit Stage Right: Is there any kind of trace/strace or whatever that fancy deal is to see if that outputs anything? Cindy :) -- Talking Rock, Pickens County, Georgia, USA * runs with birdseed *
Re: Logout at apt upgrade
Happened once again. This time I think the culprit was udev (but I cannot be too sure). Among the updated package nothing should have killed X: beyond udev there was a bunch of libreoffice and related (not using right now), zathura (not using), not much more, at the very least, nothing that looked susceptible to trigger a session crash. Loïc
Re: Logout at apt upgrade
On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 06:16:04AM +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > FWIW it never happened to me. But: I'm on a pretty minimal system by > today's standards (X, Fvwm). The only application behaving strangely > after a dist-upgrade is... the browser, Firefix: "Ohmigod, something > funny happened, I'll have to close this tab, I'm sooo sorry". Whenever I do an "apt-get upgrade" and see a browser update incoming, I close that browser before the download finishes, to avoid that situation. As as matter of fact, that's happening this morning, as there's a new google-chrome-stable package today. There hasn't been an fvwm update since 2018 according to the Debian changelog, so that's just not an issue at the moment. If there's an update to X, I let it apply while my X session is still running, and then think about whether I want to restart the X session afterward, or just wait for some other package update that requires a reboot, and let it happen then.
Re: Logout at apt upgrade
On 11/30/22, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 12:44:49AM +0100, DdB wrote: >> Am 29.11.2022 um 23:35 schrieb Loïc Grenié: >> > when I apt upgrade my system, I often (one every three, more >> > or less) find myself brutally logged out of the window system, >> > with systemd services painfully restarting (or failing to restart). >> > The only way I can recover is usually to reboot. >> >> Yes, i see similar problem, amd AFAICT it is somewhat related to my use >> of GNOME3. They insist on restarting the system for almost all package >> updates, but sometimes, i refuse to and keep the machine running without >> updating it. I am aware, this could cause troubles on the security-side. >> That is why i am keeping a long list of system-backups. > > FWIW it never happened to me. But: I'm on a pretty minimal system by > today's standards (X, Fvwm). The only application behaving strangely > after a dist-upgrade is... the browser, Firefix: "Ohmigod, something > funny happened, I'll have to close this tab, I'm sooo sorry". > > So it seems to be related to Gnome's love for complexity, yes (any > KDE/XFCE users out there?) XFCE user here - it's never happened to me. Then again, I use the synaptic package manager instead of apt upgrade so that might have something to do with it. And the needrestart package plays very nicely with the synaptic package manager - after updating software I get a popup offering to restart processes whose files were just updated Regards, Lee
Re: Logout at apt upgrade
Jeffrey Walton writes: > KDE works as expected. Yep. > God bless those who have stuck with GNOME after the change to GNOME3. > They have the tolerance of saints. I have to agree. I did get Gnome 3 to somewhere I kinda liked but when an updated wiped my customizations, it was time to say good bye to Gnome and upgrade to KDE.
Re: Logout at apt upgrade
Thanks Tomas, and thanks to all those responded, On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 06:16, Tomas wrote: > On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 12:44:49AM +0100, DdB wrote: > > Am 29.11.2022 um 23:35 schrieb Loïc Grenié: > > > when I apt upgrade my system, I often (one every three, more > > > or less) find myself brutally logged out of the window system, > > > with systemd services painfully restarting (or failing to restart). > > > The only way I can recover is usually to reboot. > > > > Yes, i see similar problem, amd AFAICT it is somewhat related to my use > > of GNOME3. They insist on restarting the system for almost all package > > updates, but sometimes, i refuse to and keep the machine running without > > updating it. I am aware, this could cause troubles on the security-side. > > That is why i am keeping a long list of system-backups. > > FWIW it never happened to me. But: I'm on a pretty minimal system by > today's standards (X, Fvwm). The only application behaving strangely > after a dist-upgrade is... the browser, Firefix: "Ohmigod, something > funny happened, I'll have to close this tab, I'm sooo sorry". > I'm using icebox with a dm. As far as I can tell this is not related to dm upgrade, nor to icebox upgrade. I agree that firefox used to say "something funny happened", but unfortunately it's just killed as everything else each time (and, then, I have to reboot). Fortunately, the programs I use do save their data regularly, so that I don't lose anything more than time in the process. Loïc
Re: Logout at apt upgrade
On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 12:36:43AM -0500, Felix Miata wrote: [...] > What I have noticed in Debian that I do not at all like, is when I boot to > multi-user.target for the specific purpose of apt or apt-get upgrading, even > when > systemctl get-default returns multi-user.target, that if the DM is upgraded, X > gets started shortly following. :( Oh, something I forgot: besides no DM, my init system is still SysV. This might or might not contribute to stability through simplicity. My important apps (Emacs, then Emacs, then dunno ;-) don't lose data "just because the system goes down", so I'm pretty relaxed. Still, it never happened to me, and I dist-upgrade roughly once a week. Cheers -- t signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Logout at apt upgrade
Loïc Grenié composed on 2022-11-29 23:35 (UTC+0100): > when I apt upgrade my system, I often (one every three, more > or less) find myself brutally logged out of the window system, > with systemd services painfully restarting (or failing to restart). > The only way I can recover is usually to reboot. I've tried to > manually stop, kill the leftover processes and restart the services, > one after the other, but it's very long and does not always work. > I have observed this situation for a few years (maybe two or three, > maybe more, I'm slow to bore). > Am I the only one? Is there a way to upgrade the system without > rebooting as it used to be a few years ago? I remember updating > libc.so without rebooting -- only the kernel needed reboot, and > the window system, if specific files changed. I learned many many moons ago to not trust any update/upgrade process to not interfere with a running X session. I usually close apps I don't want data lost from before beginning an upgrade process. That usually means I log all the way out of X entirely, then start the upgrade from a vtty. What I have noticed in Debian that I do not at all like, is when I boot to multi-user.target for the specific purpose of apt or apt-get upgrading, even when systemctl get-default returns multi-user.target, that if the DM is upgraded, X gets started shortly following. :( -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata
Re: Logout at apt upgrade
On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 12:16 AM wrote: > > On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 12:44:49AM +0100, DdB wrote: > > Am 29.11.2022 um 23:35 schrieb Loïc Grenié: > > > when I apt upgrade my system, I often (one every three, more > > > or less) find myself brutally logged out of the window system, > > > with systemd services painfully restarting (or failing to restart). > > > The only way I can recover is usually to reboot. > > > > Yes, i see similar problem, amd AFAICT it is somewhat related to my use > > of GNOME3. They insist on restarting the system for almost all package > > updates, but sometimes, i refuse to and keep the machine running without > > updating it. I am aware, this could cause troubles on the security-side. > > That is why i am keeping a long list of system-backups. > > FWIW it never happened to me. But: I'm on a pretty minimal system by > today's standards (X, Fvwm). The only application behaving strangely > after a dist-upgrade is... the browser, Firefix: "Ohmigod, something > funny happened, I'll have to close this tab, I'm sooo sorry". > > So it seems to be related to Gnome's love for complexity, yes (any > KDE/XFCE users out there?) KDE works as expected. God bless those who have stuck with GNOME after the change to GNOME3. They have the tolerance of saints. Jeff
Re: Logout at apt upgrade
On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 12:44:49AM +0100, DdB wrote: > Am 29.11.2022 um 23:35 schrieb Loïc Grenié: > > when I apt upgrade my system, I often (one every three, more > > or less) find myself brutally logged out of the window system, > > with systemd services painfully restarting (or failing to restart). > > The only way I can recover is usually to reboot. > > Yes, i see similar problem, amd AFAICT it is somewhat related to my use > of GNOME3. They insist on restarting the system for almost all package > updates, but sometimes, i refuse to and keep the machine running without > updating it. I am aware, this could cause troubles on the security-side. > That is why i am keeping a long list of system-backups. FWIW it never happened to me. But: I'm on a pretty minimal system by today's standards (X, Fvwm). The only application behaving strangely after a dist-upgrade is... the browser, Firefix: "Ohmigod, something funny happened, I'll have to close this tab, I'm sooo sorry". So it seems to be related to Gnome's love for complexity, yes (any KDE/XFCE users out there?) Cheers -- t signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Logout at apt upgrade
Am 29.11.2022 um 23:35 schrieb Loïc Grenié: > when I apt upgrade my system, I often (one every three, more > or less) find myself brutally logged out of the window system, > with systemd services painfully restarting (or failing to restart). > The only way I can recover is usually to reboot. Yes, i see similar problem, amd AFAICT it is somewhat related to my use of GNOME3. They insist on restarting the system for almost all package updates, but sometimes, i refuse to and keep the machine running without updating it. I am aware, this could cause troubles on the security-side. That is why i am keeping a long list of system-backups. But whenever i get logged out by the system (funnily, usually there are applications running fine on other desktops), i could never sort out the cause and had to reboot. But i do not complain, since i am still on oldstable and thus not in touch with the most recent and best of debian.
