Re: [RESOLVED] -- Re: Problems with clean install of fvwm

[Curt]

On 2018-02-24, Richard Owlett  wrote:
>
> I had used netinst to do a base command line only install followed by 
> doing "apt-get install fvwm".
>
> Didn't work. It needed "apt-get install xorg lightdm".

It worked perfectly.

-- 
“Be yourself; everyone else is already taken.”
-Oscar Wilde

[RESOLVED] -- Re: Problems with clean install of fvwm

[Richard Owlett]

On 02/23/2018 05:46 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:

History
I run MATE, but to paraphrase a restaurant - "I want Debian MyWay" ;)
It was suggested that I wanted what KDE calls "activities".
It looked promising. I installed it. It suffers from featuritis.
fvwm-crystal was also suggested. When installed it was in some sense 
"cleaner" but still too busy. Launched fvwm which had been installed by 
the fvwm-crystal package.


The problem
It had "inherited" configuration items from fvwm-crystal. The web pages 
I had read spoke of a default 1st run display. I could not figure out 
how to get that to appear.


Having adequate space available I used netinst to do a base command line 
only install to a new partition. It was followed by doing "apt-get 
install fvwm".


I rebooted expecting a minimal fvwm display. I got a command line.
I found that though a "/home/richard/.fvwm" directory had been created, 
it was empty. I couldn't find copies of what files should have been 
there on initial first run. Only instructions/examples for adding this 
or that doodad.


Help please.
TIA


Found the underlying problem.
The design team measures success in terms of "elegance" and "completeness".
There is a sub-class of "retail customers" {so to speak} who want it to 
"just work *as expected*" ;}


This example of that sub-class is by philosophy a "minimalist" and by 
circumstances "resource constrained". I have a single laptop {no 
need/desire/justification for LAN} who would not suffer if circumstances 
moved him back to using 56k dial-up.


I had used netinst to do a base command line only install followed by 
doing "apt-get install fvwm".


Didn't work. It needed "apt-get install xorg lightdm".

I've been gnawing on aspects of the problem since Squeeze.
The best idea I've come up with is having a tool that can author a 
custom preseed.cfg file. One of the goals being not to touch or affect 
the internals of the Debian installer.


Has anyone tried something similar?
An _owl_ now _ducks_ for cover :}

Re: Problems with clean install of fvwm

[tomas]

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On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 09:57:12AM -0600, Richard Owlett wrote:

[...]

> I just did "apt-get install xorg".
> Now typing "startx" at command line does give me a fvwm screen.

So fvwm is running already (more below)

> However typing "fvwm" at command line gives
> >[fvwm][main] <> can't open display

You are trying to start it off a console not "in" X? This won't
work -- fvwm needs (as every X application) to know which X server
to talk to. This is usually done via the DISPLAY environment
variable. So to start fvwm you would have either to start it
from "whithin" the X session (e.g. from an XTerm running in
there, or more typically from an X session init script) or
you'd have to provide the "display" address yourself.

The canonical way of doing that is that X invokes a session
init script (in your trusty debian somewhere /etc/X11/Xsession,
which collects bits and pieces in /etc/X11/Xsession.d -- therein
50x11-common_determine-startup should be doing the window manager
magic for you. So that's probably why X "does give me a fvwm
screen" above, if I got you correctly.

> What's still to be installed/configured?
> Would this be a bug against the fvwm package for not installing and
> configuring xorg?

All should be well (or I misunderstood you)

Cheers
- -- t
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Re: Problems with clean install of fvwm

[Brian]

On Fri 23 Feb 2018 at 09:57:12 -0600, Richard Owlett wrote:

> I just did "apt-get install xorg".
> Now typing "startx" at command line does give me a fvwm screen.

Fine. Now use the mouse (click) to get a menu.

> However typing "fvwm" at command line gives
> > [fvwm][main] <> can't open display

Do you mean you typed 'fvwm' instead of 'startx'? If you did - stop
doing it.

> What's still to be installed/configured?

Nothing.
> Would this be a bug against the fvwm package for not installing and
> configuring xorg?

No.

-- 
Brian.

Re: Problems with clean install of fvwm

[John Hasler]

David Wright writes:
> It doesn't mean that if you install a package designed to run on X
> that apt will immediately install all the packages required for a
> functional X system.

Fvwm does not depend on an X server because it might be running on a
headless machine while an X server is running on the machine the user is
sitting in front of.  The X Window System is a *network* system.  Every
window on your screen could be coming from a different remote computer.
So could the window manager, which is just another process to the X
server.

Install the xorg package.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Problems with clean install of fvwm

[Brian]

On Fri 23 Feb 2018 at 16:56:19 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

> On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 09:12:04AM -0600, Richard Owlett wrote:
> 
> 
> > To clarify I got a console command line (Whole screen is one window
> > with no graphical ornaments !)
> 
> Aha. As someone already said in this thread, it seems you have no
> X installed. Package xserver-xorg, I'd guess...

'apt install xorg' is better for most users (which includes the OP).
 
> > I tried issuing "startx" itself and received "command not found".
 
> Hm. This one is in package xinit, which is not a necessary part
> of X. So not a bad omen in itself.

xorg depends on xinit.

> > When I had initially done "apt-get install fvwm", should some
> > portion of the Xsystem been installed?
> 
> Yes, I'd venture your X server is missing.

To answer the question as posed - no.

An xserver is a display device. It runs on the machine the user is
sat in front of. The program to be displayed (fvwm in this case) can
be located on any machine on the network, like the supercomputer a
few thousand miles away. The speed of display will be limited by the
network connection. Over dial-up, fvwm and xorg may as well be on the
same machine.

So, you are correct and helpful - but didn't (as you usually do) answer
the question. ;)

-- 
Brian.

Re: Problems with clean install of fvwm

[David Wright]

On Fri 23 Feb 2018 at 10:23:53 (-0600), David Wright wrote:
> 
> #!/bin/sh
> exec /usr/bin/fvwm >| $HOME/.fvwm-stdout 2>| $HOME/.fvwm-stderr &
> WMPID=$!

This line got wrapped; sorry.

> xterm …
> xterm …
> swisswatch -title local -noshape
> xconsole -name console -file /dev/xconsole -exitOnFail
> xclock -strftime "%a %d"
> # and so on
> # wait for the window manager in the background to die
> wait $WMPID

A clean copy:

#!/bin/sh
exec /usr/bin/fvwm >| $HOME/.fvwm-stdout 2>| $HOME/.fvwm-stderr & WMPID=$!
xterm …
xterm …
swisswatch -title local -noshape
xconsole -name console -file /dev/xconsole -exitOnFail
xclock -strftime "%a %d"
# and so on
# wait for the window manager in the background to die
wait $WMPID

Cheers,
David.

Re: Problems with clean install of fvwm

[David Wright]

On Fri 23 Feb 2018 at 09:57:12 (-0600), Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 02/23/2018 09:12 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:
> >On 02/23/2018 05:46 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:
> >>History
> >>I run MATE, but to paraphrase a restaurant - "I want Debian MyWay" ;)
> >>It was suggested that I wanted what KDE calls "activities".
> >>It looked promising. I installed it. It suffers from featuritis.
> >>fvwm-crystal was also suggested. When installed it was in some
> >>sense "cleaner" but still too busy. Launched fvwm which had been
> >>installed by the fvwm-crystal package.
> >>
> >>The problem
> >>It had "inherited" configuration items from fvwm-crystal. The
> >>web pages I had read spoke of a default 1st run display. I could
> >>not figure out how to get that to appear.
> >>
> >>Having adequate space available I used netinst to do a base
> >>command line only install to a new partition. It was followed by
> >>doing "apt-get install fvwm".
> >>
> >>I rebooted expecting a minimal fvwm display. I got a command line.
> >
> >To clarify I got a console command line (Whole screen is one
> >window with no graphical ornaments !)
> >
> >>I found that though a "/home/richard/.fvwm" directory had been
> >>created, it was empty. I couldn't find copies of what files
> >>should have been there on initial first run. Only
> >>instructions/examples for adding this or that doodad.
> >>
> >
> >It was suggested that
> >>So to get you kick-started,
> >>just create a file named "config" in your /home/richard/.fvwm
> >>consisting of this one line:
> >>
> >>  Read /usr/share/fvwm/default-config/config
> >That did not solve my problem.
> >
> >I copied the file at
> >http://www.einval.com/~steve/debian/fvwm2rc.example to
> >/home/richard/.fvwm2rc  .
> >I then executed `fvwm2 -f "FvwmM4 .fvwm2rc"'
> >The result was " [fvwm][main] <> can't open display
> >
> >Reasoning by analogy with use of startx I had tried "fvwm" at the
> >command line and received "can't open display".
> >
> >I tried issuing "startx" itself and received "command not found".
> >
> >When I had initially done "apt-get install fvwm", should some
> >portion of the Xsystem been installed?
> >
> >TIA
> 
> I just did "apt-get install xorg".
> Now typing "startx" at command line does give me a fvwm screen.
> However typing "fvwm" at command line gives
> >[fvwm][main] <> can't open display
> 
> What's still to be installed/configured?
> Would this be a bug against the fvwm package for not installing and
> configuring xorg?

>From https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2018/02/msg00794.html

As mentioned in another thread just now, I run X with startx.
I've always stuck to the Debian Way™ which means using ~/.xsession
rather than ~/.xinitrc.

Stripped down to the essentials, my ~/.xsession consists of:

#!/bin/sh
exec /usr/bin/fvwm >| $HOME/.fvwm-stdout 2>| $HOME/.fvwm-stderr &
WMPID=$!
xterm …
xterm …
swisswatch -title local -noshape
xconsole -name console -file /dev/xconsole -exitOnFail
xclock -strftime "%a %d"
# and so on
# wait for the window manager in the background to die
wait $WMPID

IOW you run it in your ~/.xsession as X starts up, not from
the command line.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Problems with clean install of fvwm

[David Wright]

On Fri 23 Feb 2018 at 09:12:04 (-0600), Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 02/23/2018 05:46 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:
> >History
> >I run MATE, but to paraphrase a restaurant - "I want Debian MyWay" ;)
> >It was suggested that I wanted what KDE calls "activities".
> >It looked promising. I installed it. It suffers from featuritis.
> >fvwm-crystal was also suggested. When installed it was in some
> >sense "cleaner" but still too busy. Launched fvwm which had been
> >installed by the fvwm-crystal package.
> >
> >The problem
> >It had "inherited" configuration items from fvwm-crystal. The web
> >pages I had read spoke of a default 1st run display. I could not
> >figure out how to get that to appear.
> >
> >Having adequate space available I used netinst to do a base
> >command line only install to a new partition. It was followed by
> >doing "apt-get install fvwm".
> >
> >I rebooted expecting a minimal fvwm display. I got a command line.
> 
> To clarify I got a console command line (Whole screen is one window
> with no graphical ornaments !)
> 
> >I found that though a "/home/richard/.fvwm" directory had been
> >created, it was empty. I couldn't find copies of what files should
> >have been there on initial first run. Only instructions/examples
> >for adding this or that doodad.
> >
> 
> It was suggested that
> >So to get you kick-started,
> >just create a file named "config" in your /home/richard/.fvwm
> >consisting of this one line:
> >
> >  Read /usr/share/fvwm/default-config/config
> That did not solve my problem.
> 
> I copied the file at
> http://www.einval.com/~steve/debian/fvwm2rc.example to
> /home/richard/.fvwm2rc  .
> I then executed `fvwm2 -f "FvwmM4 .fvwm2rc"'
> The result was " [fvwm][main] <> can't open display
> 
> Reasoning by analogy with use of startx I had tried "fvwm" at the
> command line and received "can't open display".
> 
> I tried issuing "startx" itself and received "command not found".
> 
> When I had initially done "apt-get install fvwm", should some
> portion of the Xsystem been installed?

It sounds to me as if you're misinterpreting the concept of Debian's
dependencies. The idea is that when you install package A (which
needs library B) and run it, the call to library B doesn't point
into outer space but into an installed library.

It doesn't mean that if you install a package designed to run on
X that apt will immediately install all the packages required for
a functional X system.

So what fvwm does is to run, look around, then say "I don't see
anything upon which I could usefully perform, so it gives up
in good order after saying why.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Problems with clean install of fvwm

[Richard Owlett]

On 02/23/2018 09:12 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:

On 02/23/2018 05:46 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:

History
I run MATE, but to paraphrase a restaurant - "I want Debian MyWay" ;)
It was suggested that I wanted what KDE calls "activities".
It looked promising. I installed it. It suffers from featuritis.
fvwm-crystal was also suggested. When installed it was in some sense 
"cleaner" but still too busy. Launched fvwm which had been installed 
by the fvwm-crystal package.


The problem
It had "inherited" configuration items from fvwm-crystal. The web 
pages I had read spoke of a default 1st run display. I could not 
figure out how to get that to appear.


Having adequate space available I used netinst to do a base command 
line only install to a new partition. It was followed by doing 
"apt-get install fvwm".


I rebooted expecting a minimal fvwm display. I got a command line.


To clarify I got a console command line (Whole screen is one window with 
no graphical ornaments !)


I found that though a "/home/richard/.fvwm" directory had been 
created, it was empty. I couldn't find copies of what files should 
have been there on initial first run. Only instructions/examples for 
adding this or that doodad.




It was suggested that

So to get you kick-started,
just create a file named "config" in your /home/richard/.fvwm
consisting of this one line:

  Read /usr/share/fvwm/default-config/config

That did not solve my problem.

I copied the file at http://www.einval.com/~steve/debian/fvwm2rc.example 
to /home/richard/.fvwm2rc  .

I then executed `fvwm2 -f "FvwmM4 .fvwm2rc"'
The result was " [fvwm][main] <> can't open display

Reasoning by analogy with use of startx I had tried "fvwm" at the 
command line and received "can't open display".


I tried issuing "startx" itself and received "command not found".

When I had initially done "apt-get install fvwm", should some portion of 
the Xsystem been installed?


TIA


I just did "apt-get install xorg".
Now typing "startx" at command line does give me a fvwm screen.
However typing "fvwm" at command line gives

[fvwm][main] <> can't open display


What's still to be installed/configured?
Would this be a bug against the fvwm package for not installing and 
configuring xorg?

Re: Problems with clean install of fvwm

[tomas]

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On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 09:12:04AM -0600, Richard Owlett wrote:

[...]

> To clarify I got a console command line (Whole screen is one window
> with no graphical ornaments !)

Aha. As someone already said in this thread, it seems you have no
X installed. Package xserver-xorg, I'd guess...

> I tried issuing "startx" itself and received "command not found".

Hm. This one is in package xinit, which is not a necessary part
of X. So not a bad omen in itself.

> When I had initially done "apt-get install fvwm", should some
> portion of the Xsystem been installed?

Yes, I'd venture your X server is missing.

Cheers
- -- t
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Re: Problems with clean install of fvwm

[Richard Owlett]

On 02/23/2018 05:46 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:

History
I run MATE, but to paraphrase a restaurant - "I want Debian MyWay" ;)
It was suggested that I wanted what KDE calls "activities".
It looked promising. I installed it. It suffers from featuritis.
fvwm-crystal was also suggested. When installed it was in some sense 
"cleaner" but still too busy. Launched fvwm which had been installed by 
the fvwm-crystal package.


The problem
It had "inherited" configuration items from fvwm-crystal. The web pages 
I had read spoke of a default 1st run display. I could not figure out 
how to get that to appear.


Having adequate space available I used netinst to do a base command line 
only install to a new partition. It was followed by doing "apt-get 
install fvwm".


I rebooted expecting a minimal fvwm display. I got a command line.


To clarify I got a console command line (Whole screen is one window with 
no graphical ornaments !)


I found that though a "/home/richard/.fvwm" directory had been created, 
it was empty. I couldn't find copies of what files should have been 
there on initial first run. Only instructions/examples for adding this 
or that doodad.




It was suggested that

So to get you kick-started,
just create a file named "config" in your /home/richard/.fvwm
consisting of this one line:

  Read /usr/share/fvwm/default-config/config

That did not solve my problem.

I copied the file at http://www.einval.com/~steve/debian/fvwm2rc.example 
to /home/richard/.fvwm2rc  .

I then executed `fvwm2 -f "FvwmM4 .fvwm2rc"'
The result was " [fvwm][main] <> can't open display

Reasoning by analogy with use of startx I had tried "fvwm" at the 
command line and received "can't open display".


I tried issuing "startx" itself and received "command not found".

When I had initially done "apt-get install fvwm", should some portion of 
the Xsystem been installed?


TIA

Re: Problems with clean install of fvwm

[John Hasler]

Richard Owlett writes:
> I rebooted expecting a minimal fvwm display. I got a command line.  I
> found that though a "/home/richard/.fvwm" directory had been created,
> it was empty. I couldn't find copies of what files should have been
> there on initial first run. Only instructions/examples for adding this
> or that doodad.

You should get an empty display.  Clicking it should get you a menu.
One of the choices should be some sort of configuration widget.  I've
never used it: like most fvwm users I have a highly idiosyncratic config
that has evolved over many years.

You should install all the recommended and and suggested packages.  The
default config others have suggested is a good starting point.

However, the fact that you got a command line is a problem.  Did you
install a display manager?  If not you need to start X manually.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Problems with clean install of fvwm

[tomas]

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On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 08:43:42AM -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 02:21:11PM +0100, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > tracker.debian.org tells me that there is a default configuration file in
> >   
> > https://sources.debian.org/data/main/f/fvwm/1:2.6.7-3/default-config/config
> > which is the download view of
> >   https://sources.debian.org/src/fvwm/1:2.6.7-3/default-config/config/
> > 
> > It looks like a clean starting point for modification and enhancement.
> > I'd put it on disk as: ~/.fvwm2rc
> 
> >From the fvwm(1) man page:
> 
>Here is the complete list of all
>file locations queried in the default installation (only the first
>found file is used):
> 
>$HOME/.fvwm/config
>/usr/local/share/fvwm/config
> 
>$HOME/.fvwm/.fvwm2rc
>$HOME/.fvwm2rc
>/usr/local/share/fvwm/.fvwm2rc
>/usr/local/share/fvwm/system.fvwm2rc
>/etc/system.fvwm2rc

Now, /usr/local isn't a good place for distribution files. For the
Debian-distributed fvwm I'd expect things to be in /usr/share (and
so on). And yes, you'll find things in /usr/share, except that
config is "hidden" in a sub-directory, like so:

  /usr/share/fvwm/default-config/config

(as I noted in my previous post, btw). Probably to avoid interfering
with an already existing local config, I don't know.

Cheers
- -- tomás
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Re: Problems with clean install of fvwm

[Greg Wooledge]

On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 02:21:11PM +0100, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> tracker.debian.org tells me that there is a default configuration file in
>   https://sources.debian.org/data/main/f/fvwm/1:2.6.7-3/default-config/config
> which is the download view of
>   https://sources.debian.org/src/fvwm/1:2.6.7-3/default-config/config/
> 
> It looks like a clean starting point for modification and enhancement.
> I'd put it on disk as: ~/.fvwm2rc

>From the fvwm(1) man page:

   Here is the complete list of all
   file locations queried in the default installation (only the first
   found file is used):

   $HOME/.fvwm/config
   /usr/local/share/fvwm/config

   $HOME/.fvwm/.fvwm2rc
   $HOME/.fvwm2rc
   /usr/local/share/fvwm/.fvwm2rc
   /usr/local/share/fvwm/system.fvwm2rc
   /etc/system.fvwm2rc

   Please note, the last 5 locations are not guaranteed to be supported in
   the future.

Re: Problems with clean install of fvwm

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

tracker.debian.org tells me that there is a default configuration file in
  https://sources.debian.org/data/main/f/fvwm/1:2.6.7-3/default-config/config
which is the download view of
  https://sources.debian.org/src/fvwm/1:2.6.7-3/default-config/config/

It looks like a clean starting point for modification and enhancement.
I'd put it on disk as: ~/.fvwm2rc

Usage instructions 
  # The root menu will PopUp with a click in the root
  # window or using alt-f1 (or menu).

This menu is supposed to offer items like "Programs" and "XTerm".
>From there on it should be possible to edit the configuration and to
then choose "Restart" from the root menu to apply it.

(An early experiment could be to add
+  "I" Module FvwmCommandS
 to StartFunction in order to be able to run shell command FvwmCommand
 for testing single fvwm commands.)


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: Problems with clean install of fvwm

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Richard Owlett wrote:
> fvwm-crystal was also suggested. When installed it was in some sense
> "cleaner" but still too busy. Launched fvwm which had been installed by the
> fvwm-crystal package.

There's not much configuration in the fvwm package of Debian, indeed.

> I rebooted expecting a minimal fvwm display. I got a command line.

A console command line ? (Whole screen is one window with no graphical
ornaments ?)
Iirc, i got an empty screen with no input opportunity but a pull-down
menu by right mouse button, where i could start an xterm.
As stated earlier, i then copied my ~/.fvwm2rc from backup to my newly
installed Debian.


You will have to start with some example configuration and then adapt
it until suits your expectations.
There are many. But there is the problem of trusting such software.

Steve McIntyre's example would be trustworthy
  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2015/08/msg00464.html
  http://www.einval.com/~steve/debian/fvwm2rc.example
because you trust Steve with each and every Debian installation.
I cannot say, though, how easy it will be to adapt.
  # Heavy use of m4 here - needs to be called as `fvwm2 -f "FvwmM4 .fvwm2rc"'

I could also give you mine. With many of its lines i should be able
to tell why i have them and what they do. But some might be surprising
for me too. Not all are necessarily supposed to do something usable.
I have an empty ~/.fvwm directory too. It does not hamper my ~/.fvwm2rc.

Give me a note if i shall send it to you in private. (I will have to
check it for embarrassing personal details first ...)


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: Problems with clean install of fvwm

[tomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 05:46:40AM -0600, Richard Owlett wrote:

> I rebooted expecting a minimal fvwm display. I got a command line.
> I found that though a "/home/richard/.fvwm" directory had been
> created, it was empty. I couldn't find copies of what files should
> have been there on initial first run. Only instructions/examples for
> adding this or that doodad.

The place for fvwm's default system-wide config in Debian seems to
be /usr/share/fvwm/default-config/config. So to get you kick-started,
just create a file named "config" in your /home/richard/.fvwm
consisting of this one line:

  Read /usr/share/fvwm/default-config/config

(leading space just here, for readability). Be warned that fvwm's
config language is... idiosyncratic. But copiously documented in
man pages. There are people out there (yes, I'm one of them) for
whom fvwm is just what the doctor ordered.

Cheers
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