Re: [libreoffice-design] export HTML

2012-11-06 Thread Kohei Yoshida

On 11/04/2012 04:14 PM, Rob Snelders wrote:


But has this still any value?


IMO not anymore.  I'd rather see options such as HTML4, HTML5, or just 
drop these options and simply output the standard HTML4/5.


Kohei

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Document Saved indicator

2012-06-05 Thread Kohei Yoshida

On 06/04/2012 08:54 AM, nick rundy wrote:


But you say it is not reliable to rely on the save icon to show modification 
status? That the status bar is a more accurate indicator of this?


Yes.  For now it's the indicator in the status bar.  And (as I 
understand it) folks here are discussing about moving it to somewhere 
else to places such as the title bar.


Kohei

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Document Saved indicator

2012-06-03 Thread Kohei Yoshida

On 06/03/2012 11:25 AM, Mirek M. wrote:

2012/6/3 Jean-Francois Nifeneckerjean-francois.nifenec...@laposte.net


Le 31/05/2012 21:29, Kohei Yoshida a écrit :



There is another reason for that.  Document not only store its content
but also view properties, but a change in the view properties doesn't
trigger a document modified status.  Here, view properties include
things like (in case of spreadsheet) active sheet, cursor position, zoom
level etc.

But quite often you want to store the view properties after they've
changed, and always enabling the save action allows this.  Disabling the
save action when the document content is unchanged even though the view
has changed is IMO quite unfriendly in this regard.

Also, it's IMO wrong to trigger a document modified status on view
change.



I beg to differ.

A document is either changed and needs saving or is not and... doesn't.
Conversely, if changing a property needs saving, then the document *is*
changed.



+1


It's not a matter of opinion, but of technicality.  Any software that 
deals with complex documents is designed this way, and that's not going 
to change it.


Not to mention changing this principle would basically means that you 
are writing a new app from scratch, since everything else is built on 
this principle in our code base.  I for one am not interested in such 
effort.


That's all I have to say.  If people still don't see my point after 
this, then I suggest we agree to disagree, and avoid further wasting 
time on this topic.


Peace,

Kohei

Kohei



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Re: [libreoffice-design] Document Saved indicator

2012-06-03 Thread Kohei Yoshida

On 06/03/2012 12:11 PM, Stefan Knorr (Astron) wrote:

Hi all,

@Christoph:

Well, that was the case some versions ago - then the current behavior
(save icon is always active) has been introduced. Reason: There has been
customer feedback targeted at the Sun OOo UX Team that people wish to
press that button at any time - just to be sure that the document is
really saved. So here its not about real logic, but about people to feel
safe.


If that was the case, then it would have been a better idea to focus
on the following things:
* get document backup/restoration reliable enough for everyone
(something like backup-as-you-type maybe)


So, I agree with the idea itself.  But for this to work comfortably the 
save operation must be fast enough (since backup just means saving the 
current document somewhere on disk), and that's the hard part.  Actually 
calling this hard itself is a massive understatement, but I won't go 
into the details.


Having said that, making the load/save operation faster is always our 
priority.  It just takes a long time to achieve it (i.e. in units of years).



* make sure, Ooo doesn't crash (and if it crashes, that it doesn't
take all opened documents with it – for instance, similar to how
Chrome separates tabs)


So, the technical description of this is to put each application in a 
separate process, which Chrome does.  This is one of the things I've 
been very much interested in personally, but comes with a steep 
technical hurdle as well.


That said, someday I'd like us to give this a try, perhaps when all this 
effort to clean up the code base etc. settles down a bit.  This would 
also solve many others issues that we currently have in our code base, 
not just the issue of crashes.  So, to me, this is a goal worth chasing.


Kohei

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Document Saved indicator

2012-05-31 Thread Kohei Yoshida
Hi there,

Let me chime in since I'm the one who put that setting there.

On Thu, 2012-05-31 at 21:04 +0200, Christoph Noack wrote:
 Hi Mirek, all!
 
 Am Donnerstag, den 31.05.2012, 20:29 +0200 schrieb Mirek M.:
  2012/5/31 Christoph Noack christ...@dogmatux.com
   Am Mittwoch, den 30.05.2012, 16:42 +0200 schrieb Alexander Wilms:
actually, the save icon in the top toolbar should be enough, don't you
think? It's greyed out if there's nothing to save and makes the
indicator superfluous.
  
   Well, that was the case some versions ago - then the current behavior
   (save icon is always active) has been introduced. Reason: There has been
   customer feedback targeted at the Sun OOo UX Team that people wish to
   press that button at any time - just to be sure that the document is
   really saved. So here its not about real logic, but about people to feel
   safe.

There is another reason for that.  Document not only store its content
but also view properties, but a change in the view properties doesn't
trigger a document modified status.  Here, view properties include
things like (in case of spreadsheet) active sheet, cursor position, zoom
level etc.

But quite often you want to store the view properties after they've
changed, and always enabling the save action allows this.  Disabling the
save action when the document content is unchanged even though the view
has changed is IMO quite unfriendly in this regard.

Also, it's IMO wrong to trigger a document modified status on view
change.

  
  This is only a setting, and it's disabled by default (at least on my
  machine).
 
 Ah, didn't know that. Thanks!
 
 Do you know why this is a setting at all? Do we alter the behavior
 dependent on the platform?

This is a setting because of the presence of those users who wish to use
the save icon as an indication of document modified status.  To me
that's a mis-use of the icon but this practice is widespread in some
circles.

It's disabled by default only because we wanted to preserve the old OOo
behavior.  But I have been asked about enabling this by default several
times in the past.

 
  Out of interest, could you point me to the feedback you mentioned?
 
 Nope, sorry. It was directly targeted at the OOo UX team (maybe even
 part of their usability studies). I had some private conversations where
 they mentioned it (if I remember well enough).

I also had private conversations with folks who asked me about enabling
the save at all times.  In fact, I myself depend on this very
functionality, in order to save the precise state of the view properties
with a document.

   So, finally, if there is a need to further cleanup the status bar, then
   I'd propose to go with (unsaved) instead of the asterisk for the title
   bar. Example for unsaved changes:
   Strategy Document (unsaved) - LibreOffice Writer
  
  Fine with me, as long as it only happens if the allow to save document
  even when the document is not modified setting is on.
 
 Here I don't fully understand your rationale - I'd go for consistency
 similar to the document symbol in the status bar (always there).
 
   Of course there are plenty of alternatives - introducing stuff like a
   proxy icons (similar to Mac OS X), or extending the Save Icon by an
   own indicator. Or ...
 
  To be honest, I feel like this is too much complication to satisfy a very
  small fraction of the userbase, at a cost to the general userbase. Every
  other application I know disables Save when the file is saved, and
  there's not any consumer backlash there.

IMO it's dangerous to assume that only a fraction of the user base
needs this functionality.  Again, I myself depend on this functionality,
and I've got in touch with several other users who needed this as well.
Given that I don't go out interacting with gazillions of users (I only
interact with perhaps a dozen), this is quite significant.

Also, the majority of applications that *I* personally touch always
enable the save icon.  Obviously there are some personal variations with
experiences here.

Kohei

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Document Saved indicator

2012-05-31 Thread Kohei Yoshida
On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 5:13 PM, nick rundy nru...@hotmail.com wrote:

 A grayed out Save Indicator is not superfluous!

 I find this EXTRAORDINARILY useful to know whether I have added new material 
 to a document or whether I'm dealing with the previously saved version. The 
 grayed out Indicator communicates this in a very simple manner. It's perfect.

You can achieve the same thing with the status indicator in the status
bar.  You just have to point your eye to a different spot.

 The grayed out Save Indicator is one of the best features of Writer!

A grayed out icon is no feature other than to convey the fact that the
action associated with that particular icon is disabled.  A save icon
being disabled does NOT equal a document is modified; it simply means
that the save action is disabled.  No more, no less.

Kohei

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Document Saved indicator

2012-05-31 Thread Kohei Yoshida
On Thu, 2012-05-31 at 22:54 -0400, Jay Lozier wrote:
 The grayed out Save button in LO also indicates that the document in
 unchanged since the last change. This is a very handy at a glance
 feature to know the save status. 

*sigh*  I guess the mis-use is very much prevalent.

Since we are now going in circles, I'll resign myself from further
discussion.

Have a nice day.

Kohei

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Model View separation?

2011-11-30 Thread Kohei Yoshida
On Fri, 2011-11-25 at 00:31 +, Greg wrote:
 How modular is the LibO code base? In other words, do we have separate
 *   document model (Model)
 *   page renderer | slide renderer |  drawing renderer c. (View)
 *   bunch of action modules (one for each user action), that can
 be rendered 
 as menu/context items, toolbar items, or API calls (Controller) 

At the framework level this sort of model view separation is enforced,
and each menu item, icon, context menu item etc is represented
internally as a command, which is mapped to an event ID.

Also these commands are what you see in the list of actions in the key
bindings page.

I suppose that answers your question.

Kohei

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Re: Platform Independent vs. Platform Specific Behavior (was: Re: [libreoffice-design] Take inspiration from Lotus Symphony ?)

2011-04-29 Thread Kohei Yoshida
On Thu, 2011-04-28 at 23:15 -0600, Scott Pledger wrote:
 Is there any chance of implementing any kind of an XML-based UI template?
  Something similar to XUL may be a good place to start...

We don't have any concrete vision of what the VCL replacement should
look like, but making UI definition files XML-based is surely a sane
approach.  In fact, when we attempted to replace it at one point, we did
use an XML-based UI definition format.  Some of these files are still
around in the code base though we are on their way out.

So, yeah, XML-based UI definition format is very likely.

Kohei


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Re: XML based UI? (was: Re: Platform Independent vs. Platform Specific Behavior (was: Re: [libreoffice-design] Take inspiration from Lotus Symphony ?))

2011-04-29 Thread Kohei Yoshida
On Fri, 2011-04-29 at 13:18 -0600, Scott Pledger wrote:

 Any thoughts?

Before we go overboard with this, I'd like to point out that a lot of us
developers have already gone through quite a lot of brainstorming and
trials and errors, and I don't want us to discuss this over here on the
design list as if none of the prior discussions and prototypes ever
happened.  Plus, the input we get on this list from other stake holders
and potential implementers are very limited.

So, if you are interested in discussing what the implementation should
be like, let's discuss this on the developer list.

Kohei






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Re: XML based UI? (was: Re: Platform Independent vs. Platform Specific Behavior (was: Re: [libreoffice-design] Take inspiration from Lotus Symphony ?))

2011-04-29 Thread Kohei Yoshida
On Fri, 2011-04-29 at 18:11 +0200, Christoph Noack wrote:
 Hi Kohei, hi Scott!
 
 Kohei, thanks for the helpful information here ... great that you're
 listening here (especially since I know your workload...)!

No problem.  I decided to jump in because we (the developers) have been
discussing this matter to death.  So, this is not just a concern for the
UI designers alone.

 Am Freitag, den 29.04.2011, 10:25 -0400 schrieb Kohei Yoshida:
  On Thu, 2011-04-28 at 23:15 -0600, Scott Pledger wrote:
   Is there any chance of implementing any kind of an XML-based UI template?
Something similar to XUL may be a good place to start...
  
  We don't have any concrete vision of what the VCL replacement should
  look like, but making UI definition files XML-based is surely a sane
  approach.  In fact, when we attempted to replace it at one point, we did
  use an XML-based UI definition format.  Some of these files are still
  around in the code base though we are on their way out.
  
  So, yeah, XML-based UI definition format is very likely.
 
 As far as I know, there have been several attempts to solve this issue.
 For example, at the OOoCon 2010 I attended a presentation related to XML
 based UI declaration ...
 
 http://www.ooocon.org/index.php/ooocon/2010/paper/view/199
 (see also the presentation download)
 
 Sun/Oracle also thought about that ... during my visit in Hamburg early
 2010, we discussed how e.g. toolpanes might ideally behave - some
 improvements about what we have today. Here, ideally mainly refers to
 its technical behavior to detach/attach them anywhere. In this
 discussion, XML based UI stuff was mentioned as well. Here is the blog
 post - no technical relevance, but maybe interesting:
 http://uxopenofficeorg.blogspot.com/2010/01/ux-meeting-in-hamburg-day-two.html

Thanks for the info.  FYI we (the Go-OO team) had worked on introducing
the new UI layout engine as well.  Though that attempt didn't really
materialize, we are very much interested in giving it another go.  So
this is very important to all of us, and many of us have been scratching
our heads trying to figure out what best to do to bring it forward.

We've looked through pretty much all existing frameworks but none of
them fit our need without making major compromise somewhere.  And to be
honest replacing one cross-platform framework (VCL) with another one may
not solve the issue, no matter how good some people believe the
replacement is.

Kohei

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Re: Platform Independent vs. Platform Specific Behavior (was: Re: [libreoffice-design] Take inspiration from Lotus Symphony ?)

2011-04-28 Thread Kohei Yoshida
On Thu, 2011-04-28 at 20:49 +0200, RGB ES wrote:

 Indeed. Correct me if I'm wrong (my technical background in not deep
 enough) but I think the problem is that OOo/LibO is using some archaic
 (and arcane) set of libraries to draw its UI called VCL, that no one
 else use. 

Yes.  This is correct.  Its design is so 20th century, to put it
mildly.

 As a matter of fact, OOo/LibO is NOT a GTK app, but a VCL
 app that can connect to GTK or Qt libraries through VCL plugins.(1)

Yup.  The plugins do the actual drawing while VCL defines what to draw
and where etc.  But because 

 Switching to a more modern set of libraries will easy the task of
 desktop integration preserving at the same time its own layout.
 But as always, writing the word switching is a lot easier that the
 switch itself.

Yes.  Different approaches are taken by different cross-platform apps,
and there is no one best approach to this cross-platform GUI situation
(as Christoph hinted earlier).

 (1) Chakra project recently published a LibO version 100% GTK free:
 http://chakra-project.org/news/index.php?/archives/175-LibreOffice-available-for-testing-Be-free.html

Interesting.  BTW, building LibO without GTK dependency should be
possible by simply setting the right build option (in theory).  So,
anyone who can build it can try it.  The core of LibO does not depend on
the GTK libraries the last I checked.

Kohei

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Proposal for Saving Information icons on Status Bar

2011-03-14 Thread Kohei Yoshida
Hi Christoph,

On Sat, 2011-03-12 at 13:23 +0100, Christoph Noack wrote:
 Kohei, would it make sense to turn this into an easy hack?
 
 
 
 Background: Improve the feedback for the user if a document has been
 saved recently. This feedback will be shown by extending the already
 available document symbol in the status bar.
 
   * Document Symbol Empty: Show if the document has been newly
 created, or the content is unchanged in comparison to the
 saved
 version.
   * Document Symbol Orange Star: Show if the document has been
 unsaved changes or a document saving process is still running.
   * Document Symbol Green Checkmark: Show for 3 seconds after a
 document saving process has been finished. Then switch to
 document symbol Empty (see above).
 
 Skills: ???
 
 Contact: LibreOffice Design Team (Paulo)
 
 Resources: ??? exported document symbol files

Yes.  Feel free to put this into easy hack.  I'll fill in the missing
bits (Skills etc) later.  But let's put this up on the page first.

Thanks!

Kohei

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Proposal for Saving Information icons on Status Bar

2011-03-11 Thread Kohei Yoshida
Hi Paulo,

On Tue, 2011-03-08 at 14:46 -0300, Paulo José wrote:
 OK, Kohei, thank you for info and comment.
 
 Here you find the checked version, including some refinements and a 
 little proposal: an icon to provide feedback to a correctly saving. 
 Maybe this icon can just appear for few seconds, then return to default 
 transparent icon. Just an idea to improve feedback's level.

Yes, this is a good idea, and I like it a lot.  That would greatly
enhance the visibility of this icon.

The only issue is that, implementing it would take a little extra
effort.  So what I'd like to do is to just leave the icon behavior as-is
for 3.4 (but update the icon images with yours), and look into
implementing timed feedback that you are proposing after the 3.4
release.  I hope that's okay.

Like I said, I like the idea of a little animated feedback that you are
suggesting.  So hopefully we can implement that at some point.

 http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Status-bar-icons-saved-file-14x11px.svg
  
 (if it doesn't work, force reload)

So, for 3.4, I guess we should take the left and middle ones?

Kohei

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Proposal for Saving Information icons on Status Bar

2011-03-08 Thread Kohei Yoshida
On Mon, 2011-03-07 at 11:29 -0500, Kohei Yoshida wrote:
 On Sun, 2011-03-06 at 19:49 -0300, Paulo José wrote:
  Replying quickly (Today my Father came to visit me in my current city! :-D):
  
  Thank you for the feedback! Perfectly, your suggestion to increase 
  transparency makes the status info goal seems clear to this icon. Do 
  you think we could incorporate this on the original icons or the 
  transparency is on the fly by software?
 
 The application uses the alpha (transparency) values of the original png
 file, so you can incorporate transparency into the original icon file.
 
 BTW, the new icon looks very sexy.  I appreciate your effort and
 artistic sense on making this icon. :-)

BTW, let me know if the icon is ready to be checked into the master
branch for the up-coming 3.4.

Kohei

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Proposal for Saving Information icons on Status Bar

2011-03-07 Thread Kohei Yoshida
On Sun, 2011-03-06 at 19:49 -0300, Paulo José wrote:
 Replying quickly (Today my Father came to visit me in my current city! :-D):
 
 Thank you for the feedback! Perfectly, your suggestion to increase 
 transparency makes the status info goal seems clear to this icon. Do 
 you think we could incorporate this on the original icons or the 
 transparency is on the fly by software?

The application uses the alpha (transparency) values of the original png
file, so you can incorporate transparency into the original icon file.

BTW, the new icon looks very sexy.  I appreciate your effort and
artistic sense on making this icon. :-)

Kohei

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