Re: moving email lists to GitHub Discussions (Was: [DISCUSS] moving email lists to Discourse)

[Joan Touzet]

Quick update for those who don't want to read JIRA (you can subscribe to 
the issue, by the way - could use more voices...):


Because the request is to put user support discussions there only for 
now, we aren't strictly required to have email integration with our 
users@ list. That's good!


The bad news is that GitHub Repo Discussions are still in limited beta, 
and we need someone at GH to enable that for our repo.


I have asked Infra to reach out to GH to ask about this, but have zero 
visibility into progress on that.


If I don't see any progress in a week or two, I'll poke them again.

The _good_ news is that if we felt we wanted to move forward with an 
alternative solution - again for user help only, no product decision 
making allowed outside of dev@ / something that cc's to dev@ - we could 
do that. But let's not be too hasty, GH Repo Discussions looks like the 
best match for us and the least long-term maintenance work.


-Joan "less admin == more maintainable" Touzet

On 2020-05-26 10:52, Nick Vatamaniuc wrote:

+1

Thank you, Joan!

On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 2:50 PM Jan Lehnardt  wrote:


Thanks Joan, I’m looking forward to Infra feedback.

Best
Jan
—


On 22. May 2020, at 19:31, Joan Touzet  wrote:

I haven't gotten a lot of feedback on this proposal. (I know a lot of people 
are marching towards deadlines right now.) I also don't want to take it to 
users@, unless there's a reality of it happening.

In the interest of moving this forward, I'm going to open an exploratory issue 
with Infra to see how much work it'd be to make this happen. Hopefully, we're 
not the first people to ask.

We'll still need a vote here, or on users@, before we would actually move 
activity to GH Discussions, but it won't be the gating factor for a while yet, 
I bet.

FYI, per our project guidelines/bylaws, this would be a non-technical decision, 
allowing for lazy consensus and a lazy majority (3 binding +1s, more binding 
+1s than binding -1s), with binding votes cast by committers, and no vetos.

-Joan

On 2020-05-12 14:41, Joan Touzet wrote:

On 2020-05-12 5:46 a.m., Ilya Khlopotov wrote:

I would be +1 as long as it works and we have options to migrate archive 
elsewhere if/when we need to.
You are proposing to mirror email traffic which means that mail archive would 
have a complete history and spare the project from total vendor lock in.


Yup, that'd be a requirement from the ASF's perspective, regardless of 
technology we select.
-Joan

Best regards,
ILYA

On 2020/05/11 19:04:53, Joan Touzet  wrote:

On 2020-03-15 9:36, Dave Cottlehuber wrote:

On Fri, 13 Mar 2020, at 14:35, Naomi Slater wrote:

apparently GitHub has discussions now. it's still in beta, but you can
specifically request it if you want it if you contact support, I think

e.g., https://github.com/zeit/next.js/discussions



interesting.


I'm interested to know what we think about this and how this
might/could fit into our plans for user support, discussion, etc.


Given that we already have email integration with GitHub, this will
probably be easier to get through the ASF bureaucracy than something
brand new.

I'm willing to take this through Infra if people agree to it. It doesn't
look like there are any separate "boards" or tags yet, so the proposal
would likely be that discussions there would get emailed onto user@. The
hard part will be getting replies to the thread on user@ to go back into
the discussion on GH; we might be able to get an "asf-bot" to do this
for us.

I also looked at Infra's JIRA database, and no one has put in this
request there yet. So, we'd be the first, with all the difficulties that
entails.

Can I get an informal "vote" on this approach and go-ahead? Since it's
informal, anyone is encouraged to respond.

-Joan "adopt, adapt, improve" Touzet

Re: moving email lists to GitHub Discussions (Was: [DISCUSS] moving email lists to Discourse)

[Nick Vatamaniuc]

+1

Thank you, Joan!

On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 2:50 PM Jan Lehnardt  wrote:
>
> Thanks Joan, I’m looking forward to Infra feedback.
>
> Best
> Jan
> —
>
> > On 22. May 2020, at 19:31, Joan Touzet  wrote:
> >
> > I haven't gotten a lot of feedback on this proposal. (I know a lot of 
> > people are marching towards deadlines right now.) I also don't want to take 
> > it to users@, unless there's a reality of it happening.
> >
> > In the interest of moving this forward, I'm going to open an exploratory 
> > issue with Infra to see how much work it'd be to make this happen. 
> > Hopefully, we're not the first people to ask.
> >
> > We'll still need a vote here, or on users@, before we would actually move 
> > activity to GH Discussions, but it won't be the gating factor for a while 
> > yet, I bet.
> >
> > FYI, per our project guidelines/bylaws, this would be a non-technical 
> > decision, allowing for lazy consensus and a lazy majority (3 binding +1s, 
> > more binding +1s than binding -1s), with binding votes cast by committers, 
> > and no vetos.
> >
> > -Joan
> >
> > On 2020-05-12 14:41, Joan Touzet wrote:
> >> On 2020-05-12 5:46 a.m., Ilya Khlopotov wrote:
> >>> I would be +1 as long as it works and we have options to migrate archive 
> >>> elsewhere if/when we need to.
> >>> You are proposing to mirror email traffic which means that mail archive 
> >>> would have a complete history and spare the project from total vendor 
> >>> lock in.
> >>>
> >> Yup, that'd be a requirement from the ASF's perspective, regardless of 
> >> technology we select.
> >> -Joan
> >>> Best regards,
> >>> ILYA
> >>>
> >>> On 2020/05/11 19:04:53, Joan Touzet  wrote:
>  On 2020-03-15 9:36, Dave Cottlehuber wrote:
> > On Fri, 13 Mar 2020, at 14:35, Naomi Slater wrote:
> >> apparently GitHub has discussions now. it's still in beta, but you can
> >> specifically request it if you want it if you contact support, I think
> >>
> >> e.g., https://github.com/zeit/next.js/discussions
> >> 
> >
> > interesting.
> >
> >> I'm interested to know what we think about this and how this
> >> might/could fit into our plans for user support, discussion, etc.
> 
>  Given that we already have email integration with GitHub, this will
>  probably be easier to get through the ASF bureaucracy than something
>  brand new.
> 
>  I'm willing to take this through Infra if people agree to it. It doesn't
>  look like there are any separate "boards" or tags yet, so the proposal
>  would likely be that discussions there would get emailed onto user@. The
>  hard part will be getting replies to the thread on user@ to go back into
>  the discussion on GH; we might be able to get an "asf-bot" to do this
>  for us.
> 
>  I also looked at Infra's JIRA database, and no one has put in this
>  request there yet. So, we'd be the first, with all the difficulties that
>  entails.
> 
>  Can I get an informal "vote" on this approach and go-ahead? Since it's
>  informal, anyone is encouraged to respond.
> 
>  -Joan "adopt, adapt, improve" Touzet
> 
>

Re: moving email lists to GitHub Discussions (Was: [DISCUSS] moving email lists to Discourse)

[Jan Lehnardt]

Thanks Joan, I’m looking forward to Infra feedback.

Best
Jan
—

> On 22. May 2020, at 19:31, Joan Touzet  wrote:
> 
> I haven't gotten a lot of feedback on this proposal. (I know a lot of people 
> are marching towards deadlines right now.) I also don't want to take it to 
> users@, unless there's a reality of it happening.
> 
> In the interest of moving this forward, I'm going to open an exploratory 
> issue with Infra to see how much work it'd be to make this happen. Hopefully, 
> we're not the first people to ask.
> 
> We'll still need a vote here, or on users@, before we would actually move 
> activity to GH Discussions, but it won't be the gating factor for a while 
> yet, I bet.
> 
> FYI, per our project guidelines/bylaws, this would be a non-technical 
> decision, allowing for lazy consensus and a lazy majority (3 binding +1s, 
> more binding +1s than binding -1s), with binding votes cast by committers, 
> and no vetos.
> 
> -Joan
> 
> On 2020-05-12 14:41, Joan Touzet wrote:
>> On 2020-05-12 5:46 a.m., Ilya Khlopotov wrote:
>>> I would be +1 as long as it works and we have options to migrate archive 
>>> elsewhere if/when we need to.
>>> You are proposing to mirror email traffic which means that mail archive 
>>> would have a complete history and spare the project from total vendor lock 
>>> in.
>>> 
>> Yup, that'd be a requirement from the ASF's perspective, regardless of 
>> technology we select.
>> -Joan
>>> Best regards,
>>> ILYA
>>> 
>>> On 2020/05/11 19:04:53, Joan Touzet  wrote:
 On 2020-03-15 9:36, Dave Cottlehuber wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Mar 2020, at 14:35, Naomi Slater wrote:
>> apparently GitHub has discussions now. it's still in beta, but you can
>> specifically request it if you want it if you contact support, I think
>> 
>> e.g., https://github.com/zeit/next.js/discussions
>> 
> 
> interesting.
> 
>> I'm interested to know what we think about this and how this
>> might/could fit into our plans for user support, discussion, etc.
 
 Given that we already have email integration with GitHub, this will
 probably be easier to get through the ASF bureaucracy than something
 brand new.
 
 I'm willing to take this through Infra if people agree to it. It doesn't
 look like there are any separate "boards" or tags yet, so the proposal
 would likely be that discussions there would get emailed onto user@. The
 hard part will be getting replies to the thread on user@ to go back into
 the discussion on GH; we might be able to get an "asf-bot" to do this
 for us.
 
 I also looked at Infra's JIRA database, and no one has put in this
 request there yet. So, we'd be the first, with all the difficulties that
 entails.
 
 Can I get an informal "vote" on this approach and go-ahead? Since it's
 informal, anyone is encouraged to respond.
 
 -Joan "adopt, adapt, improve" Touzet
 

Re: moving email lists to GitHub Discussions (Was: [DISCUSS] moving email lists to Discourse)

[Joan Touzet]

On 2020-05-22 13:31, Joan Touzet wrote:
I haven't gotten a lot of feedback on this proposal. (I know a lot of 
people are marching towards deadlines right now.) I also don't want to 
take it to users@, unless there's a reality of it happening.


In the interest of moving this forward, I'm going to open an exploratory 
issue with Infra to see how much work it'd be to make this happen. 
Hopefully, we're not the first people to ask.


https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-20301 has been filed.

We'll still need a vote here, or on users@, before we would actually 
move activity to GH Discussions, but it won't be the gating factor for a 
while yet, I bet.


FYI, per our project guidelines/bylaws, this would be a non-technical 
decision, allowing for lazy consensus and a lazy majority (3 binding 
+1s, more binding +1s than binding -1s), with binding votes cast by 
committers, and no vetos.


-Joan

On 2020-05-12 14:41, Joan Touzet wrote:

On 2020-05-12 5:46 a.m., Ilya Khlopotov wrote:
I would be +1 as long as it works and we have options to migrate 
archive elsewhere if/when we need to.
You are proposing to mirror email traffic which means that mail 
archive would have a complete history and spare the project from 
total vendor lock in.




Yup, that'd be a requirement from the ASF's perspective, regardless of 
technology we select.


-Joan


Best regards,
ILYA

On 2020/05/11 19:04:53, Joan Touzet  wrote:

On 2020-03-15 9:36, Dave Cottlehuber wrote:

On Fri, 13 Mar 2020, at 14:35, Naomi Slater wrote:
apparently GitHub has discussions now. it's still in beta, but you 
can
specifically request it if you want it if you contact support, I 
think


e.g., https://github.com/zeit/next.js/discussions



interesting.


I'm interested to know what we think about this and how this
might/could fit into our plans for user support, discussion, etc.


Given that we already have email integration with GitHub, this will
probably be easier to get through the ASF bureaucracy than something
brand new.

I'm willing to take this through Infra if people agree to it. It 
doesn't

look like there are any separate "boards" or tags yet, so the proposal
would likely be that discussions there would get emailed onto user@. 
The
hard part will be getting replies to the thread on user@ to go back 
into

the discussion on GH; we might be able to get an "asf-bot" to do this
for us.

I also looked at Infra's JIRA database, and no one has put in this
request there yet. So, we'd be the first, with all the difficulties 
that

entails.

Can I get an informal "vote" on this approach and go-ahead? Since it's
informal, anyone is encouraged to respond.

-Joan "adopt, adapt, improve" Touzet

Re: moving email lists to GitHub Discussions (Was: [DISCUSS] moving email lists to Discourse)

[Joan Touzet]

I haven't gotten a lot of feedback on this proposal. (I know a lot of 
people are marching towards deadlines right now.) I also don't want to 
take it to users@, unless there's a reality of it happening.


In the interest of moving this forward, I'm going to open an exploratory 
issue with Infra to see how much work it'd be to make this happen. 
Hopefully, we're not the first people to ask.


We'll still need a vote here, or on users@, before we would actually 
move activity to GH Discussions, but it won't be the gating factor for a 
while yet, I bet.


FYI, per our project guidelines/bylaws, this would be a non-technical 
decision, allowing for lazy consensus and a lazy majority (3 binding 
+1s, more binding +1s than binding -1s), with binding votes cast by 
committers, and no vetos.


-Joan

On 2020-05-12 14:41, Joan Touzet wrote:

On 2020-05-12 5:46 a.m., Ilya Khlopotov wrote:
I would be +1 as long as it works and we have options to migrate 
archive elsewhere if/when we need to.
You are proposing to mirror email traffic which means that mail 
archive would have a complete history and spare the project from total 
vendor lock in.




Yup, that'd be a requirement from the ASF's perspective, regardless of 
technology we select.


-Joan


Best regards,
ILYA

On 2020/05/11 19:04:53, Joan Touzet  wrote:

On 2020-03-15 9:36, Dave Cottlehuber wrote:

On Fri, 13 Mar 2020, at 14:35, Naomi Slater wrote:

apparently GitHub has discussions now. it's still in beta, but you can
specifically request it if you want it if you contact support, I think

e.g., https://github.com/zeit/next.js/discussions



interesting.


I'm interested to know what we think about this and how this
might/could fit into our plans for user support, discussion, etc.


Given that we already have email integration with GitHub, this will
probably be easier to get through the ASF bureaucracy than something
brand new.

I'm willing to take this through Infra if people agree to it. It doesn't
look like there are any separate "boards" or tags yet, so the proposal
would likely be that discussions there would get emailed onto user@. The
hard part will be getting replies to the thread on user@ to go back into
the discussion on GH; we might be able to get an "asf-bot" to do this
for us.

I also looked at Infra's JIRA database, and no one has put in this
request there yet. So, we'd be the first, with all the difficulties that
entails.

Can I get an informal "vote" on this approach and go-ahead? Since it's
informal, anyone is encouraged to respond.

-Joan "adopt, adapt, improve" Touzet

Re: moving email lists to GitHub Discussions (Was: [DISCUSS] moving email lists to Discourse)

[Joan Touzet]

On 2020-05-12 5:46 a.m., Ilya Khlopotov wrote:

I would be +1 as long as it works and we have options to migrate archive 
elsewhere if/when we need to.
You are proposing to mirror email traffic which means that mail archive would 
have a complete history and spare the project from total vendor lock in.



Yup, that'd be a requirement from the ASF's perspective, regardless of 
technology we select.


-Joan


Best regards,
ILYA

On 2020/05/11 19:04:53, Joan Touzet  wrote:

On 2020-03-15 9:36, Dave Cottlehuber wrote:

On Fri, 13 Mar 2020, at 14:35, Naomi Slater wrote:

apparently GitHub has discussions now. it's still in beta, but you can
specifically request it if you want it if you contact support, I think

e.g., https://github.com/zeit/next.js/discussions



interesting.


I'm interested to know what we think about this and how this
might/could fit into our plans for user support, discussion, etc.


Given that we already have email integration with GitHub, this will
probably be easier to get through the ASF bureaucracy than something
brand new.

I'm willing to take this through Infra if people agree to it. It doesn't
look like there are any separate "boards" or tags yet, so the proposal
would likely be that discussions there would get emailed onto user@. The
hard part will be getting replies to the thread on user@ to go back into
the discussion on GH; we might be able to get an "asf-bot" to do this
for us.

I also looked at Infra's JIRA database, and no one has put in this
request there yet. So, we'd be the first, with all the difficulties that
entails.

Can I get an informal "vote" on this approach and go-ahead? Since it's
informal, anyone is encouraged to respond.

-Joan "adopt, adapt, improve" Touzet

Re: moving email lists to GitHub Discussions (Was: [DISCUSS] moving email lists to Discourse)

[Jan Lehnardt]

I’d be willing to give this a go. +1 :)

Best
Jan
—

> On 11. May 2020, at 21:04, Joan Touzet  wrote:
> 
> On 2020-03-15 9:36, Dave Cottlehuber wrote:
>> On Fri, 13 Mar 2020, at 14:35, Naomi Slater wrote:
>>> apparently GitHub has discussions now. it's still in beta, but you can
>>> specifically request it if you want it if you contact support, I think
>>> 
>>> e.g., https://github.com/zeit/next.js/discussions
>>> 
>> interesting.
>>> I'm interested to know what we think about this and how this
>>> might/could fit into our plans for user support, discussion, etc.
> 
> Given that we already have email integration with GitHub, this will probably 
> be easier to get through the ASF bureaucracy than something brand new.
> 
> I'm willing to take this through Infra if people agree to it. It doesn't look 
> like there are any separate "boards" or tags yet, so the proposal would 
> likely be that discussions there would get emailed onto user@. The hard part 
> will be getting replies to the thread on user@ to go back into the discussion 
> on GH; we might be able to get an "asf-bot" to do this for us.
> 
> I also looked at Infra's JIRA database, and no one has put in this request 
> there yet. So, we'd be the first, with all the difficulties that entails.
> 
> Can I get an informal "vote" on this approach and go-ahead? Since it's 
> informal, anyone is encouraged to respond.
> 
> -Joan "adopt, adapt, improve" Touzet

Re: moving email lists to GitHub Discussions (Was: [DISCUSS] moving email lists to Discourse)

[Ilya Khlopotov]

I would be +1 as long as it works and we have options to migrate archive 
elsewhere if/when we need to.
You are proposing to mirror email traffic which means that mail archive would 
have a complete history and spare the project from total vendor lock in.

Best regards,
ILYA   

On 2020/05/11 19:04:53, Joan Touzet  wrote: 
> On 2020-03-15 9:36, Dave Cottlehuber wrote:
> > On Fri, 13 Mar 2020, at 14:35, Naomi Slater wrote:
> >> apparently GitHub has discussions now. it's still in beta, but you can
> >> specifically request it if you want it if you contact support, I think
> >>
> >> e.g., https://github.com/zeit/next.js/discussions
> >> 
> > 
> > interesting.
> > 
> >> I'm interested to know what we think about this and how this
> >> might/could fit into our plans for user support, discussion, etc.
> 
> Given that we already have email integration with GitHub, this will 
> probably be easier to get through the ASF bureaucracy than something 
> brand new.
> 
> I'm willing to take this through Infra if people agree to it. It doesn't 
> look like there are any separate "boards" or tags yet, so the proposal 
> would likely be that discussions there would get emailed onto user@. The 
> hard part will be getting replies to the thread on user@ to go back into 
> the discussion on GH; we might be able to get an "asf-bot" to do this 
> for us.
> 
> I also looked at Infra's JIRA database, and no one has put in this 
> request there yet. So, we'd be the first, with all the difficulties that 
> entails.
> 
> Can I get an informal "vote" on this approach and go-ahead? Since it's 
> informal, anyone is encouraged to respond.
> 
> -Joan "adopt, adapt, improve" Touzet
> 

Re: moving email lists to GitHub Discussions (Was: [DISCUSS] moving email lists to Discourse)

[Alessio 'Blaster' Biancalana]

It looks to me like adopting github for a centralized workflow that
involves PRs, issues, discussions and all of this stuff.

KISS principle! Also, potential contributors tend to look on discussion
boards and sadly discussion lists are a bit naive :/

So, +1 on that.

Alessio

On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 9:06 PM Joan Touzet  wrote:

> On 2020-03-15 9:36, Dave Cottlehuber wrote:
> > On Fri, 13 Mar 2020, at 14:35, Naomi Slater wrote:
> >> apparently GitHub has discussions now. it's still in beta, but you can
> >> specifically request it if you want it if you contact support, I think
> >>
> >> e.g., https://github.com/zeit/next.js/discussions
> >> 
> >
> > interesting.
> >
> >> I'm interested to know what we think about this and how this
> >> might/could fit into our plans for user support, discussion, etc.
>
> Given that we already have email integration with GitHub, this will
> probably be easier to get through the ASF bureaucracy than something
> brand new.
>
> I'm willing to take this through Infra if people agree to it. It doesn't
> look like there are any separate "boards" or tags yet, so the proposal
> would likely be that discussions there would get emailed onto user@. The
> hard part will be getting replies to the thread on user@ to go back into
> the discussion on GH; we might be able to get an "asf-bot" to do this
> for us.
>
> I also looked at Infra's JIRA database, and no one has put in this
> request there yet. So, we'd be the first, with all the difficulties that
> entails.
>
> Can I get an informal "vote" on this approach and go-ahead? Since it's
> informal, anyone is encouraged to respond.
>
> -Joan "adopt, adapt, improve" Touzet
>

Re: moving email lists to GitHub Discussions (Was: [DISCUSS] moving email lists to Discourse)

[Joan Touzet]

On 2020-03-15 9:36, Dave Cottlehuber wrote:

On Fri, 13 Mar 2020, at 14:35, Naomi Slater wrote:

apparently GitHub has discussions now. it's still in beta, but you can
specifically request it if you want it if you contact support, I think

e.g., https://github.com/zeit/next.js/discussions



interesting.


I'm interested to know what we think about this and how this
might/could fit into our plans for user support, discussion, etc.


Given that we already have email integration with GitHub, this will 
probably be easier to get through the ASF bureaucracy than something 
brand new.


I'm willing to take this through Infra if people agree to it. It doesn't 
look like there are any separate "boards" or tags yet, so the proposal 
would likely be that discussions there would get emailed onto user@. The 
hard part will be getting replies to the thread on user@ to go back into 
the discussion on GH; we might be able to get an "asf-bot" to do this 
for us.


I also looked at Infra's JIRA database, and no one has put in this 
request there yet. So, we'd be the first, with all the difficulties that 
entails.


Can I get an informal "vote" on this approach and go-ahead? Since it's 
informal, anyone is encouraged to respond.


-Joan "adopt, adapt, improve" Touzet

Re: [DISCUSS] moving email lists to Discourse

[Reddy B .]

Many thanks, I wasn't aware of this website, the experience is indeed much more 
pleasant!

For the rest what you are saying makes sense to me, maybe the key lies in the 
notification system of whatever system is choosen. If it can be reliable enough 
it can work even for core developers.

Maybe the missed emails are a matter of SMTP servers rejecting the email 
because of false positives with spam detection. This is very frequent 
especially with gmail. Configuring an external SMTP server like SendGrid or 
AmazonSES could be all that is needed to make notification emails reliable.


De : Joan Touzet 
Envoyé : dimanche 15 mars 2020 19:02
À : dev@couchdb.apache.org 
Objet : Re: [DISCUSS] moving email lists to Discourse

On 2020-03-15 11:02 a.m., Reddy B. wrote:
>However, if you are an outsider looking for context that was discussed 2 years 
>ago, even Couchdb's official archive 
>website<https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/couchdb-dev/> does not have 
>a search function. There may be a way but this is clearly not as user friendly 
>than something like discourse.

That archive has been retired, though it's still online for some time
yet. Try this one for a much better experience, with search:

https://lists.apache.org/list.html?dev@couchdb.apache.org

> So far I have never subscribed to email notifications on these platforms, I 
> just visit the website and have no problem with that. Moreover something like 
> Discourse even groups the topics that were discussed "since you last 
> visited". Just sharing my experience since many people may be similar.

It's harder for those of us who actively maintain the software as part
of our daily routine to switch from a "push" to a 'pull" model for these
things, but it is absolutely easier for people only looking to ask a few
questions and get answers - that's for sure.

That said, I rely entirely on email from GitHub to stay abreast of our
code changes and pull requests. I think I'd be sunk if I had to use the
activity feed on GitHub's website.

-Joan "social distancing works" Touzet

Re: [DISCUSS] moving email lists to Discourse

[Joan Touzet]

On 2020-03-15 11:02 a.m., Reddy B. wrote:

However, if you are an outsider looking for context that was discussed 2 years ago, 
even Couchdb's official archive 
website does not have a 
search function. There may be a way but this is clearly not as user friendly than 
something like discourse.


That archive has been retired, though it's still online for some time 
yet. Try this one for a much better experience, with search:


https://lists.apache.org/list.html?dev@couchdb.apache.org


So far I have never subscribed to email notifications on these platforms, I just visit 
the website and have no problem with that. Moreover something like Discourse even groups 
the topics that were discussed "since you last visited". Just sharing my 
experience since many people may be similar.


It's harder for those of us who actively maintain the software as part 
of our daily routine to switch from a "push" to a 'pull" model for these 
things, but it is absolutely easier for people only looking to ask a few 
questions and get answers - that's for sure.


That said, I rely entirely on email from GitHub to stay abreast of our 
code changes and pull requests. I think I'd be sunk if I had to use the 
activity feed on GitHub's website.


-Joan "social distancing works" Touzet

Re: [DISCUSS] moving email lists to Discourse

[Steven Le Roux]

Just wanted to share that as a user, I'm a big fan of the FDB digest sent
by discourse (FoundationDB Summary).

Great readability and save me a lot of time.

On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 3:32 PM Garren Smith  wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> The CouchDB slack channel has been a real success with lots of people
> asking for help and getting involved. The main issue is that it is not
> searchable so we often get people asking the same questions over and over.
> The user mailing list is great in that sense that if you have subscribed to
> it you have a searchable list of questions and answers. However, it's
> really not user-friendly and judging by the fact that it has very low user
> participation I'm guessing most people prefer to use slack to ask
> questions.
>
> I've been really impressed with how the FoundationDB forum[1] and the rust
> internal forum work [2]. I find them easy to use and really encourage
> participation. I would like to propose that we move our user and dev
> discussion to Discourse or a forum that works as well as Discourse. I think
> that would make it really easy for users of CouchDB to look up answers to
> questions and get involved in the development discussion.
>
> I haven't checked yet, but I'm sure we could get all discourse threads to
> automatically email back to the user and dev mailing list so that we still
> fulfill our Apache requirements.
>
> I know its a big step away from what we're used to with our mailing lists,
> but I think it would definitely open up our community.
>
> Cheers
> Garren
>
>
> [1] https://forums.foundationdb.org/
> [2] https://internals.rust-lang.org/
>

RE: [DISCUSS] moving email lists to Discourse

[Reddy B .]

To add my two cents, I personally engage much more on communities using 
discourse or some modern Forum engines, than on those relying on mailing lists.

As far as browsing archives is concerned, I personally always find it painful 
to browse email archives to find relevant information. Maybe if you have been 
part of the community from day 1, and you have been storing all emails locally, 
then launching a search in your email client is convenient (but even then, the 
quality of your results will depend on the search implementation of your email 
client + what about if you're not using your regular computer). However, if you 
are an outsider looking for context that was discussed 2 years ago, even 
Couchdb's official archive 
website<https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/couchdb-dev/> does not have a 
search function. There may be a way but this is clearly not as user friendly 
than something like discourse.

I would also note that beyond archive scenarios, one major benefit of tools 
like Discord that people often fail to verbalize is that they capture social 
dynamics around a topic/issue. You can see how many people viewed a topic, 
liked a post etc... It is so valuable to know that the piece of information you 
have found helped the original poster, or was "blessed" with a like by a senior 
member of the community.

This also helps the archiving scenario since you have very helpful activity 
feeds, which also allow you to stay on top of your preferred communities 
quickly. If questions are redundant you can link to the previous topic easily 
or even merge topics. Referencing former discussions on emails is much more 
difficult and impractical. My observation is that people just get tired of 
answering the same question and ignore new posters or start replying with 
one-liners.

So far I have never subscribed to email notifications on these platforms, I 
just visit the website and have no problem with that. Moreover something like 
Discourse even groups the topics that were discussed "since you last visited". 
Just sharing my experience since many people may be similar.


De : Dave Cottlehuber 
Envoyé : dimanche 15 mars 2020 14:36
À : dev@couchdb.apache.org 
Objet : Re: [DISCUSS] moving email lists to Discourse

On Fri, 13 Mar 2020, at 14:35, Naomi Slater wrote:
> apparently GitHub has discussions now. it's still in beta, but you can
> specifically request it if you want it if you contact support, I think
>
> e.g., https://github.com/zeit/next.js/discussions
> <https://github.com/zeit/next.js/discussions>

interesting.

> I'm interested to know what we think about this and how this
> might/could fit into our plans for user support, discussion, etc.
>
> > On 13 Mar 2020, at 00:41, Arturo GARCIA-VARGAS  wrote:
> >
> > I'm sure Discourse is a fantastic thing (never used it!) but for us 
> > dinosaurs that still use Email it would be a bad move.
> >
> > Plain text rulez

I concur.

My 2c is that I have become a unix greybeard in habit, if not physical
attributes. I feel that neither slack nor discourse facilitate being
involved in multiple communities concurrently, they are actively hostile to
it. I spent significantly less time in discourse/slack vs irc/email
communities.

The rust discourse, and others that I follow, truncate outbound emails,
and also limit the numbers of outbound messages, effectively making it
not really email, and forcing you to browse the site. This is significantly
slower than churning through a stash of emails to catch up.

That said, user convenience trumps developer satisfaction. If the flock
is moving off mailing lists, then the shepherd should follow.

A+
Dave

Re: [DISCUSS] moving email lists to Discourse

[Dave Cottlehuber]

On Fri, 13 Mar 2020, at 14:35, Naomi Slater wrote:
> apparently GitHub has discussions now. it's still in beta, but you can 
> specifically request it if you want it if you contact support, I think
> 
> e.g., https://github.com/zeit/next.js/discussions 
> 

interesting.

> I'm interested to know what we think about this and how this 
> might/could fit into our plans for user support, discussion, etc.
> 
> > On 13 Mar 2020, at 00:41, Arturo GARCIA-VARGAS  wrote:
> > 
> > I'm sure Discourse is a fantastic thing (never used it!) but for us 
> > dinosaurs that still use Email it would be a bad move.
> > 
> > Plain text rulez

I concur.

My 2c is that I have become a unix greybeard in habit, if not physical
attributes. I feel that neither slack nor discourse facilitate being
involved in multiple communities concurrently, they are actively hostile to
it. I spent significantly less time in discourse/slack vs irc/email
communities.

The rust discourse, and others that I follow, truncate outbound emails,
and also limit the numbers of outbound messages, effectively making it
not really email, and forcing you to browse the site. This is significantly
slower than churning through a stash of emails to catch up.

That said, user convenience trumps developer satisfaction. If the flock
is moving off mailing lists, then the shepherd should follow.

A+
Dave

Re: [DISCUSS] moving email lists to Discourse

[Naomi Slater]

apparently GitHub has discussions now. it's still in beta, but you can 
specifically request it if you want it if you contact support, I think

e.g., https://github.com/zeit/next.js/discussions 


I'm interested to know what we think about this and how this might/could fit 
into our plans for user support, discussion, etc.

> On 13 Mar 2020, at 00:41, Arturo GARCIA-VARGAS  wrote:
> 
> I'm sure Discourse is a fantastic thing (never used it!) but for us dinosaurs 
> that still use Email it would be a bad move.
> 
> Plain text rulez
> 
> On 12 March 2020 23:37:18 GMT+00:00, Joan Touzet  wrote:
>> FYI, WikiMedia are currently looking at moving from mailing lists to 
>> Discourse and have done a comprehensive fit/gap analysis. Here's their 
>> results, as current as 7 March 2020.
>> 
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Discourse
>> 
>> Looks like email integration is still a problem, and specifically the 
>> problem of only-mailing list users being "left behind" (i.e., the
>> bridge 
>> seems to only work correctly one-way.) Other complications include data
>> 
>> export.
>> 
>> -Joan
>> 
>> On 2020-03-12 14:56, Marcus wrote:
>>> The Discourse development team are always very helpful, and
>> friendly.
>>> 
>>> http://meta.discourse.org
>>> 
>>> I am sure they would help CouchDB comply with Apache rules, if there
>> are any technical issues. Once it has been discussed with Apache of
>> course.
>>> 
>>> Discourse is excellent software. Thoughtfully designed and well
>> maintained. I had a Discourse server running on Digital Ocean for two
>> years.
>>> 
>>> It’s really nice to use and gives the community more of a
>> campfire/hub feeling.
>>> 
>>> Discourse is nothing like the old style forum software. There are
>> some talks on YouTube where Jeff (aka codinghorror) discusses how he
>> designed it (I think it was a talk at MIT?). It’s really interesting
>> from a design and development perspective.
>>> 
>>> Marcus
>>> 
>>> 
 On 12. Mar 2020, at 18:27, Joan Touzet  wrote:
 
 Hi Garren, thanks for thinking ahead on this one.
 
> On 2020-03-12 10:32, Garren Smith wrote:
> Hi All,
> The CouchDB slack channel has been a real success with lots of
>> people
> asking for help and getting involved. The main issue is that it is
>> not
> searchable so we often get people asking the same questions over
>> and over.
> The user mailing list is great in that sense that if you have
>> subscribed to
> it you have a searchable list of questions and answers. However,
>> it's
> really not user-friendly and judging by the fact that it has very
>> low user
> participation I'm guessing most people prefer to use slack to ask
>> questions.
> I've been really impressed with how the FoundationDB forum[1] and
>> the rust
> internal forum work [2]. I find them easy to use and really
>> encourage
> participation.
 
 I've been having trouble getting Discourse to send me email
>> notification when someone follows up to my responses to a thread I
>> didn't start. I think I've enabled the correct settings, but it's not
>> acting as expected. Hrm.
 
 I do know that Discourse has a full "mailing list mode," I just
>> haven't wanted 100% of the email from FoundationDB's forum to end up in
>> my inbox. (I *would* want that for user and dev@couchdb.a.o.)
 
> I would like to propose that we move our user and dev
> discussion to Discourse or a forum that works as well as Discourse.
>> I think
> that would make it really easy for users of CouchDB to look up
>> answers to
> questions and get involved in the development discussion.
> I haven't checked yet, but I'm sure we could get all discourse
>> threads to
> automatically email back to the user and dev mailing list so that
>> we still
> fulfill our Apache requirements.
 
 We'd for sure have to have everything land on the Apache CouchDB
>> mailing lists as well as here to meet Apache rules and regulations.
>> And, of course, Infrastructure is going to have to approve the move,
>> possibly the Board as well.
 
 With the lists still existing forever, Discourse would need to be
>> configured to accept email responses as well, from people emailing dev@
>> or user@, meaning a *bi-directional email gateway* will likely have to
>> be written/integrated. (I very much doubt Infra will be willing to
>> redirect dev@/user@ _directly_ into Discourse.)
 
 Thus, the bottleneck on the proposal is going to be Infrastructure's
>> desire to move ahead, as well as their ability to put resources on
>> solving the integration issues (unless you're willing to directly
>> volunteer to help code that up.)
 
 Infra may, for instance, want to host Discourse themselves (if I
>> recall correctly, it is self-hostable), and may find some friction
>> between that and the nascent Pony Mail project that serves out
>> lists.apache.org - if not 

Re: [DISCUSS] moving email lists to Discourse

[Arturo GARCIA-VARGAS]

I'm sure Discourse is a fantastic thing (never used it!) but for us dinosaurs 
that still use Email it would be a bad move.

Plain text rulez

On 12 March 2020 23:37:18 GMT+00:00, Joan Touzet  wrote:
>FYI, WikiMedia are currently looking at moving from mailing lists to 
>Discourse and have done a comprehensive fit/gap analysis. Here's their 
>results, as current as 7 March 2020.
>
>https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Discourse
>
>Looks like email integration is still a problem, and specifically the 
>problem of only-mailing list users being "left behind" (i.e., the
>bridge 
>seems to only work correctly one-way.) Other complications include data
>
>export.
>
>-Joan
>
>On 2020-03-12 14:56, Marcus wrote:
>> The Discourse development team are always very helpful, and
>friendly.
>> 
>> http://meta.discourse.org
>> 
>> I am sure they would help CouchDB comply with Apache rules, if there
>are any technical issues. Once it has been discussed with Apache of
>course.
>> 
>> Discourse is excellent software. Thoughtfully designed and well
>maintained. I had a Discourse server running on Digital Ocean for two
>years.
>> 
>> It’s really nice to use and gives the community more of a
>campfire/hub feeling.
>> 
>> Discourse is nothing like the old style forum software. There are
>some talks on YouTube where Jeff (aka codinghorror) discusses how he
>designed it (I think it was a talk at MIT?). It’s really interesting
>from a design and development perspective.
>> 
>> Marcus
>> 
>> 
>>> On 12. Mar 2020, at 18:27, Joan Touzet  wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Garren, thanks for thinking ahead on this one.
>>>
 On 2020-03-12 10:32, Garren Smith wrote:
 Hi All,
 The CouchDB slack channel has been a real success with lots of
>people
 asking for help and getting involved. The main issue is that it is
>not
 searchable so we often get people asking the same questions over
>and over.
 The user mailing list is great in that sense that if you have
>subscribed to
 it you have a searchable list of questions and answers. However,
>it's
 really not user-friendly and judging by the fact that it has very
>low user
 participation I'm guessing most people prefer to use slack to ask
>questions.
 I've been really impressed with how the FoundationDB forum[1] and
>the rust
 internal forum work [2]. I find them easy to use and really
>encourage
 participation.
>>>
>>> I've been having trouble getting Discourse to send me email
>notification when someone follows up to my responses to a thread I
>didn't start. I think I've enabled the correct settings, but it's not
>acting as expected. Hrm.
>>>
>>> I do know that Discourse has a full "mailing list mode," I just
>haven't wanted 100% of the email from FoundationDB's forum to end up in
>my inbox. (I *would* want that for user and dev@couchdb.a.o.)
>>>
 I would like to propose that we move our user and dev
 discussion to Discourse or a forum that works as well as Discourse.
>I think
 that would make it really easy for users of CouchDB to look up
>answers to
 questions and get involved in the development discussion.
 I haven't checked yet, but I'm sure we could get all discourse
>threads to
 automatically email back to the user and dev mailing list so that
>we still
 fulfill our Apache requirements.
>>>
>>> We'd for sure have to have everything land on the Apache CouchDB
>mailing lists as well as here to meet Apache rules and regulations.
>And, of course, Infrastructure is going to have to approve the move,
>possibly the Board as well.
>>>
>>> With the lists still existing forever, Discourse would need to be
>configured to accept email responses as well, from people emailing dev@
>or user@, meaning a *bi-directional email gateway* will likely have to
>be written/integrated. (I very much doubt Infra will be willing to
>redirect dev@/user@ _directly_ into Discourse.)
>>>
>>> Thus, the bottleneck on the proposal is going to be Infrastructure's
>desire to move ahead, as well as their ability to put resources on
>solving the integration issues (unless you're willing to directly
>volunteer to help code that up.)
>>>
>>> Infra may, for instance, want to host Discourse themselves (if I
>recall correctly, it is self-hostable), and may find some friction
>between that and the nascent Pony Mail project that serves out
>lists.apache.org - if not technically, from human factors.
>>>
>>> You should, at a bare minimum, familiarise yourself with
>https://lists.apache.org/list.html?dev@couchdb.apache.org and determine
>why it doesn't meet our needs. A bullet-point list would be prudent;
>Infra is bound to raise this as their first point.
>>>
 I know its a big step away from what we're used to with our mailing
>lists,
 but I think it would definitely open up our community.
>>>
>>> I'm in support of the idea, but the devil's in the implementation
>details. Like our efforts with git, and Slack, someone is going to have
>to work together with Infra on this 

Re: [DISCUSS] moving email lists to Discourse

[Joan Touzet]

FYI, WikiMedia are currently looking at moving from mailing lists to 
Discourse and have done a comprehensive fit/gap analysis. Here's their 
results, as current as 7 March 2020.


https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Discourse

Looks like email integration is still a problem, and specifically the 
problem of only-mailing list users being "left behind" (i.e., the bridge 
seems to only work correctly one-way.) Other complications include data 
export.


-Joan

On 2020-03-12 14:56, Marcus wrote:

The Discourse development team are always very helpful, and friendly.

http://meta.discourse.org

I am sure they would help CouchDB comply with Apache rules, if there are any 
technical issues. Once it has been discussed with Apache of course.

Discourse is excellent software. Thoughtfully designed and well maintained. I 
had a Discourse server running on Digital Ocean for two years.

It’s really nice to use and gives the community more of a campfire/hub feeling.

Discourse is nothing like the old style forum software. There are some talks on 
YouTube where Jeff (aka codinghorror) discusses how he designed it (I think it 
was a talk at MIT?). It’s really interesting from a design and development 
perspective.

Marcus



On 12. Mar 2020, at 18:27, Joan Touzet  wrote:

Hi Garren, thanks for thinking ahead on this one.


On 2020-03-12 10:32, Garren Smith wrote:
Hi All,
The CouchDB slack channel has been a real success with lots of people
asking for help and getting involved. The main issue is that it is not
searchable so we often get people asking the same questions over and over.
The user mailing list is great in that sense that if you have subscribed to
it you have a searchable list of questions and answers. However, it's
really not user-friendly and judging by the fact that it has very low user
participation I'm guessing most people prefer to use slack to ask questions.
I've been really impressed with how the FoundationDB forum[1] and the rust
internal forum work [2]. I find them easy to use and really encourage
participation.


I've been having trouble getting Discourse to send me email notification when 
someone follows up to my responses to a thread I didn't start. I think I've 
enabled the correct settings, but it's not acting as expected. Hrm.

I do know that Discourse has a full "mailing list mode," I just haven't wanted 
100% of the email from FoundationDB's forum to end up in my inbox. (I *would* want that 
for user and dev@couchdb.a.o.)


I would like to propose that we move our user and dev
discussion to Discourse or a forum that works as well as Discourse. I think
that would make it really easy for users of CouchDB to look up answers to
questions and get involved in the development discussion.
I haven't checked yet, but I'm sure we could get all discourse threads to
automatically email back to the user and dev mailing list so that we still
fulfill our Apache requirements.


We'd for sure have to have everything land on the Apache CouchDB mailing lists 
as well as here to meet Apache rules and regulations. And, of course, 
Infrastructure is going to have to approve the move, possibly the Board as well.

With the lists still existing forever, Discourse would need to be configured to 
accept email responses as well, from people emailing dev@ or user@, meaning a 
*bi-directional email gateway* will likely have to be written/integrated. (I 
very much doubt Infra will be willing to redirect dev@/user@ _directly_ into 
Discourse.)

Thus, the bottleneck on the proposal is going to be Infrastructure's desire to 
move ahead, as well as their ability to put resources on solving the 
integration issues (unless you're willing to directly volunteer to help code 
that up.)

Infra may, for instance, want to host Discourse themselves (if I recall 
correctly, it is self-hostable), and may find some friction between that and 
the nascent Pony Mail project that serves out lists.apache.org - if not 
technically, from human factors.

You should, at a bare minimum, familiarise yourself with 
https://lists.apache.org/list.html?dev@couchdb.apache.org and determine why it 
doesn't meet our needs. A bullet-point list would be prudent; Infra is bound to 
raise this as their first point.


I know its a big step away from what we're used to with our mailing lists,
but I think it would definitely open up our community.


I'm in support of the idea, but the devil's in the implementation details. Like 
our efforts with git, and Slack, someone is going to have to work together with 
Infra on this for a few months to make it reality. I really hope you're 
volunteering to step up to that role. I certainly don't have the time.


Cheers
Garren


-Joan


[1] https://forums.foundationdb.org/
[2] https://internals.rust-lang.org/

Re: [DISCUSS] moving email lists to Discourse

[Joan Touzet]

Hi Garren, thanks for thinking ahead on this one.

On 2020-03-12 10:32, Garren Smith wrote:

Hi All,

The CouchDB slack channel has been a real success with lots of people
asking for help and getting involved. The main issue is that it is not
searchable so we often get people asking the same questions over and over.
The user mailing list is great in that sense that if you have subscribed to
it you have a searchable list of questions and answers. However, it's
really not user-friendly and judging by the fact that it has very low user
participation I'm guessing most people prefer to use slack to ask questions.

I've been really impressed with how the FoundationDB forum[1] and the rust
internal forum work [2]. I find them easy to use and really encourage
participation.


I've been having trouble getting Discourse to send me email notification 
when someone follows up to my responses to a thread I didn't start. I 
think I've enabled the correct settings, but it's not acting as 
expected. Hrm.


I do know that Discourse has a full "mailing list mode," I just haven't 
wanted 100% of the email from FoundationDB's forum to end up in my 
inbox. (I *would* want that for user and dev@couchdb.a.o.)



I would like to propose that we move our user and dev
discussion to Discourse or a forum that works as well as Discourse. I think
that would make it really easy for users of CouchDB to look up answers to
questions and get involved in the development discussion.
I haven't checked yet, but I'm sure we could get all discourse threads to
automatically email back to the user and dev mailing list so that we still
fulfill our Apache requirements.


We'd for sure have to have everything land on the Apache CouchDB mailing 
lists as well as here to meet Apache rules and regulations. And, of 
course, Infrastructure is going to have to approve the move, possibly 
the Board as well.


With the lists still existing forever, Discourse would need to be 
configured to accept email responses as well, from people emailing dev@ 
or user@, meaning a *bi-directional email gateway* will likely have to 
be written/integrated. (I very much doubt Infra will be willing to 
redirect dev@/user@ _directly_ into Discourse.)


Thus, the bottleneck on the proposal is going to be Infrastructure's 
desire to move ahead, as well as their ability to put resources on 
solving the integration issues (unless you're willing to directly 
volunteer to help code that up.)


Infra may, for instance, want to host Discourse themselves (if I recall 
correctly, it is self-hostable), and may find some friction between that 
and the nascent Pony Mail project that serves out lists.apache.org - if 
not technically, from human factors.


You should, at a bare minimum, familiarise yourself with 
https://lists.apache.org/list.html?dev@couchdb.apache.org and determine 
why it doesn't meet our needs. A bullet-point list would be prudent; 
Infra is bound to raise this as their first point.



I know its a big step away from what we're used to with our mailing lists,
but I think it would definitely open up our community.


I'm in support of the idea, but the devil's in the implementation 
details. Like our efforts with git, and Slack, someone is going to have 
to work together with Infra on this for a few months to make it reality. 
I really hope you're volunteering to step up to that role. I certainly 
don't have the time.




Cheers
Garren


-Joan


[1] https://forums.foundationdb.org/
[2] https://internals.rust-lang.org/

Re: [DISCUSS] moving email lists to Discourse

[Paul Davis]

Ah, fair point!

On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 10:25 AM Jan Lehnardt  wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 12. Mar 2020, at 16:21, Paul Davis  wrote:
> >
> > I'm not against anything of that nature, but if memory serves the
> > email lists are dictated by ASF policy.
>
> If you remember when we did the GitHub transition, as long as we can make
> sure messages end up on a mailing list, we should be fine wrt the 
> requirements.
>
> Best
> Jan
> —
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 9:32 AM Garren Smith  wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi All,
> >>
> >> The CouchDB slack channel has been a real success with lots of people
> >> asking for help and getting involved. The main issue is that it is not
> >> searchable so we often get people asking the same questions over and over.
> >> The user mailing list is great in that sense that if you have subscribed to
> >> it you have a searchable list of questions and answers. However, it's
> >> really not user-friendly and judging by the fact that it has very low user
> >> participation I'm guessing most people prefer to use slack to ask 
> >> questions.
> >>
> >> I've been really impressed with how the FoundationDB forum[1] and the rust
> >> internal forum work [2]. I find them easy to use and really encourage
> >> participation. I would like to propose that we move our user and dev
> >> discussion to Discourse or a forum that works as well as Discourse. I think
> >> that would make it really easy for users of CouchDB to look up answers to
> >> questions and get involved in the development discussion.
> >>
> >> I haven't checked yet, but I'm sure we could get all discourse threads to
> >> automatically email back to the user and dev mailing list so that we still
> >> fulfill our Apache requirements.
> >>
> >> I know its a big step away from what we're used to with our mailing lists,
> >> but I think it would definitely open up our community.
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >> Garren
> >>
> >>
> >> [1] https://forums.foundationdb.org/
> >> [2] https://internals.rust-lang.org/
>

Re: [DISCUSS] moving email lists to Discourse

[Jan Lehnardt]

> On 12. Mar 2020, at 16:21, Paul Davis  wrote:
> 
> I'm not against anything of that nature, but if memory serves the
> email lists are dictated by ASF policy.

If you remember when we did the GitHub transition, as long as we can make
sure messages end up on a mailing list, we should be fine wrt the requirements.

Best
Jan
—
> 
> On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 9:32 AM Garren Smith  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi All,
>> 
>> The CouchDB slack channel has been a real success with lots of people
>> asking for help and getting involved. The main issue is that it is not
>> searchable so we often get people asking the same questions over and over.
>> The user mailing list is great in that sense that if you have subscribed to
>> it you have a searchable list of questions and answers. However, it's
>> really not user-friendly and judging by the fact that it has very low user
>> participation I'm guessing most people prefer to use slack to ask questions.
>> 
>> I've been really impressed with how the FoundationDB forum[1] and the rust
>> internal forum work [2]. I find them easy to use and really encourage
>> participation. I would like to propose that we move our user and dev
>> discussion to Discourse or a forum that works as well as Discourse. I think
>> that would make it really easy for users of CouchDB to look up answers to
>> questions and get involved in the development discussion.
>> 
>> I haven't checked yet, but I'm sure we could get all discourse threads to
>> automatically email back to the user and dev mailing list so that we still
>> fulfill our Apache requirements.
>> 
>> I know its a big step away from what we're used to with our mailing lists,
>> but I think it would definitely open up our community.
>> 
>> Cheers
>> Garren
>> 
>> 
>> [1] https://forums.foundationdb.org/
>> [2] https://internals.rust-lang.org/

Re: [DISCUSS] moving email lists to Discourse

[Paul Davis]

I'm not against anything of that nature, but if memory serves the
email lists are dictated by ASF policy.

On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 9:32 AM Garren Smith  wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> The CouchDB slack channel has been a real success with lots of people
> asking for help and getting involved. The main issue is that it is not
> searchable so we often get people asking the same questions over and over.
> The user mailing list is great in that sense that if you have subscribed to
> it you have a searchable list of questions and answers. However, it's
> really not user-friendly and judging by the fact that it has very low user
> participation I'm guessing most people prefer to use slack to ask questions.
>
> I've been really impressed with how the FoundationDB forum[1] and the rust
> internal forum work [2]. I find them easy to use and really encourage
> participation. I would like to propose that we move our user and dev
> discussion to Discourse or a forum that works as well as Discourse. I think
> that would make it really easy for users of CouchDB to look up answers to
> questions and get involved in the development discussion.
>
> I haven't checked yet, but I'm sure we could get all discourse threads to
> automatically email back to the user and dev mailing list so that we still
> fulfill our Apache requirements.
>
> I know its a big step away from what we're used to with our mailing lists,
> but I think it would definitely open up our community.
>
> Cheers
> Garren
>
>
> [1] https://forums.foundationdb.org/
> [2] https://internals.rust-lang.org/

[DISCUSS] moving email lists to Discourse

[Garren Smith]

Hi All,

The CouchDB slack channel has been a real success with lots of people
asking for help and getting involved. The main issue is that it is not
searchable so we often get people asking the same questions over and over.
The user mailing list is great in that sense that if you have subscribed to
it you have a searchable list of questions and answers. However, it's
really not user-friendly and judging by the fact that it has very low user
participation I'm guessing most people prefer to use slack to ask questions.

I've been really impressed with how the FoundationDB forum[1] and the rust
internal forum work [2]. I find them easy to use and really encourage
participation. I would like to propose that we move our user and dev
discussion to Discourse or a forum that works as well as Discourse. I think
that would make it really easy for users of CouchDB to look up answers to
questions and get involved in the development discussion.

I haven't checked yet, but I'm sure we could get all discourse threads to
automatically email back to the user and dev mailing list so that we still
fulfill our Apache requirements.

I know its a big step away from what we're used to with our mailing lists,
but I think it would definitely open up our community.

Cheers
Garren


[1] https://forums.foundationdb.org/
[2] https://internals.rust-lang.org/