On Thu, Nov 29, 2018 at 12:42 PM Nicolas Mailhot
wrote:
>
> Le jeudi 29 novembre 2018 à 10:56 -0500, Josh Boyer a écrit :
> >
> > Of the large number of packages that you maintain, how many of them
> > are critical to freeze at a specific version for a given Fedora
> > release? Possibly some,
Le jeudi 29 novembre 2018 à 10:56 -0500, Josh Boyer a écrit :
>
> Of the large number of packages that you maintain, how many of them
> are critical to freeze at a specific version for a given Fedora
> release? Possibly some, but I would think across the distribution it
> would not be a huge
On Thu, Nov 29, 2018 at 11:15 AM Neal Gompa wrote:
>
> On Thu, Nov 29, 2018 at 10:57 AM Josh Boyer wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 29, 2018 at 10:22 AM Paul Frields wrote:
> > >
> > > On Thu, Nov 29, 2018 at 4:47 AM Miroslav Suchý wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Dne 27. 11. 18 v 17:04 Josh Boyer napsal(a):
On Thu, Nov 29, 2018 at 10:57 AM Josh Boyer wrote:
>
> On Thu, Nov 29, 2018 at 10:22 AM Paul Frields wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 29, 2018 at 4:47 AM Miroslav Suchý wrote:
> > >
> > > Dne 27. 11. 18 v 17:04 Josh Boyer napsal(a):
> > > >> In other words, the "technical debt" we are trying to solve
On Thu, Nov 29, 2018 at 10:22 AM Paul Frields wrote:
>
> On Thu, Nov 29, 2018 at 4:47 AM Miroslav Suchý wrote:
> >
> > Dne 27. 11. 18 v 17:04 Josh Boyer napsal(a):
> > >> In other words, the "technical debt" we are trying to solve here is
> > >> not project wide and doesn't justify slowing down
On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 7:43 AM Fabio Valentini wrote:
> I think the kernel is a bad example here. It's exceedly stable across
> releases, so it's probably the one component that's least problematic
> to upgrade during a fedora release. The fedora kernel team is already
> doing that, and they are
On Thu, Nov 29, 2018 at 4:47 AM Miroslav Suchý wrote:
>
> Dne 27. 11. 18 v 17:04 Josh Boyer napsal(a):
> >> In other words, the "technical debt" we are trying to solve here is
> >> not project wide and doesn't justify slowing down the whole project
> >> permanently.
> > I completely disagree.
Dne 27. 11. 18 v 17:04 Josh Boyer napsal(a):
>> In other words, the "technical debt" we are trying to solve here is
>> not project wide and doesn't justify slowing down the whole project
>> permanently.
> I completely disagree. Our release process and tooling is built on
> heroism and tech debt.
On Wed, 28 Nov 2018 at 13:05, Josh Boyer wrote:
>
> On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 12:57 PM Stephen John Smoogen
> wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, 28 Nov 2018 at 12:47, Owen Taylor wrote:
> > >
> > > On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 12:40 PM Stephen John Smoogen
> > > wrote:
> > > > On Wed, 28 Nov 2018 at 11:37,
On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 12:57 PM Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
>
> On Wed, 28 Nov 2018 at 12:47, Owen Taylor wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 12:40 PM Stephen John Smoogen
> > wrote:
> > > On Wed, 28 Nov 2018 at 11:37, Owen Taylor wrote:
> >
> > > > Fedora needs to be an operating system
On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 12:47 PM Owen Taylor wrote:
>
> On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 12:40 PM Stephen John Smoogen
> wrote:
> > On Wed, 28 Nov 2018 at 11:37, Owen Taylor wrote:
>
> > > Fedora needs to be an operating system provider, not just an operating
> > > system toolbox provider.
> >
> > I
On Wed, 28 Nov 2018 at 12:47, Owen Taylor wrote:
>
> On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 12:40 PM Stephen John Smoogen
> wrote:
> > On Wed, 28 Nov 2018 at 11:37, Owen Taylor wrote:
>
> > > Fedora needs to be an operating system provider, not just an operating
> > > system toolbox provider.
> >
> > I feel
On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 12:40 PM Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Nov 2018 at 11:37, Owen Taylor wrote:
> > Fedora needs to be an operating system provider, not just an operating
> > system toolbox provider.
>
> I feel like we have been saying this for 15+ years even before Fedora
>
On Wed, 28 Nov 2018 at 11:37, Owen Taylor wrote:
>
> On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 3:07 AM Brian (bex) Exelbierd
> wrote:
>
> > I'd push Brendans' concept further and suggest that we try to
> > eliminate as many of the compilers, libraries and core system tools as
> > possible from this bootable-base
I totally agree with Paul and Kevin.
I want to see a faster release cycle (probably rolling release) and shorter
processes to get a release out.
On Tue, Nov 27, 2018 at 3:02 PM Kevin Fenzi wrote:
> I agree with the folks in this subthread, but I think we are going to
> have to look at
On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 3:07 AM Brian (bex) Exelbierd
wrote:
> I think that Fedora's role as an innovater in the OS space means we
> should be aggressively exploring this. Rolling Releases, Tech-Driven
> Releases and Time-Based Releases all have well known positives and
> negatives. All of the
On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 1:49 PM Brian (bex) Exelbierd
wrote:
>
> On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 1:31 PM Igor Gnatenko
> wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 1:14 PM Brian (bex) Exelbierd
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 12:12 PM Peter Robinson
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Nov
On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 1:07 PM Brian (bex) Exelbierd
wrote:
>
> On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 12:12 PM Peter Robinson wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 8:07 AM Brian (bex) Exelbierd
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 4:15 AM Brendan Conoboy wrote:
> > > > Paul's proposal was
On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 1:31 PM Igor Gnatenko
wrote:
>
> On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 1:14 PM Brian (bex) Exelbierd
> wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 12:12 PM Peter Robinson
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 8:07 AM Brian (bex) Exelbierd
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Nov
On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 1:14 PM Brian (bex) Exelbierd
wrote:
>
> On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 12:12 PM Peter Robinson wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 8:07 AM Brian (bex) Exelbierd
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 4:15 AM Brendan Conoboy wrote:
> > > > Paul's proposal was
On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 12:12 PM Peter Robinson wrote:
>
> On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 8:07 AM Brian (bex) Exelbierd
> wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 4:15 AM Brendan Conoboy wrote:
> > > Paul's proposal was definitely a one-time pause for the reasons you
> > > state. He requested we
On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 8:07 AM Brian (bex) Exelbierd
wrote:
>
> On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 4:15 AM Brendan Conoboy wrote:
> > Paul's proposal was definitely a one-time pause for the reasons you
> > state. He requested we follow-up with additional questions and
> > suggestions so I'm questioning
On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 4:15 AM Brendan Conoboy wrote:
> Paul's proposal was definitely a one-time pause for the reasons you
> state. He requested we follow-up with additional questions and
> suggestions so I'm questioning and suggesting taking it a step
> further. We talk about rolling
On 11/28/18 1:32 AM, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
I agree with the folks in this subthread, but I think we are going to
have to look at 'redesigning' things more than just 'optimizing'.
+1. At the same time, we should also ensure that Devel,QE,Infra,RelEng..
all equal stake holders and are hand in
On 11/27/18 11:39 AM, Owen Taylor wrote:
We can definitely talk about whether moving to a slower cadence for
certain parts of the base platform. But people don't judge Fedora on
how beautifully we maintain glibc and gcc - they mostly judge it by
installing it on a laptop and seeing how well it
On 11/27/2018 10:39 AM, Owen Taylor wrote:
We can definitely talk about whether moving to a slower cadence for
certain parts of the base platform. But people don't judge Fedora on
how beautifully we maintain glibc and gcc - they mostly judge it by
installing it on a laptop and seeing how well it
I agree with the folks in this subthread, but I think we are going to
have to look at 'redesigning' things more than just 'optimizing'.
ie, collect all our inputs and outputs and things we need to do in the
process and figure out how to make it modular (no relation) so we can
look at just a
On Tue, Nov 27, 2018 at 1:40 PM Owen Taylor wrote:
>
> We can definitely talk about whether moving to a slower cadence for
> certain parts of the base platform. But people don't judge Fedora on
> how beautifully we maintain glibc and gcc - they mostly judge it by
> installing it on a laptop and
On Tue, Nov 27, 2018 at 12:19 PM Josh Boyer wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 27, 2018 at 11:21 AM Owen Taylor wrote:
> > On Tue, Nov 27, 2018 at 11:05 AM Josh Boyer
> > wrote:
[...snip...]
> > > I completely disagree. Our release process and tooling is built on
> > > heroism and tech debt. At some
We can definitely talk about whether moving to a slower cadence for
certain parts of the base platform. But people don't judge Fedora on
how beautifully we maintain glibc and gcc - they mostly judge it by
installing it on a laptop and seeing how well it works. And it doesn't
really matter how
On 11/27/18 10:13 AM, Josh Boyer wrote:
On Tue, Nov 27, 2018 at 11:21 AM Owen Taylor wrote:
On Tue, Nov 27, 2018 at 11:05 AM Josh Boyer wrote:
On Tue, Nov 27, 2018 at 10:13 AM Owen Taylor wrote:
But for the next thousand or so Fedora developers, the release cycle
is actually not a big
On 11/27/18 7:54 AM, Ben Cotton wrote:
On Tue, Nov 27, 2018 at 8:21 AM Justin Forbes wrote:
Long cycles have been done before, and will be done again, it has been
4 or 5 years since the last one. I think skipping to a yearly cadence
for every release isn't such a great idea. There are
On Tue, Nov 27, 2018 at 11:21 AM Owen Taylor wrote:
>
> On Tue, Nov 27, 2018 at 11:05 AM Josh Boyer wrote:
> > On Tue, Nov 27, 2018 at 10:13 AM Owen Taylor wrote:
> > > But for the next thousand or so Fedora developers, the release cycle
> > > is actually not a big deal - not something that
On Tue, 27 Nov 2018 at 17:23, Owen Taylor wrote:
>
> On Tue, Nov 27, 2018 at 11:05 AM Josh Boyer wrote:
> > On Tue, Nov 27, 2018 at 10:13 AM Owen Taylor wrote:
> > > But for the next thousand or so Fedora developers, the release cycle
> > > is actually not a big deal - not something that takes
On Tue, Nov 27, 2018 at 11:05 AM Josh Boyer wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 27, 2018 at 10:13 AM Owen Taylor wrote:
> > But for the next thousand or so Fedora developers, the release cycle
> > is actually not a big deal - not something that takes much of their
> > time - and it gives them a regular place
On Tue, Nov 27, 2018 at 10:13 AM Owen Taylor wrote:
>
> On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 9:26 PM Brendan Conoboy wrote:>
> > On 11/16/18 7:50 AM, Paul Frields wrote:
> > [snip]
> > > We should skip the F31 release cycle and leave F30 in place longer in
> > > order to focus on improving the tooling and
On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 9:26 PM Brendan Conoboy wrote:>
> On 11/16/18 7:50 AM, Paul Frields wrote:
> [snip]
> > We should skip the F31 release cycle and leave F30 in place longer in
> > order to focus on improving the tooling and testing changes. These
> > tooling changes will improve the overall
On Tue, Nov 27, 2018 at 8:21 AM Justin Forbes wrote:
>
> Long cycles have been done before, and will be done again, it has been
> 4 or 5 years since the last one. I think skipping to a yearly cadence
> for every release isn't such a great idea. There are benefits to the
> cadence we have, but I
On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 8:26 PM Brendan Conoboy wrote:
>
> On 11/16/18 7:50 AM, Paul Frields wrote:
> [snip]
> > We should skip the F31 release cycle and leave F30 in place longer in
> > order to focus on improving the tooling and testing changes. These
> > tooling changes will improve the
On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 9:27 PM Brendan Conoboy wrote:
>
> On 11/16/18 7:50 AM, Paul Frields wrote:
> [snip]
> > We should skip the F31 release cycle and leave F30 in place longer in
> > order to focus on improving the tooling and testing changes. These
> > tooling changes will improve the
On Tue, Nov 27, 2018 at 9:39 AM Ralf Corsepius wrote:
>
> On 11/27/18 9:16 AM, Igor Gnatenko wrote:
> > Because if we keep "no breaking updates in stable" policy, then Fedora
> > won't be "first anymore".
>
> Users perceive your "first" as unstable and unreliable. There are plenty
> of examples
On 11/27/18 9:16 AM, Igor Gnatenko wrote:
Because if we keep "no breaking updates in stable" policy, then Fedora
won't be "first anymore".
Users perceive your "first" as unstable and unreliable. There are plenty
of examples of how e.g. FC30 was broken and still is.
One such example is you
Because if we keep "no breaking updates in stable" policy, then Fedora
won't be "first anymore". You can do this only if rawhide will be more
popular between people.
On Tue, Nov 27, 2018, 03:34 Brendan Conoboy On 11/16/18 7:50 AM, Paul Frields wrote:
> [snip]
> > We should skip the F31 release
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