All maven RPM builds no longer possible

[Graham Leggett via devel]

Hi all,

I just tried to start from "probably simplest spec file possible” as described 
below in order to package a maven artefact properly as an RPM:

https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/java-packaging-howto/packaging_maven_project/

The build failed because the maven-javadoc-plugin package no longer exists, 
which is core to building the javadoc package required by the spec. I have 
since been down a dependency hell rabbithole to try and get something to work, 
with no luck to date.

Googling has revealed that java code has been in various states of brokenness 
for a while, but we’re at a point where it isn’t possible to build any package 
using the maven macros in an RPM spec file at all. Are people aware things are 
this broken?

Regards,
Graham
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Request for help with sponsor: retry

[Graham Leggett via devel]

Hi all,

I’ve had a review of the retry tool at 
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2017119, but I need help with a 
sponsor.

Happy to try review some other packages in return, but will need a bit of hand 
holding.

Regards,
Graham
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Re: This is bad, was Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: systemd-resolved

[Graham Leggett]

On 29 Sep 2020, at 23:44, Michael Catanzaro  wrote:

> This is either a very strange misunderstanding, or trolling. I will assume 
> positive intent. Internet RFCs are not regulatory requirements. If you're 
> aware of some government regulation that requires us to forward RRSEC 
> records, I would be very surprised, but please do let us know.

Regulations like the GDPR exist, and ignorance of them is not a defence.

I am required by these regulations and many other regulations in multiple 
jurisdictions to make sure my users comply. If you have gone out of your way to 
break secure operation on Fedora, we will have to ban the use of Fedora by our 
users. I do not want to do that.

As I said, this is not a technical discussion. You need to defer this to 
compliance people, who I predict will simply tell you “comply”.

Regards,
Graham
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Re: This is bad, was Re: Fedora 33 System-Wide Change proposal: systemd-resolved

[Graham Leggett]

On 29 Sep 2020, at 22:04, Michael Catanzaro  wrote:

> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 4:51 pm, Petr Menšík  wrote:
>> Anyway, we might forgive working dnssec validation. What we cannot
>> forgive is lack of DNSSEC information passtrough in 2020.
> 
> I agree this should be fixed. See 
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1879028.
> 
> However, since this only matters for specialized server deployments, and will 
> not matter for desktop usage or most server deployments, and since the 
> workaround is very easy (just edit /etc/resolv.conf) it's really extreme to 
> suggest it should be a release blocker when we have one week to go before 
> final freeze. That timeframe is way too tight.

To step in here, regulatory compliance is a non optional requirement around the 
world.

Regulatory compliance applies to everybody in a jurisdiction, there is no such 
thing as a “specialized deployment” or environments where it “will not matter”. 
Compliance doesn’t care about an arbitrary freeze.

This is not a technical decision.

Regards,
Graham
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Re: Gitlab Ask Me Anything - Sept 10th, 13:30 UTC

[Graham Leggett]

On 05 Sep 2020, at 17:40, Matthew Miller  wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 04, 2020 at 05:14:21PM -0700, John M. Harris Jr wrote:
>> That's an interesting choice. Isn't it a bit of a waste to put all of the 
>> resources into Pagure for so long, only to jump over to GitLab?
> 
> This is called the "sunk cost fallacy”.

In business we call this “a colossal waste of shareholder’s money”.

> There may be plenty of reasons to
> keep with Pagure, but "we spent so much on it already" shouldn't be one. We
> need to look at where we are now and the best choice at this point.

“We need”.

Who is we, and describe the need?

Regards,
Graham
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Re: Ditch RPM in favor of DPKG

[Graham Leggett]

On 19 Feb 2019, at 12:03, Dridi Boukelmoune  wrote:

> Greetings packagers,
> 
> I know how important RPM is to the Fedora Project, but it breaks
> everything downstream and we'd be better off using DPKG as we should
> have from day one.

DPKG solved the packaging problem, but was particularly inelegant doing so, 
primary because the goal at the time was to move from nothing to something. RPM 
was able to learn from the first attempt, and is far simpler and more robust.

> A bit of background here: I build both RPMs and DEBs for $DAYJOB and
> until recently my workflow was quite painful because I needed extra steps
> between git checkout and git push that involves a VM, because what we
> ship as apt is in reality apt-rpm.

If I’m understanding you correctly are you trying to being Debian packages on a 
Fedora system?

I’m not seeing how a need like this justifies reengineering an entire software 
ecosystem.

Regards,
Graham
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Re: Attention Gmail users, please turn off HTML mail

[Graham Leggett]

On 04 Oct 2018, at 23:32, Matthew Miller  wrote:

> The fact is, the world has moved away from quoted mail with inline replies.
> Top posting rules basically everywhere except hold-out old-school mailing
> lists. Gmail, both on the web and _especially_ on mobile, makes it almost
> impossible to do quoting and inline replies properly. I can't imagine other
> big consumer email providers are much better.

Top posting rules where people talk at each other. This is common in the 
corporate world where email is treated like letter writing.

When people are having a conversation with each other, you reply like this. In 
the corporate world, I often see people struggle putting their responses in red 
text, or in caps, instead of quoting properly. Quoting properly isn’t “old 
school” or “hold out”, it’s basic courtesy.

I don’t find quoting on mobile particularly difficult (speaking for iPhone).

Regards,
Graham
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Re: Nonresponsive maintainer: Björn Esser (besser82)

[Graham Leggett]

On 16 Aug 2018, at 13:28, Miro Hrončok  wrote:

> Björn Esser (besser82) is not responsive.
> 
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1610811

It’s August, I’m guessing they’re on a well deserved holiday.

> Anyone knows how to contact the maintainer?

Definitely not like this:

"Do something now! (This is the unfriendly reminder.)”

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1605947#c10

Regards,
Graham
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Re: Proposal: Reduce *-devel packages dependencies on other unneeded *-devel packages

[Graham Leggett]

On 11 Aug 2018, at 20:58, Robert Marcano  wrote:

> Current *-devel packages tend to pull a lot of dependencies, probably to make 
> developers life easier, but I think some of them are not needed.

Do you think they’re not needed, or are you sure they’re not needed?

Regards,
Graham
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Re: Removal of sln

[Graham Leggett]

On 16 Feb 2018, at 11:53 PM, Richard W.M. Jones  wrote:

> I also don't think rather fundamental, useful and old tools like this
> should be removed without discussion.

+1.

While the foundations for your house might be old, taking a sledgehammer to 
those foundations without completely assessing what you’re doing will cause the 
house to fall down.

Regards,
Graham
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Re: Wyland is a disaster

[Graham Leggett]

On 20 Jan 2018, at 8:24 PM, Alec Leamas  wrote:

>>  I'm sorry, but wyland is a disaster for me.  I do work on lots
>> of different software platforms, and things are just not working well. 
>> They kind-of-work, which is the really worst condition one can have. 
> 
> For me, this looks more like a support issue and as such doesn't not
> belong to this development list. I suggest that you:

I disagree, this looks like an overarching observation of interest to the 
development community. Anyone else seen this as a pattern?

Regards,
Graham
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Re: What to I have to do....

[Graham Leggett]

On 12 Dec 2017, at 2:44 PM, Philip Kovacs  wrote:
> 
> >Artistic (volatile) temperament” is just a euphemistic way of saying 
> >“engages in unchecked abusive behaviour toward their peers”, and no member 
> >of the community should be expected to bend over backwards to >tolerate this 
> >or to turn a blind eye to it.
> 
> You completely, utterly and totally misread the meaning and spirit of what I 
> said.  
> 
> To reiterate, if the maintainer is responsive, my opinion is that is a 
> courtesy to notify him/her. 
>  
> That's all.  Some people are more attached and involved with their code and 
> would appreciate 
> the gesture. 

What you’re describing is passive aggressive behaviour, and this too is 
unacceptable.

It is not fair on people who do work in good faith to be scared of having 
sudden abuse flung at them by collaborators who refuse to abide by the 
established rules, and impose rules of their own. To be clear, none of what you 
propose is reasonable or acceptable.

> No need to imagine that the maintainer is demonstrating "unchecked abusive 
> behavior."  
> 
> For Pete's sake.  

As I made clear in another message, the message that started this thread is a 
clear example of unchecked abusive behaviour. I am calling this behaviour out 
explicitly as unacceptable in an open source community.

Regards,
Graham
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Re: What to I have to do....

[Graham Leggett]

On 09 Dec 2017, at 8:21 PM, Philip Kovacs  wrote:

> I am opposed to allowing PP unfettered access to projects in which the 
> maintainer(s) 
> are responsive.  It's common for developers to have artistic (volatile) 
> temperaments , 
> like a painter who paints on canvas owned by someone else.

We need to nip this kind of thing in the bud.

“Artistic (volatile) temperament” is just a euphemistic way of saying “engages 
in unchecked abusive behaviour toward their peers”, and no member of the 
community should be expected to bend over backwards to tolerate this or to turn 
a blind eye to it.

Even more specifically nobody at Fedora should be forced to ask special 
permission from or give special notification to specific individuals over and 
above the established procedures before doing their work. Their commit 
privileges / karma / following the established procedure give them that 
permission.

If someone makes a change to your code, start with the premise that the person 
who made the change did so in good faith, and respond appropriately from there.

Regards,
Graham
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Re: What to I have to do....

[Graham Leggett]

On 07 Dec 2017, at 5:31 PM, Steve Dickson  wrote:

> Where committed to the master branch and not to any other
> branch make the maintenance of those branches a pain 
> because I can no longer cherry-pick between branches.
> I have to make multiple commits to multiple branches
> which sucks... Something random people do not understand!

In this case, we have the needs of the Fedora project (this change) stacked up 
against your needs (your reluctance to perform a task).

The needs of Fedora must win in this case.

The Fedora project, as with all collaborative open source projects, succeeds 
when the collaborators collaborate. The Fedora project fails when people carve 
out a niche for themselves and refuse to play nice with others within that 
niche.

Given your email address, I am going to assume you’re paid by you’re employer 
to work on Fedora, and are not working on Fedora by your own volition. This is 
the time when your mentor should step in set some of the ground rules for how 
you interact with a community.

When you work on Fedora you’re working on a shared codebase that isn’t yours. 
Other people will make changes to code you’ve worked on, and they are not only 
allowed to do that, and they should be actively encouraged to do that, and be 
thanked for their work.

As an end user of Fedora, I am grateful for the work done, including this 
change, and thank the person who made the change to have taken the time to do 
it.

Regards,
Graham
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Re: floppy-support being retired (was: Retiring Packages with Broken Dependencies in branched (2017-06-26))

[Graham Leggett]

On 28 Jun 2017, at 11:09 AM, Peter Robinson  wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 10:03 AM, Björn Persson  wrote:
>> t...@fedoraproject.org wrote:
>>> floppy-support bruno  162 weeks ago
>> 
>> So are floppies now definitely a thing of the past according to Fedora?
> 
> Well they definitely are a thing of the past, there's no doubt there,
> the question is whether they are still used :-) I would argue printers
> are a thing of the past but sadly there's no such thing as a paperless
> office yet.

How hard do we want to make things with people with legacy technology? While 
they may not be actively used, they do still exist.

Regards,
Graham
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Re: F26 System Wide Change: OpenSSL 1.1.0

[Graham Leggett]

On 29 Sep 2016, at 08:51, Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos  wrote:

> I'd like to underline the part _preferrably the version recommended by
> upstream_ of Packaging:CryptoPolicies. I believe it is best for us to
> use the code that upstream primarily considers best for the
> application.

+1.

Regards,
Graham
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Re: F26 System Wide Change: OpenSSL 1.1.0

[Graham Leggett]

On 28 Sep 2016, at 4:13 PM, Tomasz Kłoczko  wrote:

> BTW openssl changes.

> It would be good to form kind of official guidline about using those 
> alternative libraries and start pushing to use only one.

This is not always possible.

I spent a long time debugging 389ds on Ubuntu because someone had arbitrarily 
decided to switch the LDAP client library from NSS to gnutls. This in turn 
broke 389ds server replication, which embeds both the server code (depending on 
NSS) and client code (depending on gnutls) into the same code and then trying 
to use the same configuration for both of them. Our solution was to switch to 
CentOS.

Regards,
Graham
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Self Introduction: Graham Leggett

[Graham Leggett]

Hi all,

Doing the obligatory introduction :)

I am a member of the Apache Software Foundation, and on the PMCs of the httpd 
and apr projects where amongst other things I maintain the out-of-the-box RPM 
packaging for both projects. I would like to see more of the Apache module 
ecosystem easily available to people and plan to contribute packaging for them 
in the future.

Before kicking off the httpd modules and to get some experience in the process 
I’m starting with a submission of tarmux at 
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1338537.

Regards,
Graham
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