Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
On Apr 20, 2012 5:34 PM, Matej Cepl mc...@redhat.com wrote: On 20.4.2012 18:09, Ralf Corsepius wrote: Never. Nobody uses the code names. It's a waste of time and choosing names like Beefy Miracle is a good way of making the distro look a whole lot less professional. Well, as far as I can tell, many Ubuntu and Debian users prefer to call their release by name. Yes, and I wonder why Fedora users just don't it. Nobody knows why, either we have too stupid names, or we are too geeky, or something. And I have to admit, that although my first Debian was potato and I have switched to Fedora just before etch (and I have no idea, what was the number of these releases), I have never felt the smallest inclination to call my first Fedora distro anything else than Fedora Core 6. No one knows why? There is the obvious effect of inertia from the fact that there is a LONG history of referring to releases by version number going all the way back to Red Hat Linux 2.0 in 1995. (Before that, nearby holidays were used...) And so far there has been zero PR effort to change this well established practice. As I remember it, the fact that there even was a code name was not widely advertised until well into the Fedora releases. I'm pretty sure that's the reason. (User since RHL 5.2, on an Alpha Multia) -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
On 25/04/12 03:46, Brendan Jones wrote: I fully agree. We need to help the design team out, Agree, give ideas Drop the name but lets vote on a theme No, I think it should all be left to the design them. (with advice from legal, if necessary) Not in a let them do the work, but more of a the design team are the ones that understand design and concept. Give them the latitude to do what they know. When I tried college!. You could only include sources that were peer reviewed. Not stuff that had been voted on by x number of people in the street. Give the design team the freedom they need. Those with a background in design, step up. Help them out, don't complain after the fact. But for arthritis, I would be with them (my excuse, and sticking to it). -- Regards, Frank Jack of all, fubars -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 9:05 AM, Frank Murphy frankl...@gmail.com wrote: On 25/04/12 03:46, Brendan Jones wrote: I fully agree. We need to help the design team out, Agree, give ideas Drop the name but lets vote on a theme No, I think it should all be left to the design them. (with advice from legal, if necessary) Not in a let them do the work, but more of a the design team are the ones that understand design and concept. Give them the latitude to do what they know. When I tried college!. You could only include sources that were peer reviewed. Not stuff that had been voted on by x number of people in the street. Give the design team the freedom they need. Those with a background in design, step up. Help them out, don't complain after the fact. But for arthritis, I would be with them (my excuse, and sticking to it). As Mairin told us, the design team don't need a theme to add a nice touch to our favorite distro! We should let them work with their skills -- Kévin Raymond (shaiton) GPG-Key: A5BCB3A2 -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
Michael Cronenworth wrote: It would be nice to have a third option: -Change release names to release theme. We don't really need a name (IMO), but the theme adds a nice touch. A colour would be a nice clear release theme. You could even increment the first letter of the colour for each subsequent release. e.g. Amaranth - Blue - Celadon - ... See e.g http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_colors There shouldn't be any major internationalisation issues, except for unlucky colours, which are plain superstition. It would be easy to make a theme which included that colour somewhere. Maybe someone else uses this scheme, however. Jeremy -- http://jeremysanders.net/ -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Jeremy Sanders jer...@jeremysanders.net wrote: Amaranth - Blue - Celadon - ... See e.g http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_colors There shouldn't be any major internationalisation issues, Well, two out of the three have no equivalent in Czech language. That doesn't prevent us from using the English name, but explaining what Beefy Miracle means would be easier than Celadon. Mirek -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Jeremy Sanders jer...@jeremysanders.net wrote: Michael Cronenworth wrote: It would be nice to have a third option: -Change release names to release theme. We don't really need a name (IMO), but the theme adds a nice touch. A colour would be a nice clear release theme. You could even increment the first letter of the colour for each subsequent release. e.g. Amaranth - Blue - Celadon - ... See e.g http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_colors There shouldn't be any major internationalisation issues, except for unlucky colours, which are plain superstition. It would be easy to make a theme which included that colour somewhere. Maybe someone else uses this scheme, however. Jeremy -- http://jeremysanders.net/ Many Linux distributions are identified by a color. I would personally hate to have a purple, green or orange background… -- Kévin Raymond (shaiton) GPG-Key: A5BCB3A2 -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
Kévin Raymond wrote: Many Linux distributions are identified by a color. I would personally hate to have a purple, green or orange background… I wouldn't use the colour as the basis of the whole theme, but use it in a tasteful manner in highlights, etc. Jeremy -- http://jeremysanders.net/ -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 4:09 AM, Kévin Raymond shai...@fedoraproject.org wrote: On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Jeremy Sanders jer...@jeremysanders.net wrote: Michael Cronenworth wrote: It would be nice to have a third option: -Change release names to release theme. We don't really need a name (IMO), but the theme adds a nice touch. A colour would be a nice clear release theme. You could even increment the first letter of the colour for each subsequent release. e.g. Amaranth - Blue - Celadon - ... See e.g http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_colors There shouldn't be any major internationalisation issues, except for unlucky colours, which are plain superstition. It would be easy to make a theme which included that colour somewhere. Maybe someone else uses this scheme, however. Jeremy -- http://jeremysanders.net/ Many Linux distributions are identified by a color. I would personally hate to have a purple, green or orange background… So are we, blue. -J -- Kévin Raymond (shaiton) GPG-Key: A5BCB3A2 -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- http://cecinestpasunefromage.wordpress.com/ in your fear, seek only peace in your fear, seek only love -d. bowie -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
On 04/24/2012 05:14 AM, Miroslav Suchý wrote: I can keep only 3-5last releases in my poor head. Then just *don't*. F14 is the past. Let it go. -- Peter -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
On 25.4.2012 15:05, Peter Jones wrote: On 04/24/2012 05:14 AM, Miroslav Suchý wrote: I can keep only 3-5last releases in my poor head. Then just *don't*. F14 is the past. Let it go. Tell it to Mythdora which is based on Fedora Cambridge. Or RaspberryPi remix which is based on Fedora Laughlin. And many others. Fedora is not isolated world. Mirek -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 2:35 PM, Miroslav Suchy msu...@redhat.com wrote: On 25.4.2012 15:05, Peter Jones wrote: On 04/24/2012 05:14 AM, Miroslav Suchý wrote: I can keep only 3-5last releases in my poor head. Then just *don't*. F14 is the past. Let it go. Tell it to Mythdora which is based on Fedora Cambridge. Or RaspberryPi remix which is based on Fedora Laughlin. There will be a remix for the Raspbery Pi based on F-17 very shortly. F-17 is the first ARM release that we've caught up post the bringup of a completely new 2nd ARM platform. Peter -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
On Tue, 2012-04-24 at 13:59 +0100, Ian Malone wrote: On 23 April 2012 14:06, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: I'm not against release names because some people are supposed to have been offended by the words 'Beefy Miracle' I don't know about offended, it just sounds silly. Some who follow a religion which venerates the cow have asserted that they find the name offensive, apparently -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
On 25/04/12 17:51, Adam Williamson wrote: which venerates the cow Ah, now Adam, As bad as she is you can't be calling anyone a cow ;) -- Regards, Frank Jack of all, fubars -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
On Wed, 2012-04-25 at 18:58 +0100, Frank Murphy wrote: On 25/04/12 17:51, Adam Williamson wrote: which venerates the cow Ah, now Adam, As bad as she is you can't be calling anyone a cow ;) Er...wha? -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
On 25/04/12 19:25, Adam Williamson wrote: On Wed, 2012-04-25 at 18:58 +0100, Frank Murphy wrote: On 25/04/12 17:51, Adam Williamson wrote: which venerates the cow Ah, now Adam, As bad as she is you can't be calling anyone a cow ;) Er...wha? I thought you were calling the cow a cow. Which in some western cultures is a derogatory term. So you shouldn't call a cow a cow. -- Regards, Frank Jack of all, fubars -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
On Wed, 2012-04-25 at 19:37 +0100, Frank Murphy wrote: On 25/04/12 19:25, Adam Williamson wrote: On Wed, 2012-04-25 at 18:58 +0100, Frank Murphy wrote: On 25/04/12 17:51, Adam Williamson wrote: which venerates the cow Ah, now Adam, As bad as she is you can't be calling anyone a cow ;) Er...wha? I thought you were calling the cow a cow. Which in some western cultures is a derogatory term. So you shouldn't call a cow a cow. I...no, I was referring to cows. You know. The things which have four legs, go moo, and dispense tasty, tasty milk. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
OT Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
On 25/04/12 19:43, Adam Williamson wrote: I...no, I was referring to cows. You know. The things which have four legs, go moo, and dispense tasty, tasty milk. Ah right, we call it the fridge. Goes rrr every so often. -- Regards, Frank Jack of all, fubars -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: OT Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 1:48 PM, Frank Murphy frankl...@gmail.com wrote: On 25/04/12 19:43, Adam Williamson wrote: I...no, I was referring to cows. You know. The things which have four legs, go moo, and dispense tasty, tasty milk. Ah right, we call it the fridge. Goes rrr every so often. I have both milk and rum in my fridge, but I still call it my fridge. -J -- Regards, Frank Jack of all, fubars -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- http://cecinestpasunefromage.wordpress.com/ in your fear, seek only peace in your fear, seek only love -d. bowie -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
On 04/21/2012 12:33 AM, Matej Cepl wrote: Yes, and I wonder why Fedora users just don't it. Nobody knows why, either we have too stupid names, or we are too geeky, or something. And I have to admit, that although my first Debian was potato and I have switched to Fedora just before etch (and I have no idea, what was the number of these releases), I have never felt the smallest inclination to call my first Fedora distro anything else than Fedora Core 6. Speaking about myself: because Fedora change too often. Lets take last 3 Debian releases (etch, lenny, squeeze) and you are in year 2007. For the same range you have eleven Fedora releases. That is too much. I can keep only 3-5 last releases in my poor head. So while I can distinguish age of Etch and Lenny, I could not do that for Moonshine and Sulphur. But I can do that for Fedora 7 and Fedora 9. -- Miroslav Suchy Red Hat Satellite Engineering -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
On 23 April 2012 14:06, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: I'm not against release names because some people are supposed to have been offended by the words 'Beefy Miracle' I don't know about offended, it just sounds silly. Maybe it's a UK/US thing, or that it started as a RedHat in-joke, but to this British-English speaker 'Beefy Miracle' sounds like a derogatory term for a body builder, or perhaps an unsuccessful boxer. Suggestion: F18 should also have a ridiculous name, this way F19 can't and after that no two consecutive Fedora releases could have rubbish names in future. More practically, the problem with names in Fedora is that they're selected and voted on with little connection to anything else, for all the other code-name systems mentioned the name is chosen by fiat. There may be some development team involvement, but not the openness of inviting the entire Fedora community to suggest and vote, which will throw up the occasional absurdity due to the small group of people who care enough to vote. Maybe selection could be limited to the design team as the name has the largest impact on their activities and they may be more motivated to be thoughtful about it. -- imalone http://ibmalone.blogspot.co.uk -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
On 24/04/12 13:59, Ian Malone wrote: More practically, the problem with names in Fedora is that they're selected and voted on with little connection to anything else, . I think the real problem, offended people aside. Is nobody uses the names to refer to a fedora release. Witin @fpo lists its f15,f16, etc.. Outside any Fedora related list it's Fedora N (where N is a number) If names are voted to be kept, be pragmatic. Release: Fedora 18 (as an example) Release Name: Fedora Eighteen Using Google translate: Chinese Fedora 十八 Finnish: Fedora Vastanneista Dutch: Fedora achttien French: Fedora Dix-huit German: Fedora achtzehn Japanese: Fedora 18個 Hence there is a name to go with a release. As an English speaker in Ireland, Beefy Miracle conjures up human reproduction But, it certainly doesn't offend me. Sure, my kids call me Tubby. At 24 stone, guess what I am. != Slimmer of the year -- Regards, Frank Jack of all, fubars -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
My two bits: The users don't really care what we call the release. Heck, all I go by is the number. I use this distro rather than he others for the amount of tools we have at the command line, and it's not a far stretch to believe that others do as well. Some might call me a tech-geek; I love the power we have over the hard drive that I have never found in he other distro's. I could care less about the name we give the version. I'm not in it for the name. I hope this helps. Richard -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
On 04/20/2012 05:00 AM, Michael Cronenworth wrote: On 04/19/2012 07:04 PM, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: This cycle, the Board is also asking contributors to let us know if we should continue to have release names for future Fedora releases. Even though the interface is the same, this portion is intended to be a poll rather than a straight up vote. The Fedora Board will look at the answers to determine if enough contributors value continuing to create release names to make it worthwhile in the future. If it does seem desirable, the Board will likely look into forming a working group to come up with a new method for creating release names for future releases. It would be nice to have a third option: -Change release names to release theme. We don't really need a name (IMO), but the theme adds a nice touch. I fully agree. We need to help the design team out, and trying to tie it to the previous release is a bit overbearing in my opinion. What do you do with a beefy miracle, there's not much room to move. Drop the name but lets vote on a theme -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
On Fri, 2012-04-20 at 09:58 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote: Why isn't adding a link to an explanation to avoid misunderstandings originating from conotations sufficient anymore? This is at least what had been done in the past. 'sufficient' to what purpose? I'm not against release names because some people are supposed to have been offended by the words 'Beefy Miracle', I'm against release names because they're usually a giant waste of everyone's time: almost no-one ever remembers them, or refers to Fedora releases by their names, so we're going through the time of whichever poor sod has to co-ordinate the naming process, and of the Red Hat legal team in vetting a giant pile of absurd suggestions, for no decent reason at all. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
On Sat, 2012-04-21 at 00:33 +0200, Matej Cepl wrote: On 20.4.2012 18:09, Ralf Corsepius wrote: Never. Nobody uses the code names. It's a waste of time and choosing names like Beefy Miracle is a good way of making the distro look a whole lot less professional. Well, as far as I can tell, many Ubuntu and Debian users prefer to call their release by name. Yes, and I wonder why Fedora users just don't it. Nobody knows why, I thought Przemek's explanation (upthread a couple of posts) was precisely correct, in fact. Android and Ubuntu names are alphabetized. There have been so few Debian releases that it's easy to keep the names straight (plus their naming scheme includes their development releases; our development release names, Rawhide and Branched, *are* commonly used, but are not tied in any way at all to the stable release naming system). Fedora has tons of releases - so many you would need some kind of aide-memoire in the system to keep them straight - but there is none (unless you can somehow remember, or reconstruct, all the 'X is also a Y' associations in the right order). Also, Fedora uses a simple, clear and consistent numbering scheme. Ubuntu's is clear and rules-based, but a bit tricky to remember, because they don't always hit the six month cycle exactly, so the 'month' portion of the release number changes from release to release. With Fedora it's just an incremented integer every time, and we've never done any crazy scheme changes or big bumps or 'reset to V1's like some distros have. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
On 04/23/2012 03:06 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: On Fri, 2012-04-20 at 09:58 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote: Why isn't adding a link to an explanation to avoid misunderstandings originating from conotations sufficient anymore? This is at least what had been done in the past. 'sufficient' to what purpose? To explain the intentional co-notations and if necessary, whose which were not meant. Ralf -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 6:33 PM, Matej Cepl mc...@redhat.com wrote: On 20.4.2012 18:09, Ralf Corsepius wrote: Never. Nobody uses the code names. It's a waste of time and choosing names like Beefy Miracle is a good way of making the distro look a whole lot less professional. Well, as far as I can tell, many Ubuntu and Debian users prefer to call their release by name. Yes, and I wonder why Fedora users just don't it. Nobody knows why, either we have too stupid names, or we are too geeky, or something. And I have to admit, that although my first Debian was potato and I have switched to Fedora just before etch (and I have no idea, what was the number of these releases), I have never felt the smallest inclination to call my first Fedora distro anything else than Fedora Core 6. Matěj -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.**org/mailman/listinfo/develhttps://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel I think it has as much to do with the names as anything else. Ubuntu names are short and easy. Fedora names tend to be more obscure Lucid or Precise makes more sense than Zod or Beefy (forget the fat distro connotation...). Also the Ubuntu pattern is clear and wellknown (Adjective and animal name). I am still not sure how we got from Superman's nemesis to hot dogs (at least I think that is where beefy miracle came from...). -- Mark Bidewell http://www.linkedin.com/in/markbidewell -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
On 23/04/12 14:21, Ralf Corsepius wrote: On 04/23/2012 03:06 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: On Fri, 2012-04-20 at 09:58 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote: Why isn't adding a link to an explanation to avoid misunderstandings originating from conotations sufficient anymore? This is at least what had been done in the past. 'sufficient' to what purpose? To explain the intentional co-notations and if necessary, whose which were not meant. Ralf Pandering to gobsheens. -- Regards, Frank Jack of all, fubars -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
On Mon, 2012-04-23 at 15:21 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote: On 04/23/2012 03:06 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: On Fri, 2012-04-20 at 09:58 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote: Why isn't adding a link to an explanation to avoid misunderstandings originating from conotations sufficient anymore? This is at least what had been done in the past. 'sufficient' to what purpose? To explain the intentional co-notations and if necessary, whose which were not meant. Well, as I suggested with my personal position in the bit of my mail you cut out, I don't think the proposal to stop doing release names is actually motivated by any kind of worries about the connotations of 'beefy miracle'. I've always thought the names were a waste of time so I was more than happy to jump on a 'no more names' bandwagon when it came along, and it's been stated elsewhere in the thread that those who initiated the 'no more names' proposal are not the same people who were apparently offended by the beef. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
On 23/04/12 14:36, Mark Bidewell wrote: I think it has as much to do with the names as anything else. Ubuntu names are short and easy. But their numbering is crap. 12.04 ? Fedora names tend to be more obscure Lucid or Precise makes more sense than Zod or Beefy (forget the fat distro connotation...). Also the Ubuntu pattern is clear and wellknown (Adjective and animal name). Not to me. My hard disk has monogamous relationship with Fedora. I am still not sure how we got from Superman's nemesis to hot dogs (at least I think that is where beefy miracle came from...). I didn't know Jules Verne was superman's nemesis. -- Regards, Frank Jack of all, fubars -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
On Mon, 23 Apr 2012, Frank Murphy wrote: On 23/04/12 14:36, Mark Bidewell wrote: I think it has as much to do with the names as anything else. Ubuntu names are short and easy. But their numbering is crap. 12.04 ? To be fair their numbering is: YY.MM So 12.04 means April, 2012 -sv -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
On 23/04/12 14:46, Seth Vidal wrote: But their numbering is crap. 12.04 ? To be fair their numbering is: YY.MM So 12.04 means April, 2012 -sv But, are you going to say in converation Yes, I'm using Ubuntu release twelve zero four, or Lucid Does anyone know the full two words sans Google. -- Regards, Frank Jack of all, fubars -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
I am still not sure how we got from Superman's nemesis to hot dogs (at least I think that is where beefy miracle came from...). I didn't know Jules Verne was superman's nemesis. -- Regards, Frank Jack of all, fubars -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.**org/mailman/listinfo/develhttps://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Verne wasn't Zod was. However, given that each name has a relationship to the one before, there is a linkage. But to your point Jules Verne - Hot dogs? Not exactly clear. -- Mark Bidewell http://www.linkedin.com/in/markbidewell -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
On Mon, 23 Apr 2012 14:43:41 +0100 Frank Murphy frankl...@gmail.com wrote: On 23/04/12 14:36, Mark Bidewell wrote: I think it has as much to do with the names as anything else. Ubuntu names are short and easy. But their numbering is crap. 12.04 ? April 2012 I am still not sure how we got from Superman's nemesis to hot dogs (at least I think that is where beefy miracle came from...). I didn't know Jules Verne was superman's nemesis. Zod was. -- Regards, Frank Jack of all, fubars -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel -- Tomas Radej tra...@redhat.com -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
On 23/04/12 14:50, Tomas Radej wrote: But their numbering is crap. 12.04 ? April 2012 My point exactly, name fits better in their scenario. Ah Jules, are you on April or October, tweleve, I believe? Me ducks for cover. ame from...). I didn't know Jules Verne was superman's nemesis. Zod was. But he didn't come before the Beefy Miracle. It was one in, one out for a while. Me ducks for cover again. -- Regards, Frank Jack of all, fubars -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
On Mon, 23 Apr 2012 16:01:56 +0100 Frank Murphy frankl...@gmail.com wrote: On 23/04/12 14:50, Tomas Radej wrote: But their numbering is crap. 12.04 ? April 2012 My point exactly, name fits better in their scenario. Ah Jules, are you on April or October, tweleve, I believe? Me ducks for cover. I think numbering/naming problem is only about the target audience. If Non-geek users tend to stick with names (Karmic Koala, Gingerbread, Belle) and devs/powerusers prefer numbering, what's the problem? I don't see much confusion about naming and numbering on the message boards. I didn't know Jules Verne was superman's nemesis. Zod was. But he didn't come before the Beefy Miracle. It was one in, one out for a while. Me ducks for cover again. Zod was mentioned one paragraph above. -- Tomas Radej tra...@redhat.com -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
On 23/04/12 16:50, Tomas Radej wrote: I think numbering/naming problem is only about the target audience. That's just it, most Fedora non-geek users, use numbering. You see it on the mailing list(s) daily. Rarely do you see a Fedora N by it's name. I didn't know Jules Verne was superman's nemesis. Zod was. But he didn't come before the Beefy Miracle. It was one in, one out for a while. Me ducks for cover again. Zod was mentioned one paragraph above. Yes, but my point to the original Zod post, was he didn't come before the sausage. -- Regards, Frank Jack of all, fubars -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
On 04/23/2012 11:50 AM, Tomas Radej wrote: I think numbering/naming problem is only about the target audience. If Non-geek users tend to stick with names (Karmic Koala, Gingerbread, Belle) and devs/powerusers prefer numbering, what's the problem? I don't see much confusion about naming and numbering on the message boards. I think it's the other way around---geeks get excited about clever names, and Aunt Tillie uses Fedora 12 :) -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 06:09:38PM +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote: Well, as far as I can tell, many Ubuntu and Debian users prefer to call their release by name. An annoying feature of Debian. If you're not immersed in Debian development, it just means you have to go consult the mapping between names and release numbers on the Wikipedia page. At least Ubuntu's names are ordered alphabetically. Rich. -- Richard Jones, Virtualization Group, Red Hat http://people.redhat.com/~rjones virt-df lists disk usage of guests without needing to install any software inside the virtual machine. Supports Linux and Windows. http://et.redhat.com/~rjones/virt-df/ -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
On Apr 21, 2012, at 12:25 AM, Richard W.M. Jones wrote: On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 06:09:38PM +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote: Well, as far as I can tell, many Ubuntu and Debian users prefer to call their release by name. An annoying feature of Debian. If you're not immersed in Debian development, it just means you have to go consult the mapping between names and release numbers on the Wikipedia page. At least Ubuntu's names are ordered alphabetically. Apple does it also, and Mac users frequently reference only the name not the version. I find it irritating. As a Mac user, at best I remember the current cat and the last cat. References to future cats, past cats, along with the current cats, makes my eyes glaze over and I start thinking about how the litter box is already too full. We definitely don't need more g.d. cats! Apple doesn't name their iOS releases, however. Kinda curious huh? Chris Murphy -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
Seems that some people unhappy with the Beefy Miracle are trying to make sure that we won't ever had any nice and fluffy codename. H. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 10:00:58PM -0500, Michael Cronenworth wrote: On 04/19/2012 07:04 PM, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: This cycle, the Board is also asking contributors to let us know if we should continue to have release names for future Fedora releases. Even though the interface is the same, this portion is intended to be a poll rather than a straight up vote. The Fedora Board will look at the answers to determine if enough contributors value continuing to create release names to make it worthwhile in the future. If it does seem desirable, the Board will likely look into forming a working group to come up with a new method for creating release names for future releases. It would be nice to have a third option: -Change release names to release theme. We don't really need a name (IMO), but the theme adds a nice touch. What would that look like? Scenario 1: Fedora 21 The desktop wallpaper and other graphical elements have a common theme, for instance, blackjack. - I would say this would be a vote to stop using release names and let the design team decide how they want to theme the release Scenario 2: Fedora 21 The theme here is Las Vegas Fedora 22 The theme here is Paris Fedora 23 The theme here is Buenos Aires - The overall theme for Fedora releases are cities and every release has a different one. -- if we dont spell out the name in the release, I think this would be a vote to stop using release names and let the design team (and possibly ambassadors, docs, marketing) work out choosing new themes. - If we do make the city chosen explicit its likely a vote to keep release names (although it might be debatable if it isn't actually named after those cities) and the idea of keeping a common theme would be discussed and chosen when we revamp the process. Some other Scenario? Originally we considered having three questions: * keep release naming the way it is. * Keep release names but change the process. * Discard release names altogether. After discussion in the Board meeting, it was decided to go with two questions instead for the following reasons: * Three questions with range voting was seen as hard to understand. * Most people on the mailing list were against the current release naming procedure even if they were for some sort of release name -Toshio pgp2sUbtIKOdF.pgp Description: PGP signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 08:34:29AM +0200, Haïkel Guémar wrote: Seems that some people unhappy with the Beefy Miracle are trying to make sure that we won't ever had any nice and fluffy codename. Actually: * some people are just unhappy with the release names altogether. * some people are unhappy with the particular method we use to choose them * and yes, some people were unhappy with Beefy Miracle in particular I'll note that the people who were unhappy with Beefy Miracle in particular weren't the same people who started talking about removing code names. As for the poll -- The Board has heard a lot of people asking to remove code names but is unsure if thats just because thats the group that happen to subscribe to the mailing list in question. We figured that having a poll that ran in parallel to the naming election would give a good idea of whether conributors were actually in favor of keeping release names. If that's the case, we'll take a look at revising the process of selecting names since it seemed that many people had issues with the names that do get generated and wanted to change those in some way. -Toshio pgpLsAZMEoEvK.pgp Description: PGP signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
On 04/20/2012 08:34 AM, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 10:00:58PM -0500, Michael Cronenworth wrote: On 04/19/2012 07:04 PM, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: This cycle, the Board is also asking contributors to let us know if we should continue to have release names for future Fedora releases. Even though the interface is the same, this portion is intended to be a poll rather than a straight up vote. The Fedora Board will look at the answers to determine if enough contributors value continuing to create release names to make it worthwhile in the future. If it does seem desirable, the Board will likely look into forming a working group to come up with a new method for creating release names for future releases. It would be nice to have a third option: -Change release names to release theme. We don't really need a name (IMO), but the theme adds a nice touch. Whatever rule you choose somebody will always find a reason to complain. Some other Scenario? Originally we considered having three questions: * keep release naming the way it is. Why isn't adding a link to an explanation to avoid misunderstandings originating from conotations sufficient anymore? This is at least what had been done in the past. Ralf -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
On 20 April 2012 07:41, Toshio Kuratomi a.bad...@gmail.com wrote: As for the poll -- The Board has heard a lot of people asking to remove code names but is unsure if thats just because thats the group that happen to subscribe to the mailing list in question. When have you ever heard I'm running Fedora Beefy Miracle and it works fine. You should upgrade from Lovelock Never. Nobody uses the code names. It's a waste of time and choosing names like Beefy Miracle is a good way of making the distro look a whole lot less professional. Just call it Fedora 18. Richard. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
Seems that some people unhappy with the Beefy Miracle are trying to make sure that we won't ever had any nice and fluffy codename. I voted against all the names that sounded like Ubuntu copy-cats. Ubuntu names have always been (intentionally) adjective-noun, Fedora names have always been a single word, until F17. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/History_of_Fedora_release_names https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DevelopmentCodeNames -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
Michael Cronenworth wrote: It would be nice to have a third option: -Change release names to release theme. We don't really need a name (IMO), but the theme adds a nice touch. How about we just pick one good theme, make sure we really make it consistently show up EVERYWHERE (including Plymouth, for which Solar was the last theme to provide a matching theme plugin, we've been stuck with that ugly Charge theme ever since, and GRUB 2, which is currently unthemed) and then STICK to it? Why do we need a new theme at every single release? I'd rather have a good theme that just stands for Fedora (as opposed to Fedora n) and that gets only bug fixes and consistency improvements over time. (In fact, I'm still using Solar, exactly for that reason.) I think we should return to the Verne theme from Fedora 16 (Jules Verne stands for innovation and a touch of futurism, i.e. exactly what Fedora is about), design matching Plymouth and GRUB 2 artwork and make that our permanent Fedora artwork for at least the next 10 years. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
On 04/19/2012 08:04 PM, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: This cycle, the Board is also asking contributors to let us know if we should continue to have release names for future Fedora releases. Even though the interface is the same, this portion is intended to be a poll rather than a straight up vote. The Fedora Board will look at the answers to determine if enough contributors value continuing to create release names to make it worthwhile in the future. If it does seem desirable, the Board will likely look into forming a working group to come up with a new method for creating release names for future releases. I think that we've run into the 'pet vs. cattle' dilemma, where the usefulness of meaningful/cute naming gets beaten down by quantity of objects we're dealing with. We encountered the same problem regarding naming files and then directories and computers a while ago. It doesn't help to remember that we had a Zod release---all I can say about it is that it was long ago but I can't anchor it in sequence of releases without looking up the history of release names: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/History_of_Fedora_release_names Android (and Debian I think) use names that have a built-in alphabetic ordering (Gingerbread-Honeycomb-IceCreamSandwich). Debian numerical scheme of 'year.month' is very pedestrian but actually my favorite because it is most useful when one needs to place things in historical context (which kernel or which version of Gnome did it use, etc.) -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 09:36:17AM +0100, Richard Hughes wrote: On 20 April 2012 07:41, Toshio Kuratomi a.bad...@gmail.com wrote: As for the poll -- The Board has heard a lot of people asking to remove code names but is unsure if thats just because thats the group that happen to subscribe to the mailing list in question. When have you ever heard I'm running Fedora Beefy Miracle and it works fine. You should upgrade from Lovelock Never. Nobody uses the code names. It's a waste of time and choosing names like Beefy Miracle is a good way of making the distro look a whole lot less professional. Just call it Fedora 18. The poll would be a perfect place for you to say I don't want to have release names in the future. Thats why we set it up, after all. We've already heard arguments like this one in the Board thread[1]_ and we're trying to decide whether the feeling is universal among contributors or merely squeeky. .. [1]_: http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/advisory-board/2012-March/011419.html -Toshio pgpUbP0qLTLQr.pgp Description: PGP signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
On 04/20/2012 05:21 PM, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 09:36:17AM +0100, Richard Hughes wrote: On 20 April 2012 07:41, Toshio Kuratomia.bad...@gmail.com wrote: As for the poll -- The Board has heard a lot of people asking to remove code names but is unsure if thats just because thats the group that happen to subscribe to the mailing list in question. When have you ever heard I'm running Fedora Beefy Miracle and it works fine. You should upgrade from Lovelock Never. Nobody uses the code names. It's a waste of time and choosing names like Beefy Miracle is a good way of making the distro look a whole lot less professional. Just call it Fedora 18. Well, as far as I can tell, many Ubuntu and Debian users prefer to call their release by name. I don't know the reason for them doing so, but am inclined to believe it's because these distros even use the names for their repos: http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/ The poll would be a perfect place for you to say I don't want to have release names in the future. Thats why we set it up, after all. We've already heard arguments like this one in the Board thread[1]_ and we're trying to decide whether the feeling is universal among contributors or merely squeeky. .. [1]_: http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/advisory-board/2012-March/011419.html Though I basically agree with this comment, I think the commentor is missing the low hanging fruits towards community bonding and marketing this naming game has. To technical folks (like me), the names are mostly without importance and use, except that they some times give reasons for a grin ;) Ralf -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
On 20 April 2012 07:34, Toshio Kuratomi a.bad...@gmail.com wrote: Originally we considered having three questions: * keep release naming the way it is. * Keep release names but change the process. * Discard release names altogether. I would go for the third option. I dont' find Fedora or Ubuntu names interesting. The only open-source software project I can think of whose naming I actually like (so far) is Eclipse. I think F17, F18, etc are just fine, no need for names. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 5:00 AM, Michael Cronenworth m...@cchtml.com wrote: On 04/19/2012 07:04 PM, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: This cycle, the Board is also asking contributors to let us know if we should continue to have release names for future Fedora releases. Even though the interface is the same, this portion is intended to be a poll rather than a straight up vote. The Fedora Board will look at the answers to determine if enough contributors value continuing to create release names to make it worthwhile in the future. If it does seem desirable, the Board will likely look into forming a working group to come up with a new method for creating release names for future releases. It would be nice to have a third option: -Change release names to release theme. We don't really need a name (IMO), but the theme adds a nice touch. I actually don't see a point in changing the theme in every release but well ... -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
drago01 wrote: I actually don't see a point in changing the theme in every release but well ... I do not care if the theme changes every release or every decade. The only part of the name vote that I saw beneficial was the theme that went along with the name. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
On 20.4.2012 18:09, Ralf Corsepius wrote: Never. Nobody uses the code names. It's a waste of time and choosing names like Beefy Miracle is a good way of making the distro look a whole lot less professional. Well, as far as I can tell, many Ubuntu and Debian users prefer to call their release by name. Yes, and I wonder why Fedora users just don't it. Nobody knows why, either we have too stupid names, or we are too geeky, or something. And I have to admit, that although my first Debian was potato and I have switched to Fedora just before etch (and I have no idea, what was the number of these releases), I have never felt the smallest inclination to call my first Fedora distro anything else than Fedora Core 6. Matěj -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Fedora 18 Release name voting and Poll for whether to continue naming releases
On 04/19/2012 07:04 PM, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: This cycle, the Board is also asking contributors to let us know if we should continue to have release names for future Fedora releases. Even though the interface is the same, this portion is intended to be a poll rather than a straight up vote. The Fedora Board will look at the answers to determine if enough contributors value continuing to create release names to make it worthwhile in the future. If it does seem desirable, the Board will likely look into forming a working group to come up with a new method for creating release names for future releases. It would be nice to have a third option: -Change release names to release theme. We don't really need a name (IMO), but the theme adds a nice touch. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
