subject:"Re\: What is Fedora\?"

I do have packages on a RHEL9 system that do not appear in 
https://kojihub.stream.centos.org/koji/ - so the fix is unknown from an 
external view
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: CentOS Stream, RHEL, and Fedora [was Re: What is Fedora?]

Once upon a time, Aleksandra Fedorova  said:
> In this case you don't need a repo, you need just this specific build to
> apply it on your environment, isn't it?

If I only had one system to worry about, maybe (although maybe not, if
the build introduces a new dependency for example).  But if I want to
install it on a group of systems, managed with Ansible for example, no,
that's not really enough (unless I have my own repo infrastructure).

-- 
Chris Adams 
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: What is Fedora?

Yep! I (We) spend a lot of unpaid time to provide EL bug reports, helping the 
devs to test their fixes, until it gets into the next EL minor release. 
Especially when a new major EL release is GA, it has a lot of bugs that I 
normally do report (doing it since EL5 personally). This is sometimes only 
possible when having the source code to test some patches before adding them to 
the report. Despite the argument that the srpms are available in the portal 
area, I wonder if the mentioned decision had included this "tacit" input that 
is coming from the "community". Not having such input in combination with a 
reduced community will for sure have a negative impact. I'm already reading 
statements from Fedora maintainers of their EPEL backtracks and I can imagine 
that the same is happening for less visible contributions ... 
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: CentOS Stream, RHEL, and Fedora [was Re: What is Fedora?]

> I will also point out that CentOS Stream is perfectly suitable for
> production use, and I would argue it provides a differentiated

Nope, its not perfect for production use. Just an example of _many_:

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2184640

Despite the fact that some critical fixes only land into the compose many weeks 
later, if at all. 
Some are only in RHEL while CentOS Stream have a rebased version without the 
fix. Nope, its not perfect 
for prod use. Emphasizing perfect here. Everything else is corporate speak. Its 
just perfect to make
contributions, and this is the main intention of "CentOS Stream".
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: CentOS Stream, RHEL, and Fedora [was Re: What is Fedora?]

2023-06-24 Thread Aleksandra Fedorova

On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 6:36 PM Chris Adams  wrote:

> Once upon a time, Aleksandra Fedorova  said:
> > When you build a package in CentOS Koji it gets into c9s-gate tag [1].
> > These packages are publicly available and if you'd like to use or test
> them
> > before their RHEL part passed the internal RHEL QE, you can do that.
> >
> > https://kojihub.stream.centos.org/koji/taginfo?tagID=2
>
> That's not available as a repo though AFAIK.
>

Afaiu the use case we are discussing looks like:
there is a CVE fix which you want to land in CentOS Stream as fast as
possible. And that specific fix may be delayed because RHEL QE takes time
and has to deal with their own priorities.

So the fix is known, there is BZ for it and the merge request for it is
also known and merged. The package is built, it is available in koji, but
it sits in -gate tag and is not promoted to the -pending( which means
compose, buildroot and mirrors) because it waits on RHEL QE.

In this case you don't need a repo, you need just this specific build to
apply it on your environment, isn't it?

It is not that creation of repositories is not possible. I just think that
having a repo with all of the content of -gate tag wouldn't help here.
Especially since -gate tag contains also builds which failed the gating
tests and therefore are not expected to be promoted ever.

> --
> Chris Adams 
> ___
> devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
> Fedora Code of Conduct:
> https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
> List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> List Archives:
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> Do not reply to spam, report it:
> https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
>

-- 
Aleksandra Fedorova
bookwar
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: What is Fedora?

https://access.redhat.com/security/updates/backporting/
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: CentOS Stream, RHEL, and Fedora [was Re: What is Fedora?]

Once upon a time, Aleksandra Fedorova  said:
> When you build a package in CentOS Koji it gets into c9s-gate tag [1].
> These packages are publicly available and if you'd like to use or test them
> before their RHEL part passed the internal RHEL QE, you can do that.
> 
> https://kojihub.stream.centos.org/koji/taginfo?tagID=2

That's not available as a repo though AFAIK.
-- 
Chris Adams 
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: What is Fedora?

2023-06-24 Thread Demi Marie Obenour

On 6/23/23 15:20, Michael Catanzaro wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 23 2023 at 01:27:24 PM -0400, Josh Boyer 
>  wrote:
>> Which means equivalent fixes are in CentOS Stream and anyone wanting
>> to recreate exactly what is in RHEL is welcome to backport that code
>> from CentOS Stream or upstream.
> 
> Yes, but that's going to be pretty hard to do if you cannot see what 
> needs to be backported because you don't have a Customer Portal 
> subscription. :)
> 
> In this particular case, there are two CVEs fixed somewhere in the 
> middle of maybe 100 other upstream changes, and the correspondence 
> between CVE vs. upstream commit is intentionally not public to 
> discourage distros from backporting individual security fixes. (It's 
> not a smart idea. Only 5% of WebKit security bugs get CVEs. I sometimes 
> do security backports for RHEL anyway for regulatory rather than 
> security reasons.) Anyway, to figure out what to backport in order to 
> match what's in RHEL, you'd have to either somehow get access to the 
> RHEL SRPM, or else email me and ask what to do.
> 
> I don't really have any strong opinion about this change. Just pointing 
> out that it's going to be effectively impossible to reverse-engineer 
> RHEL from CentOS Stream. Let's not pretend that's realistic. Rebuilders 
> are going to need to get copies of the RHEL SRPMs somehow if they want 
> to match RHEL, and they do.

For WebKit specifically, my recommendation is to just take the latest
version from upstream, since anything else will be missing critical
security patches.  I would be highly surprised if Red Hat has
patches that add any significant value there.  This is even more
true for Firefox, since Firefox is a leaf package.

For upstreams as complex, fast-moving, and exposed as browser engines,
trying to backport fixes is a fool’s errand.  Just take what upstream
provides and ship it.  If one needs patches for legal reasons, upstream
those and ship the result.  And yes, in the case of Chromium that does
mean using a clang binary built from the same sources as the one Google
provides.  Every hour needed to ship a patch is one hour the attackers
have to write and deploy an exploit.
-- 
Sincerely,
Demi Marie Obenour (she/her/hers)
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: CentOS Stream, RHEL, and Fedora [was Re: What is Fedora?]

2023-06-24 Thread Aleksandra Fedorova

Hi,

On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 6:09 PM Michael Catanzaro 
wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, Jun 24 2023 at 10:24:58 AM -0500, Chris Adams
>  wrote:
> > Is there any chance of having a CentOS Stream repo along the lines of
> > Fedora's updates-testing, so that CVEs at least would have some type
> > of
> > available update in a timely manner?  With 7 there's the fasttrack
> > repo,
> > but it doesn't actually seem to be used currently (and IIRC wasn't
> > ever
> > a "testing" type channel).
>
> A new -testing repo might make sense indeed. I believe currently
> updates are held until after Red Hat QA has tested them, which
> introduces significant delay (although not any delay relative to RHEL
> updates). I don't know what the chances of this happening are, though.
> It works really well for Fedora though, where community members
> regularly catch bugs that would otherwise have reached stable users, so
> it's certainly something to consider.
>

I think we should move this conversation to centos-devel mailing list.

But also there is no point in -testing repo for CentOS Stream.

When you build a package in CentOS Koji it gets into c9s-gate tag [1].
These packages are publicly available and if you'd like to use or test them
before their RHEL part passed the internal RHEL QE, you can do that.

https://kojihub.stream.centos.org/koji/taginfo?tagID=2



> ___
> devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
> Fedora Code of Conduct:
> https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
> List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> List Archives:
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> Do not reply to spam, report it:
> https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
>


-- 
-- 
Aleksandra Fedorova
bookwar
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: CentOS Stream, RHEL, and Fedora [was Re: What is Fedora?]

2023-06-24 Thread Michael Catanzaro




On Sat, Jun 24 2023 at 10:24:58 AM -0500, Chris Adams 
 wrote:

Is there any chance of having a CentOS Stream repo along the lines of
Fedora's updates-testing, so that CVEs at least would have some type 
of
available update in a timely manner?  With 7 there's the fasttrack 
repo,
but it doesn't actually seem to be used currently (and IIRC wasn't 
ever

a "testing" type channel).


A new -testing repo might make sense indeed. I believe currently 
updates are held until after Red Hat QA has tested them, which 
introduces significant delay (although not any delay relative to RHEL 
updates). I don't know what the chances of this happening are, though. 
It works really well for Fedora though, where community members 
regularly catch bugs that would otherwise have reached stable users, so 
it's certainly something to consider.


___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: CentOS Stream, RHEL, and Fedora [was Re: What is Fedora?]

2023-06-24 Thread Michael Catanzaro

On Sat, Jun 24 2023 at 03:26:46 PM +, Gary Buhrmaster 
 wrote:

If one does find a security update that did not get
streamed, is there a way for a non-customer[0] to
open an appropriate ticket both now, and in the
future when RH moves their internal bug tracker
to jira[1]?


Yes, you do not have to be a customer to use Bugzilla/Jira to report 
bugs.


___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: CentOS Stream, RHEL, and Fedora [was Re: What is Fedora?]

2023-06-24 Thread Gary Buhrmaster

On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 3:05 PM Michael Catanzaro  wrote:

> But in practice, we actually currently have a lot of desynced packages
> where RHEL is ahead of CentOS Stream for various reasons. I believe
> most such cases are mistakes that need to be corrected, not intentional
> delays. E.g. if a particular developer just forgets to fix the CVE in
> CentOS Stream, currently nobody is checking to catch that and complain
> and get things fixed. Red Hat needs to catch and fix these issues
> proactively, but is not currently doing so. Since only Red Hat is able
> to commit to CentOS Stream, the community is limited to tracking
> desyncs and complaining when it happens. (That would be really valuable
> to do IMO.)

Most of the time, as you say, things work well (at
least in my experience).

If one does find a security update that did not get
streamed, is there a way for a non-customer[0] to
open an appropriate ticket both now, and in the
future when RH moves their internal bug tracker
to jira[1]?

[0] There are those that have used the clones
and streams for some time without having to
sign up with RH.

[1] It is not clear to me if one will need a formal
support contract in order to open tickets into
the future jira instances.
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: CentOS Stream, RHEL, and Fedora [was Re: What is Fedora?]

Once upon a time, Michael Catanzaro  said:
> So here is the reality with security updates. The vast majority of
> security updates are shipped in RHEL 3-9 months after we fix them,
> because minimizing the quantity of updates is an important goal in
> RHEL to reduce update churn for customers, so we only want to
> release quick fixes for issues that pose serious risk. (Most
> security issues are just not very urgent.) This means you get most
> security fixes drastically sooner in CentOS Stream than you would in
> RHEL. However, higher-severity security updates do get fixed in RHEL
> first. Developers are not permitted to fix higher-severity security
> issues in CentOS Stream until after the fix is shipped in at least
> one RHEL update. We're encouraged to do so immediately after the fix
> ships in RHEL, so there *should* only be a minor delay of, say, one
> or two business days for the developer to notice the update has
> shipped. So in general, CentOS Stream *should* generally be ahead of
> RHEL and ideally only slightly behind for the more serious CVEs.
> 
> But in practice, we actually currently have a lot of desynced
> packages where RHEL is ahead of CentOS Stream for various reasons. I
> believe most such cases are mistakes that need to be corrected, not
> intentional delays. E.g. if a particular developer just forgets to
> fix the CVE in CentOS Stream, currently nobody is checking to catch
> that and complain and get things fixed. Red Hat needs to catch and
> fix these issues proactively, but is not currently doing so. Since
> only Red Hat is able to commit to CentOS Stream, the community is
> limited to tracking desyncs and complaining when it happens. (That
> would be really valuable to do IMO.)

Seems like some tooling/notifications might could help with that,
although that type of work is rarely interesting enough to get resource
assignment in the business world (and since all of this is done behind
Red Hat's curtain, there's AFAIK no path for community involvement).  I
guess a non-Hatter could use a dev subscription to compare RHEL content
to CentOS Stream content and note differences (and file BZes I guess?).

Is there any chance of having a CentOS Stream repo along the lines of
Fedora's updates-testing, so that CVEs at least would have some type of
available update in a timely manner?  With 7 there's the fasttrack repo,
but it doesn't actually seem to be used currently (and IIRC wasn't ever
a "testing" type channel).

-- 
Chris Adams 
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: CentOS Stream, RHEL, and Fedora [was Re: What is Fedora?]

2023-06-24 Thread Michael Catanzaro



On Sat, Jun 24 2023 at 08:53:32 AM -0500, Chris Adams 
 wrote:
Is it?  At one point, there were considerable gaps in security 
updates;

RHEL 9.x would get an update while CentOS Stream 9 (as the target for
RHEL 9.[x+1]) didn't get a corresponding update for quite a while.  If
Stream doesn't get security updates in a timely fashion, it is not at
all suitable for production use.


So here is the reality with security updates. The vast majority of 
security updates are shipped in RHEL 3-9 months after we fix them, 
because minimizing the quantity of updates is an important goal in RHEL 
to reduce update churn for customers, so we only want to release quick 
fixes for issues that pose serious risk. (Most security issues are just 
not very urgent.) This means you get most security fixes drastically 
sooner in CentOS Stream than you would in RHEL. However, 
higher-severity security updates do get fixed in RHEL first. Developers 
are not permitted to fix higher-severity security issues in CentOS 
Stream until after the fix is shipped in at least one RHEL update. 
We're encouraged to do so immediately after the fix ships in RHEL, so 
there *should* only be a minor delay of, say, one or two business days 
for the developer to notice the update has shipped. So in general, 
CentOS Stream *should* generally be ahead of RHEL and ideally only 
slightly behind for the more serious CVEs.


But in practice, we actually currently have a lot of desynced packages 
where RHEL is ahead of CentOS Stream for various reasons. I believe 
most such cases are mistakes that need to be corrected, not intentional 
delays. E.g. if a particular developer just forgets to fix the CVE in 
CentOS Stream, currently nobody is checking to catch that and complain 
and get things fixed. Red Hat needs to catch and fix these issues 
proactively, but is not currently doing so. Since only Red Hat is able 
to commit to CentOS Stream, the community is limited to tracking 
desyncs and complaining when it happens. (That would be really valuable 
to do IMO.)


Michael

___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: CentOS Stream, RHEL, and Fedora [was Re: What is Fedora?]

Once upon a time, Neal Gompa  said:
> I will also point out that CentOS Stream is perfectly suitable for
> production use

Is it?  At one point, there were considerable gaps in security updates;
RHEL 9.x would get an update while CentOS Stream 9 (as the target for
RHEL 9.[x+1]) didn't get a corresponding update for quite a while.  If
Stream doesn't get security updates in a timely fashion, it is not at
all suitable for production use.

-- 
Chris Adams 
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: CentOS Stream, RHEL, and Fedora [was Re: What is Fedora?]

2023-06-24 Thread Neal Gompa

On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 6:09 PM Kevin Kofler via devel
 wrote:
>
> Josh Boyer wrote:
> > Agree with Matthew fully here.  We've been working rather hard
> > internally to adjust the development process for RHEL to be more
> > collaborative and open than it ever has before.
>
> The *development process* is more open, but the production releases, which
> is the only thing end users are interested in, are less open!
>

Actually, this is not true either. Since December 2020, Red Hat
Enterprise Linux has added a number of avenues in which you can freely
get it:

1. Individuals (16 entitlements, prod use permitted):
https://developers.redhat.com/articles/faqs-no-cost-red-hat-enterprise-linux

2. Teams (mucho entitlements for companies, no prod):
https://developers.redhat.com/articles/2022/05/10/access-rhel-developer-teams-subscription

3. OSS projects running their own infra (mucho entitlements, prod use
permitted): 
https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/extending-no-cost-red-hat-enterprise-linux-open-source-organizations

Is it everything that people need? No. Could they do more here?
Absolutely. But their willingness to even do this should be applauded.

I will also point out that CentOS Stream is perfectly suitable for
production use, and I would argue it provides a differentiated
experience in its own right: because CentOS Stream does not go through
certification work that locks on specific package versions, any and
all fixes done by Red Hat or community members are released
immediately after running through the gates and passing the tests at
the gates. That shortens the average TTL for non-critical/non-security
improvements from 6 months to a couple of weeks.

Offhand, I know CentOS Stream 9 is available as an option in the
following VPS providers:

* DigitalOcean
* Linode
* Vultr
* Hetzner
* Afterburst

There are a lot of providers out there, and it's quite likely that
even more ones that offer it. These are just the ones I've used or are
aware of.

-- 
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: What is Fedora?

2023-06-23 Thread Neil Hanlon

On Fri, Jun 23, 2023, 18:41 Josh Boyer  wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Jun 23, 2023, 3:20 PM Michael Catanzaro 
> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Jun 23 2023 at 01:27:24 PM -0400, Josh Boyer
>>  wrote:
>> > Which means equivalent fixes are in CentOS Stream and anyone wanting
>> > to recreate exactly what is in RHEL is welcome to backport that code
>> > from CentOS Stream or upstream.
>>
>> Yes, but that's going to be pretty hard to do if you cannot see what
>> needs to be backported because you don't have a Customer Portal
>> subscription. :)
>>
>
> Yes, the work you do is not easy.
>
> In this particular case, there are two CVEs fixed somewhere in the
>> middle of maybe 100 other upstream changes, and the correspondence
>> between CVE vs. upstream commit is intentionally not public to
>> discourage distros from backporting individual security fixes. (It's
>> not a smart idea. Only 5% of WebKit security bugs get CVEs. I sometimes
>> do security backports for RHEL anyway for regulatory rather than
>> security reasons.) Anyway, to figure out what to backport in order to
>> match what's in RHEL, you'd have to either somehow get access to the
>> RHEL SRPM, or else email me and ask what to do.
>>
>
> Or build up a knowledge of the code base that allows one to do it
> themselves.
>
> I don't really have any strong opinion about this change. Just pointing
>> out that it's going to be effectively impossible to reverse-engineer
>> RHEL from CentOS Stream. Let's not pretend that's realistic. Rebuilders
>> are going to need to get copies of the RHEL SRPMs somehow if they want
>> to match RHEL, and they do.
>>
>
> I don't think it's impossible.  I think it requires work, skill, and
> investment.
>

if only that time, skill, and investment wasn't doing useless re-work, and
could be spent on contributing to Stream.


> josh
> ___
> devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
> Fedora Code of Conduct:
> https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
> List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> List Archives:
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> Do not reply to spam, report it:
> https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
>
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: What is Fedora?

2023-06-23 Thread Josh Boyer

On Fri, Jun 23, 2023, 3:20 PM Michael Catanzaro 
wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 23 2023 at 01:27:24 PM -0400, Josh Boyer
>  wrote:
> > Which means equivalent fixes are in CentOS Stream and anyone wanting
> > to recreate exactly what is in RHEL is welcome to backport that code
> > from CentOS Stream or upstream.
>
> Yes, but that's going to be pretty hard to do if you cannot see what
> needs to be backported because you don't have a Customer Portal
> subscription. :)
>

Yes, the work you do is not easy.

In this particular case, there are two CVEs fixed somewhere in the
> middle of maybe 100 other upstream changes, and the correspondence
> between CVE vs. upstream commit is intentionally not public to
> discourage distros from backporting individual security fixes. (It's
> not a smart idea. Only 5% of WebKit security bugs get CVEs. I sometimes
> do security backports for RHEL anyway for regulatory rather than
> security reasons.) Anyway, to figure out what to backport in order to
> match what's in RHEL, you'd have to either somehow get access to the
> RHEL SRPM, or else email me and ask what to do.
>

Or build up a knowledge of the code base that allows one to do it
themselves.

I don't really have any strong opinion about this change. Just pointing
> out that it's going to be effectively impossible to reverse-engineer
> RHEL from CentOS Stream. Let's not pretend that's realistic. Rebuilders
> are going to need to get copies of the RHEL SRPMs somehow if they want
> to match RHEL, and they do.
>

I don't think it's impossible.  I think it requires work, skill, and
investment.

josh
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: CentOS Stream, RHEL, and Fedora [was Re: What is Fedora?]

2023-06-23 Thread Kevin Kofler via devel

Josh Boyer wrote:
> Agree with Matthew fully here.  We've been working rather hard
> internally to adjust the development process for RHEL to be more
> collaborative and open than it ever has before.

The *development process* is more open, but the production releases, which 
is the only thing end users are interested in, are less open!

Kevin Kofler
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: What is Fedora?

2023-06-23 Thread Michael Catanzaro

On Fri, Jun 23 2023 at 01:27:24 PM -0400, Josh Boyer 
 wrote:

Which means equivalent fixes are in CentOS Stream and anyone wanting
to recreate exactly what is in RHEL is welcome to backport that code
from CentOS Stream or upstream.


Yes, but that's going to be pretty hard to do if you cannot see what 
needs to be backported because you don't have a Customer Portal 
subscription. :)


In this particular case, there are two CVEs fixed somewhere in the 
middle of maybe 100 other upstream changes, and the correspondence 
between CVE vs. upstream commit is intentionally not public to 
discourage distros from backporting individual security fixes. (It's 
not a smart idea. Only 5% of WebKit security bugs get CVEs. I sometimes 
do security backports for RHEL anyway for regulatory rather than 
security reasons.) Anyway, to figure out what to backport in order to 
match what's in RHEL, you'd have to either somehow get access to the 
RHEL SRPM, or else email me and ask what to do.


I don't really have any strong opinion about this change. Just pointing 
out that it's going to be effectively impossible to reverse-engineer 
RHEL from CentOS Stream. Let's not pretend that's realistic. Rebuilders 
are going to need to get copies of the RHEL SRPMs somehow if they want 
to match RHEL, and they do.


Michael

___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: What is Fedora?

2023-06-23 Thread Josh Boyer

On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 9:35 AM Michael Catanzaro  wrote:
>
> On Fri, Jun 23 2023 at 01:07:39 PM +0200, Vít Ondruch
>  wrote:
> > Please understand that (speaking of the user space packages, I cannot
> > speak for kernel) there are no other sources then the sources in
> > GitLab,
> > which is publicly accessible (AFAIK).
>
> The sources that are actually used for RHEL releases are certainly not
> available on GitLab. E.g. the latest released version of webkit2gtk3 is
> currently 2.38.5-1.el9.2. You can try finding the source for that on
> GitLab, but it's not there because we don't have stable branches on
> GitLab. CentOS Stream went from 2.38.5-1.el9 to 2.40.1-1.el9.

Which means equivalent fixes are in CentOS Stream and anyone wanting
to recreate exactly what is in RHEL is welcome to backport that code
from CentOS Stream or upstream.

josh
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: What is Fedora?

2023-06-23 Thread Michael Catanzaro

On Fri, Jun 23 2023 at 06:16:52 PM +0200, Vít Ondruch 
 wrote:

Ah, there is actually webkit2gtk3-2.38.5-1.el9_2.2 not
webkit2gtk3-2.38.5-1.el9.2. I got it now.


Oh sorry, I mentally expanded the dist tag incorrectly. My bad.

Anyway, in this example, CentOS Stream is on 2.40 while RHEL 9.2 is on 
2.38. The RHEL security update is never visible in CentOS Stream 
because it's not needed there.


Hopefully 2.40 is better overall than 2.38 (and certainly much more 
secure), but certainly there are always plenty of new regressions and 
bugs that were not there before. No way to pretend you're 
bug-compatible with RHEL if you're pulling sources from CentOS Stream.


___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: What is Fedora?



Dne 23. 06. 23 v 18:14 Vít Ondruch napsal(a):


Dne 23. 06. 23 v 18:00 Vít Ondruch napsal(a):


Dne 23. 06. 23 v 15:34 Michael Catanzaro napsal(a):
On Fri, Jun 23 2023 at 01:07:39 PM +0200, Vít Ondruch 
 wrote:

Please understand that (speaking of the user space packages, I cannot
speak for kernel) there are no other sources then the sources in 
GitLab,

which is publicly accessible (AFAIK).


The sources that are actually used for RHEL releases are certainly 
not available on GitLab. E.g. the latest released version of 
webkit2gtk3 is currently 2.38.5-1.el9.2. You can try finding the 
source for that on GitLab, but it's not there because we don't have 
stable branches on GitLab. CentOS Stream went from 2.38.5-1.el9 to 
2.40.1-1.el9.





Or actually. What is the difference between 2.38.5-1.el9.2 and 
2.38.5-1.el9 except the dist tag? I probably don't understand.



Ah, there is actually webkit2gtk3-2.38.5-1.el9_2.2 not 
webkit2gtk3-2.38.5-1.el9.2. I got it now.



Vít


And that might be problem that neither others understand. But I'd 
assume that only the disttag differs.


Vít



Ok, you are right. But there are two things:

1) This was deliberate choice of maintainer, nothing else. Maintainer 
chosen to skip the 2.38.5 whatever the reason was


2) Does it harm anything to have the 9.3 package sooner the having 
RHEL 9.3 out? Is it really less stable as was claimed elsewhere in 
the thread?



Vít



OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: What is Fedora?



Dne 23. 06. 23 v 18:00 Vít Ondruch napsal(a):


Dne 23. 06. 23 v 15:34 Michael Catanzaro napsal(a):
On Fri, Jun 23 2023 at 01:07:39 PM +0200, Vít Ondruch 
 wrote:

Please understand that (speaking of the user space packages, I cannot
speak for kernel) there are no other sources then the sources in 
GitLab,

which is publicly accessible (AFAIK).


The sources that are actually used for RHEL releases are certainly 
not available on GitLab. E.g. the latest released version of 
webkit2gtk3 is currently 2.38.5-1.el9.2. You can try finding the 
source for that on GitLab, but it's not there because we don't have 
stable branches on GitLab. CentOS Stream went from 2.38.5-1.el9 to 
2.40.1-1.el9.





Or actually. What is the difference between 2.38.5-1.el9.2 and 
2.38.5-1.el9 except the dist tag? I probably don't understand. And that 
might be problem that neither others understand. But I'd assume that 
only the disttag differs.


Vít



Ok, you are right. But there are two things:

1) This was deliberate choice of maintainer, nothing else. Maintainer 
chosen to skip the 2.38.5 whatever the reason was


2) Does it harm anything to have the 9.3 package sooner the having 
RHEL 9.3 out? Is it really less stable as was claimed elsewhere in the 
thread?



Vít



OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: What is Fedora?



Dne 23. 06. 23 v 15:34 Michael Catanzaro napsal(a):
On Fri, Jun 23 2023 at 01:07:39 PM +0200, Vít Ondruch 
 wrote:

Please understand that (speaking of the user space packages, I cannot
speak for kernel) there are no other sources then the sources in GitLab,
which is publicly accessible (AFAIK).


The sources that are actually used for RHEL releases are certainly not 
available on GitLab. E.g. the latest released version of webkit2gtk3 
is currently 2.38.5-1.el9.2. You can try finding the source for that 
on GitLab, but it's not there because we don't have stable branches on 
GitLab. CentOS Stream went from 2.38.5-1.el9 to 2.40.1-1.el9.



Ok, you are right. But there are two things:

1) This was deliberate choice of maintainer, nothing else. Maintainer 
chosen to skip the 2.38.5 whatever the reason was


2) Does it harm anything to have the 9.3 package sooner the having RHEL 
9.3 out? Is it really less stable as was claimed elsewhere in the thread?



Vít



OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: What is Fedora?

2023-06-23 Thread Michael Catanzaro

On Fri, Jun 23 2023 at 01:07:39 PM +0200, Vít Ondruch 
 wrote:

Please understand that (speaking of the user space packages, I cannot
speak for kernel) there are no other sources then the sources in 
GitLab,

which is publicly accessible (AFAIK).


The sources that are actually used for RHEL releases are certainly not 
available on GitLab. E.g. the latest released version of webkit2gtk3 is 
currently 2.38.5-1.el9.2. You can try finding the source for that on 
GitLab, but it's not there because we don't have stable branches on 
GitLab. CentOS Stream went from 2.38.5-1.el9 to 2.40.1-1.el9.


___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: What is Fedora?



Dne 23. 06. 23 v 12:46 Leon Fauster via devel napsal(a):

3) So what happened?

- CentOS Engineers will not be producing that git repo of exploded SRPMs
anymore because there is no need for them in CentOS project.

- Red Hat recommends to take RHEL sources from CentOS Stream
repositories because that is the actual source from which RHEL packages
are built by RHEL Engineers.

How to interpret it this way; "Red Hat recommends"? Its the other way around!
RH does want minimize the source availability by putting stones in the way!
This is in line with other activities (kernel patches).

Regarding Dev Account - that can be also disappear in the future!

Furthermore:

Take a look at the Unauthorized Use section

https://www.redhat.com/licenses/Appendix_1_Global_English_20230309.pdf

and "Partner will not use Red Hat Products or >>>Services to create an offering 
competitive with Red Hat,"

from

https://www.redhat.com/licenses/Partner_Agreement_Webversion_North_America_English_20220308.pdf

The tactic here - not the sources are used against the community its the road to them 
("Services")!

This is the cathedral method.


BTW; The sources "state" in gitlab is not stable and "far" away from RH GA 
releases!



Please understand that (speaking of the user space packages, I cannot 
speak for kernel) there are no other sources then the sources in GitLab, 
which is publicly accessible (AFAIK).




Vít



OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: What is Fedora?

2023-06-23 Thread Leon Fauster via devel


> 3) So what happened?
> 
> - CentOS Engineers will not be producing that git repo of exploded SRPMs 
> anymore because there is no need for them in CentOS project.
> 
> - Red Hat recommends to take RHEL sources from CentOS Stream 
> repositories because that is the actual source from which RHEL packages 
> are built by RHEL Engineers.

How to interpret it this way; "Red Hat recommends"? Its the other way around!
RH does want minimize the source availability by putting stones in the way! 
This is in line with other activities (kernel patches).

Regarding Dev Account - that can be also disappear in the future!

Furthermore:

Take a look at the Unauthorized Use section

https://www.redhat.com/licenses/Appendix_1_Global_English_20230309.pdf

and "Partner will not use Red Hat Products or >>>Services to create an 
offering competitive with Red Hat," 

from 

https://www.redhat.com/licenses/Partner_Agreement_Webversion_North_America_English_20220308.pdf

The tactic here - not the sources are used against the community its the road 
to them ("Services")!

This is the cathedral method. 


BTW; The sources "state" in gitlab is not stable and "far" away from RH GA 
releases!
 
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: CentOS Stream, RHEL, and Fedora [was Re: What is Fedora?]

2023-06-23 Thread Jonathan Steffan

Matthew,

Thanks for sending this out. There is a lot of FUD right now and this plan
is what I had hoped was going on. The FPO/RH/IBM should do some additional
community engagement to clear this up. A very clear diagram of the
development/packaging flow would go a long way and give the community a
simple artifact to share in place of all of the FUD.

I was worried after reading some of the misinformation/misunderstanding. I
was getting concerned we'd have to start up FUDCons again and fork the
project. Thankfully, that does not at all seem to be the case.

Cheers,


On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 12:47 AM Simon de Vlieger  wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 22, 2023, at 11:01 AM, Matthew Miller wrote:
>
> > 1. Fedora Rawhide continually updated
> > 2. ELN maintained in parallel, as part of Fedora
> > 3. At some point, ELN branched to new CentOS Stream
> > 4. ... a year or so of CentOS Stream development in public ...
> > 5. RHEL Beta forked from that, released
> > 6. Work on RHEL updates visible in CentOS Stream
> > 7. Updates appear in CentOS Stream
> > 8. Updates released to RHEL
> >
> > Note that with CentOS Stream 10 / RHEL 10, step 3 here will _maintain git
> > history from Fedora, which is a big improvement in preserving all of the
> > incredible, valuable work from Fedora contributors.
> >
> > All of this is the exact opposite of Red Hat preparing to make some new
> base
> > for RHEL. Additionally, this model provides a clean path for
> > Red-Hat-opinionated decisions to differ from those we make from Fedora.
> Take
> > BTRFS as an example. Or, the increase in CPU baseline. Like this:
>
> Matthew, this is a great summary and also the understanding I currently
> have. It might be a good thing if this information lives in a more
> permanent place that I can refer people to. Perhaps something on Fedora's
> documentation about the Enterprise Linux ecosystem or a blogpost on either
> the Fedora or RedHat blogs?
>
> Regards,
>
> Simon
> ___
> devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
> Fedora Code of Conduct:
> https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
> List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> List Archives:
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> Do not reply to spam, report it:
> https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
>


-- 
Jonathan Steffan
jonathanstef...@gmail.com
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: What is Fedora?

2023-06-23 Thread Benson Muite


> 
> This doesn't impact Fedora, but will certainly impact the various
> RHEL rebuilds whether community based (AlmaLinux, Rocky Linux),
> or fully commercial (Oracle OEL). Those distros can still provide
> the initial point releases, but will have to do all the work to
> figure out backports for bug fixes/CVEs/etc within the release.
> This is going to be a serious burden for those distros.
> 
At present Red Hat is the primary sponsor for Fedora.  RHEL is one
downstream of Fedora, but there are others including Amazon Linux, Alma,
Rocky, CentOS, Miracle Linux, Qubes OS, Open Euler, Linpux etc. As a
result, Fedora development is healthy and robust, and may cost Red Hat
less than other development models. It may be good to evolve the Fedora
governance model to recognize other significant contributors (both
resources and time), either individually or corporate and provide a
means for these contributors to also contribute to the governance of the
project should they want to do so.
> With regards,
> Daniel
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: CentOS Stream, RHEL, and Fedora [was Re: What is Fedora?]

2023-06-23 Thread Simon de Vlieger

On Thu, Jun 22, 2023, at 11:01 AM, Matthew Miller wrote:

> 1. Fedora Rawhide continually updated
> 2. ELN maintained in parallel, as part of Fedora
> 3. At some point, ELN branched to new CentOS Stream
> 4. ... a year or so of CentOS Stream development in public ...
> 5. RHEL Beta forked from that, released
> 6. Work on RHEL updates visible in CentOS Stream
> 7. Updates appear in CentOS Stream
> 8. Updates released to RHEL
>
> Note that with CentOS Stream 10 / RHEL 10, step 3 here will _maintain git
> history from Fedora, which is a big improvement in preserving all of the
> incredible, valuable work from Fedora contributors.
>
> All of this is the exact opposite of Red Hat preparing to make some new base
> for RHEL. Additionally, this model provides a clean path for
> Red-Hat-opinionated decisions to differ from those we make from Fedora. Take
> BTRFS as an example. Or, the increase in CPU baseline. Like this:

Matthew, this is a great summary and also the understanding I currently have. 
It might be a good thing if this information lives in a more permanent place 
that I can refer people to. Perhaps something on Fedora's documentation about 
the Enterprise Linux ecosystem or a blogpost on either the Fedora or RedHat 
blogs?

Regards,

Simon
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: CentOS Stream, RHEL, and Fedora [was Re: What is Fedora?]

2023-06-23 Thread Ian Laurie via devel


On 6/22/23 19:01, Matthew Miller wrote:

Sure, but... that's the _opposite_ of the direction things are going.


Awesome post.

--
Ian Laurie
FAS: nixuser | IRC: nixuser
TZ: Australia/Sydney
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: What is Fedora?

2023-06-22 Thread Germano Massullo


22/06/23 11:06, Matthew Miller wrote:

On Thu, Jun 22, 2023 at 08:44:13AM -, Michael J Gruber wrote:

In the specific case of RHEL srpms, it makes life harder for EPEL
packagers because you can't look at the source easily when they are
problems between RHEL and EPEL packages. It matches well with RH's
standard of shipping libraries without headers etc - it is easier for them
and limits the scope of support contracts but makes upstream's life
harder.

EPEL packagers should have easy access to RHEL through the no-cost
subscription program.


Why should we keep contributing to EPEL? To be forced to use 16 free 
RHEL instances maximum? What is the advantage for us volunteer contributors?
I mean, we did not do it for personal advantage, we did it to help us 
each other within the Enterprise Linux distros community, but this Red 
Hat move will kill the Enterprise Linux distros community, leaving only 
with RHEL, which is mostly a paid subscription distribution, let's call 
things with their proper name

___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: CentOS Stream, RHEL, and Fedora [was Re: What is Fedora?]

2023-06-22 Thread Josh Boyer

On Thu, Jun 22, 2023 at 5:02 AM Matthew Miller  wrote:
>
> >> ELN is a build of (some) Fedora packages with EL-specific options, so
> >> it requires Fedora.
> > ELN can exist off an internal non fedora tree. Just depends who is
> > updating the tree.
>
> Sure, but... that's the _opposite_ of the direction things are going.
> Previously, what happened to make a major RHEL release was:
>
> 1. Some Fedora Linux Release -> an internal bootstrap
> 2. ...  a year or so of secret work ...
> 3. RHEL Beta
> 4. RHEL Release
> 5. CentOS Linux rebuild
> 6. Internal RHEL build process, internal work on minor release
> 7. RHEL updates appear in publiuc
> 8. CentOS Linux rebuilds of those.
>
> There's no connection to Fedora beyond the intial fork, and a lot of work
> done inside Red Hat without any transparency.
>
>
> Now, CentOS Stream brings that to the surface:
>
> 1. Fedora Rawhide continually updated
> 2. ELN maintained in parallel, as part of Fedora
> 3. At some point, ELN branched to new CentOS Stream
> 4. ... a year or so of CentOS Stream development in public ...
> 5. RHEL Beta forked from that, released
> 6. Work on RHEL updates visible in CentOS Stream
> 7. Updates appear in CentOS Stream
> 8. Updates released to RHEL
>
> Note that with CentOS Stream 10 / RHEL 10, step 3 here will _maintain git
> history from Fedora, which is a big improvement in preserving all of the
> incredible, valuable work from Fedora contributors.
>
> All of this is the exact opposite of Red Hat preparing to make some new base
> for RHEL. Additionally, this model provides a clean path for
> Red-Hat-opinionated decisions to differ from those we make from Fedora. Take
> BTRFS as an example. Or, the increase in CPU baseline. Like this:
>
>
> Fedora Linux: Community Space
> -
>
> * Community engineering decisions
> * No special code privileges due to your employer
> * Community-run infrastructure with RH investment, significant resources
>   from Amazon, contributions from other companies
> * Community quality engineering with RH investment
> * Community support
> * No cost
>
>
> CentOS Stream: Shared Space
> ---
>
> * Red Hat Engineering decisions with community input
> * Pull requests from the community, approval from Red Hat engineers
> * Red Hat-provided and maintained infrastructure
> * Red Hat quality engineering with partner and community involvement
> * Community support
> * no cost
>
>
> Red Hat Enterprise Linux: Product Space
> ---
>
> * Red Hat Engineering decisions with customer input
> * Red Hat engineers and only RH engineers do the work
> * Red Hat infrastructure
> * Red Hat quality engineering (mostly done in Stream, though)
> * Enterprise support
> * Subscription, including low- and no-cost options
>
>
> Previously, we had a whole convoluted thing which people tried to describe
> in terms of MC Escher paintings. This is far better, and Fedora is in a
> better place. In the earlier setup, CentOS _was_ sometimes positioned as a
> competitor (although generally, those of us working in the actual Fedora and
> CentOS communities didn't have any interest in playing that game.)

Agree with Matthew fully here.  We've been working rather hard
internally to adjust the development process for RHEL to be more
collaborative and open than it ever has before.

josh
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: What is Fedora?

2023-06-22 Thread Simon de Vlieger

On Thu, Jun 22, 2023, at 6:32 PM, Ralf Corsépius wrote:

> But is Red Hat still commited to open source and to the freedom of software?
>
> I feel no and feel cheated and betrayed.

Hey Ralf,

why do you feel that way? The sources are still available both upstream 
(CentOS) and downstream (albeit behind a login wall or through your installed 
RHEL).

Regards,

Simon
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: What is Fedora?

2023-06-22 Thread Ralf Corsépius




Am 22.06.23 um 16:08 schrieb Stephen Gallagher:

On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 4:26 PM Gerald Henriksen  wrote:


On Wed, 21 Jun 2023 21:06:40 +0100, you wrote:


Hi all,

Obviously many will have seen:

https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/furthering-evolution-centos-stream

and see, where EL (contributors like you of fedora/EPEL) have been knocked down:

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2215299

Let us face it our efforts with the Fedora project are not valued and it is a 
means nothing to the
new corporate IBM/Red Hat enterprise systems that we have to struggle to get 
access to srpms, to
make a community. What is community now to Red Hat?


My interpretation of the blog post, combined with recent actions
towards Fedora by Red Hat, is that Red Hat now views CentOS Stream as
the new "Fedora" for basing future versions of RHEL.


Just to interject, this is an incorrect interpretation. 


But is Red Hat still commited to open source and to the freedom of software?

I feel no and feel cheated and betrayed.


Ralf
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: What is Fedora?

2023-06-22 Thread Stephen Gallagher

On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 5:46 PM Philip Wyett  wrote:
>
> On Wed, 2023-06-21 at 17:39 -0400, Ben Cotton wrote:
> > On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 5:09 PM Philip Wyett  
> > wrote:
> >
> > > It has much to do. Fedora is a community apparently Red Hat no longer 
> > > needs. The now ELN
> > > backend
> > > can satisfy pre testing and could make fedora redundant.
> >
> > ELN is a build of (some) Fedora packages with EL-specific options, so
> > it requires Fedora.
> >
> >
>
> ELN can exist off an internal non fedora tree. Just depends who is updating 
> the tree.

Literally anything CAN happen. However Fedora ELN without Fedora
Rawhide would be just CentOS Stream and therefore redundant. The fact
that Fedora ELN continues to see significant support from Red Hat
(they essentially pay several people to work on it full-time) should
make it clear that it has value.
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: What is Fedora?

2023-06-22 Thread Stephen Gallagher

On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 4:26 PM Gerald Henriksen  wrote:
>
> On Wed, 21 Jun 2023 21:06:40 +0100, you wrote:
>
> >Hi all,
> >
> >Obviously many will have seen:
> >
> >https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/furthering-evolution-centos-stream
> >
> >and see, where EL (contributors like you of fedora/EPEL) have been knocked 
> >down:
> >
> >https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2215299
> >
> >Let us face it our efforts with the Fedora project are not valued and it is 
> >a means nothing to the
> >new corporate IBM/Red Hat enterprise systems that we have to struggle to get 
> >access to srpms, to
> >make a community. What is community now to Red Hat?
>
> My interpretation of the blog post, combined with recent actions
> towards Fedora by Red Hat, is that Red Hat now views CentOS Stream as
> the new "Fedora" for basing future versions of RHEL.

Just to interject, this is an incorrect interpretation. Red Hat is
still highly committed to Fedora (as evidenced by the continued
support for Fedora ELN as the integration path from Rawhide to CentOS
Stream).
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: What is Fedora?

2023-06-22 Thread Aleksandra Fedorova


On 6/21/23 22:26, Gerald Henriksen wrote:

On Wed, 21 Jun 2023 21:06:40 +0100, you wrote:


Hi all,

Obviously many will have seen:

https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/furthering-evolution-centos-stream

and see, where EL (contributors like you of fedora/EPEL) have been knocked down:

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2215299

Let us face it our efforts with the Fedora project are not valued and it is a 
means nothing to the
new corporate IBM/Red Hat enterprise systems that we have to struggle to get 
access to srpms, to
make a community. What is community now to Red Hat?


My interpretation of the blog post, combined with recent actions
towards Fedora by Red Hat, is that Red Hat now views CentOS Stream as
the new "Fedora" for basing future versions of RHEL.


CentOS Stream topic is still confusing to many, thus I am going to use 
the opportunity to mention two talks which I have provided at FOSDEM 
2022 [1] and Open Infra Summit 22 [2] on the matter:


[1] 
https://archive.fosdem.org/2022/schedule/event/centos_stream_stable_and_continuous/
[2] 
https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/centos-stream-talk-at-openinfra-summit/40045/1


I also have a leaflet version [3] for those who prefer text.

[3] https://gitlab.com/bookwar/centos-leaflet/-/blob/main/centos-leaflet.pdf



Part of the confusion comes from the fact that people refer to upstream 
development, Fedora development and CentOS/RHEL development using just 
one word - development, while in reality these are three very different 
activities, and all of them are required for the RHEL existence.


You can not replace upstream with RHEL development, you would have to 
create new upstream for that. The same way you can not replace Fedora 
development with RHEL/CentOS Stream development, it is a very different 
thing and you would need to create it.


The second part comes from thinking of CentOS Stream as something in the 
middle, between Fedora and RHEL. CentOS Stream is a rebuild of RHEL. It 
is a rebuild of exactly RHEL sources taken from the same git tree as 
RHEL builds take those sources. It is not a middle - it is RHEL.




So let's look at the sources story closely:

1) How it was before Stream:

there was an internal git tree. RHEL Engineers would commit RHEL changes 
to that tree, changes would be built into RPM and SRPM. On release, RPM 
and SRPM would be published for RHEL customers. On that release date 
CentOS engineers would take the published SRPM, unpack it, and upload 
the content to the centos git repo.


So CentOS git essentially contained the "exploded SRPMS". No git history 
was available.


CentOS Engineer then would go to CentOS Koji and build the CentOS 
package from that exploded source


2) How it was after Stream but Before the announcement:

There is a public git tree on GitLab.com [4] RHEL Engineers commit 
changes to it. RHEL engineers build CentOS package in public Stream Koji 
_and_ RHEL package internally from the same git commit. CentOS package 
becomes public, RHEL package goes into RHEL repository.


[4] https://gitlab.com/redhat/centos-stream/rpms/glibc

As soon as RHEL package is released, the SRPM for a RHEL package becomes 
available. CentOS Engineer would take that SRPM, unpack it and upload 
the content to CentOS Git.


But the CentOS package for that RHEL SRPM has already been built weeks ago.

So now we have CentOS package, which is available for weeks in Koji, its 
sources available for the same two weeks on GitLab [4], with proper git 
history, MR history, and test history. And then a there is a second set 
of CentOS sources (exploded rpms, no history), which are not really 
CentOS sources anymore, because CentOS doesn't build anything from them.


3) So what happened?

- CentOS Engineers will not be producing that git repo of exploded SRPMs 
anymore because there is no need for them in CentOS project.


- Red Hat recommends to take RHEL sources from CentOS Stream 
repositories because that is the actual source from which RHEL packages 
are built by RHEL Engineers.


Can you still get access to SRPMs and create exploded sources repo - 
Yes. But there is no practical reason for Red Hat or for CentOS Project 
to maintain such a service.


There is no change in Fedora or with anything related to Fedora.

--
Aleksandra Fedorova,
member of Fedora Council
RHEL/CentOS Strem CI Engineer
bookwar on Matrix


___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To

Re: What is Fedora?

2023-06-22 Thread Michal Schorm

I'm a Red Hat employed engineer, working on all Fedora, CentOS Stream and RHEL.
This is what each means for me in particular (but should also be
applicable in general) in practice:

* RHEL - only when I'm bound by some legal requirement (embargo, etc.)
I do work 'RHEL only' (not visible in CentOS stream).
   In practice, such work is expected to be seen in CentOS Stream once
the legal barrier falls / expires.

* CentOS Stream - all work (except abovementioned) for RHEL is done here.
   The code has been available here (for 2 years already for C9S):
https://gitlab.com/redhat/centos-stream/
Are you missing anything? (codebase-wise)
This means my work on RHEL is visible unlike ever before. Open to
submissions via merge requests
Also merge requests where I develop changes are open to
examination during my development of them. (unlike anytime before)

* Fedora - unlike RHEL or CentOS, this is the place where I can
develop new features.
  I don't have this space downstream.
  So tuning packaging, trying out various enhancements, adopting big
upstream changes, packing latest greatest upstream releases.
  All that will be branched to form a new RHEL one day. This is the
only way for me to introduce big changes.
  As I see it, both RHEL and Fedora profit from that to maximum.

And I don't expect this relationship to go away anytime soon.

However I might have misunderstood the core of this discussion.

--

Michal Schorm
Software Engineer
Core Services - Databases Team
Red Hat

--

On Thu, Jun 22, 2023 at 11:39 AM Miroslav Suchý  wrote:
>
> Dne 22. 06. 23 v 10:44 Michael J Gruber napsal(a):
> > In each case, the way it was done and communicated was literally begging 
> > for bad press.
> > ...
> >
> > So, the signal is either "we don't care about our upstream" or "we do not 
> > understand upstream's importance and concerns".
>
> None of the last two. It is first one out of these three: wrongly 
> communicated and begging for bad press.
>
> I think that RH engineers are pretty bad in communicating things. Me included.
>
> --
> Miroslav Suchy, RHCA
> Red Hat, Manager, Packit and CPT, #brno, #fedora-buildsys
> ___
> devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
> Fedora Code of Conduct: 
> https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
> List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> List Archives: 
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> Do not reply to spam, report it: 
> https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: What is Fedora?

2023-06-22 Thread Miroslav Suchý


Dne 22. 06. 23 v 10:44 Michael J Gruber napsal(a):

In each case, the way it was done and communicated was literally begging for 
bad press.
...

So, the signal is either "we don't care about our upstream" or "we do not understand 
upstream's importance and concerns".


None of the last two. It is first one out of these three: wrongly communicated 
and begging for bad press.

I think that RH engineers are pretty bad in communicating things. Me included.

--
Miroslav Suchy, RHCA
Red Hat, Manager, Packit and CPT, #brno, #fedora-buildsys
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: What is Fedora?

2023-06-22 Thread Matthew Miller

On Thu, Jun 22, 2023 at 08:44:13AM -, Michael J Gruber wrote:
> In the specific case of RHEL srpms, it makes life harder for EPEL
> packagers because you can't look at the source easily when they are
> problems between RHEL and EPEL packages. It matches well with RH's
> standard of shipping libraries without headers etc - it is easier for them
> and limits the scope of support contracts but makes upstream's life
> harder.

EPEL packagers should have easy access to RHEL through the no-cost
subscription program. Or, reasonably easy -- I'm aware that the developer
portal hoops are more... hoopy... than would be idea. But once set up, it
shouldn't be difficult. If you _are_ finding rough spots in that, I can
raise the issues and see if we can make things beter.

-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

CentOS Stream, RHEL, and Fedora [was Re: What is Fedora?]

2023-06-22 Thread Matthew Miller

>> ELN is a build of (some) Fedora packages with EL-specific options, so
>> it requires Fedora.
> ELN can exist off an internal non fedora tree. Just depends who is
> updating the tree.

Sure, but... that's the _opposite_ of the direction things are going.
Previously, what happened to make a major RHEL release was:

1. Some Fedora Linux Release -> an internal bootstrap
2. ...  a year or so of secret work ... 
3. RHEL Beta
4. RHEL Release   
5. CentOS Linux rebuild
6. Internal RHEL build process, internal work on minor release
7. RHEL updates appear in publiuc
8. CentOS Linux rebuilds of those.

There's no connection to Fedora beyond the intial fork, and a lot of work
done inside Red Hat without any transparency.


Now, CentOS Stream brings that to the surface:

1. Fedora Rawhide continually updated
2. ELN maintained in parallel, as part of Fedora
3. At some point, ELN branched to new CentOS Stream
4. ... a year or so of CentOS Stream development in public ...
5. RHEL Beta forked from that, released
6. Work on RHEL updates visible in CentOS Stream
7. Updates appear in CentOS Stream
8. Updates released to RHEL

Note that with CentOS Stream 10 / RHEL 10, step 3 here will _maintain git
history from Fedora, which is a big improvement in preserving all of the
incredible, valuable work from Fedora contributors.

All of this is the exact opposite of Red Hat preparing to make some new base
for RHEL. Additionally, this model provides a clean path for
Red-Hat-opinionated decisions to differ from those we make from Fedora. Take
BTRFS as an example. Or, the increase in CPU baseline. Like this:


Fedora Linux: Community Space
-

* Community engineering decisions
* No special code privileges due to your employer
* Community-run infrastructure with RH investment, significant resources
  from Amazon, contributions from other companies
* Community quality engineering with RH investment
* Community support
* No cost


CentOS Stream: Shared Space
---

* Red Hat Engineering decisions with community input
* Pull requests from the community, approval from Red Hat engineers
* Red Hat-provided and maintained infrastructure 
* Red Hat quality engineering with partner and community involvement
* Community support
* no cost


Red Hat Enterprise Linux: Product Space
---

* Red Hat Engineering decisions with customer input
* Red Hat engineers and only RH engineers do the work
* Red Hat infrastructure
* Red Hat quality engineering (mostly done in Stream, though)
* Enterprise support
* Subscription, including low- and no-cost options 


Previously, we had a whole convoluted thing which people tried to describe
in terms of MC Escher paintings. This is far better, and Fedora is in a
better place. In the earlier setup, CentOS _was_ sometimes positioned as a
competitor (although generally, those of us working in the actual Fedora and
CentOS communities didn't have any interest in playing that game.) 



-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: What is Fedora?

2023-06-22 Thread Michael J Gruber

> On 6/22/23 06:21, Gordon Messmer wrote:
> 
> That's how I understand it well and I'm a bit confused what's the
> "fuss" about. The git.centos.org mirrored sources that were used to build
> CentOS. Since CentOS is no longer supported, and we have the CentOS Stream, 
> the same is
> true - the sources are still available, just at different location [0]. So 
> this
> doesn't seem like RH is "locking things down", just getting rid of things
> that are not needed anymore.
> 
> Note that I'm in a no way endorsing the change, I'm just trying to understand
> what's the big deal (if there's any).
> 
> [0] https://gitlab.com/redhat/centos-stream/rpms
> [1] https://vault.centos.org/centos/8-stream/

The big deal is that it sends wrong signals at the wrong time. Within the last 
few weeks, we had out of the blue (pun intended):
- Lay-off of the Fedora Program Manager
- Dropping LO packages and dependencies the hard way (orphan first, announce 
later when the rubbles are crumbling)
- Retreating from GPL's source distribution requirement to the bare minimum (or 
less, I'm no lawyer)

In each case, the way it was done and communicated was literally begging for 
bad press.

In the specific case of RHEL srpms, it makes life harder for EPEL packagers 
because you can't look at the source easily when they are problems between RHEL 
and EPEL packages. It matches well with RH's standard of shipping libraries 
without headers etc - it is easier for them and limits the scope of support 
contracts but makes upstream's life harder.

So, the signal is either "we don't care about our upstream" or "we do not 
understand upstream's importance and concerns".

And that is why packagers may consider dropping EPEL branches and let RH pick 
from Fedora what they want - at the expense of having to support it themselves. 
That will reduce RHEL to a pure enterprise distribution without community. Is 
that what their customers want?

Groundhog day.
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: What is Fedora?

2023-06-22 Thread Vitaly Zaitsev via devel


On 22/06/2023 10:11, Daniel P. Berrangé wrote:

Nothing described in that blog post above changes this process, so
what's written there doesn't have any direct impact on Fedora.


Yet.

--
Sincerely,
  Vitaly Zaitsev (vit...@easycoding.org)
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: What is Fedora?

2023-06-22 Thread Miroslav Suchý


Dne 22. 06. 23 v 0:11 Philip Wyett napsal(a):

One mage saying Download/Signup

One image when you click on download at no cost and you need to login or create 
an account.

Beauty of using clean VM's

https://pasteboard.co/eCfDDb13IIOL.png

https://pasteboard.co/AXwSb6XWmeTN.png


So you create account and proceed. What is the problem?

--
Miroslav Suchy, RHCA
Red Hat, Manager, Packit and CPT, #brno, #fedora-buildsys
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: What is Fedora?

2023-06-22 Thread Daniel P . Berrangé

On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 04:26:35PM -0400, Gerald Henriksen wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Jun 2023 21:06:40 +0100, you wrote:
> 
> >Hi all,
> >
> >Obviously many will have seen:
> >
> >https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/furthering-evolution-centos-stream
> >
> >and see, where EL (contributors like you of fedora/EPEL) have been knocked 
> >down:
> >
> >https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2215299
> >
> >Let us face it our efforts with the Fedora project are not valued and it is 
> >a means nothing to the
> >new corporate IBM/Red Hat enterprise systems that we have to struggle to get 
> >access to srpms, to
> >make a community. What is community now to Red Hat?
> 
> My interpretation of the blog post, combined with recent actions
> towards Fedora by Red Hat, is that Red Hat now views CentOS Stream as
> the new "Fedora" for basing future versions of RHEL.

IMHO this is a mis-reading of the above blog / general situation. The
flow of development for future versions of RHEL is absolutely still
originating in Fedora, where Rawhide feeds into ELN (Enterprise Linux
Next), which then becomes the next major RHEL release.

Fedora -> ELN -> RHEL-$NEXT

Nothing described in that blog post above changes this process, so
what's written there doesn't have any direct impact on Fedora. If you
look at rawhide / eln branches in Fedora dist-git today you can see
ongoing changes in many packages that will feed into RHEL-10. CentOS
Stream is *not* the new Fedora. Fedora remains critical to future RHEL.

CentOS Stream is the development path *within* a major RHEL release
eg

   CentOS Stream 9 --->
 |   ||
 V   VV
 RHEL-9.1.0   RHEL-9.2.0  RHEL-9.x.0
 |   ||
 |   ||
 V   VV

The main effect of the blog post I see is that the bug fixes / CVEs
that go into RHEL-9.1.z, 9.2.z, 9.x.z  streams are no longer going
to be freely available - only the initial content of each poinmt
release in available from CentOS Stream.

This doesn't impact Fedora, but will certainly impact the various
RHEL rebuilds whether community based (AlmaLinux, Rocky Linux),
or fully commercial (Oracle OEL). Those distros can still provide
the initial point releases, but will have to do all the work to
figure out backports for bug fixes/CVEs/etc within the release.
This is going to be a serious burden for those distros.

With regards,
Daniel
-- 
|: https://berrange.com  -o-https://www.flickr.com/photos/dberrange :|
|: https://libvirt.org -o-https://fstop138.berrange.com :|
|: https://entangle-photo.org-o-https://www.instagram.com/dberrange :|
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: What is Fedora?

2023-06-22 Thread František Šumšal

On 6/22/23 06:21, Gordon Messmer wrote:

On 2023-06-21 13:06, Philip Wyett wrote:

https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/furthering-evolution-centos-stream
...
I see an impasse here. Why contribute to fedora when Red Hat will lock it down
in other products?

I don't think this is a major change from the status quo.

In the past, Red Hat has published a subset of the git repositories used to
create RHEL. They have published spec and patches used to create the current
minor release of each major, but nothing from the EUS or SAP support periods.
That is, they haven't published any updates to any branch other than the latest
branch they publish. There is only one available branch at any time.

Now that Stream is available, the same thing is (apparently) true. At least,
as best as I understand their announcement. There will be just one available
branch, and that branch will contain the spec and patches used to create the
latest packages.

That's how I understand it well and I'm a bit confused what's the "fuss" about. The
git.centos.org mirrored sources that were used to build CentOS. Since CentOS is no longer
supported, and we have the CentOS Stream, the same is true - the sources are still available, just
at different location [0]. So this doesn't seem like RH is "locking things down", just
getting rid of things that are not needed anymore.

Note that I'm in a no way endorsing the change, I'm just trying to understand
what's the big deal (if there's any).

[0] https://gitlab.com/redhat/centos-stream/rpms
[1] https://vault.centos.org/centos/8-stream/

--
Frantisek Sumsal
GPG key ID: 0xFB738CE27B634E4B
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct:
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives:
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it:
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: What is Fedora?

2023-06-21 Thread Gordon Messmer


On 2023-06-21 13:26, Gerald Henriksen wrote:

My interpretation of the blog post, combined with recent actions
towards Fedora by Red Hat, is that Red Hat now views CentOS Stream as
the new "Fedora" for basing future versions of RHEL.



I think that's ... kind of true, in a good way.

I don't know if you were around at the time, but before Red Hat Linux 
split in to RHEL and Fedora, users had long wanted the ability to 
contribute to the distribution.  The split created a community 
distribution that developers could join, and that distribution became a 
much larger, high quality distribution.


CentOS Stream is a stable LTS, very similar to other widely used stable 
LTS releases.  Developers can open pull requests for appropriate 
changes.  Red Hat accepts bug reports related to the product.


All of this is a huge improvement over the old CentOS process.
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: What is Fedora?

2023-06-21 Thread Gordon Messmer


On 2023-06-21 13:06, Philip Wyett wrote:

https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/furthering-evolution-centos-stream
...
I see an impasse here. Why contribute to fedora when Red Hat will lock it down 
in other products?



I don't think this is a major change from the status quo.

In the past, Red Hat has published a subset of the git repositories used 
to create RHEL.  They have published spec and patches used to create the 
current minor release of each major, but nothing from the EUS or SAP 
support periods.  That is, they haven't published any updates to any 
branch other than the latest branch they publish.  There is only one 
available branch at any time.


Now that Stream is available, the same thing is (apparently) true.  At 
least, as best as I understand their announcement. There will be just 
one available branch, and that branch will contain the spec and patches 
used to create the latest packages.

___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: What is Fedora?

On Wed, 2023-06-21 at 17:18 -0400, JT wrote:
> 
> >  How are you downloading RHEL ISO images?
> 
> I already sent you the URL in a prior response:  
> https://developers.redhat.com/products/rhel/download
> 
> >  Please do not tell me to take a deep breath and relax. Show some respect.
> 
> I am being respectful, I've been trying to explain to you that this isn't 
> anything to get
> stressed out over. I've calmly addressed the questions you've raised.
> What you are worried about is not possible because of the legal requirements 
> of the GPL which Red
> Hat has accepted by using GPL licensed code.
> 
> You're stressing out over a non issue... you dont need to stress over this... 
> aka... you can
> relax... it's going to be ok.
> 
> If me addressing your concerns and telling you that you dont need to worry is 
> disrespectful...
> well... I'm sorry that you think I'm being disrespectful.  I'm trying to make 
> you feel better by
> explaining that you dont need to be worried. 
> 

I did say I tried this, but nobody is listening...

Attached:

One mage saying Download/Signup

One image when you click on download at no cost and you need to login or create 
an account.

Beauty of using clean VM's

https://pasteboard.co/eCfDDb13IIOL.png

https://pasteboard.co/AXwSb6XWmeTN.png

Regards

Phil

Associations:

* Debian Maintainer (DM)
* Fedora/EPEL Maintainer.
* Contributor member of the AlmaLinux foundation.

WWW: https://kathenas.org

Buy Me a Coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/kathenasorg

Twitter: @kathenasorg

Instagram: @kathenasorg

IRC: kathenas

GPG: 724AA9B52F024C8B


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: What is Fedora?

There are mirrors online that you can pull from as well if you dont have an
account or know someone who has an account.  Or you can create a dev
account with a throw away email to get the ISOs.  I'll happily download any
ISO you want. :P
I know several people that their dev account is linked with their personal
gmail account, but I havent created a new dev account in a while so IDK if
they filter for domains.
Red Hat has even released instructions on how you can run your own mirror.
I believe you do need a RH login to access those instructions.
https://access.redhat.com/solutions/23016

Example sources:
https://archive.org/details/rhel-baseos-9.1-x86_64-dvd_202212
http://calipso.linux.it.umich.edu/pulp/isos/UM/Library/content/dist/rhel8/8/x86_64/baseos/iso/

If you're concerned about getting an ISO from anywhere other than
RedHat.com, then I'd suggest you sign up for a free account with a fresh
email account that is only used for your RH account.

At the end of the day, the source will always be available in some form,
Red Hat cannot violate the GPL without opening itself up to massive
lawsuits.

On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 5:27 PM Philip Wyett 
wrote:

> On Wed, 2023-06-21 at 17:18 -0400, JT wrote:
> >
> > >  How are you downloading RHEL ISO images?
> >
> > I already sent you the URL in a prior response:
> > https://developers.redhat.com/products/rhel/download
> >
> > >  Please do not tell me to take a deep breath and relax. Show some
> respect.
> >
> > I am being respectful, I've been trying to explain to you that this
> isn't anything to get
> > stressed out over. I've calmly addressed the questions you've raised.
> > What you are worried about is not possible because of the legal
> requirements of the GPL which Red
> > Hat has accepted by using GPL licensed code.
> >
> > You're stressing out over a non issue... you dont need to stress over
> this... aka... you can
> > relax... it's going to be ok.
> >
> > If me addressing your concerns and telling you that you dont need to
> worry is disrespectful...
> > well... I'm sorry that you think I'm being disrespectful.  I'm trying to
> make you feel better by
> > explaining that you dont need to be worried.
> >
>
> I did say I tried this, but nobody is listening...
>
> Attached:
>
> One mage saying Download/Signup
>
> One image when you click on download at no cost and you need to login or
> create an account.
>
> Beauty of using clean VM's
>
> Regards
>
> Phil
>
> --
> *** Playing the game for the games own sake. ***
>
>
> Associations:
>
> * Debian Maintainer (DM)
> * Fedora/EPEL Maintainer.
> * Contributor member of the AlmaLinux foundation.
>
> WWW: https://kathenas.org
>
> Buy Me a Coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/kathenasorg
>
> Twitter: @kathenasorg
>
> Instagram: @kathenasorg
>
> IRC: kathenas
>
> GPG: 724AA9B52F024C8B
>
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: What is Fedora?

On Wed, 2023-06-21 at 17:39 -0400, Ben Cotton wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 5:09 PM Philip Wyett  
> wrote:
> 
> > It has much to do. Fedora is a community apparently Red Hat no longer 
> > needs. The now ELN
> > backend
> > can satisfy pre testing and could make fedora redundant.
> 
> ELN is a build of (some) Fedora packages with EL-specific options, so
> it requires Fedora.
> 
> 

ELN can exist off an internal non fedora tree. Just depends who is updating the 
tree.

Regards

Phil

-- 
*** Playing the game for the games own sake. ***


Associations:

* Debian Maintainer (DM)
* Fedora/EPEL Maintainer.
* Contributor member of the AlmaLinux foundation.

WWW: https://kathenas.org

Buy Me a Coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/kathenasorg

Twitter: @kathenasorg

Instagram: @kathenasorg

IRC: kathenas

GPG: 724AA9B52F024C8B


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: What is Fedora?

2023-06-21 Thread Ben Cotton

On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 5:09 PM Philip Wyett  wrote:

> It has much to do. Fedora is a community apparently Red Hat no longer needs. 
> The now ELN backend
> can satisfy pre testing and could make fedora redundant.

ELN is a build of (some) Fedora packages with EL-specific options, so
it requires Fedora.

-- 
Ben Cotton (he/him)
TZ=America/Indiana/Indianapolis
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Bcotton
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: What is Fedora?

>  How are you downloading RHEL ISO images?

I already sent you the URL in a prior response:
https://developers.redhat.com/products/rhel/download

>  Please do not tell me to take a deep breath and relax. Show some respect.

I am being respectful, I've been trying to explain to you that this isn't
anything to get stressed out over. I've calmly addressed the questions
you've raised.
What you are worried about is not possible because of the legal
requirements of the GPL which Red Hat has accepted by using GPL licensed
code.

You're stressing out over a non issue... you dont need to stress over
this... aka... you can relax... it's going to be ok.

If me addressing your concerns and telling you that you dont need to worry
is disrespectful... well... I'm sorry that you think I'm being
disrespectful.  I'm trying to make you feel better by explaining that you
dont need to be worried.





On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 5:12 PM Philip Wyett 
wrote:

> On Wed, 2023-06-21 at 17:07 -0400, JT wrote:
> > >  Who says that developer account will be available soon, Have Red Hat
> made a commitment to keep
> > it?
> > > People want to update a system and not fart about, updating via ISO or
> installing a new
> > system every 6 months is a joke.
> >
> > You can download ISOs without a dev account.  Someone could easily get
> the SRPMS as they are
> > entitled to have and compile them and make a 3rd party repo that
> everyone could add and update
> > from, so people wouldn't have to re-install.  My point is that Red Hat
> is not able to lock down
> > the code because of the GPL.  There will always be a way around anything
> they try to put in
> > place.
> >
> > People in the FLOSS world really care about this stuff and are also
> really stubborn... if Red Hat
> > tries to do anything like this, there will be thousands of people that
> will come together to work
> > around everything Red Hat attempts to put in place to block people.
> >
> > Don't worry, take a deep breath and relax, the code will remain open
> source and it will remain
> > freely available.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 4:56 PM Philip Wyett 
> wrote:
> > > On Wed, 2023-06-21 at 16:49 -0400, JT wrote:
> > > > >  I believe the GPL asks you never have to make agreement to access
> GPL code.
> > > >
> > > > Correct.  Per the GPL if you have the binary you have a legal right
> to the code.
> > > > Also the GPL does contain clauses that stipulate that outside
> agreements cannot excuse anyone
> > > > from the conditions of the license, see the No Surrender of Others'
> Freedom section.
> > > >
> > > > Also keep in mind that you can download the RHEL ISOs for free
> without a dev license from
> > > this
> > > > page: https://developers.redhat.com/products/rhel/download  You
> can't update the packages,
> > > but
> > > > you can install that version of RHEL on your computer and use it.
> So anyone grabbing that
> > > ISO
> > > > has legal right to the source code for the base system.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Who says that developer account will be available soon, Have Red Hat
> made a commitment to keep
> > > it?
> > >
> > > People want to update a system and not fart about, updating via ISO or
> installing a new system
> > > every 6 months is a joke.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > Phil
> > >
>
> Hi,
>
> How are you downloading RHEL ISO images?
>
> Please do not tell me to take a deep breath and relax. Show some respect.
>
> Regards
>
> Phil
>
> --
> *** Playing the game for the games own sake. ***
>
>
> Associations:
>
> * Debian Maintainer (DM)
> * Fedora/EPEL Maintainer.
> * Contributor member of the AlmaLinux foundation.
>
> WWW: https://kathenas.org
>
> Buy Me a Coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/kathenasorg
>
> Twitter: @kathenasorg
>
> Instagram: @kathenasorg
>
> IRC: kathenas
>
> GPG: 724AA9B52F024C8B
>
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: What is Fedora?

On Wed, 2023-06-21 at 17:07 -0400, JT wrote:
> >  Who says that developer account will be available soon, Have Red Hat made 
> > a commitment to keep
> it?
> > People want to update a system and not fart about, updating via ISO or 
> > installing a new
> system every 6 months is a joke.
> 
> You can download ISOs without a dev account.  Someone could easily get the 
> SRPMS as they are
> entitled to have and compile them and make a 3rd party repo that everyone 
> could add and update
> from, so people wouldn't have to re-install.  My point is that Red Hat is not 
> able to lock down
> the code because of the GPL.  There will always be a way around anything they 
> try to put in
> place.
> 
> People in the FLOSS world really care about this stuff and are also really 
> stubborn... if Red Hat
> tries to do anything like this, there will be thousands of people that will 
> come together to work
> around everything Red Hat attempts to put in place to block people.
> 
> Don't worry, take a deep breath and relax, the code will remain open source 
> and it will remain
> freely available.  
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 4:56 PM Philip Wyett  
> wrote:
> > On Wed, 2023-06-21 at 16:49 -0400, JT wrote:
> > > >  I believe the GPL asks you never have to make agreement to access GPL 
> > > > code.
> > > 
> > > Correct.  Per the GPL if you have the binary you have a legal right to 
> > > the code.  
> > > Also the GPL does contain clauses that stipulate that outside agreements 
> > > cannot excuse anyone
> > > from the conditions of the license, see the No Surrender of Others' 
> > > Freedom section.
> > > 
> > > Also keep in mind that you can download the RHEL ISOs for free without a 
> > > dev license from
> > this
> > > page: https://developers.redhat.com/products/rhel/download  You can't 
> > > update the packages,
> > but
> > > you can install that version of RHEL on your computer and use it.  So 
> > > anyone grabbing that
> > ISO
> > > has legal right to the source code for the base system.
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > Who says that developer account will be available soon, Have Red Hat made a 
> > commitment to keep
> > it?
> > 
> > People want to update a system and not fart about, updating via ISO or 
> > installing a new system
> > every 6 months is a joke.
> > 
> > Regards
> > 
> > Phil
> > 

Hi,

How are you downloading RHEL ISO images?

Please do not tell me to take a deep breath and relax. Show some respect.

Regards

Phil

-- 
*** Playing the game for the games own sake. ***


Associations:

* Debian Maintainer (DM)
* Fedora/EPEL Maintainer.
* Contributor member of the AlmaLinux foundation.

WWW: https://kathenas.org

Buy Me a Coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/kathenasorg

Twitter: @kathenasorg

Instagram: @kathenasorg

IRC: kathenas

GPG: 724AA9B52F024C8B


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: What is Fedora?

On Wed, 2023-06-21 at 16:58 -0400, Ben Cotton wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 4:07 PM Philip Wyett  
> wrote:
> > Let us face it our efforts with the Fedora project are not valued and it is 
> > a means nothing to
> > the
> > new corporate IBM/Red Hat enterprise systems that we have to struggle to 
> > get access to srpms,
> > to
> > make a community. What is community now to Red Hat?
> 
> I'm not particularly inclined to feel favorably toward Red Hat, but I
> don't see what the availability of RHEL srpms has to do with Fedora.
> We're upstream of RHEL.
> 
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 4:26 PM Gerald Henriksen  wrote:
> > My interpretation of the blog post, combined with recent actions
> > towards Fedora by Red Hat, is that Red Hat now views CentOS Stream as
> > the new "Fedora" for basing future versions of RHEL.
> 
> Not really. Fedora is the basis for new RHEL major versions (e.g. RHEL
> 10). CentOS Stream is the next RHEL minor version (9.X).
> 
> 

Hi Ben,

It has much to do. Fedora is a community apparently Red Hat no longer needs. 
The now ELN backend
can satisfy pre testing and could make fedora redundant.

Regards

Phil


WWW: https://kathenas.org

Buy Me a Coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/kathenasorg

Twitter: @kathenasorg

Instagram: @kathenasorg

IRC: kathenas

GPG: 724AA9B52F024C8B


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: What is Fedora?

>  Who says that developer account will be available soon, Have Red Hat
made a commitment to keep it?
> People want to update a system and not fart about, updating via ISO or
installing a new system every 6 months is a joke.

You can download ISOs without a dev account.  Someone could easily get the
SRPMS as they are entitled to have and compile them and make a 3rd party
repo that everyone could add and update from, so people wouldn't have to
re-install.  My point is that Red Hat is not able to lock down the code
because of the GPL.  There will always be a way around anything they try to
put in place.

People in the FLOSS world really care about this stuff and are also really
stubborn... if Red Hat tries to do anything like this, there will be
thousands of people that will come together to work around everything Red
Hat attempts to put in place to block people.

Don't worry, take a deep breath and relax, the code will remain open source
and it will remain freely available.



On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 4:56 PM Philip Wyett 
wrote:

> On Wed, 2023-06-21 at 16:49 -0400, JT wrote:
> > >  I believe the GPL asks you never have to make agreement to access GPL
> code.
> >
> > Correct.  Per the GPL if you have the binary you have a legal right to
> the code.
> > Also the GPL does contain clauses that stipulate that outside agreements
> cannot excuse anyone
> > from the conditions of the license, see the No Surrender of Others'
> Freedom section.
> >
> > Also keep in mind that you can download the RHEL ISOs for free without a
> dev license from this
> > page: https://developers.redhat.com/products/rhel/download  You can't
> update the packages, but
> > you can install that version of RHEL on your computer and use it.  So
> anyone grabbing that ISO
> > has legal right to the source code for the base system.
> >
> >
>
> Who says that developer account will be available soon, Have Red Hat made
> a commitment to keep it?
>
> People want to update a system and not fart about, updating via ISO or
> installing a new system
> every 6 months is a joke.
>
> Regards
>
> Phil
>
> --
> *** Playing the game for the games own sake. ***
>
>
> Associations:
>
> * Debian Maintainer (DM)
> * Fedora/EPEL Maintainer.
> * Contributor member of the AlmaLinux foundation.
>
> WWW: https://kathenas.org
>
> Buy Me a Coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/kathenasorg
>
> Twitter: @kathenasorg
>
> Instagram: @kathenasorg
>
> IRC: kathenas
>
> GPG: 724AA9B52F024C8B
>
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: What is Fedora?

On Wed, 2023-06-21 at 16:49 -0400, JT wrote:
> >  I believe the GPL asks you never have to make agreement to access GPL code.
> 
> Correct.  Per the GPL if you have the binary you have a legal right to the 
> code.  
> Also the GPL does contain clauses that stipulate that outside agreements 
> cannot excuse anyone
> from the conditions of the license, see the No Surrender of Others' Freedom 
> section.
> 
> Also keep in mind that you can download the RHEL ISOs for free without a dev 
> license from this
> page: https://developers.redhat.com/products/rhel/download  You can't update 
> the packages, but
> you can install that version of RHEL on your computer and use it.  So anyone 
> grabbing that ISO
> has legal right to the source code for the base system.
> 

I maybe wrong but even the ISO images require a Red Hat account. I know they do 
as I just tried via clean VM.

Regards

Phil

-- 
*** Playing the game for the games own sake. ***


Associations:

* Debian Maintainer (DM)
* Fedora/EPEL Maintainer.
* Contributor member of the AlmaLinux foundation.

WWW: https://kathenas.org

Buy Me a Coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/kathenasorg

Twitter: @kathenasorg

Instagram: @kathenasorg

IRC: kathenas

GPG: 724AA9B52F024C8B


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: What is Fedora?

2023-06-21 Thread Ben Cotton

On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 4:07 PM Philip Wyett  wrote:
>
> Let us face it our efforts with the Fedora project are not valued and it is a 
> means nothing to the
> new corporate IBM/Red Hat enterprise systems that we have to struggle to get 
> access to srpms, to
> make a community. What is community now to Red Hat?

I'm not particularly inclined to feel favorably toward Red Hat, but I
don't see what the availability of RHEL srpms has to do with Fedora.
We're upstream of RHEL.

On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 4:26 PM Gerald Henriksen  wrote:
>
> My interpretation of the blog post, combined with recent actions
> towards Fedora by Red Hat, is that Red Hat now views CentOS Stream as
> the new "Fedora" for basing future versions of RHEL.

Not really. Fedora is the basis for new RHEL major versions (e.g. RHEL
10). CentOS Stream is the next RHEL minor version (9.X).

-- 
Ben Cotton (he/him)
TZ=America/Indiana/Indianapolis
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Bcotton
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: What is Fedora?

On Wed, 2023-06-21 at 16:49 -0400, JT wrote:
> >  I believe the GPL asks you never have to make agreement to access GPL code.
> 
> Correct.  Per the GPL if you have the binary you have a legal right to the 
> code.  
> Also the GPL does contain clauses that stipulate that outside agreements 
> cannot excuse anyone
> from the conditions of the license, see the No Surrender of Others' Freedom 
> section.
> 
> Also keep in mind that you can download the RHEL ISOs for free without a dev 
> license from this
> page: https://developers.redhat.com/products/rhel/download  You can't update 
> the packages, but
> you can install that version of RHEL on your computer and use it.  So anyone 
> grabbing that ISO
> has legal right to the source code for the base system.
> 
> 

Who says that developer account will be available soon, Have Red Hat made a 
commitment to keep it?

People want to update a system and not fart about, updating via ISO or 
installing a new system
every 6 months is a joke.

Regards

Phil

-- 
*** Playing the game for the games own sake. ***


Associations:

* Debian Maintainer (DM)
* Fedora/EPEL Maintainer.
* Contributor member of the AlmaLinux foundation.

WWW: https://kathenas.org

Buy Me a Coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/kathenasorg

Twitter: @kathenasorg

Instagram: @kathenasorg

IRC: kathenas

GPG: 724AA9B52F024C8B


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: What is Fedora?

>  I believe the GPL asks you never have to make agreement to access GPL
code.

Correct.  Per the GPL if you have the binary you have a legal right to the
code.
Also the GPL does contain clauses that stipulate that outside agreements
cannot excuse anyone from the conditions of the license, see the No
Surrender of Others' Freedom section.

Also keep in mind that you can download the RHEL ISOs for free without a
dev license from this page:
https://developers.redhat.com/products/rhel/download  You can't update the
packages, but you can install that version of RHEL on your computer and use
it.  So anyone grabbing that ISO has legal right to the source code for the
base system.


On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 4:35 PM Philip Wyett 
wrote:

> On Wed, 2023-06-21 at 16:23 -0400, JT wrote:
> > Red Hat doesn't need to mention it.  It's a legal requirement of the
> GPL... anyone using the
> > binaries has legal right to the source code.
> >
> > As for Red Hat cancelling users accounts who pull the source build
> binaries and share it...
> > that'd probably land them in a lawsuit, because as long as that person
> who originally downloaded
> > the code has the binaries... they are legally entitled to the source for
> them for as long as they
> > have the binaries.
> >
> > Furthermore, anyone who shares a binary they build from RH sources...
> has a legal requirement to
> > share the source onto the next person.
> >
> > These are precisely the type of issues with the MIT/BSD license that
> Stallman wanted to address
> > with the GPL.
> >
> > Red Hat could terminate the dev license... and put RHEL entirely behind
> a paywall, but they have
> > not stated that they are doing so.  And I would imagine that they would
> get a ton of backlash if
> > they did considering that was how they addressed the reaction the
> CentOS/CentOS Stream change.
> > But even if they did that, they still have to provide source to anyone
> with the binaries.  So all
> > it would take is one person buying a license, and then releasing the
> code.
> > Even if Red Hat banned that account, there would just be another account
> to do the same thing
> > again. Red Hat would have to play whack-a-mole to try to stop people
> from doing that constantly.
> >
> >
> >
>
> Whack-a-mole is not what we want to play and we are aware of MIT and GPL
> licenses. What the
> community needs is a free source of entry. I believe the GPL asks you
> never have to make agreement
> to access GPL code. However Red Hat have not defined what a customer and
> partner is, but this
> requires having a Red Hat account which requires agreeing to terms etc. to
> access the srpms.
>
> Regards
>
> Phil
>
> --
> *** Playing the game for the games own sake. ***
>
>
> Associations:
>
> * Debian Maintainer (DM)
> * Fedora/EPEL Maintainer.
> * Contributor member of the AlmaLinux foundation.
>
> WWW: https://kathenas.org
>
> Buy Me a Coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/kathenasorg
>
> Twitter: @kathenasorg
>
> Instagram: @kathenasorg
>
> IRC: kathenas
>
> GPG: 724AA9B52F024C8B
>
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: What is Fedora?

On Wed, 2023-06-21 at 16:26 -0400, Gerald Henriksen wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Jun 2023 21:06:40 +0100, you wrote:
> 
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > Obviously many will have seen:
> > 
> > https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/furthering-evolution-centos-stream
> > 
> > and see, where EL (contributors like you of fedora/EPEL) have been knocked 
> > down:
> > 
> > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2215299
> > 
> > Let us face it our efforts with the Fedora project are not valued and it is 
> > a means nothing to
> > the
> > new corporate IBM/Red Hat enterprise systems that we have to struggle to 
> > get access to srpms,
> > to
> > make a community. What is community now to Red Hat?
> 
> My interpretation of the blog post, combined with recent actions
> towards Fedora by Red Hat, is that Red Hat now views CentOS Stream as
> the new "Fedora" for basing future versions of RHEL.
> 
> 

Hi,

Red Hat cannot do all the work that fedora does and CentOS stream is a staging 
post currently for
the break off that will become RHEL. This may change and fedora becomes a 
non-entity to be
discarded, but only Red Hat can tell us.

Regards

Phil

-- 
*** Playing the game for the games own sake. ***


Associations:

* Debian Maintainer (DM)
* Fedora/EPEL Maintainer.
* Contributor member of the AlmaLinux foundation.

WWW: https://kathenas.org

Buy Me a Coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/kathenasorg

Twitter: @kathenasorg

Instagram: @kathenasorg

IRC: kathenas

GPG: 724AA9B52F024C8B


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: What is Fedora?

On Wed, 2023-06-21 at 16:23 -0400, JT wrote:
> Red Hat doesn't need to mention it.  It's a legal requirement of the GPL... 
> anyone using the
> binaries has legal right to the source code.  
> 
> As for Red Hat cancelling users accounts who pull the source build binaries 
> and share it...
> that'd probably land them in a lawsuit, because as long as that person who 
> originally downloaded
> the code has the binaries... they are legally entitled to the source for them 
> for as long as they
> have the binaries.
> 
> Furthermore, anyone who shares a binary they build from RH sources... has a 
> legal requirement to
> share the source onto the next person.
> 
> These are precisely the type of issues with the MIT/BSD license that Stallman 
> wanted to address
> with the GPL.
> 
> Red Hat could terminate the dev license... and put RHEL entirely behind a 
> paywall, but they have
> not stated that they are doing so.  And I would imagine that they would get a 
> ton of backlash if
> they did considering that was how they addressed the reaction the 
> CentOS/CentOS Stream change.
> But even if they did that, they still have to provide source to anyone with 
> the binaries.  So all
> it would take is one person buying a license, and then releasing the code.
> Even if Red Hat banned that account, there would just be another account to 
> do the same thing
> again. Red Hat would have to play whack-a-mole to try to stop people from 
> doing that constantly. 
> 
> 
> 

Whack-a-mole is not what we want to play and we are aware of MIT and GPL 
licenses. What the
community needs is a free source of entry. I believe the GPL asks you never 
have to make agreement
to access GPL code. However Red Hat have not defined what a customer and 
partner is, but this
requires having a Red Hat account which requires agreeing to terms etc. to 
access the srpms.

Regards

Phil

-- 
*** Playing the game for the games own sake. ***


Associations:

* Debian Maintainer (DM)
* Fedora/EPEL Maintainer.
* Contributor member of the AlmaLinux foundation.

WWW: https://kathenas.org

Buy Me a Coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/kathenasorg

Twitter: @kathenasorg

Instagram: @kathenasorg

IRC: kathenas

GPG: 724AA9B52F024C8B


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: What is Fedora?

2023-06-21 Thread Gerald Henriksen

On Wed, 21 Jun 2023 21:06:40 +0100, you wrote:

>Hi all,
>
>Obviously many will have seen:
>
>https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/furthering-evolution-centos-stream
>
>and see, where EL (contributors like you of fedora/EPEL) have been knocked 
>down:
>
>https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2215299
>
>Let us face it our efforts with the Fedora project are not valued and it is a 
>means nothing to the
>new corporate IBM/Red Hat enterprise systems that we have to struggle to get 
>access to srpms, to
>make a community. What is community now to Red Hat?

My interpretation of the blog post, combined with recent actions
towards Fedora by Red Hat, is that Red Hat now views CentOS Stream as
the new "Fedora" for basing future versions of RHEL.

___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: What is Fedora?

Red Hat doesn't need to mention it.  It's a legal requirement of the GPL...
anyone using the binaries has legal right to the source code.

As for Red Hat cancelling users accounts who pull the source build binaries
and share it... that'd probably land them in a lawsuit, because as long as
that person who originally downloaded the code has the binaries... they are
legally entitled to the source for them for as long as they have the
binaries.

Furthermore, anyone who shares a binary they build from RH sources... has a
legal requirement to share the source onto the next person.

These are precisely the type of issues with the MIT/BSD license that
Stallman wanted to address with the GPL.

Red Hat could terminate the dev license... and put RHEL entirely behind a
paywall, but they have not stated that they are doing so.  And I would
imagine that they would get a ton of backlash if they did considering that
was how they addressed the reaction the CentOS/CentOS Stream change.
But even if they did that, they still have to provide source to anyone with
the binaries.  So all it would take is one person buying a license, and
then releasing the code.
Even if Red Hat banned that account, there would just be another account to
do the same thing again. Red Hat would have to play whack-a-mole to try to
stop people from doing that constantly.

On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 4:14 PM Philip Wyett 
wrote:

> On Wed, 2023-06-21 at 16:10 -0400, JT wrote:
> > > I see an impasse here. Why contribute to fedora when Red Hat will lock
> it down in other
> > products?
> >
> > They literally cannot "Lock it down" due to the GPL.  Anyone using RHEL
> binaries has legal right
> > to the code.
> > What they seem to have done is limit source code access to those who are
> actually using RHEL,
> > which is all the GPL requires.  The GPL does not require you to share
> source code with every
> > person on the planet, only those using your binaries.
> > If someone wants the source, they can sign up for a free DEV license for
> RHEL, and that entitles
> > them to the source code for the RHEL things they are using.
> >
>
> The Free dev account was never mentioned in the announcement. Can Red Hat
> confirm it will stay and
> those who access srpms, rebuild then for other purposes will not have
> accounts cancelled?
>
> Regards
>
> Phil
>
> --
> *** Playing the game for the games own sake. ***
>
>
> Associations:
>
> * Debian Maintainer (DM)
> * Fedora/EPEL Maintainer.
> * Contributor member of the AlmaLinux foundation.
>
> WWW: https://kathenas.org
>
> Buy Me a Coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/kathenasorg
>
> Twitter: @kathenasorg
>
> Instagram: @kathenasorg
>
> IRC: kathenas
>
> GPG: 724AA9B52F024C8B
>
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: What is Fedora?

On Wed, 2023-06-21 at 16:10 -0400, JT wrote:
> > I see an impasse here. Why contribute to fedora when Red Hat will lock it 
> > down in other
> products?
> 
> They literally cannot "Lock it down" due to the GPL.  Anyone using RHEL 
> binaries has legal right
> to the code. 
> What they seem to have done is limit source code access to those who are 
> actually using RHEL,
> which is all the GPL requires.  The GPL does not require you to share source 
> code with every
> person on the planet, only those using your binaries.
> If someone wants the source, they can sign up for a free DEV license for 
> RHEL, and that entitles
> them to the source code for the RHEL things they are using.
>  

The Free dev account was never mentioned in the announcement. Can Red Hat 
confirm it will stay and
those who access srpms, rebuild then for other purposes will not have accounts 
cancelled?

Regards

Phil

-- 
*** Playing the game for the games own sake. ***


Associations:

* Debian Maintainer (DM)
* Fedora/EPEL Maintainer.
* Contributor member of the AlmaLinux foundation.

WWW: https://kathenas.org

Buy Me a Coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/kathenasorg

Twitter: @kathenasorg

Instagram: @kathenasorg

IRC: kathenas

GPG: 724AA9B52F024C8B


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part
___
devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Fedora Code of Conduct: 
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
List Archives: 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Do not reply to spam, report it: 
https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

Re: What is Fedora?