Re: [IxDA Discuss] Most usable doesn't always mean best solution
On Mar 6, 2008, at 9:08 AM, Todd Zaki Warfel wrote: On Mar 6, 2008, at 7:32 AM, Elizabeth Buie wrote: I agree. But that doesn't make them usability professionals. Semantics. Call them usability practitioners, call them people practicing usability, but they're getting paid for doing usability work, which is one of the definitions of a professional. BTW, I don't like it anymore than you that these people are doing usability work. In fact, I'm rather bothered by it. But it is a reality that it is happening and we need to be conscious of it. The fact that you don't consider them professionals says something about your confidence in their ability to do this work well, at least that would be my interpretation. And with that I would agree. Cheers! Todd Zaki Warfel President, Design Researcher Messagefirst | Designing Information. Beautifully. -- Contact Info Voice: (215) 825-7423 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] AIM:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Blog: http://toddwarfel.com -- In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not. Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Most usable doesn't always mean best solution
what would be the usability implication if user is allowed to write their own question and answer? If open-ended is too vague, will it help to provide sample questions? If sample questions are provided, will users tend to choose one of the sample questions? On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 09:31:44, Patricia Garcia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm a bit confused. You reference the fact that the form takes more time and effort as meaning it's unusable.Efficiency (which is what I assume you are referring to) doesn't just mean faster, it means less wasted time. If the goal if the form was to be more secure and adding more questions accomplished that goal, how is that wasted time to look through more questions? Particularly when the user satisfaction was high. I don't know, but I would guess based on your results from testing that this form is indeed usable. As for the automatic/manual argument, both pass usablility depending on your users goals. It's not a one size fits all solution. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=26755 Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Most usable doesn't always mean best solution
Todd wrote: On Mar 3, 2008, at 5:26 PM, Elizabeth Buie wrote: No, the automatic would come out as the most learnable Well, this is one very key factor in determining usability. Yes, of course. But it does not constitute usability by its own self; there are other factors. Remember that usability does not exist in a vacuum; it depends on who is using the product and in what context. I worked for a couple of years on an air traffic control system, and most learnable in that context would definitely NOT have been most usable because it would have slowed them down in operation and could have made the skies much less safe. Elizabeth Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Most usable doesn't always mean best solution
Brandon Ward writes: I think everyone could agree that automatic is technically 'easier', Depends on by whom. It really *isn't* easier for me. Sorry if this isn't very coherent - but I think my point is in there somewhere. I'm not so sure. I drive a stick, never owned an automatic. I use a Mac, never owned a Windows machine. Go figure. :-) Elizabeth -- or maybe I'm just weird Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Most usable doesn't always mean best solution
On Mar 4, 2008, at 9:30 AM, Elizabeth Buie wrote: Yes, of course. But it does not constitute usability by its own self; there are other factors. That's my point. Many of the usability professionals I run into don't see usability as multi-factor. Unfortunately, many of them equate usability to efficiency and intuition, which are only a small, albeit significant, part of the pie. While intuition and efficiency are important parts, we can't forget about learnability, satisfaction, and the ability to inevitably complete a task/goal. Cheers! Todd Zaki Warfel President, Design Researcher Messagefirst | Designing Information. Beautifully. -- Contact Info Voice: (215) 825-7423 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] AIM:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Blog: http://toddwarfel.com -- In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not. Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Most usable doesn't always mean best solution
On Mar 4, 2008, at 9:48 AM, Elizabeth Buie wrote: I don't know how they can miss it, given how ISO 9241 defines usability. Elizabeth, there are a lot of people out in the field, especially marketing agencies, performing usability studies who haven't got a clue that there's an ISO 9241 standard for it. You might be surprised by this, but it's true. But wait a minute. In your first post on the subject, you said that the product was less usable but yielded *greater* satisfaction, so I pointed out that your comment ignored the satisfaction component of usability. Now you're telling *me* that satisfaction is a component of usability? What is wrong with this picture? I include satisfaction in my definition of usability, but as I said before, many HCI purists, especially in academia don't see it that way. You might not see that in your work, but that might be due to the industry you're focused in. Likewise, since I'm not involved in government work, where we're not obligated to be bound by ISO standards, I see it pretty often. Cheers! Todd Zaki Warfel President, Design Researcher Messagefirst | Designing Information. Beautifully. -- Contact Info Voice: (215) 825-7423 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] AIM:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Blog: http://toddwarfel.com -- In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not. Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Most usable doesn't always mean best solution
Elizabeth, there are a lot of people out in the field, especially marketing agencies, performing usability studies who haven't got a clue that there's an ISO 9241 standard for it. You might be surprised by this, but it's true. .. To the point: In the dusty institutions where usability standards gather to party with each other, ISO 9241 is a bit of a celebrity. It is widely cited by people who would be hard pushed to name any other standard, and* **parts of it are virtually enshrined in law in some European countries. *But as is the fate of many celebrities , *all most usability professionals know about the standard is its name*. - http://www.userfocus.co.uk/articles/ISO9241.html Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Most usable doesn't always mean best solution
Todd writes: Elizabeth, there are a lot of people out in the field, especially marketing agencies, Well, there you have it. They're marketing folks. IMNERHO they aren't usability professionals; they're just calling themselves that. I include satisfaction in my definition of usability, Then would you mind explaining what you had in mind when you said that a design was less usable but more satisfying? Help me out here. You might not see that in your work, but that might be due to the industry you're focused in. I have clients in the government, nonprofit, and commercial sectors. Which industry did you have in mind? :-) Likewise, since I'm not involved in government work, where we're not obligated to be bound by ISO standards, I see it pretty often. I am not talking about being bound by ISO standards. I am talking about knowing the definition of usability, which happens to be best captured in ISO 9241/11. This definition comes up rather frequently among people who actually *are* usability professionals. Elizabeth Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Most usable doesn't always mean best solution
On Mar 4, 2008, at 10:59 AM, Elizabeth Buie wrote: Well, there you have it. They're marketing folks. IMNERHO they aren't usability professionals; they're just calling themselves that. They call themselves that and they are doing usability research. Companies are hiring them. I've seen the tapes. I've read the reports. Whether we like it or not, and personally I don't really like it, the reality is that these people are doing usability work and it's rather common. Then would you mind explaining what you had in mind when you said that a design was less usable but more satisfying? Help me out here. Can't. Satisfaction is included in my definition of usability. But as I've said before, not everyone shares my definition of usability (remember those marketing agencies doing usability work?). I have clients in the government, nonprofit, and commercial sectors. Which industry did you have in mind? :-) Based on your site, it looks like your focus is on government and non- profit. While we've done work for both, that's not our focus—we focus more on commercial businesses. However, whenever we deal with government/non-profit, we do have different standards we have to abide by. For example, right now, we're doing work for a very large bank. Actually, the company was acquired last year by a large bank. So, small startup that's now part of one of the world's largest banks. Last year, they weren't bound by 508 compliance and a few other standards that this bank is. Now they are. So, now part of our work is upgrading their systems for them. And btw, it wasn't that they didn't care before, they weren't aware and didn't have the budget for this type of work before. Now they are aware and required so they have to create a budget for it. I am not talking about being bound by ISO standards. I am talking about knowing the definition of usability, which happens to be best captured in ISO 9241/11. This definition comes up rather frequently among people who actually *are* usability professionals. Last year at UPA, I taught an entire day long tutorial on creating data-driven design research persons. Part of that was how to use them in the usability process. During our discussion of usability, not one single person in the room of 50+ ever once referenced the ISO 9241 definition of usability. Now, while this isn't conclusive, I'd think that a crowd at UPA is a pretty good representation of usability professionals. Additionally, I've spoken at a number of UPA groups and have not once heard any reference to ISO 9241. I'm aware there's a standard, but I'll bet you that most people I encounter in the field aren't as well versed on it as you are and couldn't give me the ISO definition. I'm not claiming that my experience is the entire total truth, clearly it's not. But clearly, there's an entire universe out there doing usability work who are totally and completely unaware of the ISO standard definition. Cheers! Todd Zaki Warfel President, Design Researcher Messagefirst | Designing Information. Beautifully. -- Contact Info Voice: (215) 825-7423 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] AIM:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Blog: http://toddwarfel.com -- In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not. Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Most usable doesn't always mean best solution
I'm a bit confused. You reference the fact that the form takes more time and effort as meaning it's unusable.Efficiency (which is what I assume you are referring to) doesn't just mean faster, it means less wasted time. If the goal if the form was to be more secure and adding more questions accomplished that goal, how is that wasted time to look through more questions? Particularly when the user satisfaction was high. I don't know, but I would guess based on your results from testing that this form is indeed usable. As for the automatic/manual argument, both pass usablility depending on your users goals. It's not a one size fits all solution. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=26755 Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Most usable doesn't always mean best solution
On Mar 3, 2008, at 2:55 PM, Z S Zaiss wrote: I'd still say your results prove usability - just not efficiency The main point here is that usability doesn't always equate to efficiency, to rephrase the subject line. A purest theoretical perspective on usability is that usability=efficient, which is not necessarily the case in reality. Cheers! Todd Zaki Warfel President, Design Researcher Messagefirst | Designing Information. Beautifully. -- Contact Info Voice: (215) 825-7423 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] AIM:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Blog: http://toddwarfel.com -- In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not. Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Most usable doesn't always mean best solution
There's a second piece to this, though. For the 'ice cream' type of questions, 9 months later when they've forgotten their password, will they be able to successfully re-set it, or will they have forgotten the 'answer'? Last week we were conducting some research for a client. The research included testing of a registration form for their product/service. During registration, participants filled out their contact info (e.g. name/email) then were directed to a security screen, where they were prompted to answer three security questionspretty standard for financial systems these days (this was not a financial system, but was for backing up all your stuff on your computer through their service so equally important to individuals). What surprised us was that the corresponding drop down menu for each security item had 20 questions in eacha very long list. We had some initial concerns that participants would find this overwhelming, a bit tedious, and my be put off by the whole thing. What we found was quite the opposite, actually. Every participant 11/11 felt reassured with the long list of questions. Responses included: This makes me feel more safe. These questions are harder to break. Everyone can guess my eye color, but not my favorite flavor of ice cream. This is good. Lots of questions are harder to break. And then there were the Well, I wouldn't pick favorite color or ice cream. Those things change too often depending on my mood. Incidentally, this was heard from 4 women, but none of the men. Just an observation folks, don't shoot the messenger. The point is that technically, this form wasn't more usableit was in fact less usable, took more effort, and time to complete than if there were only say 5 questions in each menu. 11/11 participants rated this as being a 1=very easy and high satisfaction, which goes to show you that the most usable solution isn't always the best solution. Cheers! Todd Zaki Warfel President, Design Researcher Messagefirst | Designing Information. Beautifully. -- Contact Info Voice: (215) 825-7423 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] AIM: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Blog: http://toddwarfel.com -- In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not. Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Most usable doesn't always mean best solution
On Mar 3, 2008, at 3:14 PM, Caryn Josephson wrote: For the 'ice cream' type of questions, 9 months later when they've forgotten their password, will they be able to successfully re-set it, or will they have forgotten the 'answer'? In our study, every participant avoided those questions for that very fear. However, that would definitely be an aspect to follow up on. That scenario wasn't part of our initial test and wasn't built into the beta. Cheers! Todd Zaki Warfel President, Design Researcher Messagefirst | Designing Information. Beautifully. -- Contact Info Voice: (215) 825-7423 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] AIM:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Blog: http://toddwarfel.com -- In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not. Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Most usable doesn't always mean best solution
Robert Barlow-Busch writes: By far my favorite example of this maxim is automatic vs. standard transmissions in vehicles. Imagine doing a usability test of these two technologies: the automatic would win, hands-down. No, the automatic would come out as the most learnable. For those who are familiar with it, it is also the most usable. For example, I have never owned an automatic, and I always feel clumsy when I am forced to rent one. But I'm glad I learned on one, lo! those many years ago. Elizabeth Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Most usable doesn't always mean best solution
There's a second piece to this, though. For the 'ice cream' type of questions, 9 months later when they've forgotten their password, will they be able to successfully re-set it, or will they have forgotten the 'answer'? Great point! One of the trickiest aspects is remembering the exact casing and such of the answer you entered. Every so often, my bank's site asks me the model of my first car, and I have to remember whether or not I included make and model, or just model, whether I capitalized it or not, etc. A system that was forgiving in this area, like the IxDA sign-in process, could be great in some situations. -r- Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Most usable doesn't always mean best solution
I think the 'standard vs automatic' is very much akin to Linux/Unix user vs Regular user. I think everyone could agree that automatic is technically 'easier', but you lose the ability to have fine-tune control if/when you want it like you've got w/ a stick. The people I know that drive stick do so because driving is a passion for them and they don't trust a machine to decide when/where/how to shift for them. They also like to work on their own cars, tweek them, mod them etc. Power-users and people who like tinkering w/ the fiddly-bits of their OS, trying new things, getting under the hood of the OS, using OpenSource apps, also like this ability in their computers. Setting up and using Linux/Unix etc. may not be quite as 'easy' as just installing OS X or Windows, and finding apps, settings etc. might be a bit more of a challenge, but those who choose either camp do so for obvious reasons, foregoing either some of the options or control they might get for the ability to do things more quickly/easily. Sorry if this isn't very coherent - but I think my point is in there somewhere. B Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Most usable doesn't always mean best solution
Todd - Depending on the specifics of the question choices, it's not clear whether more questions is not in fact more efficient. One of the issues with challenge questions is that users may not have appropriate or memorable choices to select from. For example, your high school didn't have a mascot or your dad doesn't have a middle name. This is especially noticeable with an international user base who have less in common culturally to draw from. Therefore, more question choices increases the likelihood that there there are questions which users can readily come up with an answer for, rather than a limited choice where users struggle to find appropriate questions. In other words, more questions is more efficient from a mental task completion view, versus a speed of reading perspective. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=26755 Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Most usable doesn't always mean best solution
I have to agree with this, and also mention that poorly chosen challenge questions may be viewed as security problems. I came across a (not needing serious security, i.e. not financial or similar) site recently where one of the questions was mother's maiden name. Since that's commonly used for verification by financial companies, there was no way I was giving it to a system that would probably store it in plaintext (easier to check against) and that anyway didn't store particularly important information. In that case I had five questions to choose from, and one of the others was favorite band, which falls under the ice cream problem. More choices would have made me *much* less irritated by the site. Now I wish I could remember what it was to warn others off Jennifer Berk On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 16:48:13, Rob Tannen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Todd - Depending on the specifics of the question choices, it's not clear whether more questions is not in fact more efficient. One of the issues with challenge questions is that users may not have appropriate or memorable choices to select from. For example, your high school didn't have a mascot or your dad doesn't have a middle name. This is especially noticeable with an international user base who have less in common culturally to draw from. Therefore, more question choices increases the likelihood that there there are questions which users can readily come up with an answer for, rather than a limited choice where users struggle to find appropriate questions. In other words, more questions is more efficient from a mental task completion view, versus a speed of reading perspective. Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Most usable doesn't always mean best solution
On Mar 3, 2008, at 5:21 PM, Robert Barlow-Busch wrote: Yet so many people *passionately* prefer standard and wouldn't be caught dead driving an automatic. And then there's the awkward irony of something like a corvette being sold with an automatic transmission. There's just something about an automatic sports car that's just ooo so wrong. Cheers! Todd Zaki Warfel President, Design Researcher Messagefirst | Designing Information. Beautifully. -- Contact Info Voice: (215) 825-7423 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] AIM:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Blog: http://toddwarfel.com -- In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not. Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Most usable doesn't always mean best solution
On Mar 3, 2008, at 5:26 PM, Elizabeth Buie wrote: No, the automatic would come out as the most learnable Well, this is one very key factor in determining usability. Cheers! Todd Zaki Warfel President, Design Researcher Messagefirst | Designing Information. Beautifully. -- Contact Info Voice: (215) 825-7423 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] AIM:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Blog: http://toddwarfel.com -- In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not. Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
