Re: [IxDA Discuss] OK/Cancel [wrong heading - Jaiku ]
On 21 Nov 2007, at 19:35, Susie Robson wrote: You are right. I should have said, based on your personas, you should know which applications or browsers your users use and if they are primarily Windows users, even on a web page, you should follow Windows conventions. [snip] Even when (as they did for us) you get a higher error rate? :-) Adrian *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] OK/Cancel
This doesn't surprise me. Enter (and other keyboard actions to activate form/dialog controls) are a power user activity. (So I'll bet no one exited with Esc or tabbed through controls, either.) There's a level of trust (for lack of a better word) that has to be established before users are only going to engage in power activities. The first time in a given form or in a given app, they are going to act cautious and conservative and will not use such shortcuts, because they aren't sure that the app will behave like it should in non-power scenarios. (Exception: if they are testing the form rather than using it, if they are looking for problems, then you may get power behavior right out of the gate.) -- Jim Drew [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.soundskinky.com/blog/ On Nov 21, 2007, at 8:58 AM, Luke Wroblewski wrote: All of the participants (23) used the buttons on all of the options (6). So 138 times out of 138 tested, no on used hit Enter to complete a form. On Nov 21, 2007, at 8:04 AM, Todd Zaki Warfel wrote: Excellent question. Luke, any insights into this? I don't think this was mentioned in the article. *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] OK/Cancel
-Original Message- I think Luke W's article (posted on this thread previously) answers a lot of our questions based on research and statistical data. Primary button should be on the left, secondary button on the right. Buttons should be left aligned. -Juan [Brian Hoffman] Greetings everyone! New subscriber here. Unless I'm missing something, I don't believe this conclusion can be drawn from Luke W's article. Of the options he studied, none of them had the primary button to the right next to the secondary button with both of them left aligned. Only one of the variations had the primary button to the right of the secondary button and in that case the buttons were fill-justified, which could make an enormous difference with a left-justified form. What I'm wondering is, did participants have the option to hit Enter on their keyboard instead of clicking on a button to submit the form and, if so, how many people used that option and never even looked at the buttons? Thanks, Brian J. Hoffman Interface Designer Minitab Inc. Quality Plaza 1829 Pine Hall Road State College, PA 16801-3008 USA/CAN/MEX: +1 800 448-3555 Ext.#514 Tel: +1 814-238-3280 Ext.#514 Fax: +1 814-238-4383 Web site: www.minitab.com *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] OK/Cancel
All of the participants (23) used the buttons on all of the options (6). So 138 times out of 138 tested, no on used hit Enter to complete a form. The options we chose were based off an audit of Web forms not desktop apps. Hence why you don't see some of the variations you are asking about. I pulled the most common solutions that came up. thanks~ On Nov 21, 2007, at 8:04 AM, Todd Zaki Warfel wrote: Excellent question. Luke, any insights into this? I don't think this was mentioned in the article. :: ::Luke Wroblewski -[ www.lukew.com ] ::Principal/Founder, LukeW Interface Designs ::[EMAIL PROTECTED] | 408.513.7207 :: ::Blog: http://www.lukew.com/ff/ ::Book: http://www.lukew.com/resources/site_seeing.html :: *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] OK/Cancel
saw some but much higher amount of primary button on the right alone. Or primary button on the right secondary action on the left (of the page). We didn't test the first, cause no secondary action. We tested the second. On Nov 21, 2007, at 11:16 AM, Todd Zaki Warfel wrote: On the web forms audit, you didn't find any web forms that use the model of buttons right aligned with the default button to the right and subsequent to the left? I find that a bit unusual, unless you were focused on a specific subset, as that's a pretty common model I regularly see, especially when shopping on-line, which came over from desktop applications. :: ::Luke Wroblewski -[ www.lukew.com ] ::Principal/Founder, LukeW Interface Designs ::[EMAIL PROTECTED] | 408.513.7207 :: ::Blog: http://www.lukew.com/ff/ ::Book: http://www.lukew.com/resources/site_seeing.html :: *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] OK/Cancel
Got it. Looking at the results, looks like you focused on transaction based sites. Any specific type (e.g. shopping, account management, travel, hotel booking)? What was the make up of the sites you sampled for the models for testing? Also wondering if these were UK vs. US or another country focused sites. Just wondering if that might have contributed to the models you saw. I'm curious if there's some cultural impact here or not. On Nov 21, 2007, at 2:25 PM, Luke Wroblewski wrote: saw some but much higher amount of primary button on the right alone. Or primary button on the right secondary action on the left (of the page). We didn't test the first, cause no secondary action. We tested the second. Cheers! Todd Zaki Warfel President, Design Researcher Messagefirst | Designing Information. Beautifully. -- Contact Info Voice: (215) 825-7423 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] AIM:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Blog: http://toddwarfel.com -- In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not. *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] OK/Cancel [wrong heading - Jaiku ]
You are right. I should have said, based on your personas, you should know which applications or browsers your users use and if they are primarily Windows users, even on a web page, you should follow Windows conventions. Of course, I'm speaking from a more corporate experience than the users who may not work outside the home and just use the web, not any applications. One of my reasons is that Microsoft and Apple had done a lot of research when writing the style guides for their desktop applications. Just because we are now using the web, we shouldn't ignore their research. But, just my opinion. I happen to be a consistency-freak. I'm also really against having OK be a button while the Cancel is a text link. Buttons are to perform actions--OK and Cancel are both actions. Susie -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Juan Ruiz Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 8:30 PM To: IxDA Discuss Subject: Re: [IxDA Discuss] OK/Cancel [wrong heading - Jaiku ] Susie wrote I have not done extensive research but the standard has usually been: If it's a PC, Ok is on the left, Cancel on the right If it's a Mac, Cancel is on the left, OK is on the right This assumption is correct if we are designing desktop applications. But, what about online apps? We cannot determine what browser the visitor is using, and then from it, decide the order of the buttons. How about the millions of Google's users? Google displays the primary action button (i.e. OK) on the left. I think Luke W's article (posted on this thread previously) answers a lot of our questions based on research and statistical data. Primary button should be on the left, secondary button on the right. Buttons should be left aligned. -Juan *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] OK/Cancel
US. e-commerce, registration, data entry mix. On Nov 21, 2007, at 11:31 AM, Todd Zaki Warfel wrote: Got it. Looking at the results, looks like you focused on transaction based sites. Any specific type (e.g. shopping, account management, travel, hotel booking)? What was the make up of the sites you sampled for the models for testing? Also wondering if these were UK vs. US or another country focused sites. Just wondering if that might have contributed to the models you saw. I'm curious if there's some cultural impact here or not. :: ::Luke Wroblewski -[ www.lukew.com ] ::Principal/Founder, LukeW Interface Designs ::[EMAIL PROTECTED] | 408.513.7207 :: ::Blog: http://www.lukew.com/ff/ ::Book: http://www.lukew.com/resources/site_seeing.html :: *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] OK/Cancel [wrong heading - Jaiku ]
I have not done extensive research but the standard has usually been: If it's a PC, Ok is on the left, Cancel on the right If it's a Mac, Cancel is on the left, OK is on the right I believe that is how their style guides suggest it is done. And, since most PC/Windows applications are done this way, it makes sense to be consistent. Susie -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Juan Ruiz Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 7:58 PM To: Prasad Perera; IxDA Discuss Subject: Re: [IxDA Discuss] OK/Cancel [wrong heading - Jaiku ] Prasad, This has been a conversation that has been posted in the IxDA and SIGLIA mailing lists many times, and it has come to this: it depends. I am in favor of the action button [ok] to be on the left, with the condition that the form is a single page and the action will be carried out immediately. I would like to see if somebody has run usability tests or research to define best practices for this argument. -Juan -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Prasad Perera Sent: Tuesday, 20 November 2007 11:25 AM To: IxDA Discuss Subject: Re: [IxDA Discuss] Jaiku Hi All, Has anyone done extensive user testing for placement of OK, CANCEL buttons? Should OK be on left and CANCEL on right? I have seen many theories to how it should be but didn't come across any results of an actual user testing on this subject. If anyone has information about this, please let me know. Thanks Prasad Perera User Experience Architect *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] OK/Cancel [wrong heading - Jaiku ]
On 20 Nov 2007, at 01:26, Bryan Minihan wrote: For performance reasons, we almost always settled on OK on the left, Cancel on the right in web forms. It sped up completion of the form (in tests) by being the first button you wind up on when you tab out of the last field (saves a tab), and was more obviously the button that would respond when you pressed enter on the keyboard within the form (this last is subjective, but someone mentioned it in a test, and it kind of makes sense). [snip] Interesting :-) We almost always settle on OK on the right since (in tests) users made fewer errors with it this way round. This was with a couple of different web apps. We didn't look at speed of completion though. I have to admit I wasn't expecting the result we got - because I assumed most folk would be more used to the Windows conventions. (as an aside the tab problem could be resolved by either using CSS/ HTML to render the buttons differently from their order in the source, or by using tabindex to alter the tabbing order) Cheers, Adrian *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] OK/Cancel [wrong heading - Jaiku ]
That is interesting =]. Our testing was on internal corporate apps purely with employees who may have been more accustomed to a certain convention. Just goes to show that context and convention makes a difference. Re: the tab-order thing, having OK on the left prevents the developer (who may be an offshore Java developer w/ no Client development experience/interest) having to learn (or remember to add) the right CSS/HTML/JS to reverse the tab order. In corp offshore web development, the less the developer has to remember, the better =]. Of course that shouldn't really matter, but could and should are 2 diff things... Bryan http://www.bryanminihan.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Adrian Howard Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 8:56 AM To: IxDA Discuss Subject: Re: [IxDA Discuss] OK/Cancel [wrong heading - Jaiku ] On 20 Nov 2007, at 01:26, Bryan Minihan wrote: For performance reasons, we almost always settled on OK on the left, Cancel on the right in web forms. It sped up completion of the form (in tests) by being the first button you wind up on when you tab out of the last field (saves a tab), and was more obviously the button that would respond when you pressed enter on the keyboard within the form (this last is subjective, but someone mentioned it in a test, and it kind of makes sense). [snip] Interesting :-) We almost always settle on OK on the right since (in tests) users made fewer errors with it this way round. This was with a couple of different web apps. We didn't look at speed of completion though. I have to admit I wasn't expecting the result we got - because I assumed most folk would be more used to the Windows conventions. (as an aside the tab problem could be resolved by either using CSS/ HTML to render the buttons differently from their order in the source, or by using tabindex to alter the tabbing order) Cheers, Adrian *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] OK/Cancel [wrong heading - Jaiku ]
Luke W's article (linked to earlier in this thread) was good. Given that placing the buttons at the bottom right of the form is the least usable position, I wonder if the rule OK on the left if buttons are left align, OK on the right if right aligned illuminates anything. Are things placed rightmost more primary then things in a right-aligned group that are not the rightmost item? I'm not advocating this, just curious if anyone has analyzed button placement for this difference. Faith -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Adrian Howard Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 8:56 AM To: IxDA Discuss On 20 Nov 2007, at 01:26, Bryan Minihan wrote: ... we almost always settled on OK on the left, Cancel on the right in web forms. [snip] Interesting :-) We almost always settle on OK on the right since (in tests) users made fewer errors with it this way round. [snip] -- Faith Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] OK/Cancel [wrong heading - Jaiku ]
There was a great presentation that addressed this question given by Luke Wroblewski at this summer's An Event Apart in Chicago. Best Practices For Form Design presents the analysis of eye tracking data to conclude that these things do matter. I posted the PDF handout for anyone interested. It's definitely worth a look. Zack http://www.aneventapart.com/speakers/lukewroblewski/ http://clientsi.de/docs/uxd/Wroblewski - Best Practices For Form Design.pdf *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] OK/Cancel [wrong heading - Jaiku ]
Susie wrote I have not done extensive research but the standard has usually been: If it's a PC, Ok is on the left, Cancel on the right If it's a Mac, Cancel is on the left, OK is on the right This assumption is correct if we are designing desktop applications. But, what about online apps? We cannot determine what browser the visitor is using, and then from it, decide the order of the buttons. How about the millions of Google's users? Google displays the primary action button (i.e. OK) on the left. I think Luke W's article (posted on this thread previously) answers a lot of our questions based on research and statistical data. Primary button should be on the left, secondary button on the right. Buttons should be left aligned. -Juan *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] OK/Cancel [wrong heading - Jaiku ]
Except that that research didn't test one of the most common models found in application design over the past couple decades: primary button at the right, secondary at the left with buttons aligned to the bottom right corner. Just about every other model available was tested as shown in Luke's article, but this very common model was left out. On Nov 20, 2007, at 8:29 PM, Juan Ruiz wrote: I think Luke W's article (posted on this thread previously) answers a lot of our questions based on research and statistical data. Primary button should be on the left, secondary button on the right. Buttons should be left aligned. Cheers! Todd Zaki Warfel President, Design Researcher Messagefirst | Designing Information. Beautifully. -- Contact Info Voice: (215) 825-7423 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] AIM:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Blog: http://toddwarfel.com -- In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not. *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] OK/Cancel [wrong heading - Jaiku ]
For performance reasons, we almost always settled on OK on the left, Cancel on the right in web forms. It sped up completion of the form (in tests) by being the first button you wind up on when you tab out of the last field (saves a tab), and was more obviously the button that would respond when you pressed enter on the keyboard within the form (this last is subjective, but someone mentioned it in a test, and it kind of makes sense). Another tangential argument you could make is: If the buttons were Yes and No, would you reverse them? Make the most popular path the easiest to follow. If you want people to hit Cancel if there is some risk in hitting Ok, then you might run a study with Cancel/OK to make sure it doesn't confuse anyone. - Bryan http://www.bryanminihan.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Juan Ruiz Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 7:58 PM To: Prasad Perera; IxDA Discuss Subject: Re: [IxDA Discuss] OK/Cancel [wrong heading - Jaiku ] Prasad, This has been a conversation that has been posted in the IxDA and SIGLIA mailing lists many times, and it has come to this: it depends. I am in favor of the action button [ok] to be on the left, with the condition that the form is a single page and the action will be carried out immediately. I would like to see if somebody has run usability tests or research to define best practices for this argument. -Juan -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Prasad Perera Sent: Tuesday, 20 November 2007 11:25 AM To: IxDA Discuss Subject: Re: [IxDA Discuss] Jaiku Hi All, Has anyone done extensive user testing for placement of OK, CANCEL buttons? Should OK be on left and CANCEL on right? I have seen many theories to how it should be but didn't come across any results of an actual user testing on this subject. If anyone has information about this, please let me know. Thanks Prasad Perera User Experience Architect *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
