Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Indexing Clarification Needed

[Cathy Crumbley]

HI Milos,

Thank you for taking the time to explain this. It is quite helpful.

From what you describe, this is what I gather about how it works.

 * When a word is selected for an index entry, that word/phrase is
   automatically inserted in the Entry field in the Insert Index Entry
   dialog. It is also given a tag. Index entries for words/phrases with
   that tag cannot be different from what is in the text so the
   translators can’t change them.
 * When the cursor does not highlight a word but rather is next to a
   word, the word it is next to is automatically inserted into the
   Entry field.
 * When the selection and the index entry differ, however slightly, the
   selection is tagged differently. This tag breaks the link between
   the word in the text and the index entry. Thus, the translators are
   able to change the index entries independently of what is in the text.

If my understanding is correct, this means that we could select a 
word/phrase as long as we modify it in the Entry field. This would make 
our task slightly simpler (and more understandable, at least to me) and 
the Contributor Guide could be modified accordingly.


Thanks again,

Cathy


On 11/14/2018 8:27 AM, Milos Sramek wrote:

Dear Cathy and Drew,
as the terminology is unclear, I've prepared a document with explanation
and screenshots: http://sospreskoly.org/~milos/indexentry.odt
I hope it helps

Drew: It is not "indexing a character space". it is placing index entry
to a certain position in the document without relation to any specific
document text. LO distinguishes in fact two types of index entries, but
provides the same interface for both .
Milos


On 11/13/18 4:06 AM, Drew Jensen wrote:

Hi,

Reading along and having Writer open trying to do what you seem to be
asking and to be honest I am totally confused.

Here is what I think you are looking for.

You want me index a space character and give that a tag, which I suppose is
us typing in the word that we didn't just select before we opened the
dialog box.

Assuming that this word is in multiple places in the document, which I
didn't select for the index, i then forego the ability to auto select all
the instances and instead find them by hand, then select another space
character and do it all over again and again.

Is that it?

On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 8:07 PM Cathy Crumbley  wrote:


HI Milos,

Thank you for taking the time to explain.  For editing Writer
documentation, I needed to learn about Hunspell, so understand the issue
you are facing.

To help me understand this better, I have some questions:

Is it correct that you want only the singular nominative form of nouns
in the index?

What do you mean by "embedded" index entries?

It sounds like surrounding a word or phrase to save it creates a
different result than inserting the cursor before or after the word or
phrase. But what is the difference in what is saved?

The few times I have made an index entry by inserting the cursor before
or after a word (with no space between) only that word appears in the
index. Since we need to write the exact index entry in the index dialog,
it is puzzling that Writer would still grab neighboring words. This
seems like a bug. Do you know if it has been reported as a bug? Do we
know for sure that it is still a problem?

I think it would be helpful to understand more about what is involved in
translation. My understanding is that some language translators write
their own documentation while others start with the English version. I
don't have a clear sense of how that works. I tend to make a lot of
changes, including sharpening text and rearranging content. However, I
don't have a good sense of what this means for translators. To what
extent does it matter if there are many as opposed to few changes for you?

Thank you for whatever clarification and information you can provide.

Cathy

On 11/9/2018 11:10 AM, Milos Sramek wrote:

Dear Cathy,

I am the author of the request to not to "create index entries that
surround words or phrases".

The rationale is this: In English nouns have just two forms, one for
singular and one for plural. In languages with inflection it is
different, in Slovak we have up to 10 forms of a single word.

In the case of "index entries that surround words or phrases" the
"surrounded word or phrase" goes directly in the index. As we need to
use in translation an appropriate inflected form of the word, in that
case the inflected one will create an index entry, and not the basic
(singular nominative) one.

Example: There is an index entry "document" with three instances. I need
to translate them as "dokument", "dokumentom" "dokumenty". These will
create three independent entrees in the translated index, which is
unacceptable. Therefore, we need those "embedded" index entries.

LO somehow automates insertion of index term - when opening the Index
entry dialog it highlights the nearest word and fills with it the Entry
field. In order to avoid these "surrounded words

Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Indexing Clarification Needed

[Drew Jensen]

Howdy Milos,

Ďakujem!

Všetko najlepšie.

Drew

On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 8:28 AM Milos Sramek  wrote:

> Dear Cathy and Drew,
> as the terminology is unclear, I've prepared a document with explanation
> and screenshots: http://sospreskoly.org/~milos/indexentry.odt
> I hope it helps
>
> Drew: It is not "indexing a character space". it is placing index entry
> to a certain position in the document without relation to any specific
> document text. LO distinguishes in fact two types of index entries, but
> provides the same interface for both .
> Milos
>
>
> On 11/13/18 4:06 AM, Drew Jensen wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Reading along and having Writer open trying to do what you seem to be
> > asking and to be honest I am totally confused.
> >
> > Here is what I think you are looking for.
> >
> > You want me index a space character and give that a tag, which I suppose
> is
> > us typing in the word that we didn't just select before we opened the
> > dialog box.
> >
> > Assuming that this word is in multiple places in the document, which I
> > didn't select for the index, i then forego the ability to auto select all
> > the instances and instead find them by hand, then select another space
> > character and do it all over again and again.
> >
> > Is that it?
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 8:07 PM Cathy Crumbley 
> wrote:
> >
> >> HI Milos,
> >>
> >> Thank you for taking the time to explain.  For editing Writer
> >> documentation, I needed to learn about Hunspell, so understand the issue
> >> you are facing.
> >>
> >> To help me understand this better, I have some questions:
> >>
> >> Is it correct that you want only the singular nominative form of nouns
> >> in the index?
> >>
> >> What do you mean by "embedded" index entries?
> >>
> >> It sounds like surrounding a word or phrase to save it creates a
> >> different result than inserting the cursor before or after the word or
> >> phrase. But what is the difference in what is saved?
> >>
> >> The few times I have made an index entry by inserting the cursor before
> >> or after a word (with no space between) only that word appears in the
> >> index. Since we need to write the exact index entry in the index dialog,
> >> it is puzzling that Writer would still grab neighboring words. This
> >> seems like a bug. Do you know if it has been reported as a bug? Do we
> >> know for sure that it is still a problem?
> >>
> >> I think it would be helpful to understand more about what is involved in
> >> translation. My understanding is that some language translators write
> >> their own documentation while others start with the English version. I
> >> don't have a clear sense of how that works. I tend to make a lot of
> >> changes, including sharpening text and rearranging content. However, I
> >> don't have a good sense of what this means for translators. To what
> >> extent does it matter if there are many as opposed to few changes for
> you?
> >>
> >> Thank you for whatever clarification and information you can provide.
> >>
> >> Cathy
> >>
> >> On 11/9/2018 11:10 AM, Milos Sramek wrote:
> >>> Dear Cathy,
> >>>
> >>> I am the author of the request to not to "create index entries that
> >>> surround words or phrases".
> >>>
> >>> The rationale is this: In English nouns have just two forms, one for
> >>> singular and one for plural. In languages with inflection it is
> >>> different, in Slovak we have up to 10 forms of a single word.
> >>>
> >>> In the case of "index entries that surround words or phrases" the
> >>> "surrounded word or phrase" goes directly in the index. As we need to
> >>> use in translation an appropriate inflected form of the word, in that
> >>> case the inflected one will create an index entry, and not the basic
> >>> (singular nominative) one.
> >>>
> >>> Example: There is an index entry "document" with three instances. I
> need
> >>> to translate them as "dokument", "dokumentom" "dokumenty". These will
> >>> create three independent entrees in the translated index, which is
> >>> unacceptable. Therefore, we need those "embedded" index entries.
> >>>
> >>> LO somehow automates insertion of index term - when opening the Index
> >>> entry dialog it highlights the nearest word and fills with it the Entry
> >>> field. In order to avoid these "surrounded words", one needs to enter
> >>> something else (maybe the suggested space after) or to place the entry
> >>> to a neighboring word.
> >>>
> >>> Milos
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 11/8/18 6:18 AM, Cathy Crumbley wrote:
>  Hi All,
> 
>  The Contributor Guide is extremely helpful and I deeply appreciate
>  that someone --presumably Jean--invested the time and energy to create
>  it. I would just like a little bit of clarification.
> 
>  Chapter 2 provides guidelines for indexing. On page 11, the guidelines
>  say: "The translators have requested that we do NOT create index
>  entries that surround words or phrases in the text. Instead, we need
>  to create entries that are embedded be

Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Indexing Clarification Needed

[Cathy Crumbley]

oops. I meant to say that I am *NOT* questioning the rationale.

On 11/13/2018 10:20 AM, Cathy Crumbley wrote:


Hi Martin,

I understand the need and certainly want to make sure that your needs 
are met. I am questioning the rationale.


Rather, I am just trying to understand how it works. Specifically:

 1. How does simply clicking before a word or phrase rather than
selecting it give the result you want? What is the difference in
what is produced?
 2. Does LibreOffice still grab neighboring words rather than the
specific word or phrase we write in the Insert Index Entry dialog?
It sounds like a bug that should be addressed at some point. It
also does not sound like a difficult issue to fix. If it has not
been addressed, has a bug report been filed?

Thank you.

Cathy

On 11/13/2018 2:27 AM, Martin Srebotnjak wrote:

Hi,

what Milos is asking for is important for all languges with 
inflection etc.


Whereas in English it will always be a "document", in those other 
languages the translated text will show different inflected word 
forms, and those are not appropriate for automatic index creation 
(because index will not contain a single entry but several different 
entries for the same term, which kind of makes index useless).


Probably embedded means index entries that have a different index 
value (basic dictionary word form) than the in-text shown value 
(inflicted, plural, etc. ).


So even if this work seems redundant for English, it is necessary for 
other languages (Slavic languages, German etc.) to enable a usable 
index in the translared guides.


Lp, m.


--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy

Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Indexing Clarification Needed

[Cathy Crumbley]

Hi Martin,

I understand the need and certainly want to make sure that your needs 
are met. I am questioning the rationale.


Rather, I am just trying to understand how it works. Specifically:

1. How does simply clicking before a word or phrase rather than
   selecting it give the result you want? What is the difference in
   what is produced?
2. Does LibreOffice still grab neighboring words rather than the
   specific word or phrase we write in the Insert Index Entry dialog?
   It sounds like a bug that should be addressed at some point. It also
   does not sound like a difficult issue to fix. If it has not been
   addressed, has a bug report been filed?

Thank you.

Cathy

On 11/13/2018 2:27 AM, Martin Srebotnjak wrote:

Hi,

what Milos is asking for is important for all languges with inflection 
etc.


Whereas in English it will always be a "document", in those other 
languages the translated text will show different inflected word 
forms, and those are not appropriate for automatic index creation 
(because index will not contain a single entry but several different 
entries for the same term, which kind of makes index useless).


Probably embedded means index entries that have a different index 
value (basic dictionary word form) than the in-text shown value 
(inflicted, plural, etc. ).


So even if this work seems redundant for English, it is necessary for 
other languages (Slavic languages, German etc.) to enable a usable 
index in the translared guides.


Lp, m.


--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy

Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Indexing Clarification Needed

[Drew Jensen]

right you are - I was reading the email alone and not thinking about what
was in the How To doc.

On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 11:01 PM Cathy Crumbley  wrote:

> I was trying to get clarification about the instructions on pages 11 and
> 12 of Chapter 2 of the Documentation Contributors' Guide.  The instructions
> are clear. It is the rationale behind them that I am trying to understand.
>
> On 11/12/2018 10:06 PM, Drew Jensen wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Reading along and having Writer open trying to do what you seem to be
> asking and to be honest I am totally confused.
>
> Here is what I think you are looking for.
>
> You want me index a space character and give that a tag, which I suppose
> is us typing in the word that we didn't just select before we opened the
> dialog box.
>
> Assuming that this word is in multiple places in the document, which I
> didn't select for the index, i then forego the ability to auto select all
> the instances and instead find them by hand, then select another space
> character and do it all over again and again.
>
> Is that it?
>
> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 8:07 PM Cathy Crumbley  wrote:
>
>> HI Milos,
>>
>> Thank you for taking the time to explain.  For editing Writer
>> documentation, I needed to learn about Hunspell, so understand the issue
>> you are facing.
>>
>> To help me understand this better, I have some questions:
>>
>> Is it correct that you want only the singular nominative form of nouns
>> in the index?
>>
>> What do you mean by "embedded" index entries?
>>
>> It sounds like surrounding a word or phrase to save it creates a
>> different result than inserting the cursor before or after the word or
>> phrase. But what is the difference in what is saved?
>>
>> The few times I have made an index entry by inserting the cursor before
>> or after a word (with no space between) only that word appears in the
>> index. Since we need to write the exact index entry in the index dialog,
>> it is puzzling that Writer would still grab neighboring words. This
>> seems like a bug. Do you know if it has been reported as a bug? Do we
>> know for sure that it is still a problem?
>>
>> I think it would be helpful to understand more about what is involved in
>> translation. My understanding is that some language translators write
>> their own documentation while others start with the English version. I
>> don't have a clear sense of how that works. I tend to make a lot of
>> changes, including sharpening text and rearranging content. However, I
>> don't have a good sense of what this means for translators. To what
>> extent does it matter if there are many as opposed to few changes for you?
>>
>> Thank you for whatever clarification and information you can provide.
>>
>> Cathy
>>
>> On 11/9/2018 11:10 AM, Milos Sramek wrote:
>> > Dear Cathy,
>> >
>> > I am the author of the request to not to "create index entries that
>> > surround words or phrases".
>> >
>> > The rationale is this: In English nouns have just two forms, one for
>> > singular and one for plural. In languages with inflection it is
>> > different, in Slovak we have up to 10 forms of a single word.
>> >
>> > In the case of "index entries that surround words or phrases" the
>> > "surrounded word or phrase" goes directly in the index. As we need to
>> > use in translation an appropriate inflected form of the word, in that
>> > case the inflected one will create an index entry, and not the basic
>> > (singular nominative) one.
>> >
>> > Example: There is an index entry "document" with three instances. I need
>> > to translate them as "dokument", "dokumentom" "dokumenty". These will
>> > create three independent entrees in the translated index, which is
>> > unacceptable. Therefore, we need those "embedded" index entries.
>> >
>> > LO somehow automates insertion of index term - when opening the Index
>> > entry dialog it highlights the nearest word and fills with it the Entry
>> > field. In order to avoid these "surrounded words", one needs to enter
>> > something else (maybe the suggested space after) or to place the entry
>> > to a neighboring word.
>> >
>> > Milos
>> >
>> >
>> > On 11/8/18 6:18 AM, Cathy Crumbley wrote:
>> >> Hi All,
>> >>
>> >> The Contributor Guide is extremely helpful and I deeply appreciate
>> >> that someone --presumably Jean--invested the time and energy to create
>> >> it. I would just like a little bit of clarification.
>> >>
>> >> Chapter 2 provides guidelines for indexing. On page 11, the guidelines
>> >> say: "The translators have requested that we do NOT create index
>> >> entries that surround words or phrases in the text. Instead, we need
>> >> to create entries that are embedded before or after the words or
>> >> phrases to be included in the index."
>> >>
>> >> What is the rationale for not creating index entries that surround
>> >> words or phrases? How does this help the translators?
>> >>
>> >> Then, in the next paragraph, it says "Either highlight the word or
>> >> phrase to add to the index or plac

Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Indexing Clarification Needed

[Cathy Crumbley]

I was trying to get clarification about the instructions on pages 11 and 
12 of Chapter 2 of the Documentation Contributors' Guide. The 
instructions are clear. It is the rationale behind them that I am trying 
to understand.



On 11/12/2018 10:06 PM, Drew Jensen wrote:

Hi,

Reading along and having Writer open trying to do what you seem to be 
asking and to be honest I am totally confused.


Here is what I think you are looking for.

You want me index a space character and give that a tag, which I 
suppose is us typing in the word that we didn't just select before we 
opened the dialog box.


Assuming that this word is in multiple places in the document, which I 
didn't select for the index, i then forego the ability to auto select 
all the instances and instead find them by hand, then select another 
space character and do it all over again and again.


Is that it?

On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 8:07 PM Cathy Crumbley > wrote:


HI Milos,

Thank you for taking the time to explain.  For editing Writer
documentation, I needed to learn about Hunspell, so understand the
issue
you are facing.

To help me understand this better, I have some questions:

Is it correct that you want only the singular nominative form of
nouns
in the index?

What do you mean by "embedded" index entries?

It sounds like surrounding a word or phrase to save it creates a
different result than inserting the cursor before or after the
word or
phrase. But what is the difference in what is saved?

The few times I have made an index entry by inserting the cursor
before
or after a word (with no space between) only that word appears in the
index. Since we need to write the exact index entry in the index
dialog,
it is puzzling that Writer would still grab neighboring words. This
seems like a bug. Do you know if it has been reported as a bug? Do we
know for sure that it is still a problem?

I think it would be helpful to understand more about what is
involved in
translation. My understanding is that some language translators write
their own documentation while others start with the English
version. I
don't have a clear sense of how that works. I tend to make a lot of
changes, including sharpening text and rearranging content.
However, I
don't have a good sense of what this means for translators. To what
extent does it matter if there are many as opposed to few changes
for you?

Thank you for whatever clarification and information you can provide.

Cathy

On 11/9/2018 11:10 AM, Milos Sramek wrote:
> Dear Cathy,
>
> I am the author of the request to not to "create index entries that
> surround words or phrases".
>
> The rationale is this: In English nouns have just two forms, one for
> singular and one for plural. In languages with inflection it is
> different, in Slovak we have up to 10 forms of a single word.
>
> In the case of "index entries that surround words or phrases" the
> "surrounded word or phrase" goes directly in the index. As we
need to
> use in translation an appropriate inflected form of the word, in
that
> case the inflected one will create an index entry, and not the basic
> (singular nominative) one.
>
> Example: There is an index entry "document" with three
instances. I need
> to translate them as "dokument", "dokumentom" "dokumenty". These
will
> create three independent entrees in the translated index, which is
> unacceptable. Therefore, we need those "embedded" index entries.
>
> LO somehow automates insertion of index term - when opening the
Index
> entry dialog it highlights the nearest word and fills with it
the Entry
> field. In order to avoid these "surrounded words", one needs to
enter
> something else (maybe the suggested space after) or to place the
entry
> to a neighboring word.
>
> Milos
>
>
> On 11/8/18 6:18 AM, Cathy Crumbley wrote:
>> Hi All,
>>
>> The Contributor Guide is extremely helpful and I deeply appreciate
>> that someone --presumably Jean--invested the time and energy to
create
>> it. I would just like a little bit of clarification.
>>
>> Chapter 2 provides guidelines for indexing. On page 11, the
guidelines
>> say: "The translators have requested that we do NOT create index
>> entries that surround words or phrases in the text. Instead, we
need
>> to create entries that are embedded before or after the words or
>> phrases to be included in the index."
>>
>> What is the rationale for not creating index entries that surround
>> words or phrases? How does this help the translators?
>>
>> Then, in the next paragraph, it says "Either highlight the word or
>> phrase to add to the index or place the cursor at the be

Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Indexing Clarification Needed

[Drew Jensen]

Hi,

Reading along and having Writer open trying to do what you seem to be
asking and to be honest I am totally confused.

Here is what I think you are looking for.

You want me index a space character and give that a tag, which I suppose is
us typing in the word that we didn't just select before we opened the
dialog box.

Assuming that this word is in multiple places in the document, which I
didn't select for the index, i then forego the ability to auto select all
the instances and instead find them by hand, then select another space
character and do it all over again and again.

Is that it?

On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 8:07 PM Cathy Crumbley  wrote:

> HI Milos,
>
> Thank you for taking the time to explain.  For editing Writer
> documentation, I needed to learn about Hunspell, so understand the issue
> you are facing.
>
> To help me understand this better, I have some questions:
>
> Is it correct that you want only the singular nominative form of nouns
> in the index?
>
> What do you mean by "embedded" index entries?
>
> It sounds like surrounding a word or phrase to save it creates a
> different result than inserting the cursor before or after the word or
> phrase. But what is the difference in what is saved?
>
> The few times I have made an index entry by inserting the cursor before
> or after a word (with no space between) only that word appears in the
> index. Since we need to write the exact index entry in the index dialog,
> it is puzzling that Writer would still grab neighboring words. This
> seems like a bug. Do you know if it has been reported as a bug? Do we
> know for sure that it is still a problem?
>
> I think it would be helpful to understand more about what is involved in
> translation. My understanding is that some language translators write
> their own documentation while others start with the English version. I
> don't have a clear sense of how that works. I tend to make a lot of
> changes, including sharpening text and rearranging content. However, I
> don't have a good sense of what this means for translators. To what
> extent does it matter if there are many as opposed to few changes for you?
>
> Thank you for whatever clarification and information you can provide.
>
> Cathy
>
> On 11/9/2018 11:10 AM, Milos Sramek wrote:
> > Dear Cathy,
> >
> > I am the author of the request to not to "create index entries that
> > surround words or phrases".
> >
> > The rationale is this: In English nouns have just two forms, one for
> > singular and one for plural. In languages with inflection it is
> > different, in Slovak we have up to 10 forms of a single word.
> >
> > In the case of "index entries that surround words or phrases" the
> > "surrounded word or phrase" goes directly in the index. As we need to
> > use in translation an appropriate inflected form of the word, in that
> > case the inflected one will create an index entry, and not the basic
> > (singular nominative) one.
> >
> > Example: There is an index entry "document" with three instances. I need
> > to translate them as "dokument", "dokumentom" "dokumenty". These will
> > create three independent entrees in the translated index, which is
> > unacceptable. Therefore, we need those "embedded" index entries.
> >
> > LO somehow automates insertion of index term - when opening the Index
> > entry dialog it highlights the nearest word and fills with it the Entry
> > field. In order to avoid these "surrounded words", one needs to enter
> > something else (maybe the suggested space after) or to place the entry
> > to a neighboring word.
> >
> > Milos
> >
> >
> > On 11/8/18 6:18 AM, Cathy Crumbley wrote:
> >> Hi All,
> >>
> >> The Contributor Guide is extremely helpful and I deeply appreciate
> >> that someone --presumably Jean--invested the time and energy to create
> >> it. I would just like a little bit of clarification.
> >>
> >> Chapter 2 provides guidelines for indexing. On page 11, the guidelines
> >> say: "The translators have requested that we do NOT create index
> >> entries that surround words or phrases in the text. Instead, we need
> >> to create entries that are embedded before or after the words or
> >> phrases to be included in the index."
> >>
> >> What is the rationale for not creating index entries that surround
> >> words or phrases? How does this help the translators?
> >>
> >> Then, in the next paragraph, it says "Either highlight the word or
> >> phrase to add to the index or place the cursor at the beginning of the
> >> word."
> >>
> >> This appears to contradict the previous paragraph, where it says to
> >> not highlight entire words and phrases. What should the guideline be?
> >>
> >> Two lines later, it says: "DO NOT simply accept the word or phrase
> >> shown in the Entry box. Instead, first change the word or phrase in
> >> some way, for example by typing a blank space at the end or (if
> >> appropriate) changing an initial uppercase letter to lowercase.
> >>
> >> This requirement seems puzzling. I am sure that the

Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Indexing Clarification Needed

[Cathy Crumbley]

HI Milos,

Thank you for taking the time to explain.  For editing Writer 
documentation, I needed to learn about Hunspell, so understand the issue 
you are facing.


To help me understand this better, I have some questions:

Is it correct that you want only the singular nominative form of nouns 
in the index?


What do you mean by "embedded" index entries?

It sounds like surrounding a word or phrase to save it creates a 
different result than inserting the cursor before or after the word or 
phrase. But what is the difference in what is saved?


The few times I have made an index entry by inserting the cursor before 
or after a word (with no space between) only that word appears in the 
index. Since we need to write the exact index entry in the index dialog, 
it is puzzling that Writer would still grab neighboring words. This 
seems like a bug. Do you know if it has been reported as a bug? Do we 
know for sure that it is still a problem?


I think it would be helpful to understand more about what is involved in 
translation. My understanding is that some language translators write 
their own documentation while others start with the English version. I 
don't have a clear sense of how that works. I tend to make a lot of 
changes, including sharpening text and rearranging content. However, I 
don't have a good sense of what this means for translators. To what 
extent does it matter if there are many as opposed to few changes for you?


Thank you for whatever clarification and information you can provide.

Cathy

On 11/9/2018 11:10 AM, Milos Sramek wrote:

Dear Cathy,

I am the author of the request to not to "create index entries that
surround words or phrases".

The rationale is this: In English nouns have just two forms, one for
singular and one for plural. In languages with inflection it is
different, in Slovak we have up to 10 forms of a single word.

In the case of "index entries that surround words or phrases" the
"surrounded word or phrase" goes directly in the index. As we need to
use in translation an appropriate inflected form of the word, in that
case the inflected one will create an index entry, and not the basic
(singular nominative) one.

Example: There is an index entry "document" with three instances. I need
to translate them as "dokument", "dokumentom" "dokumenty". These will
create three independent entrees in the translated index, which is
unacceptable. Therefore, we need those "embedded" index entries.

LO somehow automates insertion of index term - when opening the Index
entry dialog it highlights the nearest word and fills with it the Entry
field. In order to avoid these "surrounded words", one needs to enter
something else (maybe the suggested space after) or to place the entry
to a neighboring word.

Milos


On 11/8/18 6:18 AM, Cathy Crumbley wrote:

Hi All,

The Contributor Guide is extremely helpful and I deeply appreciate
that someone --presumably Jean--invested the time and energy to create
it. I would just like a little bit of clarification.

Chapter 2 provides guidelines for indexing. On page 11, the guidelines
say: "The translators have requested that we do NOT create index
entries that surround words or phrases in the text. Instead, we need
to create entries that are embedded before or after the words or
phrases to be included in the index."

What is the rationale for not creating index entries that surround
words or phrases? How does this help the translators?

Then, in the next paragraph, it says "Either highlight the word or
phrase to add to the index or place the cursor at the beginning of the
word."

This appears to contradict the previous paragraph, where it says to
not highlight entire words and phrases. What should the guideline be?

Two lines later, it says: "DO NOT simply accept the word or phrase
shown in the Entry box. Instead, first change the word or phrase in
some way, for example by typing a blank space at the end or (if
appropriate) changing an initial uppercase letter to lowercase.

This requirement seems puzzling. I am sure that there are good reasons
for changing the word or phrase and would appreciate some insight.

Thanks for whatever clarification people can provide.

Cathy




--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy

Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Indexing Clarification Needed

[Jean Weber]

Olivier, the question is about (alphabetic) index entries, which are not
the same thing as number range fields.

Jean

On Fri, 9 Nov 2018 at 01:30 Olivier Hallot 
wrote:

>
> Em 08/11/2018 04:12, Jean Weber escreveu:
> >> Chapter 2 provides guidelines for indexing. On page 11, the guidelines
> >> say: "The translators have requested that we do NOT create index entries
> >> that surround words or phrases in the text. Instead, we need to create
> >> entries that are embedded before or after the words or phrases to be
> >> included in the index."
> >>
> >> What is the rationale for not creating index entries that surround words
> >> or phrases? How does this help the translators?
> > Olivier or Sophie or someone can provide the technical explanation. My
> > understanding is that it interferes with the translation software
> > somehow.
> >
> Oh yes, that's likely me. It was because of field references to *custom*
> number range inside the text. For standard number range such as Table,
> Illustration, Figure, frame etc... available in Autocaption settings,
> translation seems to be handled well and can be carried at the caption
> paragraph. When it comes to custom number range field, you can't translate.
>
> The issue raised when I was translating A. Pitonyak's well known macro
> book, where the custom number range field "Listing" was untranslatable
> and forcing translation at caption paragraph broke the references to it.
> The right approach then is to manually translate the caption and
> reference the number range field only by its number, which is invariant.
>
> Kind regards
>
> --
> Olivier Hallot
> LibreOffice Documentation Coordinator
> Comunidade LibreOffice
> Rio de Janeiro - Brasil - Local Time: UTC-03:00
> http://tdf.io/joinus
>
>

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy

Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Indexing Clarification Needed

[Cathy Crumbley]

Are you saying that an issue arises when there is a custom number field 
inside an index entry? That seems highly unlikely.  Perhaps I am not 
following what you are saying.


On 11/8/2018 10:29 AM, Olivier Hallot wrote:

Em 08/11/2018 04:12, Jean Weber escreveu:

Chapter 2 provides guidelines for indexing. On page 11, the guidelines
say: "The translators have requested that we do NOT create index entries
that surround words or phrases in the text. Instead, we need to create
entries that are embedded before or after the words or phrases to be
included in the index."

What is the rationale for not creating index entries that surround words
or phrases? How does this help the translators?

Olivier or Sophie or someone can provide the technical explanation. My
understanding is that it interferes with the translation software
somehow.


Oh yes, that's likely me. It was because of field references to *custom*
number range inside the text. For standard number range such as Table,
Illustration, Figure, frame etc... available in Autocaption settings,
translation seems to be handled well and can be carried at the caption
paragraph. When it comes to custom number range field, you can't translate.

The issue raised when I was translating A. Pitonyak's well known macro
book, where the custom number range field "Listing" was untranslatable
and forcing translation at caption paragraph broke the references to it.
The right approach then is to manually translate the caption and
reference the number range field only by its number, which is invariant.

Kind regards




--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy

Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Indexing Clarification Needed

[Olivier Hallot]

Em 08/11/2018 04:12, Jean Weber escreveu:
>> Chapter 2 provides guidelines for indexing. On page 11, the guidelines
>> say: "The translators have requested that we do NOT create index entries
>> that surround words or phrases in the text. Instead, we need to create
>> entries that are embedded before or after the words or phrases to be
>> included in the index."
>>
>> What is the rationale for not creating index entries that surround words
>> or phrases? How does this help the translators?
> Olivier or Sophie or someone can provide the technical explanation. My
> understanding is that it interferes with the translation software
> somehow.
>
Oh yes, that's likely me. It was because of field references to *custom*
number range inside the text. For standard number range such as Table,
Illustration, Figure, frame etc... available in Autocaption settings,
translation seems to be handled well and can be carried at the caption
paragraph. When it comes to custom number range field, you can't translate.

The issue raised when I was translating A. Pitonyak's well known macro
book, where the custom number range field "Listing" was untranslatable
and forcing translation at caption paragraph broke the references to it.
The right approach then is to manually translate the caption and
reference the number range field only by its number, which is invariant.

Kind regards

-- 
Olivier Hallot
LibreOffice Documentation Coordinator
Comunidade LibreOffice 
Rio de Janeiro - Brasil - Local Time: UTC-03:00
http://tdf.io/joinus 


-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy

Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Indexing Clarification Needed

[Jean Weber]

Hi Cathy,
Several people contributed to the Contributor Guide, and some parts of
it are out of date, as you know.

Some comments inline below.

On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 3:18 PM Cathy Crumbley  wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> The Contributor Guide is extremely helpful and I deeply appreciate that
> someone --presumably Jean--invested the time and energy to create it. I
> would just like a little bit of clarification.
>
> Chapter 2 provides guidelines for indexing. On page 11, the guidelines
> say: "The translators have requested that we do NOT create index entries
> that surround words or phrases in the text. Instead, we need to create
> entries that are embedded before or after the words or phrases to be
> included in the index."
>
> What is the rationale for not creating index entries that surround words
> or phrases? How does this help the translators?

Olivier or Sophie or someone can provide the technical explanation. My
understanding is that it interferes with the translation software
somehow.

> Then, in the next paragraph, it says "Either highlight the word or
> phrase to add to the index or place the cursor at the beginning of the
> word."
>
> This appears to contradict the previous paragraph, where it says to not
> highlight entire words and phrases. What should the guideline be?

This is ambiguous wording on my part. There is a difference between
"highlighting" the word or phrase before indexing it and "surrounding"
the word or phrase with the index entry itself, but it's hard to
explain.

> Two lines later, it says: "DO NOT simply accept the word or phrase shown
> in the Entry box. Instead, first change the word or phrase in some way,
> for example by typing a blank space at the end or (if appropriate)
> changing an initial uppercase letter to lowercase.
>
> This requirement seems puzzling. I am sure that there are good reasons
> for changing the word or phrase and would appreciate some insight.

That is simply an effective way to ensure that the index entry does
NOT "surround" the word or phrase, but instead is embedded just before
it. There are other ways, which might be better.

BTW, I think some of the indexing may have changed in the software;
I've recently noticed some things working differently (at least some
of the time) than they did when I wrote those instructions. If so, the
instructions may be out of date and need rewriting to match reality.

> Thanks for whatever clarification people can provide.
>
> Cathy
>

Regards, Jean

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy