Re: [DX-CHAT] DX-PEDITIONS FOR US POOR FOLKS?
1 I have been on a number of group and single DXpeditions. It has cost me thousands of dollars to participate. WAS YOUR CHOICE AND HOPE PLEASURE 2 I feel that I have already contributed enough money to support the DX community by operating as DX AS ABOVE 3 Maybe it should be mandatory for anyone to reach the top of the honour role, they must have operated as significant DX YES I AGREEAND ALSO REQUIRED TO EAT 2 DOGS, 3 CATS..ETC..BE SERIOUS..I HOPE YOU JOCKING Chris - Original Message - From: Doug Renwick ve...@sasktel.net To: dx-chat@njdxa.org Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 02:55 Subject: RE: [DX-CHAT] DX-PEDITIONS FOR US POOR FOLKS? There is another point of view to consider. I have been on a number of group and single DXpeditions. It has cost me thousands of dollars to participate. I feel that I have already contributed enough money to support the DX community by operating as DX. Anything that I may contribute above what I have already invested is my choice. I do not owe anyone, anything. Maybe it should be mandatory for anyone to reach the top of the honour role, they must have operated as significant DX. Doug Logic, reason and science don't define everything in this world. -Original Message- Ryan hit the nail on the head, gents. Please download and analyze Don's PowerPoint presentation when it becomes available on the site. There are two facts that become blatantly obvious. One, the cost-per-QSO incurred by the DXpeditions to bring you that rare on is very high. In some cases, the cost they bear to bring you that new one is over $5.00 USD PER CONTACT. In other less-difficult-to-get-to places it's in the $3 range. So those who toss $2 or an IRC into the envelope and nothing more are putting more of the burden on your fellow hams. This is not sustainable as prices to put these operations on increase. I can see it if you work a guy once or twice, request a bureau card or wait out the LoTW hit or toss a couple of bucks into an envelope. It's not right if you picked up 20 greenies on Clublog. Sorry. They're not telling you that you have to *pay* $5 or $3 per Q, but that's what THEY HAVE SPENT to bring you the chance. The second issue is that certain parts of the world are more readily willing to lend financial support through QSL-request donations than other parts of the world. I didn't take notes during Don's presentation but I'm pretty sure the European donation percentage was infinitesimally small as compared to the NA donation base (again, as averaged over 20-odd years by major DXpeditions). Less-than-1% if memory serves--Don, if I'm wrong, please feel free to beat me about the head with a large abacus. Regardless of the exact percentages, it's irresponsible and outright selfish to sit there and work these big-league ops and not toss something into the hat not as a way to say thank you (which is a great gesture in and of itself) but as a way to ensure they'll be able to commit to going to that one place you need that'll put you over the top and into the Honor Roll or to HR#1, maybe. If you're so poor that you can't afford $10 or $20 a couple of times a year, when you've bagged a biggie across a bunch of bands and modes, then there's something wrong and I definitely think you should reconsider your choice of hobby, or your desire to be a DXer. Yeah, there are DXpeditions that I work once or twice and I'll send an SASE or an IRC or even request a bureau card for. These are nominally the ones I worked just 'cuz they were there and I thought gee, it's been a couple of years since I worked entity on band. But if it's something I spend 2 weeks chasing up and down the spectrum, damned straight I'll toss at least $10-25 into the hat, maybe more if money's not as big an issue as it is now. - pjd -Original Message- From: kf...@njdxa.org [mailto:kf...@njdxa.org] On Behalf Of Ryan Jairam I don't begrudge a DXpedition for asking for a few $ or € to cover their costs. It's your choice to work them. It may not fit someone's definition of ham spirit but I also understand that without the donations, many rare entities wouldn't be activated. It's just how it is. Some hams spend more than just money - they risk life and limb, just so you can get a QSO in the log. Ryan, N2RJ --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org --- --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector
Re: [DX-CHAT] DX-PEDITIONS FOR US POOR FOLKS?
not going to go either. If I do go, I'm not going to expect to recoup my vacation costs from those who worked me, either. But -- that's not what the main focus here is. You're not going to Heard Island, or Bouvet, or Navassa, or Baker Howland, etc., for $5000 either. Between logistics, licensing, boat chargers, food fuel, you're talking in the neighborhood (today) of US$500,000. Don's plea, as I recall (and Don, please correct me if I'm wrong) was that the DX community as a whole, world-wide, find a way to continue to fund these trips. Or they will stop, and the rarest of the rare will be off the air for decades to come. The cost-per-QSO breakdown simply gives you, or should give you, an appreciation for what was involved. It was not meant (at least as I heard it) as a suggestion that this should be a mandatory minimum amount that you should include along with your QSL request. Don also had a comment that more should join their local DX associations, societies, foundations, etc., in order to strengthen those organizations, and permit THEM to continue to help fund future super-rare operations. Let's not let that get lost in the discussion either. The bottom line is that we as a community simply can't expect others to go to these places that we seek to contact purely for the thrill of a pileup. Because when the costs to go far outstrip the means of the operating team, they won't be able to go whether they want the thrill or not. 73 -Original Message- From: kf...@njdxa.org [mailto:kf...@njdxa.org] On Behalf Of Mecseri Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 4:11 PM To: li...@w2irt.net Cc: dx-chat@njdxa.org Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] DX-PEDITIONS FOR US POOR FOLKS? -pjd is making a valid point, but. On the other side of the coin, how can you put a price on the thrill of being on the receiving end of a huge pileup for a week or two???. If it cost me $5,000 to go to a Dx Expedition, I would not compute my cost per contact. If I would have to, I should not be going.. Just my 2cents worth Lou KE1F On 5/20/2012 3:47 PM, Peter W2IRT wrote: Ryan hit the nail on the head, gents. Please download and analyze Don's PowerPoint presentation when it becomes available on the site. There are two facts that become blatantly obvious. One, the cost-per-QSO incurred by the DXpeditions to bring you that rare on is very high. In some cases, the cost they bear to bring you that new one is over $5.00 USD PER CONTACT. In other less-difficult-to-get-to places it's in the $3 range. So those who toss $2 or an IRC into the envelope and nothing more are putting more of the burden on your fellow hams. This is not sustainable as prices to put these operations on increase. I can see it if you work a guy once or twice, request a bureau card or wait out the LoTW hit or toss a couple of bucks into an envelope. It's not right if you picked up 20 greenies on Clublog. Sorry. They're not telling you that you have to *pay* $5 or $3 per Q, but that's what THEY HAVE SPENT to bring you the chance. The second issue is that certain parts of the world are more readily willing to lend financial support through QSL-request donations than other parts of the world. I didn't take notes during Don's presentation but I'm pretty sure the European donation percentage was infinitesimally small as compared to the NA donation base (again, as averaged over 20-odd years by major DXpeditions). Less-than-1% if memory serves--Don, if I'm wrong, please feel free to beat me about the head with a large abacus. Regardless of the exact percentages, it's irresponsible and outright selfish to sit there and work these big-league ops and not toss something into the hat not as a way to say thank you (which is a great gesture in and of itself) but as a way to ensure they'll be able to commit to going to that one place you need that'll put you over the top and into the Honor Roll or to HR#1, maybe. If you're so poor that you can't afford $10 or $20 a couple of times a year, when you've bagged a biggie across a bunch of bands and modes, then there's something wrong and I definitely think you should reconsider your choice of hobby, or your desire to be a DXer. Yeah, there are DXpeditions that I work once or twice and I'll send an SASE or an IRC or even request a bureau card for. These are nominally the ones I worked just 'cuz they were there and I thought gee, it's been a couple of years since I workedentity onband. But if it's something I spend 2 weeks chasing up and down the spectrum, damned straight I'll toss at least $10-25 into the hat, maybe more if money's not as big an issue as it is now. - pjd -Original Message- From: kf...@njdxa.org [mailto:kf...@njdxa.org] On Behalf Of Ryan Jairam I don't begrudge a DXpedition for asking for a few $ or € to covver their costs. It's your choice to work them. It may not fit someone's definition of ham spirit but I also understand that without the donations, many rare entities
Re: [DX-CHAT] DX-PEDITIONS FOR US POOR FOLKS?
What about the rule 97.113 (a) (2) I think we are getting into a grey area here. Also, does the dx operator think we should pay for part of his vacation? After all I know of many dxpeditions to the Carribean resort Islands. With tongue in cheek, maybe the Socata Island could be thought of as a vacation spot in the Indian Ocean. There are hotels there and I'm not saying it is. It was very difficult for them to operate around the clock I am not saying they are charging for QSL's because they will eventualy put their logs on LOTW. Don't misunderstand me, I do think we SHOULD donate what we can to support a DXpedition. I just put what I said above for something to think about. Gus Browning only collected for postage after he married a rich widow and went all over the world. I knew Gus very well, but he spent all his money and died a pauper. There are hams over the world who are $$$ collectors and never send cards. While I'm on my soapbox, there are hams in certain European countries who will QRM the DX station. When 7O6T was on 15M on RTTY he worked Europe for many hours. Then he went to the JA's and Asia. Finally he asked for only NA. Then he was QRMed for several hours by a station who kept transmitting only NA NA NA continously over and over. I rotated my beam until he was nulled out. Guess what? The end of my beam element was pointing to EU!!! And I would bet a dollar or two that I know what country he was in. Jim - Original Message - From: Crownhaven crownha...@bellsouth.net To: w9sz.z...@gmail.com Cc: dx-chat dx-chat@njdxa.org Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 9:14 PM Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] DX-PEDITIONS FOR US POOR FOLKS? I'm thinking we all can make the choices we want to make. In terms of DXpeditions costing a lot of money, if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen?? However, any operator has the right to set his own rules for QSL cards, etc. And the rest of us have a choice as to whether we want to abide by those terms. Let's call it free enterprise. We're beginning to sound likeI won't say it here. Steve, N4JQQ Zack Widup wrote: First off, great presentation Don! I thought it gave a great perspective of what these icebreaker DXpeditions and others to exotic places cost. Someone has to pay for them. The operators on some DXpeditions often bear a great deal of the cost themselves. I know a few people who have gotten involved in a DXpedition without knowing what it would cost them personally. They put forth an amount of money that hurt them personally financially, hoping they could get at least some of it back. Some didn't - they have not been on a DXpedition since. Live and learn, I guess. And our loss when a fine operator can't or won't go on another DXpedition. I know some of the people who were on the VP8ORK DXpedition. Some of the fees they had to pay were downright weird - and sounded exorbitant to me. But what are you going to do? Refuse to pay a fee to get your equipment out of storage? You would be in a bad position thousands of miles from home, trying to meet an expedition timetable and unable to speak the language of the country, trying to negotiate with those people. If you want the DXpedition, if you want it there for you to work, it seems only right to me that you voluntarily contribute what you can. Not that it has to be $5 per QSO, but every little bit helps. None of the DXpeditions I wished to have confirmed recently have demanded any fees for QSL'ing. But I do voluntarily send them something. I hope it helps just a little. If enough people do that, it increases the chance that they will go on another DXpedition to a rare place in a few years. And I agree - if the DXpedition so chooses to send out confirmation to contributors first, that is their choice and it doesn't mean that non-contributors are not going to get their confirmation. If you had to wait for 20 years for an entity to be put on the air, what's a couple extra months waiting for the confirmation? 73, Zack W9SZ On 5/20/12, Don Greenbaum d...@aurumtel.com wrote: Who is demanding any fees for a QSL? Name one DXpedition that refuses to answer bureau cards? Or a major DXPedition that doesn't post their logs to LOTW (most within 6 months). Most foundations require that in return for funding. Just because someone who donates $5 gets his card first does not translate into extortion for those who opt out of supporting dxpeditions and wait for the slow method. 73 Don N1DG At 06:45 PM 5/20/2012, Don wrote: Go or don't go. But demanding a fee for a qsl is still extortion in the true sense of the term Sent from my iPod On May 20, 2012, at 6:31 PM, Ron Notarius W3WN wn3...@verizon.net wrote: Lou, Once again, context is important. Don's presentation was not talking about the casual DXpedition that might cost one or two people a few thousand. Yes, this was mentioned, but it was not the main focus
Re: [DX-CHAT] DX-PEDITIONS FOR US POOR FOLKS?
is important. Don's presentation was not talking about the casual DXpedition that might cost one or two people a few thousand. Yes, this was mentioned, but it was not the main focus. And within THAT context only, if I can't afford to go on a vacation to the Caribbean that happens to include a radio op for $5K, I'm not going to go either. If I do go, I'm not going to expect to recoup my vacation costs from those who worked me, either. But -- that's not what the main focus here is. You're not going to Heard Island, or Bouvet, or Navassa, or Baker Howland, etc., for $5000 either. Between logistics, licensing, boat chargers, food fuel, you're talking in the neighborhood (today) of US$500,000. Don's plea, as I recall (and Don, please correct me if I'm wrong) was that the DX community as a whole, world-wide, find a way to continue to fund these trips. Or they will stop, and the rarest of the rare will be off the air for decades to come. The cost-per-QSO breakdown simply gives you, or should give you, an appreciation for what was involved. It was not meant (at least as I heard it) as a suggestion that this should be a mandatory minimum amount that you should include along with your QSL request. Don also had a comment that more should join their local DX associations, societies, foundations, etc., in order to strengthen those organizations, and permit THEM to continue to help fund future super-rare operations. Let's not let that get lost in the discussion either. The bottom line is that we as a community simply can't expect others to go to these places that we seek to contact purely for the thrill of a pileup. Because when the costs to go far outstrip the means of the operating team, they won't be able to go whether they want the thrill or not. 73 -Original Message- From: kf...@njdxa.org [mailto:kf...@njdxa.org] On Behalf Of Mecseri Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 4:11 PM To: li...@w2irt.net Cc: dx-chat@njdxa.org Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] DX-PEDITIONS FOR US POOR FOLKS? -pjd is making a valid point, but. On the other side of the coin, how can you put a price on the thrill of being on the receiving end of a huge pileup for a week or two???. If it cost me $5,000 to go to a Dx Expedition, I would not compute my cost per contact. If I would have to, I should not be going.. Just my 2cents worth Lou KE1F On 5/20/2012 3:47 PM, Peter W2IRT wrote: Ryan hit the nail on the head, gents. Please download and analyze Don's PowerPoint presentation when it becomes available on the site. There are two facts that become blatantly obvious. One, the cost-per-QSO incurred by the DXpeditions to bring you that rare on is very high. In some cases, the cost they bear to bring you that new one is over $5.00 USD PER CONTACT. In other less-difficult-to-get-to places it's in the $3 range. So those who toss $2 or an IRC into the envelope and nothing more are putting more of the burden on your fellow hams. This is not sustainable as prices to put these operations on increase. I can see it if you work a guy once or twice, request a bureau card or wait out the LoTW hit or toss a couple of bucks into an envelope. It's not right if you picked up 20 greenies on Clublog. Sorry. They're not telling you that you have to *pay* $5 or $3 per Q, but that's what THEY HAVE SPENT to bring you the chance. The second issue is that certain parts of the world are more readily willing to lend financial support through QSL-request donations than other parts of the world. I didn't take notes during Don's presentation but I'm pretty sure the European donation percentage was infinitesimally small as compared to the NA donation base (again, as averaged over 20-odd years by major DXpeditions). Less-than-1% if memory serves--Don, if I'm wrong, please feel free to beat me about the head with a large abacus. Regardless of the exact percentages, it's irresponsible and outright selfish to sit there and work these big-league ops and not toss something into the hat not as a way to say thank you (which is a great gesture in and of itself) but as a way to ensure they'll be able to commit to going to that one place you need that'll put you over the top and into the Honor Roll or to HR#1, maybe. If you're so poor that you can't afford $10 or $20 a couple of times a year, when you've bagged a biggie across a bunch of bands and modes, then there's something wrong and I definitely think you should reconsider your choice of hobby, or your desire to be a DXer. Yeah, there are DXpeditions that I work once or twice and I'll send an SASE or an IRC or even request a bureau card for. These are nominally the ones I worked just 'cuz they were there and I thought gee, it's been a couple of years since I workedentity onband. But if it's something I spend 2 weeks chasing up and down the spectrum, damned straight I'll toss at least $10-25 into the hat, maybe more if money's not as big an issue as it is now. - pjd -Original Message- From: kf...@njdxa.org
Re: [DX-CHAT] DX-PEDITIONS FOR US POOR FOLKS?
Thanks Joe. 73, Steve Lack of money is the root of all evil. S.C. From: Joe Subich, W4TV w...@subich.com To: Crownhaven crownha...@bellsouth.net Cc: dx-chat dx-chat@njdxa.org Sent: Mon, May 21, 2012 8:16:51 AM Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] DX-PEDITIONS FOR US POOR FOLKS? On 5/21/2012 7:21 AM, Crownhaven wrote: When was the last time a DX operation was disqualified for QSLing practices? Seriously. Maybe some should be. However, I doubt that the DXCC Desk has the balls to disqualify a high profile DXpedition organizer. Seriously! 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 5/21/2012 7:21 AM, Crownhaven wrote: When was the last time a DX operation was disqualified for QSLing practices? Seriously. Steve, N4JQQ Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: On 5/20/2012 9:14 PM, Crownhaven wrote: However, any operator has the right to set his own rules for QSL cards, etc. And the rest of us have a choice as to whether we want to abide by those terms. Absolutely not! No operator has a right to discriminate in his QSL policy or hold the QSL hostage in return for a contribution in excess of the cost of mailing that QSL. To do so is de facto grounds for disqualification under DXCC Rules (12 d): d) Blatant inequities in confirmation (QSL) procedures. Continued refusal to issue QSLs under certain circumstances may lead to disqualification. Any large DXpedition can - and should - seek individual contributions before the operation. I would argue that they have a right to cancel an operation if the support goals have not been met. However, the policy of not uploading logs to LotW for six months or a year after a DXPedition, not sending bureau QSLs for six months to a year after a DXPedition and policies of not mailing QSLs to non-contributors until after the end of the calendar year should be loudly and roundly denounced. Given the ease of uploading QSOs to LotW - after all it is no more difficult in uploading the raw logs to ClubLog daily which has become standard practice for most major DXpeditions - there is *no* valid reason for not uploading the raw logs immediately after the operation if not daily during the operation. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 5/20/2012 9:14 PM, Crownhaven wrote: I'm thinking we all can make the choices we want to make. In terms of DXpeditions costing a lot of money, if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen?? However, any operator has the right to set his own rules for QSL cards, etc. And the rest of us have a choice as to whether we want to abide by those terms. Let's call it free enterprise. We're beginning to sound likeI won't say it here. Steve, N4JQQ Zack Widup wrote: First off, great presentation Don! I thought it gave a great perspective of what these icebreaker DXpeditions and others to exotic places cost. Someone has to pay for them. The operators on some DXpeditions often bear a great deal of the cost themselves. I know a few people who have gotten involved in a DXpedition without knowing what it would cost them personally. They put forth an amount of money that hurt them personally financially, hoping they could get at least some of it back. Some didn't - they have not been on a DXpedition since. Live and learn, I guess. And our loss when a fine operator can't or won't go on another DXpedition. I know some of the people who were on the VP8ORK DXpedition. Some of the fees they had to pay were downright weird - and sounded exorbitant to me. But what are you going to do? Refuse to pay a fee to get your equipment out of storage? You would be in a bad position thousands of miles from home, trying to meet an expedition timetable and unable to speak the language of the country, trying to negotiate with those people. If you want the DXpedition, if you want it there for you to work, it seems only right to me that you voluntarily contribute what you can. Not that it has to be $5 per QSO, but every little bit helps. None of the DXpeditions I wished to have confirmed recently have demanded any fees for QSL'ing. But I do voluntarily send them something. I hope it helps just a little. If enough people do that, it increases the chance that they will go on another DXpedition to a rare place in a few years. And I agree - if the DXpedition so chooses to send out confirmation to contributors first, that is their choice and it doesn't mean that non-contributors are not going to get their confirmation. If you had to wait for 20 years for an entity to be put on the air, what's a couple extra months waiting for the confirmation? 73, Zack W9SZ On 5/20/12, Don Greenbaum d...@aurumtel.com wrote: Who is demanding any fees for a QSL? Name one DXpedition that refuses to answer bureau cards? Or a major DXPedition that doesn't post their logs to LOTW (most within 6 months). Most foundations require that in return for funding. Just because someone who donates $5 gets his card first does
Re: [DX-CHAT] DX-PEDITIONS FOR US POOR FOLKS?
I think we've beaten this dead horse enough to tenderize it nicely We've gone from coversation (CHAT) to getting a tad nosy out of jointy So let us say adeiu and farewell to the topic and move on Let's talk about all the nice things we bought at Dayton?? Let's talk about the clown who looked at a DSTAR HT I was selling for someone for $300 and offered me $50, then got testy when I told him NO and he agrued for 5 minutes that I was unreasonable. Thanks for understanding Steve KF2TI --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org ---
Re: [DX-CHAT] DX-PEDITIONS FOR US POOR FOLKS?
I didn't buy too much at Dayton. I ogled the new transceivers though. They look like they will take at least several months to learn how to use! I bought a few mystery boxes that are supposed to work in the microwave range of frequencies. They were practically given away so I will at least have some more junquebox parts. I spent a lot of time in the FRC and SMC hospitality suites at the Crowne Plaza. Also did the KCDXC CW Pileup Contest. I got 42 callsigns correct. Not great but not too bad, either. It was fun. In fact, the whole weekend was fun! Now I just need to catch up on sleep. 73, Zack W9SZ On 5/21/12, kf...@optonline.net kf...@optonline.net wrote: I think we've beaten this dead horse enough to tenderize it nicely We've gone from coversation (CHAT) to getting a tad nosy out of jointy So let us say adeiu and farewell to the topic and move on Let's talk about all the nice things we bought at Dayton?? Let's talk about the clown who looked at a DSTAR HT I was selling for someone for $300 and offered me $50, then got testy when I told him NO and he agrued for 5 minutes that I was unreasonable. Thanks for understanding Steve KF2TI --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org --- --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org ---
Re: [DX-CHAT] DX-PEDITIONS FOR US POOR FOLKS?
I was there Friday only. Saw the entire flea market and everything inside. I'm sure I missed something. Bought a K5 Logikey. Have K1 and K3, what the hell. Advantage over K3 is it takes batteries. K1 did but for some reason, they dropped that option with the K3. Great keyers. Also splurged and bought a Pixel Technologies 38 loop antenna to see if I can hear a little better on 40 and 80. It will be fun to experiment with. At the very least, I might get better reception on AM BCB. Looked at the Kenwood TS-990S. I'm a Kenwood guy. Running TS-590S here and love it. Also have 870, 850, 830, etc. I didn't like the appearance of the 990S. Too darn big. It wasn't a working model so I might change my mind after it gets out to the consumer and someone evaluates it. How did you guys compare this year's attendance with last and the year before that? That's it. Steve, N4JQQ Zack Widup wrote: I didn't buy too much at Dayton. I ogled the new transceivers though. They look like they will take at least several months to learn how to use! I bought a few mystery boxes that are supposed to work in the microwave range of frequencies. They were practically given away so I will at least have some more junquebox parts. I spent a lot of time in the FRC and SMC hospitality suites at the Crowne Plaza. Also did the KCDXC CW Pileup Contest. I got 42 callsigns correct. Not great but not too bad, either. It was fun. In fact, the whole weekend was fun! Now I just need to catch up on sleep. 73, Zack W9SZ On 5/21/12, kf...@optonline.net kf...@optonline.net wrote: I think we've beaten this dead horse enough to tenderize it nicely We've gone from coversation (CHAT) to getting a tad nosy out of jointy So let us say adeiu and farewell to the topic and move on Let's talk about all the nice things we bought at Dayton?? Let's talk about the clown who looked at a DSTAR HT I was selling for someone for $300 and offered me $50, then got testy when I told him NO and he agrued for 5 minutes that I was unreasonable. Thanks for understanding Steve KF2TI --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org --- --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org --- --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org ---
Re: [DX-CHAT] DX-PEDITIONS FOR US POOR FOLKS?
On 5/21/2012 JIM Abercrombie wrote: What about the rule 97.113 (a) (2) In case you haven't noticed, 97.113 doesn't apply to DX - at all. It's a US law -- 73 de KG2V - Charles Gallo Quality Custom Machine-shop work for the radio amateur (sm) --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org ---
[DX-CHAT] DX-PEDITIONS FOR US POOR FOLKS?
What about us who have limited incomes? I was preparing for retirement, but unfortunately I became disabled before I was vested in the retirement system. How are we supposed to buy our QSL's? I have a fairly good station and I have been able to work all the recent DXpeditions. I was at #66 in Zone 5 from Yemen. I got my station by being very frugal with my money. If I were able I would be glad to donate and I have donated small sums. There are those who are less fortunate than me. How are they going to buy their cards? It seems to me they think everyone is fortunate financially as the guys who go on DXpeditions. I belong to the ARRL and LOTW. It reminds me of the ham I know who told me the other day that everyone could be able to invest money so they can retire, when I know there are thousands who have more month left after the money is gone. I guess if you can't afford this hobby, you should go buy yourself a kite and a ball of string. --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org ---
Re: [DX-CHAT] DX-PEDITIONS FOR US POOR FOLKS?
If you don't have a lot of money then it would seem to me that the bureau would work nicely. If you want something a little faster than the bureau, you can try WF5E. The outgoing QSLs go quickly to the other incoming bureaus and your incoming cards arrive via the bureau. A lot of DXpeditions send out bureau cards for free. You can even request them with OQRS in many cases. In fact if you have a lot of spare time and are close to the club that does the bureau work, that would work out nicely. You get your cards free and many of them need the extra help. 73, Ryan, N2RJ (also a bureau volunteer) On Sun, May 20, 2012 at 12:15 PM, JIM Abercrombie 4...@prtcnet.com wrote: What about us who have limited incomes? I was preparing for retirement, but unfortunately I became disabled before I was vested in the retirement system. How are we supposed to buy our QSL's? I have a fairly good station and I have been able to work all the recent DXpeditions. I was at #66 in Zone 5 from Yemen. I got my station by being very frugal with my money. If I were able I would be glad to donate and I have donated small sums. There are those who are less fortunate than me. How are they going to buy their cards? It seems to me they think everyone is fortunate financially as the guys who go on DXpeditions. I belong to the ARRL and LOTW. It reminds me of the ham I know who told me the other day that everyone could be able to invest money so they can retire, when I know there are thousands who have more month left after the money is gone. I guess if you can't afford this hobby, you should go buy yourself a kite and a ball of string. --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org --- -- Ryan A. Jairam --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org ---
Re: [DX-CHAT] DX-PEDITIONS FOR US POOR FOLKS?
Actually, WF5E is more efficient than that. I used them for many years in my earlier QSLs days. You send Les your cards and $$ (or have an account with $$ on file with Les). He packages your cards with others for DX stations and managers and send them direct. with an SASE for return to Les. He then send your cards to your local bureau or if you pay, he send them direct to you. If there not enough cards for an economical send to the DX after a while, he send them to the DX's bureau. An excellent service for the price. 73, Gerry VE6LB/VA6XDX DXCC, VUCC, WAS Card Checker-Southern Alberta VE/VA6 QSL Bureau Team (403) 251-0384 ve...@telus.net http://www.qsl.net/ve6lb/ -Original Message- From: Ryan Jairam Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 10:31 AM To: dx-chat@njdxa.org Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] DX-PEDITIONS FOR US POOR FOLKS? If you don't have a lot of money then it would seem to me that the bureau would work nicely. If you want something a little faster than the bureau, you can try WF5E. The outgoing QSLs go quickly to the other incoming bureaus and your incoming cards arrive via the bureau. A lot of DXpeditions send out bureau cards for free. You can even request them with OQRS in many cases. In fact if you have a lot of spare time and are close to the club that does the bureau work, that would work out nicely. You get your cards free and many of them need the extra help. 73, Ryan, N2RJ (also a bureau volunteer) On Sun, May 20, 2012 at 12:15 PM, JIM Abercrombie 4...@prtcnet.com wrote: What about us who have limited incomes? I was preparing for retirement, but unfortunately I became disabled before I was vested in the retirement system. How are we supposed to buy our QSL's? I have a fairly good station and I have been able to work all the recent DXpeditions. I was at #66 in Zone 5 from Yemen. I got my station by being very frugal with my money. If I were able I would be glad to donate and I have donated small sums. There are those who are less fortunate than me. How are they going to buy their cards? It seems to me they think everyone is fortunate financially as the guys who go on DXpeditions. I belong to the ARRL and LOTW. It reminds me of the ham I know who told me the other day that everyone could be able to invest money so they can retire, when I know there are thousands who have more month left after the money is gone. I guess if you can't afford this hobby, you should go buy yourself a kite and a ball of string. --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org --- -- Ryan A. Jairam --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org --- --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org ---
Re: [DX-CHAT] DX-PEDITIONS FOR US POOR FOLKS?
Have you tried WF5E lately? He came highly recommended. My % of returned cards has been dismal and I'm being kind. I sent him a LOT of cards too. Steve, N4JQQ Elsie Gerry wrote: Actually, WF5E is more efficient than that. I used them for many years in my earlier QSLs days. You send Les your cards and $$ (or have an account with $$ on file with Les). He packages your cards with others for DX stations and managers and send them direct. with an SASE for return to Les. He then send your cards to your local bureau or if you pay, he send them direct to you. If there not enough cards for an economical send to the DX after a while, he send them to the DX's bureau. An excellent service for the price. 73, Gerry VE6LB/VA6XDX DXCC, VUCC, WAS Card Checker-Southern Alberta VE/VA6 QSL Bureau Team (403) 251-0384 ve...@telus.net http://www.qsl.net/ve6lb/ -Original Message- From: Ryan Jairam Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 10:31 AM To: dx-chat@njdxa.org Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] DX-PEDITIONS FOR US POOR FOLKS? If you don't have a lot of money then it would seem to me that the bureau would work nicely. If you want something a little faster than the bureau, you can try WF5E. The outgoing QSLs go quickly to the other incoming bureaus and your incoming cards arrive via the bureau. A lot of DXpeditions send out bureau cards for free. You can even request them with OQRS in many cases. In fact if you have a lot of spare time and are close to the club that does the bureau work, that would work out nicely. You get your cards free and many of them need the extra help. 73, Ryan, N2RJ (also a bureau volunteer) On Sun, May 20, 2012 at 12:15 PM, JIM Abercrombie 4...@prtcnet.com wrote: What about us who have limited incomes? I was preparing for retirement, but unfortunately I became disabled before I was vested in the retirement system. How are we supposed to buy our QSL's? I have a fairly good station and I have been able to work all the recent DXpeditions. I was at #66 in Zone 5 from Yemen. I got my station by being very frugal with my money. If I were able I would be glad to donate and I have donated small sums. There are those who are less fortunate than me. How are they going to buy their cards? It seems to me they think everyone is fortunate financially as the guys who go on DXpeditions. I belong to the ARRL and LOTW. It reminds me of the ham I know who told me the other day that everyone could be able to invest money so they can retire, when I know there are thousands who have more month left after the money is gone. I guess if you can't afford this hobby, you should go buy yourself a kite and a ball of string. --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org --- --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org ---
RE: [DX-CHAT] DX-PEDITIONS FOR US POOR FOLKS?
I would not recommend the WF5E service. I tried the service several times in the past and had really, really poor returns. Doug Logic, reason and science don't define everything in this world. -Original Message- Actually, WF5E is more efficient than that. I used them for many years in my earlier QSLs days. You send Les your cards and $$ (or have an account with $$ on file with Les). He packages your cards with others for DX stations and managers and send them direct. with an SASE for return to Les. He then send your cards to your local bureau or if you pay, he send them direct to you. If there not enough cards for an economical send to the DX after a while, he send them to the DX's bureau. An excellent service for the price. 73, Gerry VE6LB/VA6XDX DXCC, VUCC, WAS Card Checker-Southern Alberta VE/VA6 QSL Bureau Team (403) 251-0384 ve...@telus.net http://www.qsl.net/ve6lb/ -Original Message- From: Ryan Jairam Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 10:31 AM To: dx-chat@njdxa.org Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] DX-PEDITIONS FOR US POOR FOLKS? If you don't have a lot of money then it would seem to me that the bureau would work nicely. If you want something a little faster than the bureau, you can try WF5E. The outgoing QSLs go quickly to the other incoming bureaus and your incoming cards arrive via the bureau. A lot of DXpeditions send out bureau cards for free. You can even request them with OQRS in many cases. In fact if you have a lot of spare time and are close to the club that does the bureau work, that would work out nicely. You get your cards free and many of them need the extra help. 73, Ryan, N2RJ (also a bureau volunteer) --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org ---
Re: [DX-CHAT] DX-PEDITIONS FOR US POOR FOLKS?
I found that sending Les cards for regular Qs was a waste as they ended up going through the bureau both ways. I had great luck with using Les for semi rare and DXpedition cards where there where high volumes going both ways. My return rate was very high. It's been a couple year since I last used Les but I've only got 3 countries left and coming up on 2500 Challenge so don't send many cards and mostly go direct or OQRS. Gerry VE6LB -Original Message- From: Crownhaven Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 12:04 PM To: telw...@telusplanet.net Cc: rjai...@gmail.com ; dx-chat@njdxa.org Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] DX-PEDITIONS FOR US POOR FOLKS? Have you tried WF5E lately? He came highly recommended. My % of returned cards has been dismal and I'm being kind. I sent him a LOT of cards too. Steve, N4JQQ Elsie Gerry wrote: Actually, WF5E is more efficient than that. I used them for many years in my earlier QSLs days. You send Les your cards and $$ (or have an account with $$ on file with Les). He packages your cards with others for DX stations and managers and send them direct. with an SASE for return to Les. He then send your cards to your local bureau or if you pay, he send them direct to you. If there not enough cards for an economical send to the DX after a while, he send them to the DX's bureau. An excellent service for the price. 73, Gerry VE6LB/VA6XDX DXCC, VUCC, WAS Card Checker-Southern Alberta VE/VA6 QSL Bureau Team (403) 251-0384 ve...@telus.net http://www.qsl.net/ve6lb/ -Original Message- From: Ryan Jairam Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 10:31 AM To: dx-chat@njdxa.org Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] DX-PEDITIONS FOR US POOR FOLKS? If you don't have a lot of money then it would seem to me that the bureau would work nicely. If you want something a little faster than the bureau, you can try WF5E. The outgoing QSLs go quickly to the other incoming bureaus and your incoming cards arrive via the bureau. A lot of DXpeditions send out bureau cards for free. You can even request them with OQRS in many cases. In fact if you have a lot of spare time and are close to the club that does the bureau work, that would work out nicely. You get your cards free and many of them need the extra help. 73, Ryan, N2RJ (also a bureau volunteer) On Sun, May 20, 2012 at 12:15 PM, JIM Abercrombie 4...@prtcnet.com wrote: What about us who have limited incomes? I was preparing for retirement, but unfortunately I became disabled before I was vested in the retirement system. How are we supposed to buy our QSL's? I have a fairly good station and I have been able to work all the recent DXpeditions. I was at #66 in Zone 5 from Yemen. I got my station by being very frugal with my money. If I were able I would be glad to donate and I have donated small sums. There are those who are less fortunate than me. How are they going to buy their cards? It seems to me they think everyone is fortunate financially as the guys who go on DXpeditions. I belong to the ARRL and LOTW. It reminds me of the ham I know who told me the other day that everyone could be able to invest money so they can retire, when I know there are thousands who have more month left after the money is gone. I guess if you can't afford this hobby, you should go buy yourself a kite and a ball of string. --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org --- --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org ---
Re: [DX-CHAT] DX-PEDITIONS FOR US POOR FOLKS?
I've never personally tried WF5E. I just read about him. I don't have an opinion on how reliable he is other than what people have been saying. And yes, you can wait a few years and they upload to LoTW. Between the time I was (and still am) busy with the kids my QSLing of DXpeditions dropped off substantially. I have a backlog of about 35 entities I need to QSL. THis week they'll be going out in the mail with the hope of getting QSLs back for most if not all of them. But also during that time some of them uploaded to LoTW. I've been grateful for that. So you'll get LoTW if you are on a tight budget, but instant gratification costs money. I don't begrudge a DXpedition for asking for a few $ or € to cover their costs. It's your choice to work them. It may not fit someone's definition of ham spirit but I also understand that without the donations, many rare entities wouldn't be activated. It's just how it is. Some hams spend more than just money - they risk life and limb, just so you can get a QSO in the log. Ryan, N2RJ On Sun, May 20, 2012 at 2:02 PM, Crownhaven crownha...@bellsouth.net wrote: The bureau still works great. Instant gratification is hard to fight though. Most of the DXpeditions eventually upload to LOTW so that works. I wouldn't recommend WF5E to anyone. Steve, N4JQQ Ryan Jairam wrote: If you don't have a lot of money then it would seem to me that the bureau would work nicely. If you want something a little faster than the bureau, you can try WF5E. The outgoing QSLs go quickly to the other incoming bureaus and your incoming cards arrive via the bureau. A lot of DXpeditions send out bureau cards for free. You can even request them with OQRS in many cases. In fact if you have a lot of spare time and are close to the club that does the bureau work, that would work out nicely. You get your cards free and many of them need the extra help. 73, Ryan, N2RJ (also a bureau volunteer) On Sun, May 20, 2012 at 12:15 PM, JIM Abercrombie 4...@prtcnet.com wrote: What about us who have limited incomes? I was preparing for retirement, but unfortunately I became disabled before I was vested in the retirement system. How are we supposed to buy our QSL's? I have a fairly good station and I have been able to work all the recent DXpeditions. I was at #66 in Zone 5 from Yemen. I got my station by being very frugal with my money. If I were able I would be glad to donate and I have donated small sums. There are those who are less fortunate than me. How are they going to buy their cards? It seems to me they think everyone is fortunate financially as the guys who go on DXpeditions. I belong to the ARRL and LOTW. It reminds me of the ham I know who told me the other day that everyone could be able to invest money so they can retire, when I know there are thousands who have more month left after the money is gone. I guess if you can't afford this hobby, you should go buy yourself a kite and a ball of string. --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org --- --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org --- -- Ryan A. Jairam --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org ---
Re: [DX-CHAT] DX-PEDITIONS FOR US POOR FOLKS?
I used WF5E in the past, when I was actively chasing DX. My return rate was pretty good, though some cards took a few years. Be aware that there are QSL managers and DX stations that will not respond to QSLs sent through Les. He has a list of them on his web page. Barry W2UP On 5/20/2012 12:25 PM, Doug Renwick wrote: I would not recommend the WF5E service. I tried the service several times in the past and had really, really poor returns. Doug Logic, reason and science don't define everything in this world. -Original Message- Actually, WF5E is more efficient than that. I used them for many years in my earlier QSLs days. You send Les your cards and $$ (or have an account with $$ on file with Les). He packages your cards with others for DX stations and managers and send them direct. with an SASE for return to Les. He then send your cards to your local bureau or if you pay, he send them direct to you. If there not enough cards for an economical send to the DX after a while, he send them to the DX's bureau. An excellent service for the price. 73, Gerry VE6LB/VA6XDX DXCC, VUCC, WAS Card Checker-Southern Alberta VE/VA6 QSL Bureau Team (403) 251-0384 ve...@telus.net http://www.qsl.net/ve6lb/ -Original Message- From: Ryan Jairam Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 10:31 AM To: dx-chat@njdxa.org Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] DX-PEDITIONS FOR US POOR FOLKS? If you don't have a lot of money then it would seem to me that the bureau would work nicely. If you want something a little faster than the bureau, you can try WF5E. The outgoing QSLs go quickly to the other incoming bureaus and your incoming cards arrive via the bureau. A lot of DXpeditions send out bureau cards for free. You can even request them with OQRS in many cases. In fact if you have a lot of spare time and are close to the club that does the bureau work, that would work out nicely. You get your cards free and many of them need the extra help. 73, Ryan, N2RJ (also a bureau volunteer) --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org --- --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org ---
RE: [DX-CHAT] DX-PEDITIONS FOR US POOR FOLKS?
Ryan hit the nail on the head, gents. Please download and analyze Don's PowerPoint presentation when it becomes available on the site. There are two facts that become blatantly obvious. One, the cost-per-QSO incurred by the DXpeditions to bring you that rare on is very high. In some cases, the cost they bear to bring you that new one is over $5.00 USD PER CONTACT. In other less-difficult-to-get-to places it's in the $3 range. So those who toss $2 or an IRC into the envelope and nothing more are putting more of the burden on your fellow hams. This is not sustainable as prices to put these operations on increase. I can see it if you work a guy once or twice, request a bureau card or wait out the LoTW hit or toss a couple of bucks into an envelope. It's not right if you picked up 20 greenies on Clublog. Sorry. They're not telling you that you have to *pay* $5 or $3 per Q, but that's what THEY HAVE SPENT to bring you the chance. The second issue is that certain parts of the world are more readily willing to lend financial support through QSL-request donations than other parts of the world. I didn't take notes during Don's presentation but I'm pretty sure the European donation percentage was infinitesimally small as compared to the NA donation base (again, as averaged over 20-odd years by major DXpeditions). Less-than-1% if memory serves--Don, if I'm wrong, please feel free to beat me about the head with a large abacus. Regardless of the exact percentages, it's irresponsible and outright selfish to sit there and work these big-league ops and not toss something into the hat not as a way to say thank you (which is a great gesture in and of itself) but as a way to ensure they'll be able to commit to going to that one place you need that'll put you over the top and into the Honor Roll or to HR#1, maybe. If you're so poor that you can't afford $10 or $20 a couple of times a year, when you've bagged a biggie across a bunch of bands and modes, then there's something wrong and I definitely think you should reconsider your choice of hobby, or your desire to be a DXer. Yeah, there are DXpeditions that I work once or twice and I'll send an SASE or an IRC or even request a bureau card for. These are nominally the ones I worked just 'cuz they were there and I thought gee, it's been a couple of years since I worked entity on band. But if it's something I spend 2 weeks chasing up and down the spectrum, damned straight I'll toss at least $10-25 into the hat, maybe more if money's not as big an issue as it is now. - pjd -Original Message- From: kf...@njdxa.org [mailto:kf...@njdxa.org] On Behalf Of Ryan Jairam I don't begrudge a DXpedition for asking for a few $ or € to cover their costs. It's your choice to work them. It may not fit someone's definition of ham spirit but I also understand that without the donations, many rare entities wouldn't be activated. It's just how it is. Some hams spend more than just money - they risk life and limb, just so you can get a QSO in the log. Ryan, N2RJ --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org ---
Re: [DX-CHAT] DX-PEDITIONS FOR US POOR FOLKS?
And there are others that process Les's requests as a priority (at the bureau priority level). Gerry VE6LB -Original Message- From: Barry Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 12:44 PM To: Dx-Chat Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] DX-PEDITIONS FOR US POOR FOLKS? I used WF5E in the past, when I was actively chasing DX. My return rate was pretty good, though some cards took a few years. Be aware that there are QSL managers and DX stations that will not respond to QSLs sent through Les. He has a list of them on his web page. Barry W2UP On 5/20/2012 12:25 PM, Doug Renwick wrote: I would not recommend the WF5E service. I tried the service several times in the past and had really, really poor returns. Doug Logic, reason and science don't define everything in this world. -Original Message- Actually, WF5E is more efficient than that. I used them for many years in my earlier QSLs days. You send Les your cards and $$ (or have an account with $$ on file with Les). He packages your cards with others for DX stations and managers and send them direct. with an SASE for return to Les. He then send your cards to your local bureau or if you pay, he send them direct to you. If there not enough cards for an economical send to the DX after a while, he send them to the DX's bureau. An excellent service for the price. 73, Gerry VE6LB/VA6XDX DXCC, VUCC, WAS Card Checker-Southern Alberta VE/VA6 QSL Bureau Team (403) 251-0384 ve...@telus.net http://www.qsl.net/ve6lb/ -Original Message- From: Ryan Jairam Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 10:31 AM To: dx-chat@njdxa.org Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] DX-PEDITIONS FOR US POOR FOLKS? If you don't have a lot of money then it would seem to me that the bureau would work nicely. If you want something a little faster than the bureau, you can try WF5E. The outgoing QSLs go quickly to the other incoming bureaus and your incoming cards arrive via the bureau. A lot of DXpeditions send out bureau cards for free. You can even request them with OQRS in many cases. In fact if you have a lot of spare time and are close to the club that does the bureau work, that would work out nicely. You get your cards free and many of them need the extra help. 73, Ryan, N2RJ (also a bureau volunteer) --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org --- --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org --- --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org ---
Re: [DX-CHAT] DX-PEDITIONS FOR US POOR FOLKS?
-pjd is making a valid point, but. On the other side of the coin, how can you put a price on the thrill of being on the receiving end of a huge pileup for a week or two???. If it cost me $5,000 to go to a Dx Expedition, I would not compute my cost per contact. If I would have to, I should not be going.. Just my 2cents worth Lou KE1F On 5/20/2012 3:47 PM, Peter W2IRT wrote: Ryan hit the nail on the head, gents. Please download and analyze Don's PowerPoint presentation when it becomes available on the site. There are two facts that become blatantly obvious. One, the cost-per-QSO incurred by the DXpeditions to bring you that rare on is very high. In some cases, the cost they bear to bring you that new one is over $5.00 USD PER CONTACT. In other less-difficult-to-get-to places it's in the $3 range. So those who toss $2 or an IRC into the envelope and nothing more are putting more of the burden on your fellow hams. This is not sustainable as prices to put these operations on increase. I can see it if you work a guy once or twice, request a bureau card or wait out the LoTW hit or toss a couple of bucks into an envelope. It's not right if you picked up 20 greenies on Clublog. Sorry. They're not telling you that you have to *pay* $5 or $3 per Q, but that's what THEY HAVE SPENT to bring you the chance. The second issue is that certain parts of the world are more readily willing to lend financial support through QSL-request donations than other parts of the world. I didn't take notes during Don's presentation but I'm pretty sure the European donation percentage was infinitesimally small as compared to the NA donation base (again, as averaged over 20-odd years by major DXpeditions). Less-than-1% if memory serves--Don, if I'm wrong, please feel free to beat me about the head with a large abacus. Regardless of the exact percentages, it's irresponsible and outright selfish to sit there and work these big-league ops and not toss something into the hat not as a way to say thank you (which is a great gesture in and of itself) but as a way to ensure they'll be able to commit to going to that one place you need that'll put you over the top and into the Honor Roll or to HR#1, maybe. If you're so poor that you can't afford $10 or $20 a couple of times a year, when you've bagged a biggie across a bunch of bands and modes, then there's something wrong and I definitely think you should reconsider your choice of hobby, or your desire to be a DXer. Yeah, there are DXpeditions that I work once or twice and I'll send an SASE or an IRC or even request a bureau card for. These are nominally the ones I worked just 'cuz they were there and I thought gee, it's been a couple of years since I workedentity onband. But if it's something I spend 2 weeks chasing up and down the spectrum, damned straight I'll toss at least $10-25 into the hat, maybe more if money's not as big an issue as it is now. - pjd -Original Message- From: kf...@njdxa.org [mailto:kf...@njdxa.org] On Behalf Of Ryan Jairam I don't begrudge a DXpedition for asking for a few $ or € to cover their costs. It's your choice to work them. It may not fit someone's definition of ham spirit but I also understand that without the donations, many rare entities wouldn't be activated. It's just how it is. Some hams spend more than just money - they risk life and limb, just so you can get a QSO in the log. Ryan, N2RJ --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org --- --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org ---
Re: [DX-CHAT] DX-PEDITIONS FOR US POOR FOLKS?
Go or don't go. But demanding a fee for a qsl is still extortion in the true sense of the term Sent from my iPod On May 20, 2012, at 6:31 PM, Ron Notarius W3WN wn3...@verizon.net wrote: Lou, Once again, context is important. Don's presentation was not talking about the casual DXpedition that might cost one or two people a few thousand. Yes, this was mentioned, but it was not the main focus. And within THAT context only, if I can't afford to go on a vacation to the Caribbean that happens to include a radio op for $5K, I'm not going to go either. If I do go, I'm not going to expect to recoup my vacation costs from those who worked me, either. But -- that's not what the main focus here is. You're not going to Heard Island, or Bouvet, or Navassa, or Baker Howland, etc., for $5000 either. Between logistics, licensing, boat chargers, food fuel, you're talking in the neighborhood (today) of US$500,000. Don's plea, as I recall (and Don, please correct me if I'm wrong) was that the DX community as a whole, world-wide, find a way to continue to fund these trips. Or they will stop, and the rarest of the rare will be off the air for decades to come. The cost-per-QSO breakdown simply gives you, or should give you, an appreciation for what was involved. It was not meant (at least as I heard it) as a suggestion that this should be a mandatory minimum amount that you should include along with your QSL request. Don also had a comment that more should join their local DX associations, societies, foundations, etc., in order to strengthen those organizations, and permit THEM to continue to help fund future super-rare operations. Let's not let that get lost in the discussion either. The bottom line is that we as a community simply can't expect others to go to these places that we seek to contact purely for the thrill of a pileup. Because when the costs to go far outstrip the means of the operating team, they won't be able to go whether they want the thrill or not. 73 -Original Message- From: kf...@njdxa.org [mailto:kf...@njdxa.org] On Behalf Of Mecseri Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 4:11 PM To: li...@w2irt.net Cc: dx-chat@njdxa.org Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] DX-PEDITIONS FOR US POOR FOLKS? -pjd is making a valid point, but. On the other side of the coin, how can you put a price on the thrill of being on the receiving end of a huge pileup for a week or two???. If it cost me $5,000 to go to a Dx Expedition, I would not compute my cost per contact. If I would have to, I should not be going.. Just my 2cents worth Lou KE1F On 5/20/2012 3:47 PM, Peter W2IRT wrote: Ryan hit the nail on the head, gents. Please download and analyze Don's PowerPoint presentation when it becomes available on the site. There are two facts that become blatantly obvious. One, the cost-per-QSO incurred by the DXpeditions to bring you that rare on is very high. In some cases, the cost they bear to bring you that new one is over $5.00 USD PER CONTACT. In other less-difficult-to-get-to places it's in the $3 range. So those who toss $2 or an IRC into the envelope and nothing more are putting more of the burden on your fellow hams. This is not sustainable as prices to put these operations on increase. I can see it if you work a guy once or twice, request a bureau card or wait out the LoTW hit or toss a couple of bucks into an envelope. It's not right if you picked up 20 greenies on Clublog. Sorry. They're not telling you that you have to *pay* $5 or $3 per Q, but that's what THEY HAVE SPENT to bring you the chance. The second issue is that certain parts of the world are more readily willing to lend financial support through QSL-request donations than other parts of the world. I didn't take notes during Don's presentation but I'm pretty sure the European donation percentage was infinitesimally small as compared to the NA donation base (again, as averaged over 20-odd years by major DXpeditions). Less-than-1% if memory serves--Don, if I'm wrong, please feel free to beat me about the head with a large abacus. Regardless of the exact percentages, it's irresponsible and outright selfish to sit there and work these big-league ops and not toss something into the hat not as a way to say thank you (which is a great gesture in and of itself) but as a way to ensure they'll be able to commit to going to that one place you need that'll put you over the top and into the Honor Roll or to HR#1, maybe. If you're so poor that you can't afford $10 or $20 a couple of times a year, when you've bagged a biggie across a bunch of bands and modes, then there's something wrong and I definitely think you should reconsider your choice of hobby, or your desire to be a DXer. Yeah, there are DXpeditions that I work once or twice and I'll send an SASE or an IRC or even request
Re: [DX-CHAT] DX-PEDITIONS FOR US POOR FOLKS?
Who is demanding any fees for a QSL? Name one DXpedition that refuses to answer bureau cards? Or a major DXPedition that doesn't post their logs to LOTW (most within 6 months). Most foundations require that in return for funding. Just because someone who donates $5 gets his card first does not translate into extortion for those who opt out of supporting dxpeditions and wait for the slow method. 73 Don N1DG At 06:45 PM 5/20/2012, Don wrote: Go or don't go. But demanding a fee for a qsl is still extortion in the true sense of the term Sent from my iPod On May 20, 2012, at 6:31 PM, Ron Notarius W3WN wn3...@verizon.net wrote: Lou, Once again, context is important. Don's presentation was not talking about the casual DXpedition that might cost one or two people a few thousand. Yes, this was mentioned, but it was not the main focus. And within THAT context only, if I can't afford to go on a vacation to the Caribbean that happens to include a radio op for $5K, I'm not going to go either. If I do go, I'm not going to expect to recoup my vacation costs from those who worked me, either. But -- that's not what the main focus here is. You're not going to Heard Island, or Bouvet, or Navassa, or Baker Howland, etc., for $5000 either. Between logistics, licensing, boat chargers, food fuel, you're talking in the neighborhood (today) of US$500,000. Don's plea, as I recall (and Don, please correct me if I'm wrong) was that the DX community as a whole, world-wide, find a way to continue to fund these trips. Or they will stop, and the rarest of the rare will be off the air for decades to come. The cost-per-QSO breakdown simply gives you, or should give you, an appreciation for what was involved. It was not meant (at least as I heard it) as a suggestion that this should be a mandatory minimum amount that you should include along with your QSL request. Don also had a comment that more should join their local DX associations, societies, foundations, etc., in order to strengthen those organizations, and permit THEM to continue to help fund future super-rare operations. Let's not let that get lost in the discussion either. The bottom line is that we as a community simply can't expect others to go to these places that we seek to contact purely for the thrill of a pileup. Because when the costs to go far outstrip the means of the operating team, they won't be able to go whether they want the thrill or not. 73 -Original Message- From: kf...@njdxa.org [mailto:kf...@njdxa.org] On Behalf Of Mecseri Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 4:11 PM To: li...@w2irt.net Cc: dx-chat@njdxa.org Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] DX-PEDITIONS FOR US POOR FOLKS? -pjd is making a valid point, but. On the other side of the coin, how can you put a price on the thrill of being on the receiving end of a huge pileup for a week or two???. If it cost me $5,000 to go to a Dx Expedition, I would not compute my cost per contact. If I would have to, I should not be going.. Just my 2cents worth Lou KE1F On 5/20/2012 3:47 PM, Peter W2IRT wrote: Ryan hit the nail on the head, gents. Please download and analyze Don's PowerPoint presentation when it becomes available on the site. There are two facts that become blatantly obvious. One, the cost-per-QSO incurred by the DXpeditions to bring you that rare on is very high. In some cases, the cost they bear to bring you that new one is over $5.00 USD PER CONTACT. In other less-difficult-to-get-to places it's in the $3 range. So those who toss $2 or an IRC into the envelope and nothing more are putting more of the burden on your fellow hams. This is not sustainable as prices to put these operations on increase. I can see it if you work a guy once or twice, request a bureau card or wait out the LoTW hit or toss a couple of bucks into an envelope. It's not right if you picked up 20 greenies on Clublog. Sorry. They're not telling you that you have to *pay* $5 or $3 per Q, but that's what THEY HAVE SPENT to bring you the chance. The second issue is that certain parts of the world are more readily willing to lend financial support through QSL-request donations than other parts of the world. I didn't take notes during Don's presentation but I'm pretty sure the European donation percentage was infinitesimally small as compared to the NA donation base (again, as averaged over 20-odd years by major DXpeditions). Less-than-1% if memory serves--Don, if I'm wrong, please feel free to beat me about the head with a large abacus. Regardless of the exact percentages, it's irresponsible and outright selfish to sit there and work these big-league ops and not toss something into the hat not as a way to say thank you (which is a great gesture in and of itself) but as a way to ensure they'll be able to commit to going to that one place you need
Re: [DX-CHAT] DX-PEDITIONS FOR US POOR FOLKS?
First off, great presentation Don! I thought it gave a great perspective of what these icebreaker DXpeditions and others to exotic places cost. Someone has to pay for them. The operators on some DXpeditions often bear a great deal of the cost themselves. I know a few people who have gotten involved in a DXpedition without knowing what it would cost them personally. They put forth an amount of money that hurt them personally financially, hoping they could get at least some of it back. Some didn't - they have not been on a DXpedition since. Live and learn, I guess. And our loss when a fine operator can't or won't go on another DXpedition. I know some of the people who were on the VP8ORK DXpedition. Some of the fees they had to pay were downright weird - and sounded exorbitant to me. But what are you going to do? Refuse to pay a fee to get your equipment out of storage? You would be in a bad position thousands of miles from home, trying to meet an expedition timetable and unable to speak the language of the country, trying to negotiate with those people. If you want the DXpedition, if you want it there for you to work, it seems only right to me that you voluntarily contribute what you can. Not that it has to be $5 per QSO, but every little bit helps. None of the DXpeditions I wished to have confirmed recently have demanded any fees for QSL'ing. But I do voluntarily send them something. I hope it helps just a little. If enough people do that, it increases the chance that they will go on another DXpedition to a rare place in a few years. And I agree - if the DXpedition so chooses to send out confirmation to contributors first, that is their choice and it doesn't mean that non-contributors are not going to get their confirmation. If you had to wait for 20 years for an entity to be put on the air, what's a couple extra months waiting for the confirmation? 73, Zack W9SZ On 5/20/12, Don Greenbaum d...@aurumtel.com wrote: Who is demanding any fees for a QSL? Name one DXpedition that refuses to answer bureau cards? Or a major DXPedition that doesn't post their logs to LOTW (most within 6 months). Most foundations require that in return for funding. Just because someone who donates $5 gets his card first does not translate into extortion for those who opt out of supporting dxpeditions and wait for the slow method. 73 Don N1DG At 06:45 PM 5/20/2012, Don wrote: Go or don't go. But demanding a fee for a qsl is still extortion in the true sense of the term Sent from my iPod On May 20, 2012, at 6:31 PM, Ron Notarius W3WN wn3...@verizon.net wrote: Lou, Once again, context is important. Don's presentation was not talking about the casual DXpedition that might cost one or two people a few thousand. Yes, this was mentioned, but it was not the main focus. And within THAT context only, if I can't afford to go on a vacation to the Caribbean that happens to include a radio op for $5K, I'm not going to go either. If I do go, I'm not going to expect to recoup my vacation costs from those who worked me, either. But -- that's not what the main focus here is. You're not going to Heard Island, or Bouvet, or Navassa, or Baker Howland, etc., for $5000 either. Between logistics, licensing, boat chargers, food fuel, you're talking in the neighborhood (today) of US$500,000. Don's plea, as I recall (and Don, please correct me if I'm wrong) was that the DX community as a whole, world-wide, find a way to continue to fund these trips. Or they will stop, and the rarest of the rare will be off the air for decades to come. The cost-per-QSO breakdown simply gives you, or should give you, an appreciation for what was involved. It was not meant (at least as I heard it) as a suggestion that this should be a mandatory minimum amount that you should include along with your QSL request. Don also had a comment that more should join their local DX associations, societies, foundations, etc., in order to strengthen those organizations, and permit THEM to continue to help fund future super-rare operations. Let's not let that get lost in the discussion either. The bottom line is that we as a community simply can't expect others to go to these places that we seek to contact purely for the thrill of a pileup. Because when the costs to go far outstrip the means of the operating team, they won't be able to go whether they want the thrill or not. 73 -Original Message- From: kf...@njdxa.org [mailto:kf...@njdxa.org] On Behalf Of Mecseri Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 4:11 PM To: li...@w2irt.net Cc: dx-chat@njdxa.org Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] DX-PEDITIONS FOR US POOR FOLKS? -pjd is making a valid point, but. On the other side of the coin, how can you put a price on the thrill of being on the receiving end of a huge pileup for a week or two???. If it cost me $5,000 to go to a Dx Expedition, I would not compute my cost per contact. If I would have to, I
RE: [DX-CHAT] DX-PEDITIONS FOR US POOR FOLKS?
There is another point of view to consider. I have been on a number of group and single DXpeditions. It has cost me thousands of dollars to participate. I feel that I have already contributed enough money to support the DX community by operating as DX. Anything that I may contribute above what I have already invested is my choice. I do not owe anyone, anything. Maybe it should be mandatory for anyone to reach the top of the honour role, they must have operated as significant DX. Doug Logic, reason and science don't define everything in this world. -Original Message- Ryan hit the nail on the head, gents. Please download and analyze Don's PowerPoint presentation when it becomes available on the site. There are two facts that become blatantly obvious. One, the cost-per-QSO incurred by the DXpeditions to bring you that rare on is very high. In some cases, the cost they bear to bring you that new one is over $5.00 USD PER CONTACT. In other less-difficult-to-get-to places it's in the $3 range. So those who toss $2 or an IRC into the envelope and nothing more are putting more of the burden on your fellow hams. This is not sustainable as prices to put these operations on increase. I can see it if you work a guy once or twice, request a bureau card or wait out the LoTW hit or toss a couple of bucks into an envelope. It's not right if you picked up 20 greenies on Clublog. Sorry. They're not telling you that you have to *pay* $5 or $3 per Q, but that's what THEY HAVE SPENT to bring you the chance. The second issue is that certain parts of the world are more readily willing to lend financial support through QSL-request donations than other parts of the world. I didn't take notes during Don's presentation but I'm pretty sure the European donation percentage was infinitesimally small as compared to the NA donation base (again, as averaged over 20-odd years by major DXpeditions). Less-than-1% if memory serves--Don, if I'm wrong, please feel free to beat me about the head with a large abacus. Regardless of the exact percentages, it's irresponsible and outright selfish to sit there and work these big-league ops and not toss something into the hat not as a way to say thank you (which is a great gesture in and of itself) but as a way to ensure they'll be able to commit to going to that one place you need that'll put you over the top and into the Honor Roll or to HR#1, maybe. If you're so poor that you can't afford $10 or $20 a couple of times a year, when you've bagged a biggie across a bunch of bands and modes, then there's something wrong and I definitely think you should reconsider your choice of hobby, or your desire to be a DXer. Yeah, there are DXpeditions that I work once or twice and I'll send an SASE or an IRC or even request a bureau card for. These are nominally the ones I worked just 'cuz they were there and I thought gee, it's been a couple of years since I worked entity on band. But if it's something I spend 2 weeks chasing up and down the spectrum, damned straight I'll toss at least $10-25 into the hat, maybe more if money's not as big an issue as it is now. - pjd -Original Message- From: kf...@njdxa.org [mailto:kf...@njdxa.org] On Behalf Of Ryan Jairam I don't begrudge a DXpedition for asking for a few $ or € to cover their costs. It's your choice to work them. It may not fit someone's definition of ham spirit but I also understand that without the donations, many rare entities wouldn't be activated. It's just how it is. Some hams spend more than just money - they risk life and limb, just so you can get a QSO in the log. Ryan, N2RJ --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org --- --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org ---
Re: [DX-CHAT] DX-PEDITIONS FOR US POOR FOLKS?
20, 2012 4:11 PM To: li...@w2irt.net Cc: dx-chat@njdxa.org Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] DX-PEDITIONS FOR US POOR FOLKS? -pjd is making a valid point, but. On the other side of the coin, how can you put a price on the thrill of being on the receiving end of a huge pileup for a week or two???. If it cost me $5,000 to go to a Dx Expedition, I would not compute my cost per contact. If I would have to, I should not be going.. Just my 2cents worth Lou KE1F On 5/20/2012 3:47 PM, Peter W2IRT wrote: Ryan hit the nail on the head, gents. Please download and analyze Don's PowerPoint presentation when it becomes available on the site. There are two facts that become blatantly obvious. One, the cost-per-QSO incurred by the DXpeditions to bring you that rare on is very high. In some cases, the cost they bear to bring you that new one is over $5.00 USD PER CONTACT. In other less-difficult-to-get-to places it's in the $3 range. So those who toss $2 or an IRC into the envelope and nothing more are putting more of the burden on your fellow hams. This is not sustainable as prices to put these operations on increase. I can see it if you work a guy once or twice, request a bureau card or wait out the LoTW hit or toss a couple of bucks into an envelope. It's not right if you picked up 20 greenies on Clublog. Sorry. They're not telling you that you have to *pay* $5 or $3 per Q, but that's what THEY HAVE SPENT to bring you the chance. The second issue is that certain parts of the world are more readily willing to lend financial support through QSL-request donations than other parts of the world. I didn't take notes during Don's presentation but I'm pretty sure the European donation percentage was infinitesimally small as compared to the NA donation base (again, as averaged over 20-odd years by major DXpeditions). Less-than-1% if memory serves--Don, if I'm wrong, please feel free to beat me about the head with a large abacus. Regardless of the exact percentages, it's irresponsible and outright selfish to sit there and work these big-league ops and not toss something into the hat not as a way to say thank you (which is a great gesture in and of itself) but as a way to ensure they'll be able to commit to going to that one place you need that'll put you over the top and into the Honor Roll or to HR#1, maybe. If you're so poor that you can't afford $10 or $20 a couple of times a year, when you've bagged a biggie across a bunch of bands and modes, then there's something wrong and I definitely think you should reconsider your choice of hobby, or your desire to be a DXer. Yeah, there are DXpeditions that I work once or twice and I'll send an SASE or an IRC or even request a bureau card for. These are nominally the ones I worked just 'cuz they were there and I thought gee, it's been a couple of years since I workedentity onband. But if it's something I spend 2 weeks chasing up and down the spectrum, damned straight I'll toss at least $10-25 into the hat, maybe more if money's not as big an issue as it is now. - pjd -Original Message- From: kf...@njdxa.org [mailto:kf...@njdxa.org] On Behalf Of Ryan Jairam I don't begrudge a DXpedition for asking for a few $ or € to covver their costs. It's your choice to work them. It may not fit someone's definition of ham spirit but I also understand that without the donations, many rare entities wouldn't be activated. It's just how it is. Some hams spend more than just money - they risk life and limb, just so you can get a QSO in the log. Ryan, N2RJ --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org --- --- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org ---
Re: [DX-CHAT] DX-PEDITIONS FOR US POOR FOLKS?
the main focus here is. You're not going to Heard Island, or Bouvet, or Navassa, or Baker Howland, etc., for $5000 either. Between logistics, licensing, boat chargers, food fuel, you're talking in the neighborhood (today) of US$500,000. Don's plea, as I recall (and Don, please correct me if I'm wrong) was that the DX community as a whole, world-wide, find a way to continue to fund these trips. Or they will stop, and the rarest of the rare will be off the air for decades to come. The cost-per-QSO breakdown simply gives you, or should give you, an appreciation for what was involved. It was not meant (at least as I heard it) as a suggestion that this should be a mandatory minimum amount that you should include along with your QSL request. Don also had a comment that more should join their local DX associations, societies, foundations, etc., in order to strengthen those organizations, and permit THEM to continue to help fund future super-rare operations. Let's not let that get lost in the discussion either. The bottom line is that we as a community simply can't expect others to go to these places that we seek to contact purely for the thrill of a pileup. Because when the costs to go far outstrip the means of the operating team, they won't be able to go whether they want the thrill or not. 73 -Original Message- From: kf...@njdxa.org [mailto:kf...@njdxa.org] On Behalf Of Mecseri Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 4:11 PM To: li...@w2irt.net Cc: dx-chat@njdxa.org Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] DX-PEDITIONS FOR US POOR FOLKS? -pjd is making a valid point, but. On the other side of the coin, how can you put a price on the thrill of being on the receiving end of a huge pileup for a week or two???. If it cost me $5,000 to go to a Dx Expedition, I would not compute my cost per contact. If I would have to, I should not be going.. Just my 2cents worth Lou KE1F On 5/20/2012 3:47 PM, Peter W2IRT wrote: Ryan hit the nail on the head, gents. Please download and analyze Don's PowerPoint presentation when it becomes available on the site. There are two facts that become blatantly obvious. One, the cost-per-QSO incurred by the DXpeditions to bring you that rare on is very high. In some cases, the cost they bear to bring you that new one is over $5.00 USD PER CONTACT. In other less-difficult-to-get-to places it's in the $3 range. So those who toss $2 or an IRC into the envelope and nothing more are putting more of the burden on your fellow hams. This is not sustainable as prices to put these operations on increase. I can see it if you work a guy once or twice, request a bureau card or wait out the LoTW hit or toss a couple of bucks into an envelope. It's not right if you picked up 20 greenies on Clublog. Sorry. They're not telling you that you have to *pay* $5 or $3 per Q, but that's what THEY HAVE SPENT to bring you the chance. The second issue is that certain parts of the world are more readily willing to lend financial support through QSL-request donations than other parts of the world. I didn't take notes during Don's presentation but I'm pretty sure the European donation percentage was infinitesimally small as compared to the NA donation base (again, as averaged over 20-odd years by major DXpeditions). Less-than-1% if memory serves--Don, if I'm wrong, please feel free to beat me about the head with a large abacus. Regardless of the exact percentages, it's irresponsible and outright selfish to sit there and work these big-league ops and not toss something into the hat not as a way to say thank you (which is a great gesture in and of itself) but as a way to ensure they'll be able to commit to going to that one place you need that'll put you over the top and into the Honor Roll or to HR#1, maybe. If you're so poor that you can't afford $10 or $20 a couple of times a year, when you've bagged a biggie across a bunch of bands and modes, then there's something wrong and I definitely think you should reconsider your choice of hobby, or your desire to be a DXer. Yeah, there are DXpeditions that I work once or twice and I'll send an SASE or an IRC or even request a bureau card for. These are nominally the ones I worked just 'cuz they were there and I thought gee, it's been a couple of years since I workedentity onband. But if it's something I spend 2 weeks chasing up and down the spectrum, damned straight I'll toss at least $10-25 into the hat, maybe more if money's not as big an issue as it is now. - pjd -Original Message- From: kf...@njdxa.org [mailto:kf...@njdxa.org] On Behalf Of Ryan Jairam I don't begrudge a DXpedition for asking for a few $ or € to covver their costs. It's your choice to work them. It may not fit someone's definition of ham spirit but I also understand that without the donations, many rare entities wouldn't be activated. It's just how it is. Some hams spend more than just money - they risk life and limb, just so you can get a QSO in the log. Ryan, N2RJ
