Re: [DX-CHAT] Directional CQs
I think directional CQ's can be used very wisely but how they are used depends a lot on where the DX is and their knowledge of propagation. I imagine almost any location will have areas where propagation only exists for a short time to those areas and other areas where they have propagation over a much longer time period. For instance, DXpeditions to VU4, VU7, BS7 etc. only have a short time when they can work this part of the USA. They probably can work JA's for half a day on the same band. It would make sense for them to call USA only during that hour or so and work JA's when they don't have limited openings to this and other areas. DXpeditions to the mid-Pacific have propagation to EU on the low bands till the sun rises in EU. They have propagation to the USA during part of this time but they continue to have propagation for another 4-6 hours to the USA. After the sun rises in USA they still have propagation to JA. It would make sense to work only EU till they lose propagation, then USA till they lose propagation, then work JA's for a while. Some past DXpeditions didn't do this. Clipperton Island is in an interesting location. It appears it's in the same region that has Mountain time in the USA. The sun rises there before it does in California. So on the low bands they would want to work both USA and JA's till their sun rises. So maybe non-directionsl CQ's are the best bet under those circumstances. It definitely takes some planning and study of propagation charts to make most DXers happy. 73, Zack W9SZ On Sun, 16 Mar 2008, Peter Dougherty wrote: At 10:52 PM 3/16/2008, Charles Harpole wrote: Many recent DXpeditions have, in my opinion, over-studied the data to serve under served areas, have propagation charts, and be extra aware of their important position as the only (last?) hams to be at that locale. One effect is the extensive use of DIRECTIONAL CQs... usually only EU or only NA. This is one of my biggest gripes in DXing (well, that and by the numbers). Human nature says that whenever you exclude a group of people for whatever good reason you have, the excluded will generally take offense and resentment will start to form, regardless whether this is rational or not. As such, there really is only one solution to this problem, and that's to open it up to everyone, everywhere for as long as possible (though I do think looking for the hardest parts of the world from where the DX is operating on the low bands, at the grey-line, is excellent operating practice). What this means, on the other hand, is the DX station needs to be skilled enough to handle the onslaught of callers from everywhere and have equipment and abilities to work the pileup down efficiently. The other problem with directional calls is CW - It's very difficult on CW to convey a sense of where you want to hear from. It's easy to send USA or NA, but that leaves out Central and South America - would the DX want those too? Or does he really JUST want the US/Canada? Ditto for calling for JA, but leaving out the rest of Asia, VK and ZL, or EU but not Africa, the middle-East or western Asia, etc. It's easier on SSB and RTTY, but still, the longer it takes to say WHO/WHERE you're listening for, the bigger and more unruly the pileup will get. It's easier for the pileup and the operator to send XX1XXX QRZ UP than XX1XXX QRZ EU AFRICA AND MIDDLE EAST ONLY or whatever. Sure, the wall will become louder on and near your QSX, but just work the loudest ones. Eventually you'll either get tired and go for an 807, or you'll run out of 59++ signals and you'll get to dig deeper to the ones who are only 59, then the 57s, then the 55s, etc...at least till you get spotted and get another round of 20-overs calling you again. If you have a rock-solid wall of noise with nothing leaping out at you, expand your QSX range to 5 or 7 kHz on SSB. Maybe even 10 if it's unusually bad. Work the edges, pick off the big guns. Eventually, you'll settle down to a single QSX with luck, pick 'em off with little effort. I sure can't speak for HS-land, but when I was on C6 I found that to be the easiest way to make Q's...take all callers. Though I DID take EU only for a couple of hours one night as I wanted to boost my country count a little. Regards, Peter, W2IRT Subscribe/unsubscribe, feedback, FAQ, problems http://njdxa.org/dx-chat To post a message, DX related items only, dx-chat@njdxa.org This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org
Re: [DX-CHAT] Directional CQs
Great examples of poor directional calling. What the ops usually mean as opposed to USA ONLY is NA ONLY (USA, Canada, Mexico, etc.). Also JA ONLY usually means, JA, JT, HL, UA 9/0, and other Asia. Gerry VE6LB/VA6XDX ARRL DXCC Card Checker VE/VA6 QSL Bureau Team (403) 251-6520 ve6lb (at) telus (dot) net www.qsl.net/ve6lb/ - Original Message - From: Zack Widup To: dx-chat@njdxa.org Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 8:58 AM Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] Directional CQs I think directional CQ's can be used very wisely but how they are used depends a lot on where the DX is and their knowledge of propagation. I imagine almost any location will have areas where propagation only exists for a short time to those areas and other areas where they have propagation over a much longer time period. For instance, DXpeditions to VU4, VU7, BS7 etc. only have a short time when they can work this part of the USA. They probably can work JA's for half a day on the same band. It would make sense for them to call USA only during that hour or so and work JA's when they don't have limited openings to this and other areas. DXpeditions to the mid-Pacific have propagation to EU on the low bands till the sun rises in EU. They have propagation to the USA during part of this time but they continue to have propagation for another 4-6 hours to the USA. After the sun rises in USA they still have propagation to JA. It would make sense to work only EU till they lose propagation, then USA till they lose propagation, then work JA's for a while. Some past DXpeditions didn't do this. Clipperton Island is in an interesting location. It appears it's in the same region that has Mountain time in the USA. The sun rises there before it does in California. So on the low bands they would want to work both USA and JA's till their sun rises. So maybe non-directionsl CQ's are the best bet under those circumstances. It definitely takes some planning and study of propagation charts to make most DXers happy. 73, Zack W9SZ On Sun, 16 Mar 2008, Peter Dougherty wrote: At 10:52 PM 3/16/2008, Charles Harpole wrote: Many recent DXpeditions have, in my opinion, over-studied the data to serve under served areas, have propagation charts, and be extra aware of their important position as the only (last?) hams to be at that locale. One effect is the extensive use of DIRECTIONAL CQs... usually only EU or only NA. This is one of my biggest gripes in DXing (well, that and by the numbers). Human nature says that whenever you exclude a group of people for whatever good reason you have, the excluded will generally take offense and resentment will start to form, regardless whether this is rational or not. As such, there really is only one solution to this problem, and that's to open it up to everyone, everywhere for as long as possible (though I do think looking for the hardest parts of the world from where the DX is operating on the low bands, at the grey-line, is excellent operating practice). What this means, on the other hand, is the DX station needs to be skilled enough to handle the onslaught of callers from everywhere and have equipment and abilities to work the pileup down efficiently. The other problem with directional calls is CW - It's very difficult on CW to convey a sense of where you want to hear from. It's easy to send USA or NA, but that leaves out Central and South America - would the DX want those too? Or does he really JUST want the US/Canada? Ditto for calling for JA, but leaving out the rest of Asia, VK and ZL, or EU but not Africa, the middle-East or western Asia, etc. It's easier on SSB and RTTY, but still, the longer it takes to say WHO/WHERE you're listening for, the bigger and more unruly the pileup will get. It's easier for the pileup and the operator to send XX1XXX QRZ UP than XX1XXX QRZ EU AFRICA AND MIDDLE EAST ONLY or whatever. Sure, the wall will become louder on and near your QSX, but just work the loudest ones. Eventually you'll either get tired and go for an 807, or you'll run out of 59++ signals and you'll get to dig deeper to the ones who are only 59, then the 57s, then the 55s, etc...at least till you get spotted and get another round of 20-overs calling you again. If you have a rock-solid wall of noise with nothing leaping out at you, expand your QSX range to 5 or 7 kHz on SSB. Maybe even 10 if it's unusually bad. Work the edges, pick off the big guns. Eventually, you'll settle down to a single QSX with luck, pick 'em off with little effort. I sure can't speak for HS-land, but when I was on C6 I found that to be the easiest way to make Q's...take all callers. Though I DID take EU only for a couple of hours one night as I wanted to boost my country count a little
RE: [DX-CHAT] Directional CQs
Ron: Well, Chuck wanted to stir us and things up again, and we gladly accomodated him. The last time I checked, about half of the licensed hams are in JA land so Asia should be the main continent to aim directional CQ's at if they are in fact needing the country. I am sure the TX5 folks had the benefits of information from previous operations (FO0AAA, etc.) and the results of recent Needed lists to know where the needs are. What Chuck was critical of is exactly what they should do prior to and during an op. Know where the needs are, and try and help them out. Forget the dudes that are just trying to rack up band/mode slots. I know from experience, that they frequently only have short openings to certain continents, and that is when they have to limit their calls to them. The time might not match your needy time, but that is how things have to be done. I also know for a fact that they could always hear NA. After all, Clipperton is just off the coast of So Cal. Californian's could probably have worked them on 2M. And to the people who are openly critical of how or when they are doing things, or about the greatly shortened op, just be fair and really put yourself in their shoes. Few do. Look at how long it took under their poor circumstrances to just get the op started in the first place. I am sure they looked at the best and Worst case scenarios of what operating in that environment would be like, and unfortunately it was the Worst Case x 10. They made the best of a bad situation and hung in there longer than most of the critics would have. Repeated rain squalls, high winds, lightning and intense heat plagued them and caused the operation to be curtailed earlier than expected. Add to that the pesky and relentless crabs that abound on Clipperton that just won't go away, and tell me how you would have handled it. I think they gave us their best shot and ran the operation as well as we can fairly expect. Put a few extra bucks in the envelope. They deserve it. Another point that is beat to death is the issue of calling by the numbers. At any given time, you are going to be hearing certain areas best, and if you don't periodically go by the numbers, you are only going to be working stations from those areas since that is who you are hearing over eveyone else. Also, from a US standpoint, calling for 6's means you are listening for CA. Calling for 7's means you are listening for 6 states and that ought to keep that in mind when calling by the numbers. See what you stirred up Chuck (NPI). I suspect a grin. John Owens - N7TK -- Original message -- From: Ron Notarius W3WN [EMAIL PROTECTED] I would say that at the moment, NA and EU contain the largest concentrations of active DX'ers. And when considering that the last two Pacific DXpeditions -- specifically, VP6DX Ducie and TX5C Clipperton -- basically had to shoot OVER NA to get to EU, AF AS... directional CQ's become a little more understandable. Is it entirely, 100% fair? No. But what is? There are many other factors involved than the ones Charles cites. TX5C, for one, stated that there would be a concentration on EU because of demand. I'm sure I'm not the only DX'er who sat in front of the radio, early to late evenings, hearing TX5C booming 599+40 on 80 40 meter CW, but unable to call because of those two simple letters, EU. But, so what? The bottom line is, as always, that the DXpedition fronts the funds, does the dirty work, arranges the shipping and transportation -- in short, takes the risks -- and as such, determines who how where they will call. That's the way the game is played. To be honest, I'm not going to sit here and gripe about the TX5C gang. Sure, I'd love to have worked them on more than one band, but I'm happy that I finally got them late Friday night on 30 -- and I almost missed that chance, too (no, the dog didn't eat my coax -- again. But I did have to take the wife in to the ER due to bronchitis; if they'd had to admit her, instead of sending her home to recover...). In many ways, this DXpedition was snake-bit, especially weather wise. To do as well as they did, with the weather-related delays and disasters they had to deal with, is commendable to them. To second guess their (or anyone else's) decisions on who to work and such is very close to being uncalled for. And frankly, I think if there were some penalties for the chronic morons who constantly call out of turn, on top of other people, on top of the DX, and call call call... a few of them might learn. Not many, but a few. And it's the chronic morons we have to worry about, along with the UP police and the like... not those who inadvertently make a mistake or give in to a moment's frustration. I've never heard of anyone guilty of a momentary lapse being put on a secret naughty list... though I wish a few of the chronics might make them! 73 -Original
Re: [DX-CHAT] Directional CQs
At 10:52 PM 3/16/2008, Charles Harpole wrote: Many recent DXpeditions have, in my opinion, over-studied the data to serve under served areas, have propagation charts, and be extra aware of their important position as the only (last?) hams to be at that locale. One effect is the extensive use of DIRECTIONAL CQs... usually only EU or only NA. This is one of my biggest gripes in DXing (well, that and by the numbers). Human nature says that whenever you exclude a group of people for whatever good reason you have, the excluded will generally take offense and resentment will start to form, regardless whether this is rational or not. As such, there really is only one solution to this problem, and that's to open it up to everyone, everywhere for as long as possible (though I do think looking for the hardest parts of the world from where the DX is operating on the low bands, at the grey-line, is excellent operating practice). What this means, on the other hand, is the DX station needs to be skilled enough to handle the onslaught of callers from everywhere and have equipment and abilities to work the pileup down efficiently. The other problem with directional calls is CW - It's very difficult on CW to convey a sense of where you want to hear from. It's easy to send USA or NA, but that leaves out Central and South America - would the DX want those too? Or does he really JUST want the US/Canada? Ditto for calling for JA, but leaving out the rest of Asia, VK and ZL, or EU but not Africa, the middle-East or western Asia, etc. It's easier on SSB and RTTY, but still, the longer it takes to say WHO/WHERE you're listening for, the bigger and more unruly the pileup will get. It's easier for the pileup and the operator to send XX1XXX QRZ UP than XX1XXX QRZ EU AFRICA AND MIDDLE EAST ONLY or whatever. Sure, the wall will become louder on and near your QSX, but just work the loudest ones. Eventually you'll either get tired and go for an 807, or you'll run out of 59++ signals and you'll get to dig deeper to the ones who are only 59, then the 57s, then the 55s, etc...at least till you get spotted and get another round of 20-overs calling you again. If you have a rock-solid wall of noise with nothing leaping out at you, expand your QSX range to 5 or 7 kHz on SSB. Maybe even 10 if it's unusually bad. Work the edges, pick off the big guns. Eventually, you'll settle down to a single QSX with luck, pick 'em off with little effort. I sure can't speak for HS-land, but when I was on C6 I found that to be the easiest way to make Q's...take all callers. Though I DID take EU only for a couple of hours one night as I wanted to boost my country count a little. Regards, Peter, W2IRT Subscribe/unsubscribe, feedback, FAQ, problems http://njdxa.org/dx-chat To post a message, DX related items only, dx-chat@njdxa.org This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org
RE: [DX-CHAT] Directional CQs
I would say that at the moment, NA and EU contain the largest concentrations of active DX'ers. And when considering that the last two Pacific DXpeditions -- specifically, VP6DX Ducie and TX5C Clipperton -- basically had to shoot OVER NA to get to EU, AF AS... directional CQ's become a little more understandable. Is it entirely, 100% fair? No. But what is? There are many other factors involved than the ones Charles cites. TX5C, for one, stated that there would be a concentration on EU because of demand. I'm sure I'm not the only DX'er who sat in front of the radio, early to late evenings, hearing TX5C booming 599+40 on 80 40 meter CW, but unable to call because of those two simple letters, EU. But, so what? The bottom line is, as always, that the DXpedition fronts the funds, does the dirty work, arranges the shipping and transportation -- in short, takes the risks -- and as such, determines who how where they will call. That's the way the game is played. To be honest, I'm not going to sit here and gripe about the TX5C gang. Sure, I'd love to have worked them on more than one band, but I'm happy that I finally got them late Friday night on 30 -- and I almost missed that chance, too (no, the dog didn't eat my coax -- again. But I did have to take the wife in to the ER due to bronchitis; if they'd had to admit her, instead of sending her home to recover...). In many ways, this DXpedition was snake-bit, especially weather wise. To do as well as they did, with the weather-related delays and disasters they had to deal with, is commendable to them. To second guess their (or anyone else's) decisions on who to work and such is very close to being uncalled for. And frankly, I think if there were some penalties for the chronic morons who constantly call out of turn, on top of other people, on top of the DX, and call call call... a few of them might learn. Not many, but a few. And it's the chronic morons we have to worry about, along with the UP police and the like... not those who inadvertently make a mistake or give in to a moment's frustration. I've never heard of anyone guilty of a momentary lapse being put on a secret naughty list... though I wish a few of the chronics might make them! 73 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Charles Harpole Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 10:53 PM To: dx-chat@njdxa.org Subject: [DX-CHAT] Directional CQs Many recent DXpeditions have, in my opinion, over-studied the data to serve under served areas, have propagation charts, and be extra aware of their important position as the only (last?) hams to be at that locale. One effect is the extensive use of DIRECTIONAL CQs... usually only EU or only NA. A clue There are FOUR (five, really) other continents--not just countries-- NOT INCLUDED in those directional calls. And, if one calls out of turn from one of those other CONTINENTS, one is shunned or chastened or, worse, put secretly on a banned-for-QSL-card list. Hey, can we not just fix this situation? 73 from Un-called South East Asia. Charles Harpole HS0ZCW [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe/unsubscribe, feedback, FAQ, problems http://njdxa.org/dx-chat To post a message, DX related items only, dx-chat@njdxa.org This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org Subscribe/unsubscribe, feedback, FAQ, problems http://njdxa.org/dx-chat To post a message, DX related items only, dx-chat@njdxa.org This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org
RE: [DX-CHAT] Directional CQs
One thing I noted that at least one or two of the VP6DX team did was to mix in the directional calls. For example, on 30 meters, at the time I worked them, the op did about 5 minutes of UP EU, about the same just UP, then the same UP NA, then UP only again... with an occasional SA mixed in there. I think that was a good compromise. Gave each area a few minutes while propagation was open, and a general non-specific call so that other areas that had propagation at the time weren't excluded. And the intervals were short enough to down play the chance that propagation would fade out before someone got their shot for the night. Also, while I agree with Pete that the DX station needs to be skilled to be able to pull some of this off... well, let's face it, not everyone is. Like many skills, it's one that can and must be honed. So, that means that when the inexperienced op tries it, we must be patient (or learn patience) and give them a chance to hone those skills. Otherwise, you have situations like so much of the armchair quarterbacking that got thrown at many members of the TI9KK operation. If the inexperienced ops never have the chance to learn, then what are you going to do when experienced ops aren't available? 73 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Peter Dougherty Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 11:21 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; dx-chat@njdxa.org Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] Directional CQs At 10:52 PM 3/16/2008, Charles Harpole wrote: Many recent DXpeditions have, in my opinion, over-studied the data to serve under served areas, have propagation charts, and be extra aware of their important position as the only (last?) hams to be at that locale. One effect is the extensive use of DIRECTIONAL CQs... usually only EU or only NA. This is one of my biggest gripes in DXing (well, that and by the numbers). Human nature says that whenever you exclude a group of people for whatever good reason you have, the excluded will generally take offense and resentment will start to form, regardless whether this is rational or not. As such, there really is only one solution to this problem, and that's to open it up to everyone, everywhere for as long as possible (though I do think looking for the hardest parts of the world from where the DX is operating on the low bands, at the grey-line, is excellent operating practice). What this means, on the other hand, is the DX station needs to be skilled enough to handle the onslaught of callers from everywhere and have equipment and abilities to work the pileup down efficiently. The other problem with directional calls is CW - It's very difficult on CW to convey a sense of where you want to hear from. It's easy to send USA or NA, but that leaves out Central and South America - would the DX want those too? Or does he really JUST want the US/Canada? Ditto for calling for JA, but leaving out the rest of Asia, VK and ZL, or EU but not Africa, the middle-East or western Asia, etc. It's easier on SSB and RTTY, but still, the longer it takes to say WHO/WHERE you're listening for, the bigger and more unruly the pileup will get. It's easier for the pileup and the operator to send XX1XXX QRZ UP than XX1XXX QRZ EU AFRICA AND MIDDLE EAST ONLY or whatever. Sure, the wall will become louder on and near your QSX, but just work the loudest ones. Eventually you'll either get tired and go for an 807, or you'll run out of 59++ signals and you'll get to dig deeper to the ones who are only 59, then the 57s, then the 55s, etc...at least till you get spotted and get another round of 20-overs calling you again. If you have a rock-solid wall of noise with nothing leaping out at you, expand your QSX range to 5 or 7 kHz on SSB. Maybe even 10 if it's unusually bad. Work the edges, pick off the big guns. Eventually, you'll settle down to a single QSX with luck, pick 'em off with little effort. I sure can't speak for HS-land, but when I was on C6 I found that to be the easiest way to make Q's...take all callers. Though I DID take EU only for a couple of hours one night as I wanted to boost my country count a little. Regards, Peter, W2IRT Subscribe/unsubscribe, feedback, FAQ, problems http://njdxa.org/dx-chat To post a message, DX related items only, dx-chat@njdxa.org This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org Subscribe/unsubscribe, feedback, FAQ, problems http://njdxa.org/dx-chat To post a message, DX related items only, dx-chat@njdxa.org This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org
Re: [DX-CHAT] Directional CQs
Right on! Gerry VE6LB - Original Message - From: Wilson Lamb To: dx-chat@njdxa.org Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 9:01 AM Subject: [DX-CHAT] Directional CQs I'm an old ham, but new to DX-Chat. There seems to be an implication that people on DXpeditions have to follow some sort of unwritten rules? It seems to me that if they have spent a bunch of their money, perhaps with some backers too, they can operate any way THEY think is best for them, not us. If I were out there I would be turned off by pileup behavior and I would use any means possible to smooth things out! If thgey can cut the pileup down by 90% by using numbers or prefixes, they will make contacts much faster! Wilson W4BOH Subscribe/unsubscribe, feedback, FAQ, problems http://njdxa.org/dx-chat To post a message, DX related items only, dx-chat@njdxa.org This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org Subscribe/unsubscribe, feedback, FAQ, problems http://njdxa.org/dx-chat To post a message, DX related items only, dx-chat@njdxa.org This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org
Re: [DX-CHAT] Directional CQs
It seems to me that if they have spent a bunch of their money, perhaps with some backers too, they can operate any way THEY think is best for them, not us Why don't we just apply this to the whole of ham radio. Whoever spends the most money gets to make the rules. Don't get me wrong, 1) I very much appreciate what the DXpeditioners are doing 2) I think personally that many/most of them do a very good job 3) I think they largely do it because it's a fun and/or rewarding adventure that puts some spice back into their love of DX All this is good, all DXers should be generally appreciative, patient, and avoid being *unjustifiably* critical of DXpeditions. However, it really makes me worry for the future of DX and DXing fun when some hams have the attitude that spending $10,000 of your own money to go to some hellhole of an island to operate ham radio should make them into Ham Radio Gods whose operating procedures are sacrosanct. Not everything that a DXpedition might do is OK. In the case of VP6DX, I think they're running a ship-shape, ethical, and fun operation and really doing a fantastic service to the ham community. They're keeping the pileups largely under control to use a reasonable amount of band space and using the tactics that their excellent ops know to keep rates high. I think most DXpeditions fall into this general category. However, it would be possible for a DXpedition to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars, operate for two weeks, make 100,000 contacts and still be guilty of bad operating practices! If that statement costs me a rare DXCC counter from some grudge-holding DXpeditioner, let it be so, but there *are* things that a DXpedition could be doing unwittingly that make for big, bad, unruly public relations nightmare pileups or to unfairly treat some subgroup of amateurs calling. DXers are not the only ones in ham radio, and the DXpeditions and DXers have a general responsibility to run a clean operation that treats the entire world ham population fairly no matter WHO PAID FOR IT. The airwaves belong to all of us, from guys with a bamboo beam and a WWII era rig on a little island to the teeming hordes of NA, JA and EU superstations. And I think in that context, the present discussion is about what is fair treatment of the worldwide DXer (and in the case of pileup control, the general ham) population. Spending the money to go on the DXpedition does NOT give you the last word in that discussion. Having a fantastic team of propagation and operating experts and good organization and planning DOES give you a serious high ground from which to decide the best operating strategy, which is why I will staunchly defend VP6DX's decision to work a lot of EU EU, but it is not about money or simply being in a rare location. It's about running a fair and ethical, expert and fun operation that respects the WHOLE worldwide ham population and their rights to the airwaves, DXers and non-DXers alike. There are things that I've heard major DXpeditions do that I feel are very much like screaming fire in a crowded theater and I can't support that, even if they did pay fifty times normal price for their ticket. Again, I find that MOST DXpeditions are running a good show, but there ARE unwritten rules of fairness that they have to play by, we all do, and if they and we don't, we're sunk. 73, Dan Subscribe/unsubscribe, feedback, FAQ, problems http://njdxa.org/dx-chat To post a message, DX related items only, dx-chat@njdxa.org This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org
Re: [DX-CHAT] directional CQs
At 04:23 PM 2/21/2008, Charles Harpole wrote: Talking abt waiting out an EU only calling practice of 3 hrs from VP6DX. realize that there is NEVER a directional CQ for South East Asia. DXpeditions rarely call for Africa only, VK ZL only, nor South Asia only. An Asia only call really means JA if such a call was ever made. Yet another reason I'm vehemently against calling by areas, by numbers or any other kind of spoonfeeding in major DXpeditions. If they're going to be QRV for two or three weeks, take whoever you can hear loudest and let the loud guys make their Q's, then as the piles grow smaller, take the weaker and weaker stations until finally anybody who calls can get through. I can see a BS7 or similar ultra-rare/short-duration operations going by continent/area to give everyone a shot at one QSO in the log, but for big international multi-station QRO operations that will be on for a while, I'm strictly against this kind of operation. Of course, it's ultimately up to the organizers and operators on how they want to run their DXpedition--as it should and MUST be. My voice is just one from the thousands who try to work 'em everywhere. VP6DX has been an amazing DXpedition by all accounts but I must admit the hours-on-end of EU only on the low bands got very tiring very quickly. Dare I say it, I sincerely doubt we'll ever see six hours-on-end, every day, of NA only, EU-stand-by when a DXpedition starts up from some place where propagation to EU is better than it is to NA. Regards, Peter, W2IRT Subscribe/unsubscribe, feedback, FAQ, problems http://njdxa.org/dx-chat To post a message, DX related items only, dx-chat@njdxa.org This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org
Re: [DX-CHAT] directional CQs
I must admit the hours-on-end of EU only on the low bands got very tiring very quickly. And yet they've made about a fifth of the QSOs with EU than they have with NA on 160m and just 2/3 the number of QSOs with EU as they have with NA on 80m. Go figure. In the meantime, poor ZS's get stuck with a whisper and no one straining to hear them in particular. VP6DX has too loud of a signal on 160m and 80m in the states to NOT stand by for other areas. Everyone with 30W radiated power and a passing interest seems to be able to work them on 160 and 80, which is awesome, but that's an awful lot of people compared to the usual crew vying for TB and 80m QSOs. Peter, I'm sort of interested in seeing how this discussion plays out on a reflector with some international participants ;-) I don't know if you saw but the original poster KA3NRX in the epic eHam thread managed to snag himself an 80m QSO (with 100W + G5RV I do believe)... despite the frequent and thorough EU EU EU EU. The way the QSO stats and my personal experiences watching people work this one have played out, the only people in North America adversely affected by VP6DX's incessant EU'ing are the terminally impatient and those who are scared of being awake after dark. And in reference to the original post, Charles, I did witness VP6DX on 160m calling for EU/SA at least... guess that was last night. Not very often you get anyone calling for South America unless they're an EU guy looking for better lowband DX than us stupid W3's ;-) I'm sure the UA4's and OH's SM's and LA's who get approximately 30 minutes of propagation to VP6DX on 160m would love to stand by for the first five hours of a nine to twelve hour mutual darkness with great propagation listening to an excellent signal they're not supposed to call. I'm sure the Africans who get even less propagation wouldn't mind a standby for them... but if there are so few of them as to make the rate *zero* on the average attempt, it's unlikely they're going to get much window. I'm sure satisfied with my 11 band slots worked at quasi-convenient hours with 100W from a 50x100 foot lot in the DC suburbs with no tower... and no one was spoonfeeding me. You can continue to think that it should just be strong vs. weak without an appreciation of how much stronger a fairly weak NA could be in VP6 than a moderately strong EU but I think it's going to get you some bad karma Re: some very needed SE Asian expedition that just works JA's all day ;-) I sincerely doubt we'll ever see six hours-on-end, every day, of NA only, EU-stand-by when a DXpedition starts up from some place where propagation to EU is better than it is to NA. That would appear to be a different issue than your other objection, that no one should be spoon-fed 73, Dan Subscribe/unsubscribe, feedback, FAQ, problems http://njdxa.org/dx-chat To post a message, DX related items only, dx-chat@njdxa.org This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org
Re: [DX-CHAT] directional CQs
--- Peter Dougherty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 40 and 80, however, are a different story. They're putting huge numbers in the log, but look at 40m, especially. As of 2/21, 0040z, they were at 9010 to Europe on 40 and 7486 to NA. Holding NA ops back until 3am (east-coast time) *every* *single* *night* has kept those numbers a lot lower than I think they should be. I'm not sure that's a bad thing. The last Ducie ops in 2002/2003, there were likely many more QSOs on the high bands 10/15 than now. That implies that NA *probably* had a better chance on 40 than Europe, given those sunspots. So fast-forward to now. They *should* try harder to work EU on the low bands: - VP6 to EU is a more difficult path than VP6 to NA - the low bands are going to be better to EU than they were 4-5 years ago. As long as the demand is there, they should continue to work it! I assume they're not calling CQ without answers towards EU while others are waiting to call. They should be there another week. I'm sure everyone who needs it, and makes some sort of reasonable effort, will work it. 73 - Jim AD1C -- Jim Reisert AD1C/Ø, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.ad1c.us Subscribe/unsubscribe, feedback, FAQ, problems http://njdxa.org/dx-chat To post a message, DX related items only, dx-chat@njdxa.org This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org
Re: [DX-CHAT] directional CQs
At 07:12 PM 2/21/2008, you wrote: There are an awful lot of casual DXers, as I brought up in the eHam thread, who work full-time jobs and strong family obligations, who really only get 2 or 3 hours a night between supper and bedtime to play radio. I can't argue with that! However, there are a lot of 'em in Europe too. (Wait screw 'em... we wouldn't want to spoon feed anyone ;-) ) You say it tongue-in-cheek; I say it with mostly a straight fact. I'm very survival-of-the-fittest in regards to how I see Life, The Universe and Everything. Without straying off target too far, suffice to say I do, very much, believe that you deserve to get the results commensurate to the effort you put into any task, and the results should be by your own actions and knowledge of the world and the situation around you. This is one of the big things that draws me into DXing, to be honest. Probably took me an hour or two total just dipping in and out of the shack one call, two call, five call kind of stuff... and the casual NA DXer will have all of that to look forward to this coming Saturday and Sunday I'm sure! Oh, for sure. Everyone who wants Ducie Island and has access to a radio and the desire to turn it on and call them will get a Q this weekend, almost guaranteed. Do the casual NA DXers have an easy time on FORTY meters? No, probably not, but many if not all not all of my higher band contacts on *Saturday* were completed after sunset in all of EU... mostly shutting down those bands there. I don't even think the EU's have been able to hear VP6DX much on the higher bands... but your prop charts may prove me right or wrong on that. I'm looking at prop for OH, SP and EA. OH doesn't have much at all above 20, and even there, just a few hours, period. 1400-1530 on 20, maybe the same on 17 with lower reliability and not much beyond that. Slight chance on 15 and nothing on 10 or 12 to speak of. SP has even less short-path and about 2 hours long-path on 20, and not much else. EA, on the other hand, has a very good shot on all bands, including 10m, and not too much different on 15 and above than W1/W2/W3. Grab a copy of W6EL Prop (freeware) and plug in VP6/D into Terminal A and a variety of others in Terminal B. It's an interesting way to compare. You can run batch comparisons, too, though I've never done that. I think EU only on 40m all evening here makes it possible for the casual EU DXer to wake up early and work VP6DX on a reliable band ... something that the US casual DXer will still have a chance to in their morning on 40m as well, I would suppose, though I haven't listened for them at that time. Yup, if your schedule (or in most cases, your family's schedule) allows you to be up hamming at Dawn - and up to about an hour and a half after dawn on 40, you should get them easily. 40m is a huge band for the EUs at the expense of NA guys, I won't deny that. However, I think VP6DX is just using the propagation there as an opportunity to make up for the other bands! OK. maybe I'll just go with the flow. I'll change my mind. Next time Glorioso, Tromelin, Heard, Amsterdam/St.Paul or Crozet come up, I'll get all huffity when I have to fight an EU wall louder than ANY wall the EU guys would have had to fight through for Ducie on 40. I'll bet you one nickel we won't have a clear shot on 40, ever. If it's a 3 week DXpedition to Bhutan (I missed the first one - here's hoping another one starts up soon), I'd be insulted to be spoon-fed Isn't a 3 week DXpedition to Bhutan spoon-feeding in its own right, as is VP6DX and any other DXpedition that isn't some dude with an IC-706 and a dipole? Interesting point, actually. I missed out Marion Island a couple of years ago (couldn't hear them), but got Bouvet like that a few weeks back. Sure takes DXing to a more challenging level, that's for sure! I like bagging a few new ones like that, but honestly, I DO welcome the big operations, since I also compete for the DXCC challenge. But to the issue at hand, all I really want from any big operation is Anyone, Anywhere. Let the propagation do what it will, let the best stations and the best operators reap the rewards from their hard work, knowledge and expensive hardware. I'd have positively hated that concept as a n00b in 2001; I love it now that I'm a modest station, a journeyman's knowledge of propagation and technique and have a love of competition. Anyone know of a table of # of hams per continent so we can normalize the VP6DX stats table to reflect per capita QSOs? Would be interesting in discussing the original question. All their stats on online. This, I think, is the one you're interested in. I don't know from statistical analysis, so have at it: http://ducie2008.dl1mgb.com/qsostatistics/continents/index.php To me, how an operation chooses to handle the 40m CW band slot when there's a simultaneous opening to the United States and Europe tells me just how
