Re: [Elecraft] OT: Ground rods and concrete

[David Gilbert]

Everyone seems tired of this thread by now, so I'll make my final 
comment an observation that there is zero exposed rebar in the picture 
of that guy wire base that supposedly exploded because of it.  I'd offer 
the possibility that the base exploded because there wasn't enough 
rebar, not because there was too much.  The article itself makes the 
statement that faulty Ufer installations are the problem, not Ufer 
grounds per se.


Dave   Ab7E


On 4/18/2017 8:01 AM, Rick Dettinger wrote:

Here is an article that described a Ufer ground failure that prompted the 
installation of an extensive external grounding system on a 1900’ BC tower.

http://www.radioworld.com/headlines/0045/proper-grounding-and-bonding-are-crucial/338510

The Broadcast industry doesn’t seem to put their faith in Uber grounding.

Rick
  

On


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[Elecraft] Is the antenna tuner needed on the KX2 to see SWR?

[Tyler Haske]

I'm building my first HF rig and I've opted to go without an antenna tuner
since I plan on using a magnetic loop.

I see in the loops instructions I need to know the SWR to tune the antenna.

I see in the KX2 instructions it has overload protection based on the SWR.

... does the KX2 know the SWR without the tuner?

Tyler
KM4KRU
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Re: [Elecraft] A little theory

[kev...@coho.net]

The link was not off topic when I posted it.  My intention was not to 
advertise an already famous person but rather to get folks more 
interested in learning theory.  There has been so much discussion of 
grounding, dielectrics, antenna theory, impedance, and feedline problems 
which a few equations could solve quite quickly.  An equation can 
substitute for ten thousand words.  The Reflector would not be so 
deluged with antenna and feedline questions with just a little more 
theory being learned.


I find the ARRL antenna books anecdotal.  They give me fish but don't 
teach me how to fish.  When I learned the antenna equations I found I 
could fish any way I wanted to.


73,

 Kevin.  KD5ONS

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[Elecraft] Ground Rods and Congrete - Enough Said!

[Terry Brown]

This topic is taking on a life of its own.  It appears that there are two
camps in the discussion; each believing they have documented evidence that
they are right.  Perhaps it is time to agree to disagree and put the thread
to rest. 

 

Respectfully,

 

Terry de N7TB

 

 

 

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[Elecraft] [K3] K3 For Sale

[Will Ravenel]

Selling my K3/100 Ser #3856. It has been upgraded to the new KSYN3A for main 
and sub receivers, so has most of the performance of a K3S. Includes manuals, 
Fred Cady’s 3rd edition K3/P3 book, Rose Kopp dust cover and K3 DXpedition 
model bag with foam front and back panel protection, and power cord. Other 
included options:
 
- KAT3, K3 ATU Modular Kit 
- KSYN3AUPG, KSYN3A Upgrade Kit  
- KRX3A-K, K3 2nd RX Modular Kit (incl. KSYN3A synthesizer)
- KIO3, K3 I/O Interface Option
- KXV3A, K3 Transverter Interface Option (P3 ready)
- KUSB, Universal Serial Bus Adapter 
- KFL3A-2.7K, 2.7 KHz 5 Pole Filter on main and sub rcvr boards
- KFL3A-500, 500Hz, 5 Pole Filter 
- KFL3A-400, 400Hz, 8 Pole Filter 
- Inrad 700 Hz filter 
- KFL3A-600, 600Hz AM Filter  
- KBPF3, K3 General Coverage Receiver Module  
- K3SSKT, K3 Stainless H/W Kit

Non-smoking environment, I am original owner, cosmetically 9/10.
Will ship double boxed and insured within CONUS - $2550.
Contact me at 336-210-8966 or ai...@arrl.net  if 
interested or with questions.


 


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Re: [Elecraft] Sub Receiver & KBPF3

[Christopher Hoover]

>
> The TMP cables were in the way and sub-receiver box was a bit difficult
> getting the SUBIN and SUBOUT boards to align and mate properly.


I installed mine myself too.(And I just r/r recently with the addition
of the gen coverage bp filters on the main board.)   It is certainly
fiddly.  The mechanical design leaves much to be desired.

73, Christopher  AI6KG.

On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 4:27 AM, wa9fvp  wrote:

> I just installed the Sub receiver and the KBPF3A in my K3S.  I have one
> complaint and one concern.
>
> First the activation of the KBPF3A is very vague.  It's mentioned in the
> users manual on page 60 (the configuration menu) but there's nothing that
> says, while in (CONFIG:KBFP3) that you have to press [SUB] and then select
> "nor".  I double checked the installation manual for the sub receiver and
> the KBFP3A but there was nothing about activating the General Coverage
> filters.
>
> My concern is;  I consider myself as an experienced kit builder but for me,
> it was a bit difficult installing the Sub-Receiver.  The TMP cables were in
> the way and sub-receiver box was a bit difficult getting the SUBIN and
> SUBOUT boards to align and mate properly.  Someone who is new to kit
> building would have a more difficult time.
>
> The sub-receiver is working great and the one thing I like about it is;
> it's
> a clone of the main receiver with FM, AM, 2.8, 400 and 250Hz filters.  I
> wonder how the sub-receiver would stack-up on Sherwood Engineering's test
> data.
>
> Jack WA9FVP
> Willco Electronics
>
>
>
> -
> Jack WA9FVP
>
> Sent from my home-brew I5 Core PC
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.
> nabble.com/Sub-Receiver-KBPF3-tp7629327.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: [Elecraft] A little theory

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

Aaargh. Here's the link:

http://www.gocomics.com/alley-oop/2003/08/04

Ron AC7AC


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Re: [Elecraft] A little theory

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

I forgot to add, if you have any comments, let us take them off the Elecraft
list. The OT Traffic here has been FIERCE  lately, Hi! 

73, Ron AC7AC

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Ron
D'Eau Claire
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2017 7:43 PM
To: kev...@coho.net; elecraft@mailman.qth.net; 'QRP-L Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A little theory

For all of you Feynman fans out there, you might get a chuckle out of these
Alley Oop strips featuring Dick hisself from 2003. Arrow forward a couple of
days an Dr. Feynman will enter center stage, complete with Bongos. 

73, Ron AC7AC

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of
kev...@coho.net
Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2017 11:41 AM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net; QRP-L Mailing List
Subject: [Elecraft] A little theory

If you are not familiar with Richard Feynman he was a physicist who worked
on the Manhattan Project.  He was also a professor at Caltech.  
Here are some of his lectures on physics which he offered to undergrads.
Introductory college level physics taught by a master.

http://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/

73 & GL,

  Kevin.  KD5ONS

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Re: [Elecraft] A little theory

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

For all of you Feynman fans out there, you might get a chuckle out of these
Alley Oop strips featuring Dick hisself from 2003. Arrow forward a couple of
days an Dr. Feynman will enter center stage, complete with Bongos. 

73, Ron AC7AC

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of
kev...@coho.net
Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2017 11:41 AM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net; QRP-L Mailing List
Subject: [Elecraft] A little theory

If you are not familiar with Richard Feynman he was a physicist who worked
on the Manhattan Project.  He was also a professor at Caltech.  
Here are some of his lectures on physics which he offered to undergrads.
Introductory college level physics taught by a master.

http://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/

73 & GL,

  Kevin.  KD5ONS

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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Ground rods and concrete

[dave]

Let me inject an experience that occurred while I was a field engineer 
for the phone co. working in Miami. We had a buried cable that ran 
diagonally across an open green area. About 1/3 of the way across was 
what we called a 'hand hole', a shallow pit where a splice or repair 
had been done. It is back filled and, once the grass recovers, no one 
knows it is there. Lightning struck in the vicinity. The telco cable 
has the nice aluminum sheath and is well grounded. The lightning hops 
onto that in preference to running through the ground. The water in 
the hand hole exploded and left a small crater. The hole was about 2' 
deep and 3' x 5'.


This makes perfectly good sense to me. You have water constricted into 
a small enclosure. The lightning electrode, in this case the telco 
cable, gets very hot very quickly. The water turns to steam and 
explodes. Nothing surprising about that.


Let me also mention that the experts will tell us to not use solder on 
any grounding conductors as the solder will melt. Well . . . water 
boils at an appreciably lower temp than solder melts. What has 
happened to the water in the vicinity of the lightning electrode 
before the solder has had time to melt?


As for assertions that exploding Ufer grounds are a myth, I can tell 
you for certain that the crater in Miami was not a myth. I kept a 
photo of it on my desk for a few months to show those curious.


Experience tells me that Ufer grounds are, in general, a terrible 
idea. There is very little reason to risk a building or tower 
foundation to save the few $$$ of installing a correct ground system. 
Ufer grounds may be OK, indeed preferred, in places like West TX, NM, 
AZ, and parts of So CA, or in other very dry locations. But to use or 
recommend them in locations with much moisture is asking for trouble. 
In any location with much moisture, concrete will have the same water 
content as the surrounding soil.


73 de dave
ab9ca/4



On 4/18/17 6:39 PM, Ken G Kopp wrote:

I was the first to use the term "exploding tower base" in this discussion.
The term "exploding" was probably not correct.  As several others have
phrased it, an instant expansion of steam is more correct.  Concrete is
never totally "dry" in the context of this conversation.

I witnessed lightening blowing apart the two tower bases I spoke of in
person, directly, and in real-time. It happened in the mid-sixties at the
St. Petersburg, FL Coast Guard base.  As someone else has mentioned;
the Tampa Bay region has the highest incidence of lightening in the
Western Hemisphere.  To the one of you who accused my of lying ...
I was there ... you weren't.

At the time I was an ET aboard the USC (Now NOAA) Oceanographic
Survey ship Hydrographer/WTEI and we were in the area deliberately
attracting lightening with balloon-hoisted cables.  I -do- know something
about the infinite uncertainty of lightning.

I'm a retired electric power company two-way radio tech and have probably
dealt with more types of towers than most of you.  Large electric
transmission
line towers are almost always set on four concrete piers, and are grounded
with (usually) copper straps cad-welded to each tower leg and connected to
ground rods a bit away from the cement.  Each of us can search long enough
to find "facts" that support our various positons, especially on today's
Internet.

Here in the mountains of the West ... as well other regions ... finding and
maintaining a "good" ground at a radio site atop a mountain can be a
"challenge".  It's almost never done with ground rods.  My power company
employer has several hundred mountain-top microwave and/or radio sites.
Been there, done that, as they say.

One responder spoke of fitting a copper pipe with a garden hose fitting and
"flushing" it into the ground.  That works very well, and is how some of my
14 grounds are installed.  It helps if the downward end is partly
flattened, BTW.

A much bigger problem overall than lightening is water collecting in tower
legs,
especially in climates where it can rust (undetected) from the inside and /
or
freeze and split one or more legs.  There's an accepted way to avoid this.

73!

Ken Kopp - K0PP


On Apr 18, 2017 at 4:30 PM,  wrote:


some 40 years ago, maybe longer I put up a 50' rohn 25G tower. Dug the
hole


and set the tower base in it alone with a 12' 3/4" ground rod and
poured the
cement, left about 6" of ground rod protruding. I bonded to that rod
and grounded
the tower. 3 years later I had a huge lightning strike on my tower and
yes.. it cracked
that base.

never again

Ronnie W5SUM


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Re: [Elecraft] PTT help KX3/KXPA100

[Nr4c]

The ACC2 port is 2.5mm TRS, not TRRS. 

Sent from my iPhone
...nr4c. bill


> On Apr 18, 2017, at 1:53 PM, Michael Dinkelman  wrote:
> 
> Trying to get PTT working with a boom mic into the KX3.
> The microphone works fine using VOX into the microphone jack of the KX3.
> Of course, XMIT works too.
> 
> Trying to trigger PTT using the GPIO port of the KX3/KXPA100 accessory
> cable.
> 1) MICBTN configured to OFF  (tried PTT too)
> 2) ACC2 IO configured to LO=PTT
> 
> No PTT when using a mono plug into the GPIO port
> Gotta be something simple. What am I missing?
> 
> (I would try at the ACC2 port on the KX3 itself but no 2.5mm TRRS plugs
> at this point)
> 
> cheers
> mike, n7wa
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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Ground rods and concrete

[Bill Johnson]

I have a deceased HAM buddy who espoused grounding to the nth degree.  His 
recommendation, especially for his on premise cell phone towers, was to have as 
much metallic in the ground to detract large lightening hits to bypass radios 
and go to ground.  K9KGM ( google his stuff) was his call and he not only 
believed but lived through major lightening hits to his towers, and counselled 
any of those he consulting with.  You need adequate metal in the ground to 
dissipate the effects of a lightning strike.  This doesn't guarantee against 
damage but certainly will help avoid the effect of a strike.  Now the problem 
is:  I have never been hit, therefore I am doing the right thing. :-)  Or, I 
have insurance, so what does it matter?  Thus the issues are answered?

73,
Bill
K9YEQ

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of David 
Gilbert
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2017 2:26 AM
To: Rick Dettinger 
Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: Ground rods and concrete


You also have many thousands of ham radio towers in northwest 7 land with 
either Ufer grounds or embedded tower bases.  You tell me how many of them have 
exploded during lightning strikes, and how that justifies the admonition to 
"never encase a ground rod in a tower base".

I once did an extensive internet search trying to find documented examples of 
concrete structures that had exploded from the inside out due to internal 
grounded conductors.  I couldn't find a single one.  
Maybe you can find one, and if so I'd like to see the link.  I did find several 
instances of damage to concrete structures from lightning hits, but all of them 
had external damage from simple lightning strikes.  Most other damage was 
attributed to the fact that there wasn't any grounding at all ... i.e., an 
ungrounded structure on top of a concrete base.

 From a theoretical point of view, I could picture a discharge causing more 
damage from insufficient metal in the concrete rather than too much.  Spread 
the current ... minimize the heat buildup. If you want to argue that a single 
ground rod in a concrete base is a poor idea, OK ... 
I can buy that.  But these other blanket statements are garbage science.

Dave   AB7E



On 4/17/2017 10:45 PM, Rick Dettinger wrote:
> A Uber ground was developed for dry areas during WW2.  In damp areas, the 
> concrete can do just what happened in the concrete pole test.
>
> Per Wikipedia article:
> "A disadvantage of Ufer grounds is that the moisture in the concrete can 
> flash into steam during a lightning strike or similar high energy fault 
> condition. This can crack the surrounding concrete and damage the building 
> foundation.”
>
> We have plenty of damp soil in northwest 7 land.
>
> Best,
> Rick
>   
>> On Apr 17, 2017, at 9:57 PM, David Gilbert  wrote:
>>
>>
>> That isn't even close to being the same condition and only serves to help 
>> perpetuate a stupid myth that refuses to die among the ill informed.  Anyone 
>> that doesn't understand that a Ufer ground is essentially multiple ground 
>> rods encased in concrete is indeed ill informed.  And anyone who doesn't 
>> understand the mechanisms and considerations behind a Ufer ground shouldn't 
>> be making contributions to threads like this.
>>
>> Sorry for the ire displayed by me here, but this stupid topic keeps 
>> surfacing year after year in ham radio circles ... and specifically this 
>> forum ... without the least bit of thoughtful consideration behind it.  I'm 
>> tired of our hobby, supposedly a technically based one, being subject to 
>> definitively stated exhortations that are so demonstrably wrong.
>>
>> Dave  AB7E
>>
>>
>>
>> On 4/17/2017 9:09 PM, Rick Dettinger wrote:
>>> I don’t think its a myth.  In the early 1970’s, the power company I worked 
>>> for was testing out some hollow reinforced concrete poles.  There was 
>>> considerable concern by the line workers that the poles might be more 
>>> dangerous to work on than wooden poles, in the event of an accident.  To 
>>> check this, we installed one of the poles in a sub station, and wrapped a 
>>> 26KV 1200 amp feeder conductor around the pole.  When the station breaker 
>>> was closed, the pole exploded dramatically, with a large fireball.  The 
>>> results might have something to do with moisture content in the concrete.  
>>> The results convinced us to only use the poles on transmission lines that 
>>> wouldn’t be worked hot, like we did with distribution lines.  Of course, 
>>> the power levels are much higher in lightening strikes.  The conduction 
>>> paths should similar from encapsulated ground rods in a tower base to Earth.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Rick  K7MW
>>>
>>>
>>>
 On Apr 17, 2017, at 8:32 PM, Doug Renwick  wrote:

 That myth refuses to die. I have 5 concrete tower bases with ground 
 rods partially encased and never a worry about an exploding 

[Elecraft] 1.8 kHz SSB filter for sale

[mark roz via Elecraft]

I have for sale like new KFL3A-1.8K  1.8 kHz, 8-pole SSB filter for K3/K3S.
$109 shipped CONUS. anegadasail at yahoo.com
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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Ground rods and concrete

[riese-k3djc]

I sure hope so

Bob K3DJC

On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 18:10:48 -0400 "Terry Posey" 
writes:
> I expect that the Moderator will be ending this Off Topic soon.  
> 
> However:
> 
> One of my clients operates a large 90 tower (all self-supported) 
> microwave
> system here in Florida.  Florida is often regarded as the lightning 
> capital
> of the world.  I have helped my client with repairing damaged 
> (cracked)
> tower foundations.  Approximately $1 Million have been spent over 
> the last
> five years repairing concrete foundations that have embedded Ufer 
> rods in
> addition to an extensive external grounding system comprised of 
> radials and
> soil driven rods.  No repairs have been needed to any of the tower
> foundations that do not have Ufer embedded rods.
> 
> I have noticed that the damaged foundations cracks seem to appear 
> after 15
> years of service.  This could be evidence of long term repetitive 
> internal
> stresses - perhaps stresses resulting from steam expansion of the 
> concrete's
> internal moisture due to repetitive high energy lightning pulses to 
> the Ufer
> rod.  Of course, none of that thought is easily provable.
> 
> In the meantime, I do not include Ufer ground rods in any tower 
> foundation
> designs that I have professional responsibility.   
> 
> Terry K4RX
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Ground rods and concrete

[Rick Dettinger]

Thyir’er we go!

73,
Rick  K7MW





> On Apr 18, 2017, at 6:01 PM, Matt Zilmer  wrote:
> 
> Time to update that list of frequently misspelled words. It is very long, but 
> also distinguished.
> 
> How about it's versus its?  The first is a contraction, and the second is a 
> possessive.  I think, from experience, that this is the single most common 
> spelling error that I see from English-first writers.
> 
> /me ducks.  I'm SURE this is off topic.
> 
> 73,
> 
> matt W6NIA
> 
> 
> On 4/18/2017 5:03 PM, Randy Lake wrote:
>> This has been bugging me for a while and I am now in a mindframe to comment.
>> Lightening:
>> light·en·ing
>> ˈlītniNG/
>> *noun*
>> 
>>1. a drop in the level of the uterus during the last weeks of pregnancy
>>as the head of the fetus engages in the pelvis.
>> 
>> Come on !!
>> 
>> Randy
>> N1KWF
>> 
>> 
>> On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 7:39 PM, Ken G Kopp  wrote:
>> 
>>> I was the first to use the term "exploding tower base" in this discussion.
>>> The term "exploding" was probably not correct.  As several others have
>>> phrased it, an instant expansion of steam is more correct. Concrete is
>>> never totally "dry" in the context of this conversation.
>>> 
>>> I witnessed lightening blowing apart the two tower bases I spoke of in
>>> person, directly, and in real-time. It happened in the mid-sixties at the
>>> St. Petersburg, FL Coast Guard base.  As someone else has mentioned;
>>> the Tampa Bay region has the highest incidence of lightening in the
>>> Western Hemisphere.  To the one of you who accused my of lying ...
>>> I was there ... you weren't.
>>> 
>>> At the time I was an ET aboard the USC (Now NOAA) Oceanographic
>>> Survey ship Hydrographer/WTEI and we were in the area deliberately
>>> attracting lightening with balloon-hoisted cables.  I -do- know something
>>> about the infinite uncertainty of lightning.
>>> 
>>> I'm a retired electric power company two-way radio tech and have probably
>>> dealt with more types of towers than most of you.  Large electric
>>> transmission
>>> line towers are almost always set on four concrete piers, and are grounded
>>> with (usually) copper straps cad-welded to each tower leg and connected to
>>> ground rods a bit away from the cement.  Each of us can search long enough
>>> to find "facts" that support our various positons, especially on today's
>>> Internet.
>>> 
>>> Here in the mountains of the West ... as well other regions ... finding and
>>> maintaining a "good" ground at a radio site atop a mountain can be a
>>> "challenge".  It's almost never done with ground rods.  My power company
>>> employer has several hundred mountain-top microwave and/or radio sites.
>>> Been there, done that, as they say.
>>> 
>>> One responder spoke of fitting a copper pipe with a garden hose fitting and
>>> "flushing" it into the ground.  That works very well, and is how some of my
>>> 14 grounds are installed.  It helps if the downward end is partly
>>> flattened, BTW.
>>> 
>>> A much bigger problem overall than lightening is water collecting in tower
>>> legs,
>>> especially in climates where it can rust (undetected) from the inside and /
>>> or
>>> freeze and split one or more legs.  There's an accepted way to avoid this.
>>> 
>>> 73!
>>> 
>>> Ken Kopp - K0PP
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Apr 18, 2017 at 4:30 PM,  wrote:
>>> 
 some 40 years ago, maybe longer I put up a 50' rohn 25G tower. Dug the
 hole
>>> and set the tower base in it alone with a 12' 3/4" ground rod and
>>> poured the
>>> cement, left about 6" of ground rod protruding. I bonded to that rod
>>> and grounded
>>> the tower. 3 years later I had a huge lightning strike on my tower and
>>> yes.. it cracked
>>> that base.
>>> 
>>> never again
>>> 
>>> Ronnie W5SUM
>>> 
 __
 
 
>>> __
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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>>> 
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> Message delivered to randyn1...@gmail.com
>>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> -- 
> "A delay is better than a disaster."
> -- unknonwn
> 
> Matt Zilmer, W6NIA
> [Shiraz]
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Ground rods and concrete

[Matt Zilmer]

Time to update that list of frequently misspelled words. It is very 
long, but also distinguished.


How about it's versus its?  The first is a contraction, and the second 
is a possessive.  I think, from experience, that this is the single most 
common spelling error that I see from English-first writers.


/me ducks.  I'm SURE this is off topic.

73,

matt W6NIA


On 4/18/2017 5:03 PM, Randy Lake wrote:

This has been bugging me for a while and I am now in a mindframe to comment.
Lightening:
light·en·ing
ˈlītniNG/
*noun*

1. a drop in the level of the uterus during the last weeks of pregnancy
as the head of the fetus engages in the pelvis.

Come on !!

Randy
N1KWF


On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 7:39 PM, Ken G Kopp  wrote:


I was the first to use the term "exploding tower base" in this discussion.
The term "exploding" was probably not correct.  As several others have
phrased it, an instant expansion of steam is more correct.  Concrete is
never totally "dry" in the context of this conversation.

I witnessed lightening blowing apart the two tower bases I spoke of in
person, directly, and in real-time. It happened in the mid-sixties at the
St. Petersburg, FL Coast Guard base.  As someone else has mentioned;
the Tampa Bay region has the highest incidence of lightening in the
Western Hemisphere.  To the one of you who accused my of lying ...
I was there ... you weren't.

At the time I was an ET aboard the USC (Now NOAA) Oceanographic
Survey ship Hydrographer/WTEI and we were in the area deliberately
attracting lightening with balloon-hoisted cables.  I -do- know something
about the infinite uncertainty of lightning.

I'm a retired electric power company two-way radio tech and have probably
dealt with more types of towers than most of you.  Large electric
transmission
line towers are almost always set on four concrete piers, and are grounded
with (usually) copper straps cad-welded to each tower leg and connected to
ground rods a bit away from the cement.  Each of us can search long enough
to find "facts" that support our various positons, especially on today's
Internet.

Here in the mountains of the West ... as well other regions ... finding and
maintaining a "good" ground at a radio site atop a mountain can be a
"challenge".  It's almost never done with ground rods.  My power company
employer has several hundred mountain-top microwave and/or radio sites.
Been there, done that, as they say.

One responder spoke of fitting a copper pipe with a garden hose fitting and
"flushing" it into the ground.  That works very well, and is how some of my
14 grounds are installed.  It helps if the downward end is partly
flattened, BTW.

A much bigger problem overall than lightening is water collecting in tower
legs,
especially in climates where it can rust (undetected) from the inside and /
or
freeze and split one or more legs.  There's an accepted way to avoid this.

73!

Ken Kopp - K0PP


On Apr 18, 2017 at 4:30 PM,  wrote:


some 40 years ago, maybe longer I put up a 50' rohn 25G tower. Dug the
hole

 and set the tower base in it alone with a 12' 3/4" ground rod and
poured the
 cement, left about 6" of ground rod protruding. I bonded to that rod
and grounded
 the tower. 3 years later I had a huge lightning strike on my tower and
yes.. it cracked
 that base.

 never again

 Ronnie W5SUM


__



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--
"A delay is better than a disaster."
-- unknonwn

Matt Zilmer, W6NIA
[Shiraz]

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[Elecraft] FS - KX3 Complete Base Station price drop

[Jon Moody]

All,

The XV222 transverter has been spoken for.  Thanks to all that replied.

-- 
73
Jon
KG6VDW
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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Ground rods and concrete

[Randy Lake]

This has been bugging me for a while and I am now in a mindframe to comment.
Lightening:
light·en·ing
ˈlītniNG/
*noun*

   1. a drop in the level of the uterus during the last weeks of pregnancy
   as the head of the fetus engages in the pelvis.

Come on !!

Randy
N1KWF


On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 7:39 PM, Ken G Kopp  wrote:

> I was the first to use the term "exploding tower base" in this discussion.
> The term "exploding" was probably not correct.  As several others have
> phrased it, an instant expansion of steam is more correct.  Concrete is
> never totally "dry" in the context of this conversation.
>
> I witnessed lightening blowing apart the two tower bases I spoke of in
> person, directly, and in real-time. It happened in the mid-sixties at the
> St. Petersburg, FL Coast Guard base.  As someone else has mentioned;
> the Tampa Bay region has the highest incidence of lightening in the
> Western Hemisphere.  To the one of you who accused my of lying ...
> I was there ... you weren't.
>
> At the time I was an ET aboard the USC (Now NOAA) Oceanographic
> Survey ship Hydrographer/WTEI and we were in the area deliberately
> attracting lightening with balloon-hoisted cables.  I -do- know something
> about the infinite uncertainty of lightning.
>
> I'm a retired electric power company two-way radio tech and have probably
> dealt with more types of towers than most of you.  Large electric
> transmission
> line towers are almost always set on four concrete piers, and are grounded
> with (usually) copper straps cad-welded to each tower leg and connected to
> ground rods a bit away from the cement.  Each of us can search long enough
> to find "facts" that support our various positons, especially on today's
> Internet.
>
> Here in the mountains of the West ... as well other regions ... finding and
> maintaining a "good" ground at a radio site atop a mountain can be a
> "challenge".  It's almost never done with ground rods.  My power company
> employer has several hundred mountain-top microwave and/or radio sites.
> Been there, done that, as they say.
>
> One responder spoke of fitting a copper pipe with a garden hose fitting and
> "flushing" it into the ground.  That works very well, and is how some of my
> 14 grounds are installed.  It helps if the downward end is partly
> flattened, BTW.
>
> A much bigger problem overall than lightening is water collecting in tower
> legs,
> especially in climates where it can rust (undetected) from the inside and /
> or
> freeze and split one or more legs.  There's an accepted way to avoid this.
>
> 73!
>
> Ken Kopp - K0PP
>
>
> On Apr 18, 2017 at 4:30 PM,  wrote:
>
> > some 40 years ago, maybe longer I put up a 50' rohn 25G tower. Dug the
> > hole
>
> and set the tower base in it alone with a 12' 3/4" ground rod and
> poured the
> cement, left about 6" of ground rod protruding. I bonded to that rod
> and grounded
> the tower. 3 years later I had a huge lightning strike on my tower and
> yes.. it cracked
> that base.
>
> never again
>
> Ronnie W5SUM
>
> > __
> >
> >
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to randyn1...@gmail.com
>



-- 
Randy Lake N1KWF
73 Gunn Rd.
Keene,NH
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[Elecraft] K3S Milliwatt Output Level on 630 Meter Band

[John Klewer]

Been in discussions with Elecraft regarding my K3S (110900 and its
performance at 472-is kHz.

My measurements surprised me a bit...I was expecting a bit more output but
my particular K3S will output barely 285 uW (when power set to nominal 1.0
mw) and a max of about .45 mw with power control set wide open.

I understand that gain at this frequency is easy to get to make up for any
shortfall...just wondering what sorts of measured output power others have
seen on their K3?

Thanks

John, N6AX

ps power measured with HP 437/8482A, HP 3400A RMS voltmeter and o-scope
with very close correlation between the three instruments
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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Ground rods and concrete

[Ken G Kopp]

I was the first to use the term "exploding tower base" in this discussion.
The term "exploding" was probably not correct.  As several others have
phrased it, an instant expansion of steam is more correct.  Concrete is
never totally "dry" in the context of this conversation.

I witnessed lightening blowing apart the two tower bases I spoke of in
person, directly, and in real-time. It happened in the mid-sixties at the
St. Petersburg, FL Coast Guard base.  As someone else has mentioned;
the Tampa Bay region has the highest incidence of lightening in the
Western Hemisphere.  To the one of you who accused my of lying ...
I was there ... you weren't.

At the time I was an ET aboard the USC (Now NOAA) Oceanographic
Survey ship Hydrographer/WTEI and we were in the area deliberately
attracting lightening with balloon-hoisted cables.  I -do- know something
about the infinite uncertainty of lightning.

I'm a retired electric power company two-way radio tech and have probably
dealt with more types of towers than most of you.  Large electric
transmission
line towers are almost always set on four concrete piers, and are grounded
with (usually) copper straps cad-welded to each tower leg and connected to
ground rods a bit away from the cement.  Each of us can search long enough
to find "facts" that support our various positons, especially on today's
Internet.

Here in the mountains of the West ... as well other regions ... finding and
maintaining a "good" ground at a radio site atop a mountain can be a
"challenge".  It's almost never done with ground rods.  My power company
employer has several hundred mountain-top microwave and/or radio sites.
Been there, done that, as they say.

One responder spoke of fitting a copper pipe with a garden hose fitting and
"flushing" it into the ground.  That works very well, and is how some of my
14 grounds are installed.  It helps if the downward end is partly
flattened, BTW.

A much bigger problem overall than lightening is water collecting in tower
legs,
especially in climates where it can rust (undetected) from the inside and /
or
freeze and split one or more legs.  There's an accepted way to avoid this.

73!

Ken Kopp - K0PP


On Apr 18, 2017 at 4:30 PM,  wrote:

> some 40 years ago, maybe longer I put up a 50' rohn 25G tower. Dug the
> hole

and set the tower base in it alone with a 12' 3/4" ground rod and
poured the
cement, left about 6" of ground rod protruding. I bonded to that rod
and grounded
the tower. 3 years later I had a huge lightning strike on my tower and
yes.. it cracked
that base.

never again

Ronnie W5SUM

> __
>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Ground rods and concrete

[w5sum]

some 40 years ago, maybe longer I put up a 50' rohn 25G tower. Dug the hole 
and set the tower base in it alone with a 12'
3/4" ground rod and poured the cement, left about 6" of ground rod 
protruding. I bonded to that rod and grounded the tower.
3 years later I had a huge lightning strike on my tower and yes.. it cracked 
that base.


never again

Ronnie W5SUM 


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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Ground rods and concrete

[Terry Posey]

I expect that the Moderator will be ending this Off Topic soon.  

However:

One of my clients operates a large 90 tower (all self-supported) microwave
system here in Florida.  Florida is often regarded as the lightning capital
of the world.  I have helped my client with repairing damaged (cracked)
tower foundations.  Approximately $1 Million have been spent over the last
five years repairing concrete foundations that have embedded Ufer rods in
addition to an extensive external grounding system comprised of radials and
soil driven rods.  No repairs have been needed to any of the tower
foundations that do not have Ufer embedded rods.

I have noticed that the damaged foundations cracks seem to appear after 15
years of service.  This could be evidence of long term repetitive internal
stresses - perhaps stresses resulting from steam expansion of the concrete's
internal moisture due to repetitive high energy lightning pulses to the Ufer
rod.  Of course, none of that thought is easily provable.

In the meantime, I do not include Ufer ground rods in any tower foundation
designs that I have professional responsibility.   

Terry K4RX

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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Feedline Question

[Wes Stewart]

Yes, just like the bio (https://qrz.com/db/N7WS) says; been here 70 years.  I 
like to say I was conceived here, since my parents met and married in Tucson, 
but were actually in San Diego when I was born.  They moved back when I was a 
young child and I've never left.  No reason to, unless I want a chip shot to 
SV/A, instead of, 
I'll-never-live-long-enough-to-work-this-guy-through-the-east-coast.


Wes, N7WS, ex KN7CVT, K7CVT



.On 4/18/2017 1:24 PM, Phil Wheeler wrote:

Hey, and it looks like you are really in 7-land, Wes!

OTOH, I'm the "real W7OX", live in a suburb of Los Angeles and have not lived 
in 7-land (OR/WA) since 1960; farthest North was Palo Alto when I was at 
Stanford 1963-65.  But 20 years ago we considered retiring to Portland very 
seriously, so I used the Gates to get back my original call -- W7UOX -- and 
then shorten it to W7OX.


I like having the call for old times sake. But I do wish the prefixes had call 
area geographic meaning as they did in olden days.


73, Phil W7OX 


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Re: [Elecraft] Low power out, ERR TXG when trying to calibrate power

[M0VFC]

Just to update on this thread: repeating the calibration on 10MHz with
13.8V applied does get to 4/6W indicated on the VFO B display, but on
tapping XMIT, still gives ERR TXG (D=228 or thereabouts on the main bit of
the display). I'll drop Elecraft an email.

73,
Rob, M0VFC

On 18 April 2017 at 13:07, Don Wilhelm [via Elecraft] <
ml-node+s365791n7629474...@n2.nabble.com> wrote:

> Rob,
>
> I would try running the TX Gain Calibration with a higher voltage power
> source - at least 13.8 volts.
>
> If it still fails, contact Elecraft support.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>




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View this message in context: 
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Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Ground rods and concrete

[Edward R Cole]

I should preface this by saying I live on the Pacific Coast of Alaska 
(2 miles from salt water).


I worked in two-way communications for 30 years and recall all towers 
having external copper lines from the top to ground rods external to 
the concrete base. Most of the hardlines were equipped with grounding 
kits tied to that ground rod.


Also, my house has no concrete slab (4-1/2 foot high crawl space with 
concrete block foundation walls interior of the crawl space is lined 
with HD plastic vapor barrier with bare ground floor under the 
plastic).  Attached garage is on concrete slab.


My 240vac service is buried from transformer box at property edge 
with buried utilities for about 1/4 mile where utilities run on 
wooden poles.  There is a copper ground rod below my power meter box 
with what appears to be No. 10 solid copper ground wire.  Service 
wiring is aluminum.  Telephone service box is adjacent to power meter 
and ties its ground to the same ground rod.


My ham shack is the third bedroom on opposite side of the house where 
I installed a ten-foot copper ground rod.  I have a tower at end of 
house (about 40-feet from the ham radio entrance) and another tower 
45-feet from the other end of the house.  I run 120-foot 1-5/8 inch 
hardline from that tower to the ham radio entrance and ground the 
shield at both ends with a copper ground rod.  The ground rod at the 
tower is tied to ground radials (on ground surface) for my 
inverted-L.  To tie the radio ground rod to electric service ground 
rod would require about 100-foot run around edge of the house.


However, I did run 45-foot of 240vac via the crawl space to the ham 
shack with 4-conductor wire which has No. 10 copper safety wire tied 
to ground at load center and at 60A breaker box in the shack, so all 
shack grounds including the shack ground rod are tied back via that 
cable.  Main ground tie from 60A box to shack external ground rod is 
via No. 8 (includes grounding of 4.2kV PS to earth ground).


Neither tower is bonded to a ground rod, so I have no lightning 
protection, though LMR-600 line on the tower ties the top antenna 
structure to the ground where the 7-16 DIN coax connection is made 
with the 1-5/8 line.  That may offer some static drain but not lightning rated.


Fortunately the maritime climate does not produce lightning wx.  I 
have heard thunder maybe three times and seen a couple lightning 
flashes over the 25 years living in this area.  Not saying it can't 
happen but the risk seems minuscule.  BTW no lightening crash noise 
on 80m in summer (except that propagated by ionosphere from somewhere 
hundreds or thousands miles away).


73, Ed - KL7UW
  http://www.kl7uw.com
Dubus-NA Business mail:
  dubus...@gmail.com 


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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Ground rods and concrete

[tpo...@nettally.com tpo...@nettally.com]

I expect that the Moderator will be ending this Off Top soon.  However:

One of my clients operates a large 90 tower (all self-supported) microwave 
system here in Florida.  Florida is often regarded as the lightning capital of 
the world.  I have helped my client with repairing damaged (cracked) tower 
foundations.  Approximately $1 Million have been spent over the last five years 
repairing concrete foundations that have embedded Ufer rods in addition to an 
extensive external grounding system comprised of radials and soil driven rods.  
No repairs have been needed to any of the tower foundations that do not have 
Ufer embedded rods.

I have noticed that the damaged foundations cracks seem to appear after 15 
years of service.  This could be evidence of long term repetitive internal 
stresses - perhaps stresses resulting from steam expansion of the concrete's 
internal moisture due to repetitive high energy lightning pulses to the Ufer 
rod.  Of course, none of thought is provable.

In the meantime, I do not include Ufer ground rods in any tower foundation 
designs that I have professional responsibility.
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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Feedline Question

[Phil Wheeler]

Hey, and it looks like you are really in 7-land, Wes!

OTOH, I'm the "real W7OX", live in a suburb of Los 
Angeles and have not lived in 7-land (OR/WA) since 
1960; farthest North was Palo Alto when I was at 
Stanford 1963-65.  But 20 years ago we considered 
retiring to Portland very seriously, so I used the 
Gates to get back my original call -- W7UOX -- and 
then shorten it to W7OX.


I like having the call for old times sake. But I 
do wish the prefixes had call area geographic 
meaning as they did in olden days.


73, Phil W7OX

On 4/18/17 12:57 PM, Wes Stewart wrote:
I'm cursed.  It's bad enough that I've worked (I 
thought) several stations in DX pileups only to 
later have the DX say, "Nope, we worked N6WS, 
not N7WS".  Now my work is attributed to him 
too.  (Just kidding Jim)


Actually, the article never appeared in QST.  
Too technical; it went right to the Antenna 
Compendium.  And as a caveat, I never intended 
the "wet" numbers to take on mythical 
properties.  Water most definitely negatively 
affects ladder lines (or as our European friends 
say, "chicken ladder line") but it's really 
really difficult to quantify with precision.


I never did get around to testing the piece of 
Wireman line that my friend Danny, K6MHE, sent 
me that was covered in moss. Living among 
Redwood trees is considerably different from 
living among Saguaro Cactii.


Wes, the real N7WS

 On 4/18/2017 10:37 AM, Jim Brown wrote:

On Tue,4/18/2017 10:10 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
Then there is the loss based on number of 
spacers and loss tangent of the spacer 
material modifying the lesser air loss.


Below UHF, loss in transmission line is 
virtually all due to copper losses unless the 
dielectric material is wet or is otherwise made 
conductive.


Quite a few years ago, N6WS did some excellent 
work showing that losses in window line are 
greatly increased when it is wet. His work was 
published in QST and later included in Antenna 
Compendium #6. It should be required reading 
for anyone considering window line. He measured 
four types of window line and some open wire 
line he built himself. Putting some numbers to 
it, Wes's measurements showed loss at 50 MHz 
increased from about 0.4 dB/100 ft to more 
almost 6 dB/100 ft when it was wet. The open 
wire line showed no increased loss when wet.


73, Jim K9YC


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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Feedline Question

[Wes Stewart]

I'm cursed.  It's bad enough that I've worked (I thought) several stations in DX 
pileups only to later have the DX say, "Nope, we worked N6WS, not N7WS".  Now my 
work is attributed to him too.  (Just kidding Jim)


Actually, the article never appeared in QST.  Too technical; it went right to 
the Antenna Compendium.  And as a caveat, I never intended the "wet" numbers to 
take on mythical properties.  Water most definitely negatively affects ladder 
lines (or as our European friends say, "chicken ladder line") but it's really 
really difficult to quantify with precision.


I never did get around to testing the piece of Wireman line that my friend 
Danny, K6MHE, sent me that was covered in moss. Living among Redwood trees is 
considerably different from living among Saguaro Cactii.


Wes, the real N7WS

 On 4/18/2017 10:37 AM, Jim Brown wrote:

On Tue,4/18/2017 10:10 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
Then there is the loss based on number of spacers and loss tangent of the 
spacer material modifying the lesser air loss.


Below UHF, loss in transmission line is virtually all due to copper losses 
unless the dielectric material is wet or is otherwise made conductive.


Quite a few years ago, N6WS did some excellent work showing that losses in 
window line are greatly increased when it is wet. His work was published in 
QST and later included in Antenna Compendium #6. It should be required reading 
for anyone considering window line. He measured four types of window line and 
some open wire line he built himself. Putting some numbers to it, Wes's 
measurements showed loss at 50 MHz increased from about 0.4 dB/100 ft to more 
almost 6 dB/100 ft when it was wet. The open wire line showed no increased 
loss when wet.


73, Jim K9YC 


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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Ground rods and concrete

[John K9UWA]

If you have a 50 foot tower with a tribander on it among a bunch of 70 foot or 
taller Trees then perhaps you will survive lightning strikes without major 
damage. However if you have something like my situation things change 
rapidly. I have three towers the tallest is 175 feet to the top antenna. Trees 
are all at 75 feet or less. I am the neighborhood lightning rod. I installed 
this 
tower in late 1988 and in early 1989 we sustained a major hit. It blew up 
every radio computer the microwave the frig the TV sets. lots of coax and 
many other things made from metal. My station is in northern Indiana so we 
do get some nice thunderstorms. Not as bad as Florida but bad enough. My 
Assigned Risk insurance company said you have 30 days to either get that 
stuff all on the ground or install a "Commercial Grade" Grounding system. 

For the How to do it please read this 96 page PDF from Polyphaser. 
Polyphaser Grounding Guide

After discussion with a couple of the Polyphaser Engineers who were also 
HAMS I purchsed all the goodies and we set about to create the ground 
system. It includes Whole House protection from Any wire that comes or 
goes from the house. 

This tower gets at least a dozen major hits per year. Since 1989 when the 
system was installed I have had Almost ZERO damage. The ONLY thing 
damaged was about 5 years ago the Whole House Protector on the Main 
Breaker box gave up its little life to save everything else in the house. I 
replaced it with a new one and all has been excellent prior to and since that 
time. 

The suggested Polyphaser Tower Grounding system looks a lot like that of 
the QST article from 2002 previously posted by one of our other posters. 
Radials 8 of them coming out from the tower. Polyphaser said they needed 
to be 1/3rd the length of the top antenna with 8 foot ground rods each 16 
feet along the radial. And of course one of the radials goes to the house 
where the Single Ground Window... big aluminum plate with many protectors 
and two ground rods to hold it in place is located. And the Perimeter ground 
progresses around the house from that location. In my case since I have 
three towers in a triangle shape they said single run from tower to tower with 
again 8 foot ground rod each 16 feet along the way. Then rather than the 8 
Radials from the single tower there are two starting outward from each of 
the other 2 shorter towers.  #2 tower 130 foot and #3 88 foot tall. On those 
towers are about 20 yagi antennas 5 rotors and many many antenna 
switching boxes. Mostly Ameritron RCS-8V many modified as phase 
controllers for stack yagis. 
The back yard has 100 8 foot long ground rods connect by 1200 feet or 3/8" 
ID copper tubing. Silver Soldered to the Ground Rods. 

So read and heed the PDF from Polyphaser. It works!! 

73
John k9uwa
John Goller, K9UWA & Jean Goller, N9PXF 
Antique Radio Restorations
k9...@arrl.net
Visit our Web Site at:
http://www.JohnJeanAntiqueRadio.com
4836 Ranch Road
Leo, IN 46765
USA
1-260-637-6426

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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Ground rods and concrete

[Doug Person]

Working on a fire line in a national forest I've seen 75 foot pine trees 
that had been completely exploded from a lightening strike. The sap 
reaches boiling point in an instant and burning parts of the tree gets 
distributed over the ground which leads to a fire crew being dispatched. 
Most wildland fires in these parts are due to lightening and ocurr 5-10 
times per year.


My own antenna system has never had a direct strike despite the high 
lightening activity here in the high Rockies (8200'+).  But several 
times surges have blown the fuses on my lightening protectors.  One near 
strike even got past that and destroyed my switch box - which was also 
fused.


K0DXV

On 4/18/2017 11:41 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:

Part of the mental imaging problem here is that our brains, in their
internal emotional response to orders of magnitude, simply cannot scale the
destructive power in lightning. Lightning is quite capable of melting the
leads to six properly done ground rods, AND at the same time blowing up a
perfectly done to code concrete base with reinforcing rods.

It just needs to be a big enough strike. I would guess (zero proof, just a
nagging inclination) that the odds of this are considerably reduced by the
presence of decently tall trees in the immediate vicinity (another lng
discussion).

Anyone who has seen a lightning strike turn three or four cubic yards of
ground dirt into glass in milliseconds, or seen a huge strike on a lake
surface boil water within a 10 foot radius has a good gut based lightning
strike power scaling device.

Every now and then I will get on YouTube and watch the cellphone videos of
the 2011 Japanese Tsunami to remind myself of the absolutely enormous
kinetic energy in a twenty foot high wall of water moving at 20 miles per
hour.

Nature can completely blast any one of us to smithereens if it wants to.
Thankfully that is nowhere near norm.

The question is how much moolah do you want to lay down, how many otherwise
good solutions do you want to shelve, for a rarity? Like how to invest,
that is a very personal decision. Good luck to all.

73, Guy K2AV

On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 11:32 PM, Doug Renwick  wrote:


That myth refuses to die. I have 5 concrete tower bases with ground rods
partially encased and never a worry about an exploding base.

Doug


-Original Message-

-NEVER- encase a ground rod in concrete ... especially a tower base.

As a retired 2-way radio tech, I'm aware of two towers that had to be
re-installed because of lightening strikes exploding their concrete bases.

73!

Ken - K0PP



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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Feedline Question

[Brian D]

What difference does oxidisation make on bare wire, ot tinning?? My feeders
are mainly enamelled copper which won't corrode. Does the enamel make a
significant difference? Hs anyone done the comparisons?




Guy Olinger K2AV  wrote:

> What you appear to refer to by "open wire line" is BARE wire with small
> spacers widely separated. Performance changes a lot if the "open wire
> line" is constructed with unstripped THHN. Particularly with surface
> tension on new THHN. Where hung on the level in a misting rain, I have
> seen a droplet per centimeter hanging on THHN insulation. Along with a
> rather large variation in Z as seen in the shack.


-- 
Brian Duffell   YarmEngland
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Re: [Elecraft] Feedline Question

[Ken Widelitz]

Ken Widelitz

On Apr 18, 2017 1:53 PM, "Guy Olinger K2AV"  wrote:

> Guy, K2AV wrote:
>
> > The constant wire diameter reduces the manufacturing setup and run costs
> > passed on to a cheep penny pinching ham population.
>
>
> Please excuse, that should be "The constant wire SPACING reduces the
> manufacturing setup and run costs.
>
> 73, Guy K2AV
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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Feedline Question

[Jim Brown]

On Tue,4/18/2017 11:26 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
What you appear to refer to by "open wire line" is BARE wire with 
small spacers widely separated. 


That's what Wes built to compare with the window line. Most practical 
implementations of open wire line use much wider spacing. The increased 
loss that Wes measured was due to water on the un-windowed parts of the 
window line -- in other words, a significant fraction of the dielectric 
between the conductors was water. That would not be true of widely 
spaced wire, insulated or not.


73, Jim

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Re: [Elecraft] Recording Line Out on the K3

[Jorge Diez - CX6VM]

Thanks Bob

I updated some weeks ago to 5.57, will update to 5.58 to have this "Tap 2"
option and test it

73,
Jorge
CX6VM/CW5W



2017-04-18 15:47 GMT-03:00 Bob Wilson, N6TV :

> You need K3 Beta firmware 5.58 or later.  It has a new feature:
>
> TX LINE OUT (MONITOR) LEVEL NOW ADJUSTABLE: In CONFIG:LIN OUT menu entry,
> tap '2'  (REV switch) to set the "T=" level (TX monitor). Tap '2' again to
> return to the RX LINE OUT setting.
>
>
> 73,
> Bob, N6TV
>
> On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 11:20 AM, Jorge Diez - CX6VM <
> cx6vm.jo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hello
>>
>> how do you control TX output for the recording?
>>
>> I am doing some tests, I have LIN OUT = 10 and is recording properly what
>> I RX on MAIN and SUB receivers.
>>
>> But my TX on the audio file, is to high compare with RX recording
>>
>> With LIN OUT = PHONES and MON = 10 is OK, but i dont like to have monitor
>> when doing SO2R or SO2V
>>
>> thanks,
>> Jorge
>> CX6VM/CW5W
>>
>


-- 
73,
Jorge
CX6VM/CW5W
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Re: [Elecraft] Recording Line Out on the K3

[Bob Wilson, N6TV]

You need K3 Beta firmware 5.58 or later.  It has a new feature:

TX LINE OUT (MONITOR) LEVEL NOW ADJUSTABLE: In CONFIG:LIN OUT menu entry,
tap '2'  (REV switch) to set the "T=" level (TX monitor). Tap '2' again to
return to the RX LINE OUT setting.


73,
Bob, N6TV

On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 11:20 AM, Jorge Diez - CX6VM 
wrote:

> Hello
>
> how do you control TX output for the recording?
>
> I am doing some tests, I have LIN OUT = 10 and is recording properly what
> I RX on MAIN and SUB receivers.
>
> But my TX on the audio file, is to high compare with RX recording
>
> With LIN OUT = PHONES and MON = 10 is OK, but i dont like to have monitor
> when doing SO2R or SO2V
>
> thanks,
> Jorge
> CX6VM/CW5W
>
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 & Heil HM-10 Dual

[Don Wilhelm]

John,

If you apply bias to a dynamic mic, the microphone element will be 
pulled off center by the bias voltage.  Much the same as putting a 
voltage across a speaker.
It *could* damage the element is the element wire is not large enough to 
handle the current, but with the mic element not in its neutral 
position, the mic may sound funny.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/18/2017 1:59 PM, j...@kk9a.com wrote:

If you use an electret with no bias you have no audio.  What happens if
you use a dynamic mic with bias on such as the HC4/HC5 element in the
subject line?

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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Feedline Question

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

Hi, Jim,

What you appear to refer to by "open wire line" is BARE wire with small
spacers widely separated. Performance changes a lot if the "open wire line"
is constructed with unstripped THHN. Particularly with surface tension on
new THHN. Where hung on the level in a misting rain, I have seen a droplet
per centimeter hanging on THHN insulation. Along with a rather large
variation in Z as seen in the shack.

Just one more reason to keep to bare wire. Bare wire sloughs rain.

I remember 300 ohm TV open wire line from bare #18 copperweld with molded
spacers every three inches.

The 300 ohm ladder line if run near a furnace or fireplace flue would "go
bad" on TV channel 2 as well as the UHF channels. There was also this
phenomenon called acid rain which could severely modify electrical
behavior, including etching the copper conductors.

With the PE formed 300 ohm line, the reduction in signal strength could be
blamed on "the rain", which was true in one sense. But since it got better
when it dried up, the PE supported balanced line would never get the blame.

73, Guy K2AV



On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 1:37 PM, Jim Brown 
wrote:

> On Tue,4/18/2017 10:10 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
>
>> Then there is the loss based on number of spacers and loss tangent of the
>> spacer material modifying the lesser air loss.
>>
>
> Below UHF, loss in transmission line is virtually all due to copper losses
> unless the dielectric material is wet or is otherwise made conductive.
>
> Quite a few years ago, N6WS did some excellent work showing that losses in
> window line are greatly increased when it is wet. His work was published in
> QST and later included in Antenna Compendium #6. It should be required
> reading for anyone considering window line. He measured four types of
> window line and some open wire line he built himself. Putting some numbers
> to it, Wes's measurements showed loss at 50 MHz increased from about 0.4
> dB/100 ft to more almost 6 dB/100 ft when it was wet. The open wire line
> showed no increased loss when wet.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] Recording Line Out on the K3

[Jorge Diez - CX6VM]

Hello

how do you control TX output for the recording?

I am doing some tests, I have LIN OUT = 10 and is recording properly what I
RX on MAIN and SUB receivers.

But my TX on the audio file, is to high compare with RX recording

With LIN OUT = PHONES and MON = 10 is OK, but i dont like to have monitor
when doing SO2R or SO2V

thanks,
Jorge
CX6VM/CW5W



2017-02-26 21:22 GMT-03:00 Dave Fugleberg :

> Thanks Bob, that was it (I was at MCU 5.50). Updated to latest and changed
> LIN OUT back to NOR, and it works exactly how I wanted.  I also found a
> powerpoint presentation out on the web that you did for CTU on the subject
> of recording contest audio - very informative.  Thanks!  Guess I need to
> make more of an effort to watch for firmware updates- this radio keeps
> getting better and better.
> 73 de W0ZF
>
> On Sun, Feb 26, 2017 at 12:33 AM, Bob Wilson, N6TV  wrote:
>
> > The problem of no TX Monitor audio on LINE OUT was fixed last July, in
> MCU
> > firmware 5.51, DSP 2.88.
> >
> > What version of firmware is your K3 running?
> >
> > 73,
> > Bob, N6TV
> >
> >
> > On Feb 25, 2017 7:50 PM, "Dave Fugleberg"  wrote:
> >
> > I have Line Out of the K3 connected to Line In on one of my soundcards.
> The
> > only way I've been able to record both sides of the QSO is to set the K3
> > Line Out to PHONES and turn up the MONitor to make it relatively equal in
> > volume to the received audio. This works, but it's annoying to have the
> > monitor that high, plus it means the Line Out level follows the AF Gain
> > control rather than being fixed level.
> >
> > Is there any way to get both transmit and receive audio mixed on Line Out
> > at a fixed (and relatively similar) level?
> >
> > 73 de W0ZF
> >
> >
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-- 
73,
Jorge
CX6VM/CW5W
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Re: [Elecraft] PTT help KX3/KXPA100

[Walter Underwood]

Use a stereo to mono splitter. One leg is the mic, the other is PTT.

https://observer.wunderwood.org/2015/08/16/yamaha-cm500-headset-with-ptt-on-elecraft-kx3/
 


wunder
Walter Underwood
wun...@wunderwood.org
http://observer.wunderwood.org/  (my blog)


> On Apr 18, 2017, at 10:53 AM, Michael Dinkelman  wrote:
> 
> Trying to get PTT working with a boom mic into the KX3.
> The microphone works fine using VOX into the microphone jack of the KX3.
> Of course, XMIT works too.
> 
> Trying to trigger PTT using the GPIO port of the KX3/KXPA100 accessory
> cable.
> 1) MICBTN configured to OFF  (tried PTT too)
> 2) ACC2 IO configured to LO=PTT
> 
> No PTT when using a mono plug into the GPIO port
> Gotta be something simple. What am I missing?
> 
> (I would try at the ACC2 port on the KX3 itself but no 2.5mm TRRS plugs
> at this point)
> 
> cheers
> mike, n7wa
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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Ground rods and concrete

[Jim Brown]

I'm with you, Wes. And I strongly agree with AB7E's excellent post.

The cited article does NOT say that "The Broadcast industry doesn’t seem 
to put their faith in Uber grounding." It DOES say that a Ufer ground 
done improperly can be a problem structurally. Notice also that the 
author "is national program manager for Copper Development Association 
Inc."  I see nothing in the way of engineering credentials. The author 
quotes extensive advice from "a power quality expert, Martin Conroy," 
again with no credentials given. That said, Conroy's advice is pretty 
good, and is mostly in agreement with good engineering practice. He did 
not say that the Ufer ground was a bad idea, but he did recommend 
supplementing it with deep rods around the tower, spaced radially out 
from the tower, and a buried ground ring, all robustly bonded together 
and to the tower.


If you read the new ARRL book on Grounding and Bonding (by N0AX), you 
will see a recommendation for a Ufer ground within the tower base, 
bonded to the tower, and to multiple ground rods around the tower base, 
spaced at least a rod length from the tower and from each other. If the 
tower is close to the building, it calls for bonding between the tower 
ground system and the building ground. If the tower is more than 60-100 
ft from the building, bonding is NOT recommended (or useful) because 
that bonding conductor (and the coax shield) have too much inductance to 
be a low impedance at RF.


I was one of several engineers who Ward consulted for peer review, and 
much of the book parallels my tutorial on Grounding and Bonding for ham 
radio.


73, Jim K9YC

On Tue,4/18/2017 10:35 AM, Wes Stewart wrote:

I don't know whether I would call that "extensive" damage but whatever...

I have my own photos of me standing next to this anchor, but since I 
can't send attachments, here is a link: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KVLY-TV_mast#/media/File:KVLYPylon.jpeg


I didn't see any extra grounding conductors.  BTW, my GPS said this 
was 1/4 mile from the base of the tower :-)


I'm not saying that extra grounding isn't required or is a bad idea, 
just that concrete encased steel isn't a bad idea.


Wes  N7WS

On 4/18/2017 8:01 AM, Rick Dettinger wrote:
Here is an article that described a Ufer ground failure that prompted 
the installation of an extensive external grounding system on a 1900’ 
BC tower.


http://www.radioworld.com/headlines/0045/proper-grounding-and-bonding-are-crucial/338510 



The Broadcast industry doesn’t seem to put their faith in Uber 
grounding.



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Re: [Elecraft] OT; Feedline question

[Clay Autery]

And your effort is most sincerely appreciated.  :)

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Clay Autery, KY5G

On 4/17/2017 10:31 PM, Al Lorona wrote:
> This obsessive exercise on my part illustrates that spacers don't make a 
> whole lot of difference, but they do make a difference. You may want to 
> include their effect or not.

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[Elecraft] K3 & Heil HM-10 Dual

[j...@kk9a.com]

If you use an electret with no bias you have no audio.  What happens if
you use a dynamic mic with bias on such as the HC4/HC5 element in the
subject line?

John KK9A

From: Don Wilhelm
Tue Apr 18 07:35:33 EDT 2017

"Rule of thumb" - if the microphone produces any audio at all with no
bias, it should be run with no bias - it is a dynamic type.
Electret elements will not produce any audio at all unless bias is
turned on.

73,
Don W3FPR

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[Elecraft] PTT help KX3/KXPA100

[Michael Dinkelman]

Trying to get PTT working with a boom mic into the KX3.
The microphone works fine using VOX into the microphone jack of the KX3.
Of course, XMIT works too.

Trying to trigger PTT using the GPIO port of the KX3/KXPA100 accessory
cable.
1) MICBTN configured to OFF  (tried PTT too)
2) ACC2 IO configured to LO=PTT

No PTT when using a mono plug into the GPIO port
Gotta be something simple. What am I missing?

(I would try at the ACC2 port on the KX3 itself but no 2.5mm TRRS plugs
at this point)

cheers
mike, n7wa
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Re: [Elecraft] Feedline Question

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

Guy, K2AV wrote:

> The constant wire diameter reduces the manufacturing setup and run costs
> passed on to a cheep penny pinching ham population.


Please excuse, that should be "The constant wire SPACING reduces the
manufacturing setup and run costs.

73, Guy K2AV
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[Elecraft] OT: A little theory, again.

[k...@juno.com]

 The Challenger Disaster demonstration:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Rwcbsn19c0 For those interested in this 
remarkable person's life, a lightweight biography: "Surely You're Joking Mr. 
Feynman!" (This is the actual title, not "Airplane" wordplay HI!)  72, Tim 
Colbert  K3HX
Message: 20
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 08:50:13 +0100
From: David Woolley 
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A little theory.
Message-ID: <86f694ad-8521-92f9-a1ca-9d15ca26b...@david-woolley.me.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed

I believe people are confusing Feynman and Sagan.  I think it was Carl 
Sagan who demonstrated the sloppy practices with combination locks and 
did the Challenger enquiry.

I did read some of Feynman's lectures, in high school.

-- 
David Woolley K2 06123

  tOn 17/04/17 02:32, k...@juno.com wrote:
> A long time admirer. For me, his "O ring and a glass of ice water" 
> demonstrationwhich kicked the air out of the NASA gas bags during 
> theChallenger Disaster inquiry was most memorable. A remarkable man. 72, Tim 
> Colbert  K3HX 

3 Foods To Avoid If You're Trying To Lose Deep Fat
3 Harmful Foods
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/58f6344d342d7344d688bst02duc
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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Ground rods and concrete

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

Part of the mental imaging problem here is that our brains, in their
internal emotional response to orders of magnitude, simply cannot scale the
destructive power in lightning. Lightning is quite capable of melting the
leads to six properly done ground rods, AND at the same time blowing up a
perfectly done to code concrete base with reinforcing rods.

It just needs to be a big enough strike. I would guess (zero proof, just a
nagging inclination) that the odds of this are considerably reduced by the
presence of decently tall trees in the immediate vicinity (another lng
discussion).

Anyone who has seen a lightning strike turn three or four cubic yards of
ground dirt into glass in milliseconds, or seen a huge strike on a lake
surface boil water within a 10 foot radius has a good gut based lightning
strike power scaling device.

Every now and then I will get on YouTube and watch the cellphone videos of
the 2011 Japanese Tsunami to remind myself of the absolutely enormous
kinetic energy in a twenty foot high wall of water moving at 20 miles per
hour.

Nature can completely blast any one of us to smithereens if it wants to.
Thankfully that is nowhere near norm.

The question is how much moolah do you want to lay down, how many otherwise
good solutions do you want to shelve, for a rarity? Like how to invest,
that is a very personal decision. Good luck to all.

73, Guy K2AV

On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 11:32 PM, Doug Renwick  wrote:

> That myth refuses to die. I have 5 concrete tower bases with ground rods
> partially encased and never a worry about an exploding base.
>
> Doug
>
>
> -Original Message-
>
> -NEVER- encase a ground rod in concrete ... especially a tower base.
>
> As a retired 2-way radio tech, I'm aware of two towers that had to be
> re-installed because of lightening strikes exploding their concrete bases.
>
> 73!
>
> Ken - K0PP
>
>
>
> ---
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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Feedline Question

[Jim Brown]

On Tue,4/18/2017 10:10 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:

Then there is the loss based on number of spacers and loss tangent of the 
spacer material modifying the lesser air loss.


Below UHF, loss in transmission line is virtually all due to copper 
losses unless the dielectric material is wet or is otherwise made 
conductive.


Quite a few years ago, N6WS did some excellent work showing that losses 
in window line are greatly increased when it is wet. His work was 
published in QST and later included in Antenna Compendium #6. It should 
be required reading for anyone considering window line. He measured four 
types of window line and some open wire line he built himself. Putting 
some numbers to it, Wes's measurements showed loss at 50 MHz increased 
from about 0.4 dB/100 ft to more almost 6 dB/100 ft when it was wet. The 
open wire line showed no increased loss when wet.


73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Ground rods and concrete

[Wes Stewart]

I don't know whether I would call that "extensive" damage but whatever...

I have my own photos of me standing next to this anchor, but since I can't send 
attachments, here is a link: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KVLY-TV_mast#/media/File:KVLYPylon.jpeg


I didn't see any extra grounding conductors.  BTW, my GPS said this was 1/4 mile 
from the base of the tower :-)


I'm not saying that extra grounding isn't required or is a bad idea, just that 
concrete encased steel isn't a bad idea.


Wes  N7WS

On 4/18/2017 8:01 AM, Rick Dettinger wrote:

Here is an article that described a Ufer ground failure that prompted the 
installation of an extensive external grounding system on a 1900’ BC tower.

http://www.radioworld.com/headlines/0045/proper-grounding-and-bonding-are-crucial/338510

The Broadcast industry doesn’t seem to put their faith in Uber grounding.

Rick
  

On Apr 18, 2017, at 12:25 AM, David Gilbert  wrote:


You also have many thousands of ham radio towers in northwest 7 land with either Ufer 
grounds or embedded tower bases.  You tell me how many of them have exploded during 
lightning strikes, and how that justifies the admonition to "never encase a ground 
rod in a tower base".

I once did an extensive internet search trying to find documented examples of 
concrete structures that had exploded from the inside out due to internal 
grounded conductors.  I couldn't find a single one.  Maybe you can find one, 
and if so I'd like to see the link.  I did find several instances of damage to 
concrete structures from lightning hits, but all of them had external damage 
from simple lightning strikes.  Most other damage was attributed to the fact 
that there wasn't any grounding at all ... i.e., an ungrounded structure on top 
of a concrete base.

 From a theoretical point of view, I could picture a discharge causing more 
damage from insufficient metal in the concrete rather than too much.  Spread 
the current ... minimize the heat buildup. If you want to argue that a single 
ground rod in a concrete base is a poor idea, OK ... I can buy that.  But these 
other blanket statements are garbage science.

Dave   AB7E



On 4/17/2017 10:45 PM, Rick Dettinger wrote:

A Uber ground was developed for dry areas during WW2.  In damp areas, the 
concrete can do just what happened in the concrete pole test.

Per Wikipedia article:
"A disadvantage of Ufer grounds is that the moisture in the concrete can flash 
into steam during a lightning strike or similar high energy fault condition. This 
can crack the surrounding concrete and damage the building foundation.”

We have plenty of damp soil in northwest 7 land.

Best,
Rick
  

On Apr 17, 2017, at 9:57 PM, David Gilbert  wrote:


That isn't even close to being the same condition and only serves to help 
perpetuate a stupid myth that refuses to die among the ill informed.  Anyone 
that doesn't understand that a Ufer ground is essentially multiple ground rods 
encased in concrete is indeed ill informed.  And anyone who doesn't understand 
the mechanisms and considerations behind a Ufer ground shouldn't be making 
contributions to threads like this.

Sorry for the ire displayed by me here, but this stupid topic keeps surfacing 
year after year in ham radio circles ... and specifically this forum ... 
without the least bit of thoughtful consideration behind it.  I'm tired of our 
hobby, supposedly a technically based one, being subject to definitively stated 
exhortations that are so demonstrably wrong.

Dave  AB7E



On 4/17/2017 9:09 PM, Rick Dettinger wrote:

I don’t think its a myth.  In the early 1970’s, the power company I worked for 
was testing out some hollow reinforced concrete poles.  There was considerable 
concern by the line workers that the poles might be more dangerous to work on 
than wooden poles, in the event of an accident.  To check this, we installed 
one of the poles in a sub station, and wrapped a 26KV 1200 amp feeder conductor 
around the pole.  When the station breaker was closed, the pole exploded 
dramatically, with a large fireball.  The results might have something to do 
with moisture content in the concrete.  The results convinced us to only use 
the poles on transmission lines that wouldn’t be worked hot, like we did with 
distribution lines.  Of course, the power levels are much higher in lightening 
strikes.  The conduction paths should similar from encapsulated ground rods in 
a tower base to Earth.

73,
Rick  K7MW




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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Ground rods and concrete

[Merv Schweigert via Elecraft]

Dave is correct,  just read a little on CEE or Ufer grounds,  perhaps 
the idea of exploding bases comes

from a statement about Ufer grounds,

A disadvantage of Ufer grounds is that the moisture in the concrete can 
flash into steam during a lightning strike or similar high energy fault 
condition. This can crack the surrounding concrete and damage the 
building foundation.^


^"Electrical Overstress/Electrostatic Discharge Symposium Volume 22" By 
ESD Association, Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers"



73 Merv K9FD/KH6



That isn't even close to being the same condition and only serves to 
help perpetuate a stupid myth that refuses to die among the ill 
informed.  Anyone that doesn't understand that a Ufer ground is 
essentially multiple ground rods encased in concrete is indeed ill 
informed.  And anyone who doesn't understand the mechanisms and 
considerations behind a Ufer ground shouldn't be making contributions 
to threads like this.


Sorry for the ire displayed by me here, but this stupid topic keeps 
surfacing year after year in ham radio circles ... and specifically 
this forum ... without the least bit of thoughtful consideration 
behind it.  I'm tired of our hobby, supposedly a technically based 
one, being subject to definitively stated exhortations that are so 
demonstrably wrong.


Dave  AB7E



On 4/17/2017 9:09 PM, Rick Dettinger wrote:
I don’t think its a myth.  In the early 1970’s, the power company I 
worked for was testing out some hollow reinforced concrete poles.  
There was considerable concern by the line workers that the poles 
might be more dangerous to work on than wooden poles, in the event of 
an accident.  To check this, we installed one of the poles in a sub 
station, and wrapped a 26KV 1200 amp feeder conductor around the 
pole.  When the station breaker was closed, the pole exploded 
dramatically, with a large fireball.  The results might have 
something to do with moisture content in the concrete.  The results 
convinced us to only use the poles on transmission lines that 
wouldn’t be worked hot, like we did with distribution lines.  Of 
course, the power levels are much higher in lightening strikes.  The 
conduction paths should similar from encapsulated ground rods in a 
tower base to Earth.


73,
Rick  K7MW




On Apr 17, 2017, at 8:32 PM, Doug Renwick  wrote:

That myth refuses to die. I have 5 concrete tower bases with ground 
rods

partially encased and never a worry about an exploding base.

Doug


-Original Message-

-NEVER- encase a ground rod in concrete ... especially a tower base.

As a retired 2-way radio tech, I'm aware of two towers that had to be
re-installed because of lightening strikes exploding their concrete 
bases.


73!

Ken - K0PP



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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Feedline Question

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

The effect of spacers is a very complex equation. One large modifier to the
end result is the number of spacers per unit of length. Then there is the
issue that the relative permittivity in between spacers reverts to air away
from the spacer. Then there is the area on either side of a spacer where
the effective permittivity blends from that of the spacer to that of air.

Then there is the loss based on number of spacers and loss tangent of the
spacer material modifying the lesser air loss.

Beyond that there is this peculiar ham inclination to use indoor insulated
electrical wire (THHN - rated dry indoors inside conduit only, 600 volts at
60 Hz) for QRO outdoor RF purposes. E.g.
https://www.73cnc.com/product_p/ls31.htm

Figure the wildly variant composition of PVC insulation at manufacture
followed by years of deteriorating UV outdoors.

In the end it is far easier to construct a feedline with a scientific guess
to obtain a target Z zero and then measure and adjust design to hit it on
the head and/or reduce its loss.

In practice there is little difference between 400 and 450 that is not
soaked up by all the tuner or circuitry finaglement we must engage in to
convert a wild range of Z to the narrow, narrow range actually tolerated by
our transistor finals.

Wireman for years has been selling various window lines we all
euphemistically call "450 ohm" which in fact vary between 360 and 440 ohm Z
zero. The reason for the variance is the spacing on all those lines is
identical regardless of the variation in wire diameter.

The constant wire diameter reduces the manufacturing setup and run costs
passed on to a cheep penny pinching ham population. [I include myself as
afflicted by this penny-pinching malaise. I just try to keep this nearly
irresistible inclination from dragging me into stupidity, as it has already
done on some number of occasions.]

73, Guy K2AV


On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 11:00 AM, k...@juno.com  wrote:

>
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 03:31:59 + (UTC)
> From: Al Lorona 
> To: "elecraft@mailman.qth.net" 
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT; Feedline question
> Message-ID: <852881305.2998918.1492486319...@mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> If instead of using the relative permittivity of air, 1.00059, for
> calculations of open-wire line, you use the effective permittivity
> including any spacers used to homebrew the line, this value will increase
> slightly.
>
>
>
> For instance, I am using spacers made of a material called "nylon 6,6 30%
> glass fiber-reinforced" which happens to have a relative permittivity of
> 3.9. This has the effect of increasing the effective permittivity between
> the wires from 1.00059 to 1.08656. Another way of saying this is that the
> velocity factor goes from 1 (for pure air) to 0.959, or about 96% with the
> spacers. The effect of this is to make the characteristic impedance of the
> line drop from around 480 to around 460 ohms.
>
> ( See http://www.emclab.cei.uec.ac.jp/xiao/Wire/index.html )
>
> This obsessive exercise on my part illustrates that spacers don't make a
> whole lot of difference, but they do make a difference. You may want to
> include their effect or not.
>
> Al  W6LX OM Al, Thank you for taking the time to share your results on
> this forum.
> "That which is not rigorous is meaningless."...Attributed to Blaise
> Pascal The results may not be significant or even of minor interest to
> many, but how would we know had this work not be done and presented here.
> 72, Tim Colbert  K3HX
> 
> "Better Than Adderall" Pill Now Legal For Your State Residents
> Health Tips Daily
> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/58f62a48922102a474f94st04duc
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Re: [Elecraft] P3/SVGA Digital terminal questions

[n6hz]

Hi Ken, 

1) That is correct.  The P3/SVGA does not actually decode any RF.  All that
is done inside the radio and you must choose between any of built-in modes,
such as FSK-D, PSK-D or CW.

2) The manual instructs you to turn off text display ONLY if you're going to
use the K3 or P3 Utility's data terminal mode.  Text decode on the radio
will need to be turned on (see #1 above). 

3) The P3/SVGA setup screen which is accessed via Ctrl-Alt-S on an attached
keyboard is used to set a variety of settings pertaining to the keyboard
aspect of the system.  For example, setting the foreground and background
colors for the text window on the SVGA screen.  Also setting up the text
transmit mode, i.e. send on Enter key press, space bar key press, etc.  
This controls when the text is sent to the radio to be transmitted, for
example, when the Enter key is pressed, or the space bar etc. 

If you need additional help or have any questions, please email me directly. 
My email is pauls at you know where dot com.  (elecraft)

Kindly, 

Paul N6HZ









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[Elecraft] KX3 serial programming (TQ issue)

[Devin Butterfield]

Hi Folks,

I am writing some code to control my KX3 and referring to Rev. G1, March 16, 
2017 of the programmer’s manual.

I have found that the RX command (turn PTT off) followed by TQ always returns 
TQ1. It seems that a huge delay of about 500ms is required before calling TQ to 
get the updated status.

Is there a better way to get immediate transmit status without delay?
—
Regards, Devin
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[Elecraft] OT: Feedline Question

[k...@juno.com]

Message: 4
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 03:31:59 + (UTC)
From: Al Lorona 
To: "elecraft@mailman.qth.net" 
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT; Feedline question
Message-ID: <852881305.2998918.1492486319...@mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

If instead of using the relative permittivity of air, 1.00059, for calculations 
of open-wire line, you use the effective permittivity including any spacers 
used to homebrew the line, this value will increase slightly. 



For instance, I am using spacers made of a material called "nylon 6,6 30% glass 
fiber-reinforced" which happens to have a relative permittivity of 3.9. This 
has the effect of increasing the effective permittivity between the wires from 
1.00059 to 1.08656. Another way of saying this is that the velocity factor goes 
from 1 (for pure air) to 0.959, or about 96% with the spacers. The effect of 
this is to make the characteristic impedance of the line drop from around 480 
to around 460 ohms. 

( See http://www.emclab.cei.uec.ac.jp/xiao/Wire/index.html )

This obsessive exercise on my part illustrates that spacers don't make a whole 
lot of difference, but they do make a difference. You may want to include their 
effect or not.

Al  W6LX OM Al, Thank you for taking the time to share your results on this 
forum.
"That which is not rigorous is meaningless."...Attributed to Blaise Pascal 
The results may not be significant or even of minor interest to many, but how 
would we know had this work not be done and presented here. 72, Tim Colbert  
K3HX

"Better Than Adderall" Pill Now Legal For Your State Residents
Health Tips Daily
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/58f62a48922102a474f94st04duc
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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Ground rods and concrete

[Rick Dettinger]

Here is an article that described a Ufer ground failure that prompted the 
installation of an extensive external grounding system on a 1900’ BC tower.

http://www.radioworld.com/headlines/0045/proper-grounding-and-bonding-are-crucial/338510

The Broadcast industry doesn’t seem to put their faith in Uber grounding.

Rick
 
> On Apr 18, 2017, at 12:25 AM, David Gilbert  wrote:
> 
> 
> You also have many thousands of ham radio towers in northwest 7 land with 
> either Ufer grounds or embedded tower bases.  You tell me how many of them 
> have exploded during lightning strikes, and how that justifies the admonition 
> to "never encase a ground rod in a tower base".
> 
> I once did an extensive internet search trying to find documented examples of 
> concrete structures that had exploded from the inside out due to internal 
> grounded conductors.  I couldn't find a single one.  Maybe you can find one, 
> and if so I'd like to see the link.  I did find several instances of damage 
> to concrete structures from lightning hits, but all of them had external 
> damage from simple lightning strikes.  Most other damage was attributed to 
> the fact that there wasn't any grounding at all ... i.e., an ungrounded 
> structure on top of a concrete base.
> 
> From a theoretical point of view, I could picture a discharge causing more 
> damage from insufficient metal in the concrete rather than too much.  Spread 
> the current ... minimize the heat buildup. If you want to argue that a single 
> ground rod in a concrete base is a poor idea, OK ... I can buy that.  But 
> these other blanket statements are garbage science.
> 
> Dave   AB7E
> 
> 
> 
> On 4/17/2017 10:45 PM, Rick Dettinger wrote:
>> A Uber ground was developed for dry areas during WW2.  In damp areas, the 
>> concrete can do just what happened in the concrete pole test.
>> 
>> Per Wikipedia article:
>> "A disadvantage of Ufer grounds is that the moisture in the concrete can 
>> flash into steam during a lightning strike or similar high energy fault 
>> condition. This can crack the surrounding concrete and damage the building 
>> foundation.”
>> 
>> We have plenty of damp soil in northwest 7 land.
>> 
>> Best,
>> Rick
>>  
>>> On Apr 17, 2017, at 9:57 PM, David Gilbert  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> That isn't even close to being the same condition and only serves to help 
>>> perpetuate a stupid myth that refuses to die among the ill informed.  
>>> Anyone that doesn't understand that a Ufer ground is essentially multiple 
>>> ground rods encased in concrete is indeed ill informed.  And anyone who 
>>> doesn't understand the mechanisms and considerations behind a Ufer ground 
>>> shouldn't be making contributions to threads like this.
>>> 
>>> Sorry for the ire displayed by me here, but this stupid topic keeps 
>>> surfacing year after year in ham radio circles ... and specifically this 
>>> forum ... without the least bit of thoughtful consideration behind it.  I'm 
>>> tired of our hobby, supposedly a technically based one, being subject to 
>>> definitively stated exhortations that are so demonstrably wrong.
>>> 
>>> Dave  AB7E
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 4/17/2017 9:09 PM, Rick Dettinger wrote:
 I don’t think its a myth.  In the early 1970’s, the power company I worked 
 for was testing out some hollow reinforced concrete poles.  There was 
 considerable concern by the line workers that the poles might be more 
 dangerous to work on than wooden poles, in the event of an accident.  To 
 check this, we installed one of the poles in a sub station, and wrapped a 
 26KV 1200 amp feeder conductor around the pole.  When the station breaker 
 was closed, the pole exploded dramatically, with a large fireball.  The 
 results might have something to do with moisture content in the concrete.  
 The results convinced us to only use the poles on transmission lines that 
 wouldn’t be worked hot, like we did with distribution lines.  Of course, 
 the power levels are much higher in lightening strikes.  The conduction 
 paths should similar from encapsulated ground rods in a tower base to 
 Earth.
 
 73,
 Rick  K7MW
 
 
 
> On Apr 17, 2017, at 8:32 PM, Doug Renwick  wrote:
> 
> That myth refuses to die. I have 5 concrete tower bases with ground rods
> partially encased and never a worry about an exploding base.
> 
> Doug
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> 
> -NEVER- encase a ground rod in concrete ... especially a tower base.
> 
> As a retired 2-way radio tech, I'm aware of two towers that had to be
> re-installed because of lightening strikes exploding their concrete bases.
> 
> 73!
> 
> Ken - K0PP
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> 
> 

Re: [Elecraft] OT: Ground rods and concrete

[Rick Dettinger]

The Electric Utility Industry spends a lot of money bypassing steel reinforced 
concrete tower legs with copper conductor to a ground system for lightening 
protection.

73, Rick  K7MW

 
> On Apr 18, 2017, at 7:16 AM, JOE  wrote:
> 
> Well, in my cellular experience of watching many tower and monopole 
> installations, tower grounds going thru concrete was generally not allowed.  
> Several reasons that I have been told are moisture in the concrete can turn 
> to steam during a direct lightning hit, damaging the concrete base material.  
> Ground conductors can be damaged by chemical reaction from contact with the 
> concrete and moisture.  Lastly, you cannot do routine inspections on ground 
> conductors that pass thru the tower base.
> 
> Tower grounding specifications are detailed in Motorola R56 Standards and 
> Guidelines Manual.  This shows the ground conductors outside the concrete 
> tower base.
> 
> Joe
> 
> On 4/18/2017 8:05 AM, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote:
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 21:32:02 -0600
>> From: "Doug Renwick"
>> To: "'Elecraft Reflector'"
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: Ground rods and concrete
>> Message-ID: <191B5755E4654B65951378A9EF28A8F1@DOUG8PC>
>> Content-Type: text/plain;charset="us-ascii"
>> 
>> That myth refuses to die. I have 5 concrete tower bases with ground rods
>> partially encased and never a worry about an exploding base.
>> 
>> Doug
> 
> 
> __
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[Elecraft] OT: Ground rods and concrete

[JOE]

Well, in my cellular experience of watching many tower and monopole 
installations, tower grounds going thru concrete was generally not 
allowed.  Several reasons that I have been told are moisture in the 
concrete can turn to steam during a direct lightning hit, damaging the 
concrete base material.  Ground conductors can be damaged by chemical 
reaction from contact with the concrete and moisture.  Lastly, you 
cannot do routine inspections on ground conductors that pass thru the 
tower base.


Tower grounding specifications are detailed in Motorola R56 Standards 
and Guidelines Manual.  This shows the ground conductors outside the 
concrete tower base.


Joe

On 4/18/2017 8:05 AM, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote:

Message: 3
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 21:32:02 -0600
From: "Doug Renwick"
To: "'Elecraft Reflector'"
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: Ground rods and concrete
Message-ID: <191B5755E4654B65951378A9EF28A8F1@DOUG8PC>
Content-Type: text/plain;   charset="us-ascii"

That myth refuses to die. I have 5 concrete tower bases with ground rods
partially encased and never a worry about an exploding base.

Doug



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Re: [Elecraft] K3 & Heil HM-10 Dual

[Bill Breeden]

Steve,

Here are the settings I use with various Heil elements.

I am currently using a Heil Proset K2/K3 with my desk K3 and a Elecraft 
MH2 with my "portable" K3, but have used all these combinations with 
success at one time or another.


Your mileage may vary.

73,

Bill - NA5DX


Elecraft K3 Microphone and Compression Settings 




















Heil ProSet (HC-5 element)  








Level   Bias
Mic CMP 
TX Equalization 
FP.HOff 12  24  W4TV









Heil ProSet Plus (DX setting) (HC-4 element)








Level   Bias
Mic CMP 
TX Equalization 
FP.HOff 22  24  Flat









Heil ProSet Plus (Full Range setting) (HC-5 element)








Level   Bias
Mic CMP 
TX Equalization 
FP.HOff 12  24  W4TV









Heil ProSet K2/K3 (iC element) K3 5760  








Level   Bias
Mic CMP 
TX Equalization 
FP.LOn  10  22  W4TV









Elecraft MH2 (iC element) K3 8879   








Level   Bias
Mic CMP 
TX Equalization 
FP.LOn  12  20  W4TV



























Transmit Equalizier Settings








TX EQ # 1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8
TX EQ Band  50  100 200 400 800 160024003200








Heil Typical-16 -14 -4  0   +2  +4  +8  +12








Heil Contest /DX-16 -16 -10 -6  +4  +6  +8  
+12








K9YC-16 -16 -16 -6  0   +3  +5  +6








W4TV-16 -16 -6  0   0   +3  +5  +6



On 4/17/2017 10:14 PM, Steve Wilson via Elecraft wrote:

Hi all,
I setup a K3, that my godfather is borrowing, while his Kenwood is off the air. 
I reviewed the webpage on the Heil Sound website here: 
https://heilsound.com/heil-amateur-radio/support/dsp-settings/all-things-elecraft/
  Unfortunately, the page refers to the mic with regard to the front panel 
setting, but does not specifically refer to the mic model with respect to the 
mic gain and mic bias settings. I sent an email to Heil Sound suggesting that 
the missing detail be added for this particular mic. But thought I'd ask here, 
in case anyone knew the answer. I deduced that the setting should be Front 
Panel, Low, No Bias, but am not 100% sure about that!
Here's the strange part about this story. I did have a QSO with a station in 
North Dakota after setting up the rig, so we knew all was working. We shut off 
the rig and I left for home. Later in the evening, my godfather turned the K3 
on and tried to transmit, but noticed that he wasn't getting any moving bars 
with the transmit audio. I walked him through putting the K3 into test mode, 
turning down the mic gain, and then turning up the mic gain while he was 
transmitting to find the optimum level, but we couldn't get the meter to show 
any response to the audio. I did the same procedure on my own K3 to make sure I 
was talking him through the right steps and it worked fine on mine. He did try 
a Heil headset with the same results. I plan to try and get up to visit again 
this weekend and bring a hand mic with me to try and make sure that it is 
definitely the K3 and not the mic.
So unless I'm missing something 

Re: [Elecraft] OT: Groond rods and concrete

[Ted Edwards W3TB]

The first time I put up a tower I just put the ground rods down from the
bottom of the hole and brought the connecting wire up through the
concrete.  No problems happened, but maybe I just got lucky.  Nobody had
ever said anything to me to the contrary.

For radio grounding to earth, I use 1/2 inch copper pipe 10 foot length and
get it in the ground hydrolically with a fitting that lets me put the
garden hose to the end and shoot water from the other end to make the
hole.  Works really well.  And I have wondered whether to connect another
10 feet and go deeper.  I have 5 of those connected together in common.

On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 8:25 PM, Walter Underwood 
wrote:

> House grounds and tower grounds are designed for different hazards (and
> risks, which are hazards with dollars).
>
> Direct lighting strikes on houses are less common than power line surges.
> So house grounds are designed for surges, which can be large. A direct
> strike on a stucco house is going to vaporize the wire mesh and blow the
> stucco off in several places. Ground rods won’t help that much.
>
> A tower is much more likely to get a direct strike. The grounding system
> on a tower is designed to survive a feeder strike and reduce the
> destruction (risk) of a direct strike. Better to melt the coax than burn
> down the transmitter shack.
>
> When I was in high school in Indianapolis, my next door neighbor was a ham
> with a tower. He had worked on lighting arrestors at GE. He explained that
> a lighting pulse had so much high-frequency energy that it more followed
> than conducted along a ground strap. It jumps from the strap to the
> building and back about every two feet. Lightning systems are a hint, not a
> directive. Nobody tells lightning what to do.
>
> I like what I do, but working on lighting arrestors? That would be COOL.
>
> wunder
> K6WRU
> Walter Underwood
> CM87wj
> http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)
>
> > On Apr 17, 2017, at 4:16 PM, Wes Stewart  wrote:
> >
> > Clearly, you have something in mind different from me.
> >
> > https://www.tessco.com/products/displayProductInfo.do?sku=12952
> >
> > Tell me how you avoid the exploding concrete myth using something like
> this?
> >
> > Or with a bolted base plate:
> >
> > https://www.cableandwireshop.com/rohn-45g-tower-concrete-
> base-plate-r-bpc45g.html
> >
> > Read the last sentence.
> >
> >
> > On 4/17/2017 3:25 PM, Bill Johnson wrote:
> >> No, unless adequate steps are taken to assure a large ground grid is
> made.  This requires more than just a slab.
> >>
> >> 73,
> >> Bill
> >> K9YEQ
> >>
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of
> Wes Stewart
> >> Sent: Monday, April 17, 2017 5:17 PM
> >> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> >> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: Groond rods and concrete
> >>
> >> Isn't the tower base pretty much a ground rod?
> >>
> >> On 4/17/2017 2:16 PM, Rose wrote:
> >>> -NEVER- encase a ground rod in concrete ... especially a tower base.
> >>>
> >>> As a retired 2-way radio tech, I'm aware of two towers that had to be
> >>> re-installed because of lightening strikes exploding their concrete
> bases.
> >>>
> >>> 73!
> >>>
> >>> Ken - K0PP
> >>>
> >> __
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> >>
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> Message delivered to k9...@live.com
> >>
> >
> > __
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>
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>



-- 
73 de Ted Edwards, W3TB and GØPWW

and thinking about operating CW:
"Do today what others won't,
so you can do tomorrow what others can't."
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Re: [Elecraft] Low power out, ERR TXG when trying to calibrate power

[Don Wilhelm]

Rob,

I would try running the TX Gain Calibration with a higher voltage power 
source - at least 13.8 volts.


If it still fails, contact Elecraft support.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/18/2017 5:55 AM, M0VFC wrote:

Hi folks,

My KX3 seems to have developed a low output power problem.

All used to be fine, but over the weekend I noticed it now only gives ~6W
maximum on CW despite a good SWR indication. I have reproduced this into a
dummy load (1.1:1 SWR) and checked DC input voltage (11.2V key down,
external 3S LiPo).

Additionally, if I engage the ATU, it no longer seems able to find a good
match, even into a dummy load. Bypassing the ATU results in an indicated
1.1:1 SWR, and removing the ATU module does not fix the low output power
problem.

If I run the manual TX power calibration (set power to 6W and hold TUNE),
the VFO B display reaches about 5.4W then stays there. Tapping TX to stop
the procedure results in ERR TXG being shown. Doing the same at 4W results
in maximum output power of about 3.2W, from memory, and a similar ERR TXG
error.

This is true on all HF bands.


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 & Heil HM-10 Dual

[Don Wilhelm]

"Rule of thumb" - if the microphone produces any audio at all with no 
bias, it should be run with no bias - it is a dynamic type.
Electret elements will not produce any audio at all unless bias is 
turned on.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/18/2017 12:27 AM, Matt Zilmer wrote:
Thanks, Jim.  The gain setting just has to be set to HIGH.  Bias off.  I 
checked my settings here for the first time in almost seven years.


You got me on that. I was thinking of the CM500 headset.  Bah.

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Re: [Elecraft] A little theory.

[John Marvin]

Sorry, it is you are confusing the two. It was Feynman on both counts. 
Sagan would have been 8 years old when the Manhattan Project was 
started. Feynman was also on the Rogers Commission that was tasked with 
investigating the Challenger disaster (Carl Sagan was not involved).


73,

John
AC0ZG

On 4/18/2017 1:50 AM, David Woolley wrote:
I believe people are confusing Feynman and Sagan.  I think it was Carl 
Sagan who demonstrated the sloppy practices with combination locks and 
did the Challenger enquiry.


I did read some of Feynman's lectures, in high school.



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[Elecraft] Low power out, ERR TXG when trying to calibrate power

[M0VFC]

Hi folks,

My KX3 seems to have developed a low output power problem. 

All used to be fine, but over the weekend I noticed it now only gives ~6W
maximum on CW despite a good SWR indication. I have reproduced this into a
dummy load (1.1:1 SWR) and checked DC input voltage (11.2V key down,
external 3S LiPo).

Additionally, if I engage the ATU, it no longer seems able to find a good
match, even into a dummy load. Bypassing the ATU results in an indicated
1.1:1 SWR, and removing the ATU module does not fix the low output power
problem.

If I run the manual TX power calibration (set power to 6W and hold TUNE),
the VFO B display reaches about 5.4W then stays there. Tapping TX to stop
the procedure results in ERR TXG being shown. Doing the same at 4W results
in maximum output power of about 3.2W, from memory, and a similar ERR TXG
error.

This is true on all HF bands.

Any thoughts on where to look?

Many thanks,
Rob, M0VFC



--
View this message in context: 
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Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: [Elecraft] A little theory.

[David Woolley]

I believe people are confusing Feynman and Sagan.  I think it was Carl 
Sagan who demonstrated the sloppy practices with combination locks and 
did the Challenger enquiry.


I did read some of Feynman's lectures, in high school.

--
David Woolley K2 06123

 tOn 17/04/17 02:32, k...@juno.com wrote:

A long time admirer. For me, his "O ring and a glass of ice water" 
demonstrationwhich kicked the air out of the NASA gas bags during theChallenger Disaster 
inquiry was most memorable. A remarkable man. 72, Tim Colbert  K3HX


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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Ground rods and concrete

[David Gilbert]

You also have many thousands of ham radio towers in northwest 7 land 
with either Ufer grounds or embedded tower bases.  You tell me how many 
of them have exploded during lightning strikes, and how that justifies 
the admonition to "never encase a ground rod in a tower base".


I once did an extensive internet search trying to find documented 
examples of concrete structures that had exploded from the inside out 
due to internal grounded conductors.  I couldn't find a single one.  
Maybe you can find one, and if so I'd like to see the link.  I did find 
several instances of damage to concrete structures from lightning hits, 
but all of them had external damage from simple lightning strikes.  Most 
other damage was attributed to the fact that there wasn't any grounding 
at all ... i.e., an ungrounded structure on top of a concrete base.


From a theoretical point of view, I could picture a discharge causing 
more damage from insufficient metal in the concrete rather than too 
much.  Spread the current ... minimize the heat buildup. If you want to 
argue that a single ground rod in a concrete base is a poor idea, OK ... 
I can buy that.  But these other blanket statements are garbage science.


Dave   AB7E



On 4/17/2017 10:45 PM, Rick Dettinger wrote:

A Uber ground was developed for dry areas during WW2.  In damp areas, the 
concrete can do just what happened in the concrete pole test.

Per Wikipedia article:
"A disadvantage of Ufer grounds is that the moisture in the concrete can flash 
into steam during a lightning strike or similar high energy fault condition. This 
can crack the surrounding concrete and damage the building foundation.”

We have plenty of damp soil in northwest 7 land.

Best,
Rick
  

On Apr 17, 2017, at 9:57 PM, David Gilbert  wrote:


That isn't even close to being the same condition and only serves to help 
perpetuate a stupid myth that refuses to die among the ill informed.  Anyone 
that doesn't understand that a Ufer ground is essentially multiple ground rods 
encased in concrete is indeed ill informed.  And anyone who doesn't understand 
the mechanisms and considerations behind a Ufer ground shouldn't be making 
contributions to threads like this.

Sorry for the ire displayed by me here, but this stupid topic keeps surfacing 
year after year in ham radio circles ... and specifically this forum ... 
without the least bit of thoughtful consideration behind it.  I'm tired of our 
hobby, supposedly a technically based one, being subject to definitively stated 
exhortations that are so demonstrably wrong.

Dave  AB7E



On 4/17/2017 9:09 PM, Rick Dettinger wrote:

I don’t think its a myth.  In the early 1970’s, the power company I worked for 
was testing out some hollow reinforced concrete poles.  There was considerable 
concern by the line workers that the poles might be more dangerous to work on 
than wooden poles, in the event of an accident.  To check this, we installed 
one of the poles in a sub station, and wrapped a 26KV 1200 amp feeder conductor 
around the pole.  When the station breaker was closed, the pole exploded 
dramatically, with a large fireball.  The results might have something to do 
with moisture content in the concrete.  The results convinced us to only use 
the poles on transmission lines that wouldn’t be worked hot, like we did with 
distribution lines.  Of course, the power levels are much higher in lightening 
strikes.  The conduction paths should similar from encapsulated ground rods in 
a tower base to Earth.

73,
Rick  K7MW




On Apr 17, 2017, at 8:32 PM, Doug Renwick  wrote:

That myth refuses to die. I have 5 concrete tower bases with ground rods
partially encased and never a worry about an exploding base.

Doug


-Original Message-

-NEVER- encase a ground rod in concrete ... especially a tower base.

As a retired 2-way radio tech, I'm aware of two towers that had to be
re-installed because of lightening strikes exploding their concrete bases.

73!

Ken - K0PP



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