Re: [Elecraft] Really OT: Inside-the-vehicle HF antennas (possible bonus points)

[Jim Rhodes]

OK, get a big fiberglass spoiler on the back and cram as much wire as you
can in it. The feed it against the body via An autotuner on the inside of
the trunk lid. After showing her the drawing of that you shouldn't have too
much trouble talking her into a screwdriver antenna.

Jim Rhodes

On Jul 16, 2017 9:16 PM, "Matthew Cook"  wrote:

> Mount your iPad/Tablet to the dash, install 3G/4G internet capable router
> (internal antennas) into the car, Heil Headset & RR1274 then remote into
> your K3/KPA500/KAT500 remote station at home.   Works rather nicely.
>
> Otherwise ruggedised whip tuner under the bonnet (err hood) with a thin
> discrete stainless steel whip mounted on the front of the car there
> somewhere.
>
> 73
>
> Matthew
> VK5ZM
>
> On 16 July 2017 at 10:23, Wayne Burdick  wrote:
>
> > I’m dealing with one of the last unsolved problems in amateur radio: how
> > to operate HF mobile without an antenna. At least not one that, according
> > to some vehicle co-owners/spouses, would defile your new sedan.
> >
> > For 10 bonus points that have only philosophical value, your challenge is
> > to create an invisible mobile antenna and actually make a QSO on it. For
> > practical purposes (i.e., not frying the car or passengers) let’s say the
> > maximum power level is 10 watts. The bands of interest are 40-10 meters.
> >
> > Here are some ideas I’m considering:
> >
> > - mag loop in the rear window
> > - thin wire loop on a roof rack
> > - gamma match to the entire roof
> > - surface acoustic waves
> > - prayer
> >
> > Other ideas?
> >
> > Yes, I know this violates the laws of physics and bioethics. And I fully
> > expect the car to generate debilitating levels of RFI. But isn’t this the
> > least you’d expect from an unsolved problem?
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
> >
> > Wayne
> > N6KR
> >
> >
> > __
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Re: [Elecraft] Really OT: Inside-the-vehicle HF antennas (possible bonus points)

[Merv Schweigert via Elecraft]

Fred your close to CA and also perhaps you were mistaken for a Russian.
You know how it is these days.

Would tell a story but its too long and OT how I was mistaken for 
Russian spy in

Shanghai in 1990,  taxi driver got the idea and ratted me out. Carrying a
telegraph key and papers to operate at BY4AA.

73 Merv K9FD/KH6

Ummm ... no.  Nor is the wife going to buy it on a family car. 
Operating with my K2+Alexloop on a small hill in a local park once, I 
was approached by two Sheriff's Officers, one had his gun[or Taser] 
out. Someone had reported a spy, or CIA agent, onthe hill and they 
wanted to to see my ID.  Strange how a small radio, a mag loop 
antenna, and an old guy who is obviously way past his spy-hood years 
can conjure up so much suspicion in the ordinary folk.


73,

Fred ("Skip") K6DGW
Sparks NV USA
Washoe County DM09dn

On 7/19/2017 4:44 PM, rboutell wrote:


So I guess this wouldn't qualify as stealthy :)

-
73, Russ - W9RB



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Re: [Elecraft] Really OT: Inside-the-vehicle HF antennas (possible bonus points)

[Fred Jensen]

Ummm ... no.  Nor is the wife going to buy it on a family car.  
Operating with my K2+Alexloop on a small hill in a local park once, I 
was approached by two Sheriff's Officers, one had his gun[or Taser] out. 
Someone had reported a spy, or CIA agent, onthe hill and they wanted to 
to see my ID.  Strange how a small radio, a mag loop antenna, and an old 
guy who is obviously way past his spy-hood years can conjure up so much 
suspicion in the ordinary folk.


73,

Fred ("Skip") K6DGW
Sparks NV USA
Washoe County DM09dn

On 7/19/2017 4:44 PM, rboutell wrote:


So I guess this wouldn't qualify as stealthy :)

-
73, Russ - W9RB



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Re: [Elecraft] Really OT: Inside-the-vehicle HF antennas (possible bonus points)

[rboutell]

 
So I guess this wouldn't qualify as stealthy :)



-
73, Russ - W9RB
--
View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Really-OT-Inside-the-vehicle-HF-antennas-possible-bonus-points-tp7632459p7632578.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: [Elecraft] Really OT: Inside-the-vehicle HF antennas (possible bonus points)

[Lyle Johnson]

In my Model S all AM/FM broadcast reception antennas are hidden in the 
driver-side mirror housing.


I suggest you simply make a physically small antenna that can fit under 
some plastic part of your car.   Wayne has a Prius so it is mostly 
plastic bodywork providing lots of opportunities.


Then insert the small antenna into a very low loss, extremely high-k 
dielectric to make the physically small antenna electrically resonant at 
the desired frequency.  If it works, patent the dielectric material!


You can then encase a typical satellite TV dish in the same dielectric 
and have a very directional HF beam and get around all the HOA problems 
for those who operate radio while NOT in their car :-)


Air as a dielectric is so 20th century...

73,

Lyle KK7P

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Re: [Elecraft] Really OT: Inside-the-vehicle HF antennas (possible bonus points)

[Peter Eijlander (PA0PJE)]

Not only FM, Ron. In my car it's for both FM, MW and LW
The lines are formed in a strange way, not just horizontal parallel 
wires but here and there are openings. It works well on all three bands, 
that is until the last MW and LW transmitters are turned off here in 
Europe and FM will be left alone... FM is largely swapped for DAB+ at 
the moment.


72,
Peter

Op 2017-07-16 om 19:04 schreef Ron D'Eau Claire:

I thought that was how FM antennas were implemented in some cars already, but 
without using resistance wire.

73, Ron AC7AC

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Re: [Elecraft] Really OT: Inside-the-vehicle HF antennas (possible bonus points)

[Matthew Cook]

Mount your iPad/Tablet to the dash, install 3G/4G internet capable router
(internal antennas) into the car, Heil Headset & RR1274 then remote into
your K3/KPA500/KAT500 remote station at home.   Works rather nicely.

Otherwise ruggedised whip tuner under the bonnet (err hood) with a thin
discrete stainless steel whip mounted on the front of the car there
somewhere.

73

Matthew
VK5ZM

On 16 July 2017 at 10:23, Wayne Burdick  wrote:

> I’m dealing with one of the last unsolved problems in amateur radio: how
> to operate HF mobile without an antenna. At least not one that, according
> to some vehicle co-owners/spouses, would defile your new sedan.
>
> For 10 bonus points that have only philosophical value, your challenge is
> to create an invisible mobile antenna and actually make a QSO on it. For
> practical purposes (i.e., not frying the car or passengers) let’s say the
> maximum power level is 10 watts. The bands of interest are 40-10 meters.
>
> Here are some ideas I’m considering:
>
> - mag loop in the rear window
> - thin wire loop on a roof rack
> - gamma match to the entire roof
> - surface acoustic waves
> - prayer
>
> Other ideas?
>
> Yes, I know this violates the laws of physics and bioethics. And I fully
> expect the car to generate debilitating levels of RFI. But isn’t this the
> least you’d expect from an unsolved problem?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] Really OT: Inside-the-vehicle HF antennas (possible bonus points)

[Phil Kane]

On 7/16/2017 10:37 AM, Fred Jensen wrote:

> The Southern Pacific RR [now Union Pacific] used 160 MHz DDRR antennas
> on some of their signalling equipment. Generally on top of a big steel
> box beside the track(s).  Had a base plate bolted to the box, and a
> single 25-30 cm element, parallel to the top of the box, spaced about
> 6-7 cm above it.  The whole antenna looked like it was cast in one
> piece. 

Not only the SP, but many other roads as well.  That antenna - the
Excalibur by Sinclair - was one of the most popular locomotive antennas
and is also used on signal equipment boxes because it is almost
indestructible.  It was originally made to go through a bus wash rack
undamaged!  We used them on a series of trucks because of their
ruggedness.  They are still being made but they aren't cheap - the VHF
version is in the $150 class.
Depending on the manufacturer, there are two versions, the "exposed"
solid-metal version and one in a fiberglass radome.

> For 20 m, it would be significantly larger, but might be disguised
> as, or in, a roof rack.  A lot of folks drive around with stuff piled
> on their cars these days.

We installed a 30-40 MHz version in a fiberglass radome on one truck -
it looked like an inverted canoe!  I would put a VHF version on the
family car but the wife settled for a mag-mount.  I'm not sure how it
would work with a 2m/440 rig - there's a separate 450 MHz-band version.

-- 
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100   s/n 5402

>From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
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Re: [Elecraft] Really OT: Inside-the-vehicle HF antennas (possible bonus points)

[Phil Kane]

On 7/15/2017 8:37 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:

> Seems I recall a DDRR antenna which was a low profile, roof mountable
> antenna. 

Are you referring to what we called the "towel rack" antenna which was
originally made for Air Rescue Helicopters in the Vietnam-War era?  They
were replaced by the "defroster antennas".



73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100   s/n 5402

>From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
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Re: [Elecraft] Really OT: Inside-the-vehicle HF antennas (possible bonus points)

[Phil Kane]

On 7/15/2017 8:18 PM, Randy Bright wrote:

> Would there be a way to repurpose the defrost wiring that is sandwiched
> between the layers of glass in some back windows and use that thin wire for
> your antenna?

Has been done for sneaky mobile DF systems decades ago.  We called then
"defroster antennas" but only got L/R indications.  Had to turn the
whole car to get real bearings!

-- 
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100   s/n 5402

>From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
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Re: [Elecraft] Really OT: Inside-the-vehicle HF antennas (possible bonus points)

[Phil Kane]

On 7/15/2017 7:53 PM, Michael Chowning wrote:

> Now all you have to do, is get permission to rack mount your radio in place 
> of the passenger seat.
> Seriously, here is a link from Ohio State Unversity on experimental antennas 
> in clothes of the military.

Seriously -- a certain three-letter agency that I am a survivor of did
the roof-install and rack-install in certain vehicles in the 1970s and
'80s.  Some of the early ones were done in my own garage!  No longer done!


73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100   s/n 5402

>From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
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Re: [Elecraft] Really OT: Inside-the-vehicle HF antennas (possible bonus points)

[Barry Baines]

Wayne:

> On Jul 15, 2017, at 8:53 PM, Wayne Burdick  wrote:
> 
> I’m dealing with one of the last unsolved problems in amateur radio: how to 
> operate HF mobile without an antenna. At least not one that, according to 
> some vehicle co-owners/spouses, would defile your new sedan.
> 
> For 10 bonus points that have only philosophical value, your challenge is to 
> create an invisible mobile antenna and actually make a QSO on it. For 
> practical purposes (i.e., not frying the car or passengers) let’s say the 
> maximum power level is 10 watts. The bands of interest are 40-10 meters.


If the goal is to operate HF while mobile “without an antenna”, why not take an 
entirely different approach using existing Elecraft product offerings that 
entirely avoids the issue of trying to mount antennas on vehicles that are 
becoming less and less “amateur friendly?”

My suggestion is to operate an Elecraft base station remotely while mobile 
using the K3/0-Mini and RemoteRig 1258MKII in the vehicle tethered to an iPhone 
or other Smartphone.  The K3/0-Mini operates superbly with RemoteRig to connect 
to base stations.  The Smartphone acts as a “Wifi hotspot” in the vehicle;  use 
the WiFi option of RemoteRig 1258MKII to connect to the smartphone or use a 
separate “WAP” (Wireless Access Point) such as the TPLink TL-WR802N ($20.00) 
that is tied to the RemoteRig 1258MKII via an ethernet connection between the 
two.

Depending upon the types of interfaces incorporated at the base station, one 
can also control the rotor and KPA500 through the web browser of the smartphone 
if using the RemoteRig RC-1216H to interface to each device at the home station 
(one RC-1216H for each device). 

The ability to operate amateur radio through internet links while mobile has 
been well established.  For example, in the case of DMR (Digital Mobile Radio) 
offered by various VHF and UHF repeater organizations, I’ve had excellent 
performance using the RFShark “openSPOT” tied through a TL-802N WAP and 
connected to the internet via my iPhone 7 “hotspot”.   The openSPOT acts as a 
mini-repeater in the vehicle with RF from a radio (such as a HT)  being sent 
through the internet;  likewise, packets received from the internet are 
broadcast by the openSPOT to the HT in the vehicle. I’ve been able to 
communicate through two different DMR networks (DMR+ and Brandmeister) while 
mobile, allowing me to utilize DMR repeater networks while out-of-range of DMR 
repeaters. This has allowed me to communicate with friends in New England and 
North Florida/South Georgia when I’m not in repeater coverage within those 
areas. 

In essence, the K3/0-Mini coupled to a RemoteRig 1258MKII and linked to a 
smartphone via Wifi is taking a similar approach, but with the interface 
between the K3/0-Mini being hardwired to the RemoteRig 1258MKII.  The RemoteRig 
can be placed under a car seat and the K3/0-Mini can be placed anywhere where 
the operator can access it just as with a mobile rig control head.  If a WAP is 
used, it can also be placed beneath the seat.  

Are there downsides to  operating HF via internet back to the home station (or 
some other locale)?  Providing Grid Squares based upon vehicle location is out 
since the location of the transmitter is what determines which grid square one 
is operating from, and not the location of operator.  Internet quality through 
cellular networks can vary while mobile,  but overall the throughput of the 
K3/0-Mini using audio CODECs offered by the RemoteRig equipment that require 
less bandwidth should still work well.  

Food for thought,

Barry Baines, WD4ASW
(Currently in Boston, MA)











> 
> Here are some ideas I’m considering:
> 
> - mag loop in the rear window
> - thin wire loop on a roof rack 
> - gamma match to the entire roof
> - surface acoustic waves
> - prayer
> 
> Other ideas?
> 
> Yes, I know this violates the laws of physics and bioethics. And I fully 
> expect the car to generate debilitating levels of RFI. But isn’t this the 
> least you’d expect from an unsolved problem? 
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> Wayne
> N6KR
> 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Really OT: Inside-the-vehicle HF antennas (possible bonus points)

[Clay Autery]

Yep...  we owned at least one car growing up that had the antenna in the
windshield  As I remember it, it came up from the bottom of the
center windshield... two parallel black (tiny) wires.  At the top they
each bent out toward the sides of the windshield about 2 inches from the
top... 1 inch diameter or so radius bend, and the horizontal runs were
somewhere around a foot long...

73,

__
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MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

On 7/16/2017 12:04 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
> I thought that was how FM antennas were implemented in some cars already, but 
> without using resistance wire. 
>
> 73, Ron AC7AC
>
>

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Re: [Elecraft] Really OT: Inside-the-vehicle HF antennas (possible bonus points)

[Fred Jensen]

The Southern Pacific RR [now Union Pacific] used 160 MHz DDRR antennas 
on some of their signalling equipment. Generally on top of a big steel 
box beside the track(s).  Had a base plate bolted to the box, and a 
single 25-30 cm element, parallel to the top of the box, spaced about 
6-7 cm above it.  The whole antenna looked like it was cast in one 
piece.  For 20 m, it would be significantly larger, but might be 
disguised as, or in, a roof rack.  A lot of folks drive around with 
stuff piled on their cars these days.


http://www.orionmicro.com/ant/ddrr/ddrr1.htm has some design info

73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 7/15/17 8:37 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:
Regarding the defrost heat element, there's two terminals, one on 
either side.  However with the resistance of the defrost wiring in the 
window, it might be more like a dummy load.  Of course one could just 
feed one side against the auto body, unless one drives a Corvette 
which is mostly plastic.   g


Seems I recall a DDRR antenna which was a low profile, roof mountable 
antenna.   The 40M version would be a bit large with a diameter of 
some 9 ft, although one might reduce the size and still make a 40M - 
10M of reasonable dimensions with reasonable efficiency.


73

Bob, K4TAX

K3S s/n 10163




On Jul 15, 2017 7:54 PM, "Wayne Burdick"  wrote:

I’m dealing with one of the last unsolved problems in amateur radio: 
how
to operate HF mobile without an antenna. At least not one that, 
according

to some vehicle co-owners/spouses, would defile your new sedan.

For 10 bonus points that have only philosophical value, your 
challenge is
to create an invisible mobile antenna and actually make a QSO on it. 
For
practical purposes (i.e., not frying the car or passengers) let’s 
say the
maximum power level is 10 watts. The bands of interest are 40-10 
meters.


Here are some ideas I’m considering:

- mag loop in the rear window
- thin wire loop on a roof rack
- gamma match to the entire roof
- surface acoustic waves
- prayer

Other ideas?

Yes, I know this violates the laws of physics and bioethics. And I 
fully
expect the car to generate debilitating levels of RFI. But isn’t 
this the

least you’d expect from an unsolved problem?

Thanks in advance,

Wayne
N6KR


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Re: [Elecraft] Really OT: Inside-the-vehicle HF antennas (possible bonus points)

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

I thought that was how FM antennas were implemented in some cars already, but 
without using resistance wire. 

73, Ron AC7AC

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net 
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Randy Bright
Sent: Saturday, July 15, 2017 8:18 PM
To: Wayne Burdick
Cc: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Really OT: Inside-the-vehicle HF antennas (possible 
bonus points)

Would there be a way to repurpose the defrost wiring that is sandwiched between 
the layers of glass in some back windows and use that thin wire for your 
antenna?

Randy
AK4QK
Member Calhoun County Amateur Radio Assn.
NAQCC #6312

On Jul 15, 2017 7:54 PM, "Wayne Burdick" <n...@elecraft.com> wrote:

> I’m dealing with one of the last unsolved problems in amateur radio: 
> how to operate HF mobile without an antenna. At least not one that, 
> according to some vehicle co-owners/spouses, would defile your new sedan.
>
> For 10 bonus points that have only philosophical value, your challenge 
> is to create an invisible mobile antenna and actually make a QSO on 
> it. For practical purposes (i.e., not frying the car or passengers) 
> let’s say the maximum power level is 10 watts. The bands of interest are 
> 40-10 meters.
>
> Here are some ideas I’m considering:
>
> - mag loop in the rear window
> - thin wire loop on a roof rack
> - gamma match to the entire roof
> - surface acoustic waves
> - prayer
>
> Other ideas?
>
> Yes, I know this violates the laws of physics and bioethics. And I 
> fully expect the car to generate debilitating levels of RFI. But isn’t 
> this the least you’d expect from an unsolved problem?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] Really OT: Inside-the-vehicle HF antennas (possible bonus points)

[Kevin Cozens]

On 2017-07-15 11:18 PM, Randy Bright wrote:

Would there be a way to repurpose the defrost wiring that is sandwiched
between the layers of glass in some back windows and use that thin wire for
your antenna?


I was going to mention this. I'm sure that I have read about someone who has 
done that. I don't remember if they used the existing wiring in the rear 
window or had it redone so it still looked like defrost wiring.


--
Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/   |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172  | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're
| powerful!"
#include  | --Chris Hardwick
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Re: [Elecraft] Really OT: Inside-the-vehicle HF antennas (possible bonus points)

[Barry]

Even if you can get something to radiate, there's always the issue of RFI to
the car's electronics.  Careful!

Barry W2UP



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Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: [Elecraft] Really OT: Inside-the-vehicle HF antennas (possible bonus points)

[Bob McGraw K4TAX]

Regarding the defrost heat element, there's two terminals, one on either 
side.  However with the resistance of the defrost wiring in the window, 
it might be more like a dummy load.  Of course one could just feed one 
side against the auto body, unless one drives a Corvette which is mostly 
plastic.   g


Seems I recall a DDRR antenna which was a low profile, roof mountable 
antenna.   The 40M version would be a bit large with a diameter of some 
9 ft, although one might reduce the size and still make a 40M - 10M of 
reasonable dimensions with reasonable efficiency.


73

Bob, K4TAX

K3S s/n 10163




On Jul 15, 2017 7:54 PM, "Wayne Burdick"  wrote:


I’m dealing with one of the last unsolved problems in amateur radio: how
to operate HF mobile without an antenna. At least not one that, according
to some vehicle co-owners/spouses, would defile your new sedan.

For 10 bonus points that have only philosophical value, your challenge is
to create an invisible mobile antenna and actually make a QSO on it. For
practical purposes (i.e., not frying the car or passengers) let’s say the
maximum power level is 10 watts. The bands of interest are 40-10 meters.

Here are some ideas I’m considering:

- mag loop in the rear window
- thin wire loop on a roof rack
- gamma match to the entire roof
- surface acoustic waves
- prayer

Other ideas?

Yes, I know this violates the laws of physics and bioethics. And I fully
expect the car to generate debilitating levels of RFI. But isn’t this the
least you’d expect from an unsolved problem?

Thanks in advance,

Wayne
N6KR


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Re: [Elecraft] Really OT: Inside-the-vehicle HF antennas (possible bonus points)

[Randy Bright]

Would there be a way to repurpose the defrost wiring that is sandwiched
between the layers of glass in some back windows and use that thin wire for
your antenna?

Randy
AK4QK
Member Calhoun County Amateur Radio Assn.
NAQCC #6312

On Jul 15, 2017 7:54 PM, "Wayne Burdick"  wrote:

> I’m dealing with one of the last unsolved problems in amateur radio: how
> to operate HF mobile without an antenna. At least not one that, according
> to some vehicle co-owners/spouses, would defile your new sedan.
>
> For 10 bonus points that have only philosophical value, your challenge is
> to create an invisible mobile antenna and actually make a QSO on it. For
> practical purposes (i.e., not frying the car or passengers) let’s say the
> maximum power level is 10 watts. The bands of interest are 40-10 meters.
>
> Here are some ideas I’m considering:
>
> - mag loop in the rear window
> - thin wire loop on a roof rack
> - gamma match to the entire roof
> - surface acoustic waves
> - prayer
>
> Other ideas?
>
> Yes, I know this violates the laws of physics and bioethics. And I fully
> expect the car to generate debilitating levels of RFI. But isn’t this the
> least you’d expect from an unsolved problem?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] Really OT: Inside-the-vehicle HF antennas (possible bonus points)

[Michael Chowning]

Spouse proof mobile antenna on that new car:

1) go to a customizing shop, and have them remove your sunroof
2) take the sunroof to a custom glass shop, have them lay out one layer of 
shatterproof glass
3) you lay out appropriate length thin wire on the glass according to the 
frequencies you desire; be sure to provide wire lead out
4) have the glass fabricators carefully sandwich another layer of glass
5) take glass sunroof back to the customizing shop to be re-installed
6) for extra bonus points, remember most sunroof tilt up a few degrees, giving 
it a modicum of directionality
7) for a whole lot of bonus points, tell the customizing shop you want the 
sunroof to pop up a foot above and for you to be able to rotate it at least a 
180 degrees, since there is electrical power, you could even motorized it.

Now all you have to do, is get permission to rack mount your radio in place of 
the passenger seat.
Seriously, here is a link from Ohio State Unversity on experimental antennas in 
clothes of the military.

https://news.osu.edu/news/2011/08/22/antcloth/
  
Mike, N8TTR

> On Jul 15, 2017, at 8:53 PM, Wayne Burdick  wrote:
> 
> I’m dealing with one of the last unsolved problems in amateur radio: how to 
> operate HF mobile without an antenna. At least not one that, according to 
> some vehicle co-owners/spouses, would defile your new sedan.
> 
> For 10 bonus points that have only philosophical value, your challenge is to 
> create an invisible mobile antenna and actually make a QSO on it. For 
> practical purposes (i.e., not frying the car or passengers) let’s say the 
> maximum power level is 10 watts. The bands of interest are 40-10 meters.
> 
> Here are some ideas I’m considering:
> 
> - mag loop in the rear window
> - thin wire loop on a roof rack 
> - gamma match to the entire roof
> - surface acoustic waves
> - prayer
> 
> Other ideas?
> 
> Yes, I know this violates the laws of physics and bioethics. And I fully 
> expect the car to generate debilitating levels of RFI. But isn’t this the 
> least you’d expect from an unsolved problem? 
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> Wayne
> N6KR
> 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Really OT: Inside-the-vehicle HF antennas (possible bonus points)

[Alan]

One of my colleagues at HP told me he once made a CB antenna by feeding 
the front window of his car between the rear-view mirror and the dash. 
Basically a big slot antenna.  He claimed it worked great.  I don't 
remember how he said he matched it to 50 ohms.


Alan N1AL


On 07/15/2017 05:53 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

I’m dealing with one of the last unsolved problems in amateur radio: how to 
operate HF mobile without an antenna. At least not one that, according to some 
vehicle co-owners/spouses, would defile your new sedan.

For 10 bonus points that have only philosophical value, your challenge is to 
create an invisible mobile antenna and actually make a QSO on it. For practical 
purposes (i.e., not frying the car or passengers) let’s say the maximum power 
level is 10 watts. The bands of interest are 40-10 meters.

Here are some ideas I’m considering:

- mag loop in the rear window
- thin wire loop on a roof rack
- gamma match to the entire roof
- surface acoustic waves
- prayer

Other ideas?

Yes, I know this violates the laws of physics and bioethics. And I fully expect 
the car to generate debilitating levels of RFI. But isn’t this the least you’d 
expect from an unsolved problem?

Thanks in advance,

Wayne
N6KR


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Re: [Elecraft] Really OT: Inside-the-vehicle HF antennas (possible bonus points)

[Mike Flowers]

You may want to have some minimum distance required for the QSO.   Two KC2s and 
a short length of coax would do the trick between two cars parked next to each 
other.  ;>)

-- Mike Flowers, K6MKF, NCDXC - "It's about DX!"

> On Jul 15, 2017, at 5:53 PM, Wayne Burdick  wrote:
> 
> I’m dealing with one of the last unsolved problems in amateur radio: how to 
> operate HF mobile without an antenna. At least not one that, according to 
> some vehicle co-owners/spouses, would defile your new sedan.
> 
> For 10 bonus points that have only philosophical value, your challenge is to 
> create an invisible mobile antenna and actually make a QSO on it. For 
> practical purposes (i.e., not frying the car or passengers) let’s say the 
> maximum power level is 10 watts. The bands of interest are 40-10 meters.
> 
> Here are some ideas I’m considering:
> 
> - mag loop in the rear window
> - thin wire loop on a roof rack 
> - gamma match to the entire roof
> - surface acoustic waves
> - prayer
> 
> Other ideas?
> 
> Yes, I know this violates the laws of physics and bioethics. And I fully 
> expect the car to generate debilitating levels of RFI. But isn’t this the 
> least you’d expect from an unsolved problem? 
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> Wayne
> N6KR
> 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Really OT: Inside-the-vehicle HF antennas (possible bonus points)

[Kevin der Kinderen]

Have you considered an isotropic antenna? I understand it is an ideal
antenna that radiates in all directions and has no physical form. Sounds
like the perfect stealth antenna to me. I've seen them advertised in the
back of True Detective magazines alongside the x-ray glasses.

I was thinking a towed array like a submarine uses. They are pretty
stealthy but you might need to register them separately as a towed vehicle.

Wait - that's an idea. Trailer hitch and set up a trailer as a mobile
antenna farm.

73,
Kev K4VD


​
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