the best methods should be considered.
I wonder what you think would approach a best
method. Do you think tinkering with the ballot
format is completely out?
Kevin Venzke
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can't begin to answer that last question until
Kevin indicates
which ballot formats he considers untinkered.
I meant tinkered, altered, from what you specified in
rule #1 of your method family. Thus my method's
ballot is tinkered in this context.
Yours
Kevin Venzke
[EMAIL PROTECTED
-candidate scenarios involving cycles do you consider realistic?
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. Then the second round is between the two candidates with
the most FOR votes who have not been disqualified.
I think this is much better as a two-round method than a one-round rank
method.
Kevin Venzke
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to a majority or to first preferences, though.
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Chris,
---
From: Chris Benham[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Kevin Venzke wrote:
I think a better method that would achieve everything you are
trying to do with your method (technically
if not psychologically) would be this:
1) Voters indicate one
Jobst,
It was Hay Voting that I was referring to. Maybe this post contains the
desired answer to your puzzle?
Kevin Venzke
--- Jobst Heitzig [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit :
Dear Forest,
you wrote:
I have one question, though. If best strategy is to report true
utilities, then what do you
Chris and John,
--- Kevin Venzke [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit :
The Schwartz set is the smallest non-empty set of candidates none of
whose members are pairwise beaten by any outside-the-set candidate/s.
Actually Schwartz is the union of such sets. There can be more than one,
such as when all
. If
C defeats A pairwise then this causes A to lose to C.
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and everybody votes for a party list. I guess a
party could gain an advantage by running two lists instead of one.
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though, Schwartz
etc. are very useful.
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refers to, but I'm very surprised if the
definition is such that a Landau winner can fail to be a Schwartz winner.
This makes Landau seem less worthwhile to me, since Schwartz is more
intuitive.
Kevin Venzke
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Ne
Rob,
--- Rob LeGrand [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit :
Kevin Venzke wrote:
The defeats are AB, BC, A=C. What reasoning do you use to find that
B and C are in the Landau set? I gather I don't have a complete
understanding of what Landau refers to, but I'm very surprised if the
definition
it becomes an Approval election with two Approvals allowed.
And if this does not produce a majority winner, then the third rank
was added in as well.
Is this sort of information regarding U.S. Bucklin elections available
online? How did you get it?
Kevin Venzke
James,
--- James Gilmour [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit :
Kevin Venzke Sent: 28 September 2007 15:23
What are the best articles or books that can be cited here?
Voting Matters is not highly respected on Wikipedia.
Kevin, could you please elaborate on your comment about Voting matters
Hello,
What are the best articles or books that can be cited here? Voting Matters
is not highly respected on Wikipedia.
Thanks.
Kevin Venzke
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Howard,
--- Howard Swerdfeger [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit :
Not peer review, but Ka ping yee of...
http://zesty.ca/voting/sim/
has run sum simulations of election systems in 2d space
and it shows quite a few problems with IRV.
these guys (warren smith) also have some Yee diagrams
Hi,
--- Abd ul-Rahman Lomax [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit :
At 01:16 PM 9/28/2007, Kevin Venzke wrote:
If that were shown to be incorrect, though, then at least James
Green-Armytage's article could be usefully cited on this topic. I don't
think he mentions IRV specifically, but he discusses
-en/jne/BR/case-studies/esy_br
http://countrystudies.us/brazil/100.htm
http://lasa.international.pitt.edu/LASA97/desposato.pdf
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; 5644 AC; 5446
BA.
A wins the cycle because A's loss to B is the weakest loss.
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that Bucklin fails monotonicity? Are you assuming a certain
treatment of equal rankings?
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A to B.
In this case? Doesn't it matter what you do with the information? I'm not
a fan of letting voters provide more data if the method won't do anything
with it.
Kevin Venzke
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do.
It's sort of a prisoner's dilemma, since the A and C factions are both
happier on average if they agree to an AC coin flip.
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legitimacy of the winner.
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it.
Note that under WV, the optimal strategy doesn't depend on estimating what
the C voters will do.
I plan to tinker with the scenario tomorrow and see if I can find anything
else of interest.
Kevin Venzke
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).
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utility
or at least distribute it more evenly, over time.
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occurrence of favorite betrayal incentive under
it...
I could not support a Borda-based method because Borda's mechanism strikes
me as unreasonable. It doesn't make sense for scoring to be dependent upon
the number of candidates representing some policy.
Kevin Venzke
Condorcet than under IRV.
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substantially change the situation by using a
different multi-winner rule, though. It's more a characteristic of this
pairing of ballot format and purpose.
I'm not sure what a good analogy would be in the single-winner case.
Kevin Venzke
to do better than this.
For Range to work as well as hoped, it is important that voters do *not*
realize how to vote effectively. Or, that they choose not to.
Kevin Venzke
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Hi,
--- Abd ul-Rahman Lomax [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit :
At 11:18 PM 12/23/2007, rob brown wrote:
On Dec 23, 2007 7:28 PM, Kevin Venzke
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
For Range to work as well as hoped, it is important that voters do *not*
realize how to vote effectively
exception. Maybe Bucklin.
But I don't think any pairwise-oriented method would stand a chance of
meeting your criteria if IRV doesn't.
Kevin Venzke
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Hi,
--- Abd ul-Rahman Lomax [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit :
At 09:47 AM 12/25/2007, Kevin Venzke wrote:
[...] Range, voted with full strategic
effect, reduces to Approval Voting, which may reduce to bullet
voting. It *still* is not Plurality, because it only takes a few
percent of voters
it to the second round but loses,
have I been treated unequally because I never had a chance to vote for my
second preference?
I guess one could hold such opinions, but top-two runoff is not such a rare
method in the world.
Kevin Venzke
are
contingency choices) would paint a broader picture about IRV, but the
fact that e.g. Dave Ketchum doesn't value these advantages, doesn't in my
mind undermine his criticisms...
Kevin Venzke
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Hi Kathy,
--- Kathy Dopp [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit :
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 19:33:27 +0100 (CET)
From: Kevin Venzke [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [Election-Methods] RE : Re: IRV ballot is at least as fair as
FPTPballot
Yes some voters have second-choice considered
to find other Condorcet
methods that satisfy criteria that they don't.
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under any method, let alone ALL methods.
And while you'd be discussing this, the lawyers on the other side would be
pointing out that Range can fail to elect the voted first preference of a
majority. This issue would be a significant hurdle, do you agree?
Kevin Venzke
(serious) method with more straight-forward strategy
than Approval.
This weekend I'm trying to design a simulation to examine strategy under
two-round runoff methods and am finding it very tricky.
Kevin Venzke
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the method does its best to get you what you want.
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that it's debatable?
You should remember from past discussions why the claim that Condorcet
voting ... is nowhere near as utilitarian as range voting was criticized.
Ask Warren.
Kevin Venzke
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and Preference) they
also propose Bucklin, understanding that all ranked candidates should be
considered approved.
From the abstract and introduction: Information on the rankings and
information on the approval of candidates in an election ... are [both]
important in the determination of social choices.
Kevin
if I
could not stand to the side as an observer and agree that the method gave
proper results.
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rank B at all, B can still win.
Here is a simple example:
7 BC
5 C
8 A
What do you think? Is there good evidence and logic available for a method
to decide that B is the best candidate to win?
Kevin Venzke
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) at preventing the strategy
from working.
Any thoughts?
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information is on the new ballot. I can barely think how to do this, let
alone how to do it when Smith compliance is also needed.
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of incompatibilities have been proven at least with rank ballot
methods. I doubt there's good reason to be optimistic about getting around
many of these incompatibilities by changing the ballot type.
Maybe you have something specific in mind though.
Kevin Venzke
Daniel,
--- daniel radetsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit :
On Jan 10, 2008 7:46 PM, Kevin Venzke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Plenty of incompatibilities have been proven at least with rank ballot
methods.
Well, there you go.
I doubt there's good reason to be optimistic about getting
this to be
interpreted as have the government make this decision not let the other
voters make this decision.
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to dodge responsibility or give the decision more
legitimacy. To prevent gaming the procedure I would prefer that the measure
can't be passed (or definitively defeated) only by a small number of voters
who strongly support (or oppose) it.
Kevin Venzke
this is a somewhat interesting read. Any thoughts?
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and
should realize that when they alter their votes, they have a big effect on
the outcome. This can be helped somewhat by running with more factions.
That's all I've got for now.
Kevin Venzke
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is friendly to it. I'm not
totally sure.
As far as my strategy simulation is concerned, this rule change raises the
question of how voters should evaluate the possibility that they elevate a
candidate to the top spot on first preferences only to see him lose due to
pairwise opposition.
Kevin Venzke
Chris,
--- Kevin Venzke [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit :
Kevin,
Kevin Venzke wrote:
As far as my strategy simulation is concerned, this rule change raises
the
question of how voters should evaluate the possibility that they elevate
a
candidate to the top spot on first preferences only
, and did not vary by voter. Thus the fact
that candidates 0 and 1 are considered frontrunners is not a strategic
decision made by the voters, it is the information provided to them.
Kevin Venzke
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their strategy based on this arbitrary information, you can see
how the method behaves then voters have very flawed information. It is a
worst case as I already said. Obviously this is not the sole situation
under which strategy should be studied.
Kevin Venzke
artificially votes C=bottom (but aside from that, all votes
unchanged). Here C denotes the Black-winner with honest votes. Then: with
probability#8594;100% in the #voters#8594;#8734; limit, the new winner
will be neither
C nor X. And when it is not X, that means burial does not work.
Kevin Venzke
on a 1D spectrum, I'd say
that's ok. The first problem is self-correcting, and the second one
shouldn't be all that common.
Kevin Venzke
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Hi,
--- Juho [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit :
On Apr 17, 2008, at 16:39 , Kevin Venzke wrote:
Hi,
The claim that I don't recall having seen before is that in
Range and
Approval it makes sense to the parties not to nominate multiple
candidates.
I've made this claim as well. When
that it
does?
Specifically it seems to me that if you just elect the top X FPP candidates
in an X-seat election, you maximize the number of voters that got their
favorite elected.
Kevin Venzke
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to win when the two major parties select
candidates who are out of touch with the voters.
Just some ideas.
Kevin Venzke
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Hi,
I didn't realize Chris' last message to me was posted to the list.
Here is my response to it:
--- En date de : Mar 17.6.08, Kevin Venzke [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit :
De: Kevin Venzke [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Objet: Re: [Election-Methods] Reducing 3-cand elections to 8 scenarios
À: Chris Benham
these issues.
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the alternatives would and should
accomplish nothing (unless you support the third candidate). The only
reason to ask these voters to do that is that it would be nice if we could
say it worked. As strategy advice in this scenario I think it is poor.
Kevin Venzke
virtually
all the time. The only thing you give up is the novelty of being able
to say that voters can and should rank everybody they can. Personally I'd
rather have the method just work well, than have maximum expressiveness.
Kevin Venzke
, essentially
ranking the unknown option above the competition, I consider it hardly
any different from using burial strategy, in terms of its destructive
effect on the outcome.
Kevin Venzke
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that truncation will not be used.
(One more reason why A voters should not use burial
strategy is that
if C is stronger than expected then their strategy might
also lead to
electing C instead of B.
If there's any possibility of this scenario, I don't believe people would
use burial.
Kevin Venzke
is your introduction to voting systems? I am a little
curious where the Range advocates come from.
Kevin Venzke
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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it as highly useful.
I am not very optimistic about any very expressive ballot formats,
actually. Allowing desired voter behavior isn't the same as encouraging it,
and I think simpler ballots are better for the latter.
Kevin Venzke
Election-Methods mailing list - see http
that the subsequent voters sound so ready to vote for
whoever is a current frontrunner, when that frontrunner status might be
based on nothing but luck, from getting votes early.
Kevin Venzke
Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
method will elect a compromise more often in the absence of a majority
solidly committed to a single candidate, than the method which is not
majoritarian. I am assuming voters are strategic.
Kevin Venzke
Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
. Equality of
preference and truncation are not implemented, so that many popular
methods cannot even be tested without ignoring their capabilities.
Nomination (dis)incentives can't be examined either.
Kevin Venzke
Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list
of the criterion that doesn't refer to first
preferences. Even your definition refers to first preferences.
Kevin Venzke
Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
,
hence allowing a
candidate with a majority to in fact lose.
This is avoided by defining the majority criterion to refer to strict
first preferences.
Kevin Venzke
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additional candidates who probably
can't win.
However, I doubt TTR is similar to IRV with respect to nomination
incentive.
Kevin Venzke
Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
Voting is also very bad. It fails Majority
Favourite and Rich Party
(meaning that it fails Clone-Loser in a way that advantages
factions who field
more candidates).
Just like Antiplurality.
Kevin Venzke
Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
at least some choice the voters can still make, in the
second round.
But this means more candidates can be nominated. And that means that it
may be somewhat arbitrary which candidates end up as the finalists.
Kevin Venzke
Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em
preference only receives a 60%. Does that mean his top preference is
only 60% of a first preference?
Kevin Venzke
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Hi Raph,
--- En date de : Jeu 16.10.08, Raph Frank [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit :
De: Raph Frank [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Objet: Re: [EM] Strategic Voting and Simulating It
À: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Jeudi 16 Octobre 2008, 4h55
On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 2:23 AM, Kevin Venzke
candidates. Otherwise Condorcet//Approval is not too good here.)
Also, my Improved Condorcet Approval method, does not have favorite
betrayal incentive. However, it's not as nice to explain, and it doesn't
completely satisfy Condorcet.
Kevin Venzke
__
Do
to find a
winner.
What's the difference? The Copeland winner wins, and
approval is used
as the tie-break?
The difference is that in C//A you do not have to be in the Smith set to
win.
Kevin Venzke
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Hi Dave,
--- En date de : Sam 18.10.08, Dave Ketchum [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit :
Given a Condorcet cycle, how does anyone justify awarding a
winner outside?
Two possibilities:
1. to simplify the definition of the method
2. to satisfy other strategy criteria.
Kevin Venzke
would have to be clone
negative.
If you define best candidate according to first round first preferences
then it's unclear why you would have a runoff at all.
The second method isn't clone-independent either, given the possibility
that B could defeat a single A, but lose if A is cloned.
Kevin
A clarification:
--- En date de : Dim 19.10.08, Kevin Venzke [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit :
In the example mentioned, it didn't seem to me that
anybody had majority
approval, in which case it isn't clear who would win a
runoff.
Actually even if exactly one candidate had majority approval
Hi Raph,
--- En date de : Dim 19.10.08, Raph Frank [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit :
On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 4:18 PM, Kevin Venzke
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Maybe I haven't read closely enough. I thought the
method was to simply
have a runoff between the top two approved candidates
good at strategizing on your behalf
(for all
voters), that it wouldn't pay off to try to manually
use strategy.
Many methods are designed with this goal of course. I could think of this
as the mentality behind the Condorcet criterion.
Kevin Venzke
Hi Dave,
--- En date de : Lun 20.10.08, Dave Ketchum [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit :
Your suggested possibilities had best have STRONG arguments
to overpower
known facts:
Yes, I'm aware of this.
Kevin Venzke
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Hi Raph,
--- En date de : Dim 19.10.08, Raph Frank [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit :
On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 4:29 PM, Kevin Venzke
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Actually even if exactly one candidate had majority
approval, that would
not guarantee that they would win a runoff.
It would depend
calling Possible Approval
Winner (PAW).
35: A
10: A=B
30: BC
25: C
This example is from Kevin Venzke, which he gave to show
that Schulze (also) elects
B and so fails this criterion. It doesn't bother me
very much. MCA and Bucklin elect C.
It's an interesting question I think
. districted single winner contests
2. party-based systems
3. mutlwinner methods
4. delegation
When you use the term parliament, I guess you're only referring to
a legislature to whom the executive is responsible?
Kevin Venzke
Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em
doesn't allow it any
other way (such as if this is the bottom of the ballot and you can't
approve all candidates).
Kevin Venzke
Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
that it has been
a good thing that the elections have not been conducted by a single
authority.
It's possible to imagine a different American history, if the federal
government had been in a position to cancel or postpone or manipulate the
presidential election.
Kevin Venzke
Election
already say that you
won't win).
There may be something about San Francisco elections that I'm not aware
of.
Kevin Venzke
Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
if nominations can be made directly).
Kevin Venzke
Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
Hi Jonathan,
--- En date de : Mar 25.11.08, Jonathan Lundell [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit :
It's not an unreasonable
conjecture that Bayrou would have gotten a larger percentage
of first choices (some from Sarkozy and Royal) under IRV.
Could you explain this viewpoint?
Thanks.
Kevin Venzke
.
For the latter, I don't think it's clear that if Condorcet can't succeed,
nothing can.
Kevin Venzke
Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
useful
theory is Range based on? What makes it objective and ideal if not
what I stated above?
I also wonder, what, theoretically, does it look like when Range fails
and gives a poor result. Is such a thing allowed?
Kevin Venzke
Election-Methods mailing list - see http
transitive ranking
of the candidates. Maybe it's harder to believe, but it can't be
disproven. (Though, I don't really think it is harder to believe,
since approval has a plain English meaning.)
Kevin Venzke
Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
argue about what
the sincere vote is, not whether Approval supports the concept at all.
We would find a similar problem if we granted the idea of sincere
cyclical preferences, and then wanted to analyze rank ballot methods
and what sincerity must mean there.
Kevin Venzke
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