Re: Intentional Radiator or not?
I agree with Mr. Pettit and I would further state that I do not consider baseband video to be an antenna-transmittable rf signal. The spectrum required for video is too broad to be transmitted until it is up-converted. -- From: Pettit, Ghery ghery.pet...@intel.com To: 'Gary McInturff' gary.mcintu...@worldwidepackets.com, EMC-PSTC (E-mail) emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: Intentional Radiator or not? Date: Mon, Sep 30, 2002, 11:21 AM Gary, Is it necessary for this device to radiate a signal in order to function? From your description, I think not. Therefore, I would think that this is not an intentional radiator. But then, I'm not an FCC official, nor do I play one on TV... Ghery Pettit -Original Message- From: Gary McInturff [mailto:gary.mcintu...@worldwidepackets.com] Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 8:36 AM To: EMC-PSTC (E-mail) Subject: Intentional Radiator or not? I have a black box device that takes in an RF video feed via a coax cable and then translates that to light energy for transmission. Its bi-direction, meaning that, I can also pump light into it and get the RF signal back for distribution down the coax cable. My opinion, for the moment is that it is not an intentional radiator, simple a cable connected device that happens to have RF signals present to perform is function of data transmission. Any disagreements, and why? Thanks for your thoughts Gary --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: limits of electrical modelling
Muriel Colin Brench's reply gives you the main jist. I have a couple things to add. 1. Make sure that you account for the fact that propagation along the circuitboard is usually slower than free space. This shortens the wavelength; which effectively lowers the frequency where your transmission line becomes longer than 1/10th wavelength. If you already thought of this, please excuse me for repeating the obvious. 2. A website for UltraCAD (a PCB design house in Washington) has some free calculator programs for figuring characteristic impedance of different PCB transmission lines. Chris Maxwell | Design Engineer - Optical Division email chris.maxw...@nettest.com | dir +1 315 266 5128 | fax +1 315 797 8024 NetTest | 6 Rhoads Drive, Utica, NY 13502 | USA web www.nettest.com | tel +1 315 797 4449 | -Original Message- From: Brench, Colin [SMTP:colin.bre...@hp.com] Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 3:33 PM To: Muriel Bittencourt de Liz; EMC-PSTC List Subject: RE: limits of electrical modelling Hi Muriel, You may need to use full 3D modeling to get evaluate stray L C and even R but unless the object that you are examining is electrically large (say .1 wavelength or more) you should not need a full wave tool for a SMPS. Lumped elements can be used even at very high frequencies providing you have enough elements to fully describe the structure. Most EMC analysis falls down due to coupling mechanisms being omitted from the model, not because the techniques itself is inadequate. So there is hope! Colin.. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: limits of electrical modelling
It depends on the modeling you want to do. If you are looking to simulate the circuit behavour of the power supply, you can continue to use lumped models of the components, with lumped models of the printed circuit board traces (inductance and resistance, plus capacitance if you are dealing with high impedances or coupling issues). If the round trip time for a signal on a trace begins to approach the edge transistion time, then transmission line models are appropriate. All this will work to very high frequencies, certainly anything you will encounter in a power supply. When it comes to EMC, the model will be a whole system of antennas, mostly radiating loops defined by the major current paths. Additional lumped elements for the magnetics will be needed to complete the model. Don Borowski Schweitzer Engineering Labs Pullman, WA Muriel Bittencourt de Liz mur...@eel.ufsc.br on 09/30/2002 10:57:11 AM Please respond to Muriel Bittencourt de Liz mur...@eel.ufsc.br To: EMC-PSTC List emc-p...@ieee.org cc:(bcc: Don Borowski/SEL) Subject: limits of electrical modelling Hi, As switched frequencies are increasing every day (clock frequencies, switching frequencies of SMPS's), and together its dv/dt and di/dt, big EMC problems are arising in the horizon... So, thinking about that, I had some doubts, that I'd like to share with you and, if possible, share some answers: - As simple lumped circuit representations are no longer valid for representing electrical behavior with high frequency operation, is there a frequency to which I can assure that lumped circuit theory works fine? - Are distributed full wave analysis tools the only way to surpass these deficiencies of lumped circuit theory?? - Can I, only using stray resistances, capacitances and inductances, model a circuit until it's simulated behavior achieve a good aproximation with measured data? Thanks in advance and Best Regards!! Muriel Bittencourt de Liz --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list This e-mail may contain SEL confidential information. The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of SEL. Any unauthorized disclosure, distribution or other use is prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender, permanently delete it, and destroy any printout. Thank you. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: limits of electrical modelling
Hi Muriel, You may need to use full 3D modeling to get evaluate stray L C and even R but unless the object that you are examining is electrically large (say .1 wavelength or more) you should not need a full wave tool for a SMPS. Lumped elements can be used even at very high frequencies providing you have enough elements to fully describe the structure. Most EMC analysis falls down due to coupling mechanisms being omitted from the model, not because the techniques itself is inadequate. So there is hope! Colin.. -Original Message- From: Muriel Bittencourt de Liz [mailto:mur...@eel.ufsc.br] Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 1:57 PM To: EMC-PSTC List Subject: limits of electrical modelling Hi, As switched frequencies are increasing every day (clock frequencies, switching frequencies of SMPS's), and together its dv/dt and di/dt, big EMC problems are arising in the horizon... So, thinking about that, I had some doubts, that I'd like to share with you and, if possible, share some answers: - As simple lumped circuit representations are no longer valid for representing electrical behavior with high frequency operation, is there a frequency to which I can assure that lumped circuit theory works fine? - Are distributed full wave analysis tools the only way to surpass these deficiencies of lumped circuit theory?? - Can I, only using stray resistances, capacitances and inductances, model a circuit until it's simulated behavior achieve a good aproximation with measured data? Thanks in advance and Best Regards!! Muriel Bittencourt de Liz --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: DOC - Paper Reduction
I had rare occasions where a product would not pass certain immunity requirements for CE Mark (often a difficult ESD problem) but did meet the emission requirements of ICES/FCC or North America. If a product was delayed by such problems the release could go forward (via flags and message fields I could set in the corporate database) that would forbid sales to EU customers. Later, when the immunity problem was fixed and implemented, the order-entry non-CE flag was cleared and the DoC was placed onto the corporate web site, but not packaged with the product as it was until about a year ago. For a product catalog of 500 items the old paper DoC method was costly to support and revise as the ENs change and multiply. At least this was true up until March 2002 when I ended my employment. Best Regards, Eric Lifsey --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: China Switch Approval
John, Recently, one of our happy clients became the first US manufacturer (networking unit) who successfully went through CCC audit and obtained CCC within 3 weeks (in fact 12 working days) including product testing and factory inspection with the assistance from Siemic Labs - (Application was made on 9/5, Testing started on 9/9, Factory inspected on 9/16, and CCC approved on 9/20). Reference is available upon request. For more information about China approvals (CCC, NAL/NAI, MPS), visit us at: http://www.siemic.com We were also contracted by another Network Switching manufacturer for China MII approval early this year and thought my direct experience would be helpful. Pls feel free to contact me off-line for a detail discussion. As part of services, we also help to arrange direct dialogue with government officers (MII, CNCA, MPS) for our clients whenever necessary for the most cost-effective approach to get China approvals at the earliest opportunity. Regards, Leslie John Smith wrote: I am new to the group. I am consulting with a company that is making a CO switch. They are planning to market the product in China. As I understand the process, I have to get MII and CNCA approvals. Is there anything else that I need to do for China? About how long does it take to get these approvals? Thank You, J. Smith = Best Regards, John Smith Regulatory Consulting __ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list - Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC Yahoo!
limits of electrical modelling
Hi, As switched frequencies are increasing every day (clock frequencies, switching frequencies of SMPS's), and together its dv/dt and di/dt, big EMC problems are arising in the horizon... So, thinking about that, I had some doubts, that I'd like to share with you and, if possible, share some answers: - As simple lumped circuit representations are no longer valid for representing electrical behavior with high frequency operation, is there a frequency to which I can assure that lumped circuit theory works fine? - Are distributed full wave analysis tools the only way to surpass these deficiencies of lumped circuit theory?? - Can I, only using stray resistances, capacitances and inductances, model a circuit until it's simulated behavior achieve a good aproximation with measured data? Thanks in advance and Best Regards!! Muriel Bittencourt de Liz --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: China Switch Approval
John, Welcome to the list server. The answer, like most answers to regulatory questions is It depends. You are mostly correct. You definitely need MII approval. For CNCA, it depends on the technical description of the equipment. For MII approvals, it should take between 3 and 6 months depending on the complexity of the equipment. The last approvals that we participated in took about 3.5 months. If you need any more information, you can feel free to contact me off-line. If you would like more information about China approvals, CNCA is sending several of their senior officials to put on two workshops on China approvals. One workshop is in Santa Clara on October 11 and the other is in Washington DC on October 15. Here are the links to the registration information http://www.esimcom.com/santaclara/cnca_inv.htm http://www.esimcom.com/dc/cnca_inv_dc.htm Best regards, Jim Seippel Director, Engineering Development and Technical Support SIMCOM International Holdings Company -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org] On Behalf Of John Smith Sent: September 30, 2002 10:28 AM To: PSTC Subject: China Switch Approval I am new to the group. I am consulting with a company that is making a CO switch. They are planning to market the product in China. As I understand the process, I have to get MII and CNCA approvals. Is there anything else that I need to do for China? About how long does it take to get these approvals? Thank You, J. Smith = Best Regards, John Smith Regulatory Consulting --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Intentional Radiator or not?
Gary, Is it necessary for this device to radiate a signal in order to function? From your description, I think not. Therefore, I would think that this is not an intentional radiator. But then, I'm not an FCC official, nor do I play one on TV... Ghery Pettit -Original Message- From: Gary McInturff [mailto:gary.mcintu...@worldwidepackets.com] Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 8:36 AM To: EMC-PSTC (E-mail) Subject: Intentional Radiator or not? I have a black box device that takes in an RF video feed via a coax cable and then translates that to light energy for transmission. Its bi-direction, meaning that, I can also pump light into it and get the RF signal back for distribution down the coax cable. My opinion, for the moment is that it is not an intentional radiator, simple a cable connected device that happens to have RF signals present to perform is function of data transmission. Any disagreements, and why? Thanks for your thoughts Gary --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: China Switch Approval
Hi John, A lot will depend on specifics of the equipment. The MII Network Access License for switching equipment could take as long as 6 months, depending on testing MII requires. The process will also include review of the equipment by an expert panel convened by MII and possibly network trial testing. You'll need to have someone on the ground in China to support the process. As for the CCC mark administered by CNCA, switching equipment should not require it. Again, depends on products specifics, though. If you'd like to go over product specifics to narrow down the requirements, by all means contact me any time off-list. Hope this helps. -Fred Borda Compliance International www.typeapproval.com At AM 08:27 09/30/02 -0700, John Smith wrote: I am new to the group. I am consulting with a company that is making a CO switch. They are planning to market the product in China. As I understand the process, I have to get MII and CNCA approvals. Is there anything else that I need to do for China? About how long does it take to get these approvals? Thank You, J. Smith = Best Regards, John Smith Regulatory Consulting __ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list Fred Borda Director Marketing Business Development Compliance International www.typeapproval.com -- The experts in telecommunications equipment type approval across the Asia-Pacific region -- 4713 First Street, Suite 280 Pleasanton, California 94566-7362 USA Tel +1.925.417.5571 (direct) Fax +1.925.417.5574 Mobile +1.650.740.5762 fbo...@typeapproval.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: DOC - Paper Reduction
I read in !emc-pstc that Chris Maxwell chris.maxw...@nettest.com wrote (in 83d652574e7af740873674f9fc12dbaaf7e...@utexh1w2.gnnettest.com) about 'DOC - Paper Reduction' on Mon, 30 Sep 2002: Well, I wanted to add my 2 cents worth; but as usual, I tossed in a quarter. I hope this helps. It's all very sensible, except that I don't see why you were the roadblock. While you would have to wait for tests results etc. to release the product, you know you can't market it without the DOC, so why not complete the version for printing in the manual on that understanding? -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
China Switch Approval
I am new to the group. I am consulting with a company that is making a CO switch. They are planning to market the product in China. As I understand the process, I have to get MII and CNCA approvals. Is there anything else that I need to do for China? About how long does it take to get these approvals? Thank You, J. Smith = Best Regards, John Smith Regulatory Consulting __ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: RADIATED IMMUNITY TESTING ABOVE 1GHz
I think the original generic EN 50082-2 had a requirement for pulsed immunity testing to ENV 50204. Someone with more knowledge correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember something about this being a knee-jerk reaction to GSM. Subsequently the usual 80%AM of 61000-4-3 was found/believed to be more invasive. Dave Graham. -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Chris Chileshe Sent: 30 September 2002 08:59 To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: RADIATED IMMUNITY TESTING ABOVE 1GHz Ian wrote .. I believe the generic standard EN61000-6-2 refers to testing using pulsed modulation at 900MHz only. to which John replies .. I can't find any mention of that in EN 61000-6-2. Agreed. I test to EN 61000-6-2 and I have never come across this requirement. I have just been re-reading BS EN 61000:6-2:1999 and I still can't find this requirement. Was this an error on the part of the originator in which case I can rest assured my test results and DoCs are valid? Regards - Chris This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
AS/NZS 60950:2000
Greetings folks, Can anyone advise on what the date of withdrawal for AS/NZS 3260 is and what the effective implementation dates for AS/NZS60950:2000 are? Wondering if it's harmonized with EN60950:2000 or if the dates and conditions contain any written differences as would be the case of UL/CSA 60950, third edition? Thanks In Advance, Regards, Kaz Gawrzyjal Dell Computer Corp. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: RADIATED IMMUNITY TESTING ABOVE 1GHz
Chris, It sounds like you are referring to ENV 50204:1995, which simulates a digital radio telephone transmitting close to the equipment under test (EUT). This test is performed at a single frequency between 895MHz and 905MHz, keyed on and off at 200Hz with a 50% duty cycle. The only standards that I have seen that call for ENV 50204 are: * EN 50082-1:1997, for generic residential/commercial/light industrial apparatus, calls for ENV 50204 to be performed at 3V/m under the enclosure port tests in Table 1. * EN 50082-2:1995, for generic industrial apparatus, calls for ENV 50204 to be performed at 10V/m under the enclosure port tests in Table 1. EN 50082-1:1997 may be used until July 1, 2004, when EN 61000-6-1:2001 takes over as the generic immunity standard for residential/commercial/ light industrial apparatus. EN 50082-2:1995 was replaced by EN 61000-6-2:1999 on April 1, 2002 as the generic immunity standard for industrial apparatus. John Barnes KS4GL dBi Corporation http://www.dbicorporation.com/ --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: RADIATED IMMUNITY TESTING ABOVE 1GHz
I read in !emc-pstc that Gordon,Ian ian.gor...@edwards.boc.com wrote (in E1BA0362B28ED211A1E80008C71EA306018190CE@EXC_EAS01) about 'RADIATED IMMUNITY TESTING ABOVE 1GHz' on Mon, 30 Sep 2002: My mistake - the old light industrial generic immunity standard EN50082-1 (and EN61000-6-1?) includes use of a keyed carrier at 900MHz No, IEC/EN 61000-6-1 doesn't include it either. There was a BIG argument between experts over the test signal to be used for assessing immunity to mobile phone emissions. CENELEC people prematurely chose the keyed-carrier signal, but it presents inconvenience in both generation and measurement. IEC experts (some from Europe) showed that sinusoidal modulation is quite acceptable and does not present those problems. See Annex A of IEC/EN61000-4-3:1995/7. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: DOC - Paper Reduction
I visited this question a few years ago. At one time, we put a copy of the Declaration of Conformity (DOC) in the manual. This was troublesome. Whenever standards changed, we would have to make a new DOC...and a new manual. It also caused trouble during product development because we couldn't finish the manual until we had the DOC. Seeing as how the DOC is one of the last parts of the compliance process; I became a road-block to completion of the manuals. Whenever an engineer becomes a road-block, it's not long before they are road-kill. We didn't want to pack a copy of the DOC with the products. Given that it takes time to change Bills of Material and shipping instructions; packing DOCs with products carries the risk of providing the customer with either incorrect or out of date information. It also becomes just another item for our shipping department to keep track of. Given the fact that they aren't really enthusiastic about compliance...I'd rather let them work on other issues. Besides, isn't that what the compliance markings on the instruments or packaging are for anyway? We finally settled on this solution. 1. Compliant products carry the markings on either the product, packaging or documentation as recommended in the standards. (Usually on the product itself, unless it is very small.) 2. Our product manuals have page in the front with a reproduction of compliance markings and an explanation. For instance, take CE marking. There is a reproduction of the CE logo. Below it is a paragraph stating that Products bearing the CE mark meet the applicable standards of the EMC and Low Voltage Directives. Declarations of Conformity and Compliance folders may be obtained from x At we put the contact information of our European representative. Along with this compliance information, we put the warnings and other verbage recommended by the standards...you know, Replace fuse with same type and rating...don't use our products while taking a bath, do not use our product while carrying a long, sharp, metal pole in a thunderstorm, do not drop our product out of a third story window onto your head...blah, blah, blah...yada, yada, yada 3. Along with the above, we have put all of our compliance documentation on our server in Word, Acrobat or BitMap formats (at least for recent products). This satisfies the provision that the compliance documentation be available for inspection in a reasonable amout of time. If there is any question, we email the DOC and any other requested support documentation. Well, I wanted to add my 2 cents worth; but as usual, I tossed in a quarter. I hope this helps. Chris Maxwell | Design Engineer - Optical Division email chris.maxw...@nettest.com | dir +1 315 266 5128 | fax +1 315 797 8024 NetTest | 6 Rhoads Drive, Utica, NY 13502 | USA web www.nettest.com | tel +1 315 797 4449 | -Original Message- From: Jim Bacher [SMTP:jim.bac...@paxar.com] Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2002 1:33 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: DOC - Paper Reduction We have a number of products that meet the same standards. Currently we issue a DOC for each product. As each of the DOCs are identical except for the model number, is there any reason why we could not list all the models on one DOC? Granted as standards change there will be times when new products will meet new standards and we will need a new DOC for the newer products, as they would be tested to different standards than the older products. Jim Jim Bacher, Senior Engineer Paxar Corp. e-mail: jim.bac...@paxar.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute:
RE: RADIATED IMMUNITY TESTING ABOVE 1GHz
My mistake - the old light industrial generic immunity standard EN50082-1 (and EN61000-6-1?) includes use of a keyed carrier at 900MHz and by mistake I had assumed that the newer industrial generic immunity standard would also. This is not the case. However, it seems a little strange that the more severe industrial standard does not include this test - mobile 'phones are equally prolific in industrial locations as in non-industrial ones. I'm sure the test will come eventually - so if you're a product designer perhaps you should ask for the test to be performed on your product! Thanks Ian Gordon -Original Message- From: Chris Chileshe [mailto:chris.chile...@ultronics.com] Sent: 30 September 2002 08:59 To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: RADIATED IMMUNITY TESTING ABOVE 1GHz Ian wrote .. I believe the generic standard EN61000-6-2 refers to testing using pulsed modulation at 900MHz only. to which John replies .. I can't find any mention of that in EN 61000-6-2. Agreed. I test to EN 61000-6-2 and I have never come across this requirement. I have just been re-reading BS EN 61000:6-2:1999 and I still can't find this requirement. Was this an error on the part of the originator in which case I can rest assured my test results and DoCs are valid? Regards - Chris This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list _ This e-mail has been scanned for viruses by the WorldCom Internet Managed Scanning Service - powered by MessageLabs. For further information visit http://www.worldcom.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Harmonised standards and frequencies
Unfortunately, parameters contained in harmonized specifications do not indicate that the frequency band is harmonized. For that, you will have to check out CEPT recommendations and decisions and then determine if the target countries have adopted them. Sigh, one would wish for an easier process. Richard Woods Sensormatic Electronics Tyco International -Original Message- From: david.gra...@realcompliance.com [mailto:david.gra...@realcompliance.com] Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2002 2:21 PM To: EMC pstc Subject: Harmonised standards and frequencies Hello group, A quick one for anyone familiar with the RTTE Directive. Product is a TETRA hand portable radio. Radio is capable of 'Direct mode' of operation (i.e. walkey talkey style, not under control of network). Direct mode is listed as 'Class 2', however, the harmonised standard (303 035-2) lists frequencies of use. Question - Should the product bear the equipment class identifier and be notified as per Art 6.4? I know harmonised frequencies and harmonised standards are different beasts, but by citing the frequencies in the standard can one not infer that they are harmonised? Opinions gratefully received. Dave Graham. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: RADIATED IMMUNITY TESTING ABOVE 1GHz
Ian wrote .. I believe the generic standard EN61000-6-2 refers to testing using pulsed modulation at 900MHz only. to which John replies .. I can't find any mention of that in EN 61000-6-2. Agreed. I test to EN 61000-6-2 and I have never come across this requirement. I have just been re-reading BS EN 61000:6-2:1999 and I still can't find this requirement. Was this an error on the part of the originator in which case I can rest assured my test results and DoCs are valid? Regards - Chris This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
