Re: [Emc-users] Bug in stepconf?
Hi Peter, Hello Gentlemen, this is mainly to the EMC developers. Since January I have tried to get my steppers run smoothly and evenly. I wrote several mails to the list on this problem, but received little echo. Now I seem to be near to the solution which might be of interest to the developing team. Any feedback is interesting to the developing team and to other users aswell. My steppers rattled and lost steps regardless of the conditions I gave them. I've changed almost everything in the setup to get the motors run correctly. Result: No cure for the problem of rattling steppers loosing steps (name of my former thread). snip lots of impressive testing Note that I did all this with the test axis function of stepconf because this is a very convenient way to see the result of parameter variations immediately. Well, that wasn't the intent of test axis, at least not for some parts of what you did. Stepconf is a helping tool that helps new users come up with a stepper configuration. By all means you don't have to use stepconf to run emc2. There are also (a lot) of sample configurations which you can adapt to your system, or you can always write a configuration up from scratch (this is probably a tedious task, and few people actually do it). Test axis is a way to test the numbers you entered and pins you selected in stepconf, to see if everything is set up right and the motors are moving. If you change a configuration (the ini and hal files) generated by stepconf, then there are some cave-eats: * you can't run stepconf again on that configuration, or your changes will be lost * if you run stepconf on that configuration, it won't pick up the changes you made to the ini and hal files, so you won't notice any improvements * if you change the .stepconf file, then stepconf will see the changes you've done, but it's probably hard/not really usefull to do so. The best way to go on about this is: 1. generate a new configuration with stepconf (or copy a sample config provided with emc2) 2. once the configuration is somehow working (and you are not satisfied with it), you can start changing things in the ini and hal files 3. tweak the config (also observe the results via halscope similar helpers - physical scope, etc) until it does what you want Maybe these things will need a better description in the User Manual. Can you check the docs for 2.3 and see if they represent the ideas presented above? Maybe you have some suggestions where we can improve things. (big warning signs, etc ;) I think the main warning sign should read: Stepconf is a helper program that (for some cases) generates a usefull configuration for emc2. If you're not lucky enough to be inside those general cases (maybe 80% of users should be), then you'd have to set up your configuration the traditional way (which implies reading and understanding a lot of things in the ini file). snip Seriously: After all my efforts I am inclined to exclude all other causes of the misbehaviour than stepconf. Is it really true that nobody ever reported problems with the test axis function of stepconf? Maybe it has been fixed in 2.3? I have the impression that it must be a minor bug when counting the pulses because there is a connection with the microstep feature. I haven't heard of people using test axis to test the functionality of an emc2 config. Using emc2 is so much more versatile (you can specify dwells, feed rates, etc). There have been some fixes for stepgen for 2.3 (for example it can generate non-double step configs, like the one you needed). I am aware that expositions now have caught all the attention of the gang. But when NAMES and EMC expo are over, please someone would have a look at this? NAMES is really unrelated to this topic. The EMC Fest, however, is a place for developers (and not only) to get together and look together at certain things that need improving. Most likely stepconf (or derivatives) will be looked at with that occasion. Regards, Alex -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Bug in stepconf?
Hello Alex, thank you for the thorough explanations. snip lots of impressive testing I did this for the reason of anger - I had intended doing great things with automatization of my machines and got stuck at the very first step, so I decided to get to the bottom of things eliminating every cause but stepconf. Note that I did all this with the test axis function of stepconf because this is a very convenient way to see the result of parameter variations immediately. Well, that wasn't the intent of test axis, at least not for some parts of what you did. Stepconf is a helping tool that helps new users come up with a stepper configuration. Still, the test function should not present a 5/4 beat, discouraging the beginner! By all means you don't have to use stepconf to run emc2. It was the first thing I tripped over after installation and it seemed an easy to use access to EMC2. There are also (a lot) of sample configurations which you can adapt to your system, Now that I have dealt a lot with EMC2 I begin to understand them. or you can always write a configuration up from scratch (this is probably a tedious task, and few people actually do it). I surely will, and if it's only for the effect of learning. Test axis is a way to test the numbers you entered and pins you selected in stepconf, to see if everything is set up right and the motors are moving. Moving all right, so I know the pins are functional, but the terrible performance let me, being unexperienced, think there must be errors or mistakes in what I did, so I didn't dare to go on. If you change a configuration (the ini and hal files) generated by stepconf, then there are some cave-eats: * you can't run stepconf again on that configuration, or your changes will be lost I found that in the manuals and somone told me on the mailing list in February. * if you run stepconf on that configuration, it won't pick up the changes you made to the ini and hal files, so you won't notice any improvements * if you change the .stepconf file, then stepconf will see the changes you've done, but it's probably hard/not really usefull to do so. I've learned this the hard way. The best way to go on about this is: 1. generate a new configuration with stepconf (or copy a sample config provided with emc2) 2. once the configuration is somehow working (and you are not satisfied with it), you can start changing things in the ini and hal files 3. tweak the config (also observe the results via halscope similar helpers - physical scope, etc) until it does what you want That were my plans from the beginning and that's what I'm going to do now, but I first wanted to have the stepper motors run smoothly. Maybe these things will need a better description in the User Manual. Could even better be on the entry mask of stepconf. There is an old german saying: By the time you have learned to operate the thing by trying, you'll understand the instructions manual, too. In January, I have printed about 5 cm of manuals, double sided, read across them a little and then started system installation. I guess now I'll be able to understand the terms of EMC2 and I'm going through the books once again, this time with more likely success. Can you check the docs for 2.3 and see if they represent the ideas presented above? Maybe you have some suggestions where we can improve things. (big warning signs, etc ;) I feel very honored by this proposal and will use part of my Easter vacation to do this. I think the main warning sign should read: Stepconf is a helper program that (for some cases) generates a usefull configuration for emc2. Put it on the entry mask! If you're not lucky enough to be inside those general cases (maybe 80% of users should be), then you'd have to set up your configuration the traditional way (which implies reading and understanding a lot of things in the ini file). This reading and understanding is what I intended (I don't want to earn money with my machinery). I was going to write my own software when my son told me about EMC2. Before this, I had good success with a very primitive setup: modified EAGLE files (with MS Word), read into Excel to take care of the scale factors and the trajectories and succession of the axis movements, back into Word for the command syntax, then read into a DOS-based demo program that came with the EMIS driver card, and the home made coordinate drilling machine produced a PCB board at the rate of a hole in about 3-5 seconds. With my other little table top mill, I made dozens of perfect gear wheels in just the same manner and then extended this to the large mill, milling a superb set of change gears for the lathe. I haven't heard of people using test axis to test the functionality of an emc2 config. I didn't even come to test the EMC functionality, but got stuck at the motor hookup. There have been some fixes for stepgen for 2.3 (for example it can generate non-double step configs, like the one you needed). I
[Emc-users] EMC in South West UK
Hi EMC UK? Is there anyone in the South West of England who runs EMC at a level beyond basic newbie who would not mind a visit from someone who wants to understand the subtleties of this excellent software? Wistfully Aaron Re-Form Furniture Aaron Moore Conileigh Skinners Bottom Redruth Cornwall TR16 5DY Tel: 01209 890084 Mob: 07517143249 Email: aaronmo...@linuxmail.org Web: www.re-formfurniture.co.uk = Online CPR/BLS Training #1Choice-Teachers Healthcare Pros. Nationwide Skills. Enroll now. http://a8-asy.a8ww.net/a8-ads/adftrclick?redirectid=d100ba2ac41f5757e9283c0813e178bb -- Powered by Outblaze -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] EMC in South West UK
Im in the east midlands, there are others dotted around the country but you can also chat with some live online at any time of day/night on IRC #emc on irc.freenode.net, also look at this page for ideas http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Case_Studies Some also post videos on youtube Dave Caroline -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] EMC in South West UK
Hello community, I think Aaron had a great idea. How about a world map showing the places where EMC addicts are so we could visit each other and profit from their experiences? I guess it would be quite around the world with the center of gravity in the US. Peter Blodow At 15:09 03.04.2009, you wrote: Hi EMC UK? Is there anyone in the South West of England who runs EMC at a level beyond basic newbie who would not mind a visit from someone who wants to understand the subtleties of this excellent software? Wistfully Aaron Re-Form Furniture Aaron Moore Conileigh Skinners Bottom Redruth Cornwall TR16 5DY Tel: 01209 890084 Mob: 07517143249 Email: aaronmo...@linuxmail.org Web: www.re-formfurniture.co.uk = Online CPR/BLS Training #1Choice-Teachers Healthcare Pros. Nationwide Skills. Enroll now. http://a8-asy.a8ww.net/a8-ads/adftrclick?redirectid=d100ba2ac41f5757e9283c0813e178bb -- Powered by Outblaze -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] EMC in South West UK
Peter, Er, you mean like this? http://www.frappr.com/emc2/ :) Regards, Eric Hello community, I think Aaron had a great idea. How about a world map showing the places where EMC addicts are so we could visit each other and profit from their experiences? I guess it would be quite around the world with the center of gravity in the US. -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] EMC in South West UK
I'm in Bideford. I run my lathe with EMC but currently it is in bits as I am transferring the electronics into a better machine. Les aaron moore wrote: Hi EMC UK? Is there anyone in the South West of England who runs EMC at a level beyond basic newbie who would not mind a visit from someone who wants to understand the subtleties of this excellent software? Wistfully Aaron -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] EMC in South West UK
Eric H. Johnson wrote: Peter, Er, you mean like this? http://www.frappr.com/emc2/ that was pointed to me earlier on IRC but the map part was broken unfortunately. I too am interested to get in touch with local users to exchange experience and possibly mutual support. SF (south) bay area anybody? :) Regards, Eric Hello community, I think Aaron had a great idea. How about a world map showing the places where EMC addicts are so we could visit each other and profit from their experiences? I guess it would be quite around the world with the center of gravity in the US. -- Rafael -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] EMC in South West UK
hi there i am based over cambridgeshire in the Fens in east anglia. i am currently fitting EMC to one of our old VMC see here http://cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73943 i have been doing a bit on and off when not to bussy with real work ;) but its now back together and i should have switch on real soon. once this mill is converted, i will be looking to convert one of our Hardinge Superslant Lathes over which has now gone and died on us has an old Fanuc 6T so time for upgrade as too costly for spares realy. we also have a little Hardinge HNC waiting to be done and converted which has got some new servo motors waiting for it and other goodies there seems to have become quite a UK base of EMC users latly or they have just come out of hiding! maybe soon we should look at a UK meet some where? always heaps of space here and plenty of free units we can use for a weekend for nowt. rob -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
[Emc-users] Users Locations
What about posting a section / page on the WIKI site of users who would not mind having someone contact them for a visit now and then. It could be sectioned off by country, region or state. Jim Combs - Lexington, Ky -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
[Emc-users] Home made spindle encoder question.
My lathe has a 100 slotted disc on the spindle, with one opto switch fitted so far, the slot for that is longer than the others and gets me one pulse per rev. It works fine to 3500 rpm as a rev counter. I want to add two more opto's to get me an A and B channel to enable spindle control for threading under EMC. Motor reverse is essential too. Are there any specifics as to the positioning of the opto's in relation to each other? Do they need to be only a few slots apart, or more? I think that the A B need to be 1/2 slot out of sync - is that correct? Thanks Steve Blackmore -- -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Home made spindle encoder question.
On Fri, 3 Apr 2009, Steve Blackmore wrote: Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 21:23:41 +0100 From: Steve Blackmore st...@pilotltd.net To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: [Emc-users] Home made spindle encoder question. My lathe has a 100 slotted disc on the spindle, with one opto switch fitted so far, the slot for that is longer than the others and gets me one pulse per rev. It works fine to 3500 rpm as a rev counter. I want to add two more opto's to get me an A and B channel to enable spindle control for threading under EMC. Motor reverse is essential too. Are there any specifics as to the positioning of the opto's in relation to each other? Do they need to be only a few slots apart, or more? I think that the A B need to be 1/2 slot out of sync - is that correct? Yes, 1/2 slot (90 degrees) OPTOSs can be N+1/2 slots apart, but on same slot is probably better for minimizing quadrature distortion (and possible miscounts) due to errors in your wheel Thanks Steve Blackmore -- -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your ()_() signature to help him gain world domination. -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Users Locations
I think the webpage could be a better place than the wiki. If there are enough people out there who are ok with doing this, we can add a community-module to linuxcnc.org, so every registered user can set up a profile with pictures, links, personal information, etc. Let me know if there are people who would consider doing such a thing, and based on the feedback we'll be looking if it's worth the trouble ;) Regards, Alex - Original Message - From: Jim Combs jco...@lexmark.com To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 22:43 Subject: [Emc-users] Users Locations What about posting a section / page on the WIKI site of users who would not mind having someone contact them for a visit now and then. It could be sectioned off by country, region or state. Jim Combs - Lexington, Ky -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Users Locations
Great idea. Might be nice for regional gatherings. Time to point to http://www.frappr.com/emc2 again, there's a nice map of EMC2 users - but are there really only two users in the whole of the Netherlands? We're not that small a country !? Cheers, Rob On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 9:43 PM, Jim Combs jco...@lexmark.com wrote: What about posting a section / page on the WIKI site of users who would not mind having someone contact them for a visit now and then. It could be sectioned off by country, region or state. Jim Combs - Lexington, Ky -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Users Locations
Alex, I think the webpage could be a better place than the wiki. If there are enough people out there who are ok with doing this, we can add a community-module to linuxcnc.org, so every registered user can set up a profile with pictures, links, personal information, etc. Let me know if there are people who would consider doing such a thing, and based on the feedback we'll be looking if it's worth the trouble ;) I will definitely add my credentials. Question is who else will. The frappr map has been there for some time but there is only a very limited amount of users on the map. Rob -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Home made spindle encoder question.
On Fri, 2009-04-03 at 21:23 +0100, Steve Blackmore wrote: My lathe has a 100 slotted disc on the spindle, with one opto switch fitted so far, the slot for that is longer than the others and gets me one pulse per rev. It works fine to 3500 rpm as a rev counter. I want to add two more opto's to get me an A and B channel to enable spindle control for threading under EMC. Motor reverse is essential too. Are there any specifics as to the positioning of the opto's in relation to each other? Do they need to be only a few slots apart, or more? I think that the A B need to be 1/2 slot out of sync - is that correct? Thanks Steve Blackmore Just in case, I've seen some spindle disks using holes, the slots and fingers should be the same width so that you get a 50% duty cycle. A ___|^^^|___|^^^|___ B _|^^^|___|^^^|___|^ Another thing comes to mind, as an edge goes by the light has an analog transition that is squared up by the receiver at some on/off and off/on point. It seems that for DIY encoders you would want to be able to adjust that on and off trip point, so that you could get a 50% duty cycle. Although it may not really matter in practice. - Kirk http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/ -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Users Locations
Gentlemen, I will be happy to add my information and welcome visitors at any time. Stuart On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 4:50 PM, Rob Jansen r...@myvoice.nl wrote: Alex, I think the webpage could be a better place than the wiki. If there are enough people out there who are ok with doing this, we can add a community-module to linuxcnc.org, so every registered user can set up a profile with pictures, links, personal information, etc. Let me know if there are people who would consider doing such a thing, and based on the feedback we'll be looking if it's worth the trouble ;) I will definitely add my credentials. Question is who else will. The frappr map has been there for some time but there is only a very limited amount of users on the map. Rob -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- you can lead a person to knowledge but you cannot make him think -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] EMC in South West UK
Yup, Palo Alto. Glenn -Original Message- From: emc-users-boun...@lists.sourceforge.net [mailto:emc-users-boun...@lists.sourceforge.net] On Behalf Of Rafael Skodlar Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 12:33 PM To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) Subject: Re: [Emc-users] EMC in South West UK Eric H. Johnson wrote: Peter, Er, you mean like this? http://www.frappr.com/emc2/ that was pointed to me earlier on IRC but the map part was broken unfortunately. I too am interested to get in touch with local users to exchange experience and possibly mutual support. SF (south) bay area anybody? :) Regards, Eric Hello community, I think Aaron had a great idea. How about a world map showing the places where EMC addicts are so we could visit each other and profit from their experiences? I guess it would be quite around the world with the center of gravity in the US. -- Rafael -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Home made spindle encoder question.
Steve Blackmore wrote: My lathe has a 100 slotted disc on the spindle, with one opto switch fitted so far, the slot for that is longer than the others and gets me one pulse per rev. It works fine to 3500 rpm as a rev counter. I want to add two more opto's to get me an A and B channel to enable spindle control for threading under EMC. Motor reverse is essential too. Are there any specifics as to the positioning of the opto's in relation to each other? Do they need to be only a few slots apart, or more? I think that the A B need to be 1/2 slot out of sync - is that correct? They need to have a 90 degree phase relationship - that's the definition of quadrature. So, just as one sensor is dead center in the slot, the other should be right on the edge. The actual spacing in number of slots between the sensors is not important. But, in any case, they should be some full slot multiple, plus 1/4 of a slot, apart. Jon -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Users Locations
Rob Jansen wrote: Alex, I think the webpage could be a better place than the wiki. If there are enough people out there who are ok with doing this, we can add a community-module to linuxcnc.org, so every registered user can set up a profile with pictures, links, personal information, etc. Let me know if there are people who would consider doing such a thing, and based on the feedback we'll be looking if it's worth the trouble ;) I will definitely add my credentials. Question is who else will. The frappr map has been there for some time but there is only a very limited amount of users on the map. Possibly because it doesn't work well with Linux systems! I tried it, when it first comes up you see a satellite view for a couple seconds, then the whole thing goes white. If you refresh the view, it starts panning all over, and seems that you have no control over what it is doing. Pictures of people appear at random for a while, the earth is gone, just the stars for locations remain. If this is what it does for others, no wonder few people use it. Having a Windows-only app for a Linux-based group is not a great thing. Jon -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Home made spindle encoder question.
Why is it important that the signals be close to 90 degrees out of phase? Here's why: imagine they're some smaller amount (e.g., 45 degrees). That means that there's a smaller time for at least one of the 4 states of the quadrature progression at any given speed. In the 45 degree case, it makes the maximum accurate count rate only half of what it could optimally be for a perfect 90 degree phase differences. Jeff -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Users Locations
Jon Elson wrote: Rob Jansen wrote: Alex, I think the webpage could be a better place than the wiki. If there are enough people out there who are ok with doing this, we can add a community-module to linuxcnc.org, so every registered user can set up a profile with pictures, links, personal information, etc. Let me know if there are people who would consider doing such a thing, and based on the feedback we'll be looking if it's worth the trouble ;) I will definitely add my credentials. Question is who else will. The frappr map has been there for some time but there is only a very limited amount of users on the map. Possibly because it doesn't work well with Linux systems! I tried it, when it first comes up you see a satellite view for a couple seconds, then the whole thing goes white. If you refresh the view, it starts panning all over, and seems that you have no control over what it is doing. Pictures of people appear at random for a while, the earth is gone, just the stars for locations remain. If this is what it does for others, no wonder few people use it. Having a Windows-only app for a Linux-based group is not a great thing. Jon That's about the same thing I see. Part of south east US is visible for a few seconds then the random pictures appear. That website is a neat idea but it's not standards compliant therefor unusable to many f us. A web page with user, email, city, and possibly a link to some website is all that's needed IMO. Those who want to get together can simply use email. I would not object if anybody wants to advertise their business address there. -- Rafael -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
