Re: [Emc-users] Soft starting my mills spindle supply

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 13 December 2015 05:26:48 Andy Pugh wrote:

> > On 13 Dec 2015, at 02:32, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> >
> > I have managed to source ancient motor controller box, originally
> > intended to serve as a bidirectional motor controller serviced by a
> > 3 phase circuit.
>
> How about a different plan?
>
> Feed the cap bank through a resistor.
> Use a (cheap $5) solid state relay to bypass that resistor when
> LinuxCNC is turned on.
>
I had largely discounted that idea because the first cycle surge is 
likely high enough to fuse a 40 amp Crydom. It trips a 20 amp service 
breaker instantly when its master switch is closed. That would also be 
complicated by needing a high side drive for it.  And doubled in parts 
count because its actually two 63 volt supplies in series, both of which 
would need to be controlled.  So I'll do it at the AC line in point just 
for this supply. Besides, this rusty old box with $400 worth of power 
contactors was free except for the fuel for my WV Caddy.  Its about 30 
miles one way to Daves place.  Last 4.1 is single lane, part blacktop, 
part mud, 20 mph back country road. He has a concert venue of sorts, 
called River Rocks, and has done several charity things that worked well 
because the headliners were usually The Gratefull Dead.  That of course 
brings in the drugs with the "Deadheads" that follow those scenes.

Local LE usually busts a few for posession.  And that spoils the charity 
aspect.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Some mill pix are at:
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Soft starting my mills spindle supply

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 13 December 2015 02:38:25 Erik Christiansen wrote:

> On 12.12.15 21:32, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > But I suspect that 90 volts (cap input filter) is still way too much
> > for those coils over any time period in excess of 2 or 3 minutes.
> >
> > So, how much more do I need to reduce the coil voltage in order to
> > run them at a reasonable temperature on DC?
> >
> > I have some other toroid trannies that might be more suited for this
> > as I suspect the operation from DC can probably be reliably done
> > with 30 volts w/o baking the coils.
> >
> > Does anyone else have similar experience who can toss a few words my
> > way on this?
>
> They might hold on 30v, but I don't see them pulling in on it. If the
> relay is switched well after power-up, then a resistor feed of DC to a
> middle-sized electrolytic briefly provides full pull-in voltage via
> whatever switches the coil current, and the resistor is scaled for
> coolness, according to taste. (Well, finger-burn, actually.)

Noted also. :) The supply will be available as soon as the master switch 
is closed.  The rest will be  LCNC controlled.

Cap choices currently in that drawer are both too many uf's, and likely 
not enough voltage.  With the local rat shack gone, I have to get this 
stuff online.  So projects that ought to be an hour or 3, turn into 10 
or 20 day projects, which is frustrating to put it nicely. Ebay is out, 
and will be till late this week as I am having them nuke all my accounts 
so I can setup a new one that works.

> Now, to "unsimplicate", if that is the builder's bent, there are
> gadgets like: http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/drv120.pdf , located by
> a quick google for "pwm solenoid relay driver".
>
> There are doubtless other ways to cook this cat, variously attractive,
> depending on ingredients to hand.

Which does have a lot to do with it, "when all you have is a hammer" etc 
etc. :)  Season to taste. ;)
>
Thanks  Erik
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Some mill pix are at:
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Probe

[John Thornton]

Does it have a way to center the stylus?

I'm going to try this one

http://deepgroove1.com/stainlessprobe/stainlessprobe.htm

JT

On 12/12/2015 6:28 PM, Jim Craig wrote:
> I use the one from CNC 4 PC. It works pretty good and is relatively
> inexpensive.
>
> I made some videos about using it. They are on the YouTube.
>
> On 12/12/2015 3:20 PM, John Thornton wrote:
>> I could use a probe on my BP Series 1 with Anilam CNC conversion but
>> don't have time to make one. Any suggestions for a US probe?
>>
>> JT
>>
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Re: [Emc-users] Soft starting my mills spindle supply

[Andy Pugh]

> On 13 Dec 2015, at 02:32, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> 
> I have managed to source ancient motor controller box, originally 
> intended to serve as a bidirectional motor controller serviced by a 3 
> phase circuit.

How about a different plan?

Feed the cap bank through a resistor.
Use a (cheap $5) solid state relay to bypass that resistor when LinuxCNC is 
turned on. 



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Re: [Emc-users] Soft starting my mills spindle supply

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 13 December 2015 00:27:50 Jon Elson wrote:

> On 12/12/2015 08:32 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > As I'd druther not have to listen to those contactors humm & buzz
> > when powered by 120 AC, my thoughts are to use that transformer as a
> > step down, feeding the nominally (I haven't measured it yet) into a
> > bridge, feeding the contactor coils with somewhat filtered DC from
> > that, which ought to silence them.
> >
> > But I suspect that 90 volts (cap input filter) is still way too much
> > for those coils over any time period in excess of 2 or 3 minutes.
> >
> > So, how much more do I need to reduce the coil voltage in order to
> > run them at a reasonable temperature on DC?
>
> This won't work.  AC contactors depend on the change in
> inductance when the armature slams home into the stator.
> So, they pull a lot of current when in the un-energized
> position, and then the current drops drastically when
> pulled-in.  The only way to do this is to have an NC contact
> that delivers full current to the coil until it is pulled
> in, then opens to put a resistor in series with the coil.
>
> Jon
>
That was also addressed in a google finding, but from a different angle, 
by noting that the DC relay normally had a non-magnetic shim between the 
poles, maintaining a fixed separation that reduced the possibility of a 
residual magnetism hang closed when the coil was turned off.  Those that 
I have seen often used a piece of kaptan or similar sheeting, sometimes 
thin brass shim stock just 2 or 3 thou thick.

I haven't removed one of these from the box yet so I've no clue how 
difficult that might be with this relay type.  Another article I read 
last night said that coil currents would be similar at an applied 
voltage in the 34 volt range. Power disappation in the coil is about 
1/3rd to 14 what it would be when driven by std line voltage, a definite 
plus. 

Whether that would give a solid pullin will have to be determined. 

Because they are 3 phase, 3PST, I'll use all 3 contacts in series as 
insurance against one of them becoming momentarily welded on closeing.  
All this will be done in the AC line input, so its basically an unplug 
that supplies power cord from the switched strip, plug this box into the 
empty socket, and plug that supply into a duplex on the output of this 
box. A 51 ohm 200 watt wirewound bypassed by the second, delayed action 
contactor, will supply the initial soft current limit. Switch it all 
with some hal code looking at the 2nd button from the left at the top of 
the axis screen.  Thats tallied by the hal pin motion.motion-enabled 
IIRC.

No clue how much progress I'll make today, I have to clean myself up as 
we are headed to a motel next to the hospital where Dee will get a 
cataract removed first thing Monday morning, then we do it all over 
again for the other eye a week later.

So this project might be on hold until later Monday afternoon after my 
lady is back home & cared for.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Some mill pix are at:
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Probe

[Jim Craig]

Yep that is the first video in the series.

I have not had time lately to work on additional videos. I have been 
building my new workshop to put my metalworking tools in. I am almost 
done with it. I will be moving the milling machine to the workshop this 
week. I hope to make some new videos in the next month or so.



On 12/12/2015 9:12 PM, Jeremy Jones wrote:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcazGaRj9Xs
>
> Guessing that's the first video. Good video, thanks. I subscribed to your
> channel.
>
> On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 7:28 PM, Jim Craig 
> wrote:
>
>> I use the one from CNC 4 PC. It works pretty good and is relatively
>> inexpensive.
>>
>> I made some videos about using it. They are on the YouTube.
>>
>> On 12/12/2015 3:20 PM, John Thornton wrote:
>>> I could use a probe on my BP Series 1 with Anilam CNC conversion but
>>> don't have time to make one. Any suggestions for a US probe?
>>>
>>> JT
>>>
>>>
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Re: [Emc-users] Probe

[Bruce Layne]

On 12/13/2015 09:21 AM, Jim Craig wrote:
> It has one feature that I would like, a ruby stylus.

It has one feature that I like.  The $25 replacement ruby tip probe is 
half the price of the replacement probe tip for the Haimer Zero Master.  
They should either sell the replacement probes in packs of a dozen for 
$100, or give away the Haimer to ensure future sales of the delicate probe$.

The http://deepgroove1.com page made a big deal out of the high tech 
contact material that allows more switch contact operations before 
carbon buildup results in switch failure on their probe.  If we wired 
probes with three wires (+V, COM, and the probe signal) instead of just 
two wires for switch contacts, we could have some active electronics in 
the probe and use some optical or capacitive or inductive non-contact 
method to generate the probe signal without any contact degradation.




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Re: [Emc-users] Probe

[Lester Caine]

On 13/12/15 14:26, John Thornton wrote:
> I looked at the wildhorse one several times... but didn't see a way to 
> set the probe center.

There are three set-screws to fine tune the centring of the probe. Check
out video 4 on http://www.wildhorse-innovations.com/support/EPAssem.html
but alignment is one of the reasons Gary stopped shipping it as a kit.
Needs care during assemble to get things close to central.

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

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Re: [Emc-users] Probe

[Dave Caroline]

On a cmm the probe can be calibrated around a reference ball in
multiple directions to get the effective diameter of the stylus ball,
this should be done whenever the stylus is changed.

This can also calibrate out the variation in different directions
caused by the variation in contact force needed to break the contact,
some probes have a contact force adjustment at the rear which forces
the stylus downwards, while lightening the force reduces stylus
bending it also makes the electrical contact less good so is a
compromise.

More modern probes use a force sensor to get around the kinematic
design problem.

Dave Caroline

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Re: [Emc-users] Probe

[Lester Caine]

On 13/12/15 12:08, John Thornton wrote:
> Does it have a way to center the stylus?
> 
> I'm going to try this one
> 
> http://deepgroove1.com/stainlessprobe/stainlessprobe.htm

Another option
http://www.wildhorse-innovations.com/index.php?_a=viewProd=80

-- 
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-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

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Re: [Emc-users] Probe

[Jim Craig]

John,

My second video shows how to center the stylus. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=na6PzAlWdIw

The one you are looking at looks like a good probe. If  you get it let 
us know how it works. It has one feature that I would like, a ruby stylus.

Jim

On 12/13/2015 6:08 AM, John Thornton wrote:
> Does it have a way to center the stylus?
>
> I'm going to try this one
>
> http://deepgroove1.com/stainlessprobe/stainlessprobe.htm
>
> JT
>
> On 12/12/2015 6:28 PM, Jim Craig wrote:
>> I use the one from CNC 4 PC. It works pretty good and is relatively
>> inexpensive.
>>
>> I made some videos about using it. They are on the YouTube.
>>
>> On 12/12/2015 3:20 PM, John Thornton wrote:
>>> I could use a probe on my BP Series 1 with Anilam CNC conversion but
>>> don't have time to make one. Any suggestions for a US probe?
>>>
>>> JT
>>>
>>> --
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>>>
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Re: [Emc-users] Probe

[Jim Craig]

On 12/13/2015 7:50 AM, Lester Caine wrote:
> On 13/12/15 12:08, John Thornton wrote:
>> Does it have a way to center the stylus?
>>
>> I'm going to try this one
>>
>> http://deepgroove1.com/stainlessprobe/stainlessprobe.htm
> Another option
> http://www.wildhorse-innovations.com/index.php?_a=viewProd=80
>
Lester,

That one looks like the Arnie Minear probe from CNC 4 PC. Pretty similar 
anyway.

Jim

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Re: [Emc-users] Z axis stepper gradually losing position

[Ben Potter]

> And that would mean that direction is changed one step later. Which is
fine, because the next direction change would also be done one step later
and thus overall distance of travel still is the same.
> How do I invert a step pin in HAL? I did not see anything in "stepgen"
> section in hostmot2 doc page. Or is it done by treating it as a gpio pin
with the invert_output parameter (with finding out particular pin number
that corresponds to particular step pin)?

Yes, the relevant lines in each section for me look something like:

setp   hm2_5i25.0.gpio.006.invert_output true

> I would like to thank everybody for the ideas, my current to-do list looks
like this:
> 0) update LinuxCNC to 2.7.something to use new tp (will provide smoother
execution as the g-code consists of small g1 moves);
> 1) try inverted step pin;
> 2) recheck steplen, stepspace, dirsetup and dirhold parameters and
increase them, if possible;

When going through my testing for this the first time I cranked all 4
settings up to 10,000 - the problem still occurred. After I tried inverting
the output I slowly stepped them back down - for my G540 I settled on
700/700/2000/2000.

I can run with lower timings than that, but am more prone to losing steps on
heavy cuts, as they are I stall my spindle before I overload the steppers.
Losing steps is thankfully rare now.

> 3) recheck maxaccel values and do a test with considerably lower values;
> 4) if the issue is still there - use dial indicator to actually measure
exact error, torture the machine a little more and then post here again :))
>
> Viesturs

Another option that may be possible is putting a temporary encoder on the z
axis motor - even running it open loop you should be able to find out if a
discrepancy is still occurring after each change.

Ben


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Re: [Emc-users] Probe

[John Thornton]

I looked at the wildhorse one several times... but didn't see a way to 
set the probe center.

JT

On 12/13/2015 7:50 AM, Lester Caine wrote:
> On 13/12/15 12:08, John Thornton wrote:
>> Does it have a way to center the stylus?
>>
>> I'm going to try this one
>>
>> http://deepgroove1.com/stainlessprobe/stainlessprobe.htm
> Another option
> http://www.wildhorse-innovations.com/index.php?_a=viewProd=80
>


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Re: [Emc-users] Probe

[Ken Strauss]

I have no idea where it is made but the one from Tormach is well finished,
uses standard probe tips and I've been reasonably happy with mine.
See http://www.tormach.com/store/index.php?app=ecom=prodshow=32309

To answer another's point, I have made replacement tips for mine using 3mm
carbide rod and a 5mm ball bearing. Cost is only a few dollars and they bend
less than the commercial ones. See
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/tormach-personal-cnc-mill/282272-passive-probe
-accuracy-issue.html for an enlightening discussion of the bending problem.


> -Original Message-
> From: John Thornton [mailto:j...@gnipsel.com]
> Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2015 4:21 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: [Emc-users] Probe
>
> I could use a probe on my BP Series 1 with Anilam CNC conversion but don't
> have time to make one. Any suggestions for a US probe?
>
> JT
>
>

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Re: [Emc-users] Z axis stepper gradually losing position

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 13 December 2015 07:22:52 Ben Potter wrote:

> > And that would mean that direction is changed one step later. Which
> > is
>
> fine, because the next direction change would also be done one step
> later and thus overall distance of travel still is the same.
>
> > How do I invert a step pin in HAL? I did not see anything in
> > "stepgen" section in hostmot2 doc page. Or is it done by treating it
> > as a gpio pin
>
> with the invert_output parameter (with finding out particular pin
> number that corresponds to particular step pin)?
>
> Yes, the relevant lines in each section for me look something like:
>
> setp   hm2_5i25.0.gpio.006.invert_output true
>
> > I would like to thank everybody for the ideas, my current to-do list
> > looks
>
> like this:
> > 0) update LinuxCNC to 2.7.something to use new tp (will provide
> > smoother
>
> execution as the g-code consists of small g1 moves);
>
> > 1) try inverted step pin;
> > 2) recheck steplen, stepspace, dirsetup and dirhold parameters and
>
> increase them, if possible;
>
> When going through my testing for this the first time I cranked all 4
> settings up to 10,000 - the problem still occurred. After I tried
> inverting the output I slowly stepped them back down - for my G540 I
> settled on 700/700/2000/2000.

The Gecko 540 is not in the charts of our wiki, darnit. What is there 
isn't even that fast. See:



I take it you do not have any opto-isolation in those 3 paths.  That 700 
ns is pushing an opto's ability to switch that fast.  The BoB I used was 
all opto, and I was warned about its speed by someone (Steve Stallings?) 
on this list. I don't recall which channel now, but I had to remove one 
of them and jumper across it. I think there are probably faster opto's 
about, but what I saw on the scope just wasn't up to getting the job 
done. All the loads that BoB see's are already isolated, so I wasn't 
terribly concerned about losing one stage of isolation.

All my drivers are just 3 types, 2M542's, 2m860 and Pico pwm-servo's for 
2 of the 3 spindles at my place.  And I'm not pushing any of them that 
fast.  But because of that slow BoB, ISTR I am running dir setup and dir 
hold about 1.5x longer than the wiki shows for the LeadShines.  So my 
experience is not with a wide range of drivers, but I will no longer 
consider opto-isolated BoB's because everything I have is already 
isolated. Best BoB IMO, 10ns response times, but its been taken down, is 
the cnc4pc C1G that I have 2 of.  What he is selling now is NOT the 
versions I have. Everything on mine has an led tally, which simplifies 
troubleshooting considerably.

Also, generally, where you have the choice of commonizing the + terminal 
of a driver loads input, you are far better off doing that, and having 
the BoB pull it to ground as the pulldown in most TTL circuits is much 
more robust. Having the reverse setup, where the - terminals are 
commonized, is generally NOT a good idea due to a lesser amount of 
pullup power to light up the opto in the drivers own input.

> I can run with lower timings than that, but am more prone to losing
> steps on heavy cuts, as they are I stall my spindle before I overload
> the steppers. Losing steps is thankfully rare now.
>
> > 3) recheck maxaccel values and do a test with considerably lower
> > values; 4) if the issue is still there - use dial indicator to
> > actually measure
>
> exact error, torture the machine a little more and then post here
> again :))
>
> > Viesturs
>
> Another option that may be possible is putting a temporary encoder on
> the z axis motor - even running it open loop you should be able to
> find out if a discrepancy is still occurring after each change.
>
> Ben

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Some mill pix are at:
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Probe

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 13 December 2015 08:50:37 Lester Caine wrote:

> On 13/12/15 12:08, John Thornton wrote:
> > Does it have a way to center the stylus?
> >
> > I'm going to try this one
> >
> > http://deepgroove1.com/stainlessprobe/stainlessprobe.htm
>
> Another option
> http://www.wildhorse-innovations.com/index.php?_a=viewProd=8
>0

I've been looking for one I could afford, and that one looks to be right 
up my alley, thanks Lester.


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Some mill pix are at:
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Probe

[John Thornton]

I would expect a $1200 probe to be well finished and use standard 
tips... probably much more accurate than my BP knee mill ever was.

JT

On 12/13/2015 9:11 AM, Ken Strauss wrote:
> I have no idea where it is made but the one from Tormach is well finished,
> uses standard probe tips and I've been reasonably happy with mine.
> See http://www.tormach.com/store/index.php?app=ecom=prodshow=32309
>
> To answer another's point, I have made replacement tips for mine using 3mm
> carbide rod and a 5mm ball bearing. Cost is only a few dollars and they bend
> less than the commercial ones. See
> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/tormach-personal-cnc-mill/282272-passive-probe
> -accuracy-issue.html for an enlightening discussion of the bending problem.
>
>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: John Thornton [mailto:j...@gnipsel.com]
>> Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2015 4:21 PM
>> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
>> Subject: [Emc-users] Probe
>>
>> I could use a probe on my BP Series 1 with Anilam CNC conversion but don't
>> have time to make one. Any suggestions for a US probe?
>>
>> JT
>>
>>
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Soft starting my mills spindle supply

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 13 December 2015 13:27:53 John Kasunich wrote:

> Did you ever try running the contactor on the original 120VAC to see
> if the hum is actually a problem?
>
> Many AC contactors and relays have a shorted turn around a portion
> of the core.  The current induced in that turn causes phase lag in
> that portion of the core, so between the two halves the magnetic flux
> never goes to zero and hum is dramatically reduced
>
True, and these have a shorted turn around about 1/3rd of the outside leg 
of the E core tips.  And its something I haven't checked yet. But the 
shop has enough "hum" polution as it is.  Eventually you just can't tune 
it out and it becomes distracting.  Particularly when the hum turns in 
to a buzzy rattle.  These coils are not shimmed to be motion restricted 
so the coil itself can potentially buzz all by itself.

I am running out of time today, but for that I'll have to test all 3, and 
perhaps use the quietest pair.

> Seems like a lot of effort to re-design things for DC operation.
>
>
>   John Kasunich
>   jmkasun...@fastmail.fm
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Some mill pix are at:
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Probe

[Ken Strauss]

Agreed. The one that I linked to is $256 including the TTS holder which you
may not need. I'm unsure of the source of the $1200 reference.

> -Original Message-
> From: John Thornton [mailto:j...@gnipsel.com]
> Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2015 12:20 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Probe
>
> I would expect a $1200 probe to be well finished and use standard tips...
> probably much more accurate than my BP knee mill ever was.
>
> JT
>
> On 12/13/2015 9:11 AM, Ken Strauss wrote:
> > I have no idea where it is made but the one from Tormach is well
> > finished, uses standard probe tips and I've been reasonably happy with
> mine.
> > See
> >
> http://www.tormach.com/store/index.php?app=ecom=prodshow=32
> 309
> >
> > To answer another's point, I have made replacement tips for mine using
> > 3mm carbide rod and a 5mm ball bearing. Cost is only a few dollars and
> > they bend less than the commercial ones. See
> > http://www.cnczone.com/forums/tormach-personal-cnc-mill/282272-
> passive
> > -probe -accuracy-issue.html for an enlightening discussion of the
> > bending problem.
> >
> >
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: John Thornton [mailto:j...@gnipsel.com]
> >> Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2015 4:21 PM
> >> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> >> Subject: [Emc-users] Probe
> >>
> >> I could use a probe on my BP Series 1 with Anilam CNC conversion but
> >> don't have time to make one. Any suggestions for a US probe?
> >>
> >> JT
> >>
> >>
> > --
> > --
> > --
> >> ___
> >> Emc-users mailing list
> >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> >
> > --
> >  ___
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>
>

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Re: [Emc-users] Probe

[Kirk Wallace]

On 12/13/2015 07:36 AM, Dave Caroline wrote:
> On a cmm the probe can be calibrated around a reference ball in
> multiple directions to get the effective diameter of the stylus ball,
> this should be done whenever the stylus is changed.
>
> This can also calibrate out the variation in different directions
> caused by the variation in contact force needed to break the contact,
> some probes have a contact force adjustment at the rear which forces
> the stylus downwards, while lightening the force reduces stylus
> bending it also makes the electrical contact less good so is a
> compromise.

At first, we had trouble with the Tormach economy probe. The contact can 
electrically bounce on the make or break motion. The slower the motion, 
the more chance of bouncing. This is not a huge problem on the make 
motion, but I found that retracting from the edge would sometimes cause 
enough bounce to trigger a probe triggered on non probe motion error. 
Rogge made a new probing g-code just for retracting which masks the 
trigger. I use it just long enough to retract then use normal motion.

Keeping the probe and retract speed up also helps. The accuracy doesn't 
suffer until the distance traveled between servo cycles gets bigger than 
the desired accuracy, or the encoder or step size, so slower probes 
often are not any better than moderate probe speeds.

Debouncing can prevent probe errors but the signal time delay hurts 
accuracy, so as far as I know, we don't debounce.

Centering is done with six screws that adjust the tilt between the 
housing and the arbor. Three push and three pull so there should be no 
slop between the housing and arbor.
http://www.tormach.com/uploads/474/TD10088_Passive_Probe_Install_0515A-pdf.html

There is a set of probing routines in the Tormach UI that automate 
common probing actions, including centering the probe tip. I have found 
that the centering is quite stable if one doesn't leave any push or pull 
screws loose when adjustment is done.

Tormach (and others) can provide (practice) ceramic probe styli that are 
stiff but break easily enough to protect the probe and work.


>
> More modern probes use a force sensor to get around the kinematic
> design problem.
>
> Dave Caroline
>
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-- 
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http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/

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Re: [Emc-users] Probe

[Ken Strauss]

In the posts on CNCZONE to which I linked earlier the conclusion seems to be
that the force to actuate the Tormach probe actually bends the "stiff"
ceramic staff and causes significant measurement errors. Using a larger
diameter carbide staff seems to work much better.

> -Original Message-
> From: Kirk Wallace [mailto:kwall...@wallacecompany.com]
> Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2015 12:48 PM
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Probe
>
> On 12/13/2015 07:36 AM, Dave Caroline wrote:
> > On a cmm the probe can be calibrated around a reference ball in
> > multiple directions to get the effective diameter of the stylus ball,
> > this should be done whenever the stylus is changed.
> >
> > This can also calibrate out the variation in different directions
> > caused by the variation in contact force needed to break the contact,
> > some probes have a contact force adjustment at the rear which forces
> > the stylus downwards, while lightening the force reduces stylus
> > bending it also makes the electrical contact less good so is a
> > compromise.
>
> At first, we had trouble with the Tormach economy probe. The contact can
> electrically bounce on the make or break motion. The slower the motion,
the
> more chance of bouncing. This is not a huge problem on the make motion,
but
> I found that retracting from the edge would sometimes cause enough bounce
> to trigger a probe triggered on non probe motion error.
> Rogge made a new probing g-code just for retracting which masks the
trigger. I
> use it just long enough to retract then use normal motion.
>
> Keeping the probe and retract speed up also helps. The accuracy doesn't
suffer
> until the distance traveled between servo cycles gets bigger than the
desired
> accuracy, or the encoder or step size, so slower probes often are not any
> better than moderate probe speeds.
>
> Debouncing can prevent probe errors but the signal time delay hurts
accuracy,
> so as far as I know, we don't debounce.
>
> Centering is done with six screws that adjust the tilt between the housing
and
> the arbor. Three push and three pull so there should be no slop between
the
> housing and arbor.
> http://www.tormach.com/uploads/474/TD10088_Passive_Probe_Install_0515
> A-pdf.html
>
> There is a set of probing routines in the Tormach UI that automate common
> probing actions, including centering the probe tip. I have found that the
> centering is quite stable if one doesn't leave any push or pull screws
loose
> when adjustment is done.
>
> Tormach (and others) can provide (practice) ceramic probe styli that are
stiff
> but break easily enough to protect the probe and work.
>
>
> >
> > More modern probes use a force sensor to get around the kinematic
> > design problem.
> >
> > Dave Caroline
> >
> >

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> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Kirk Wallace
> http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
> http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/
>
>

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Re: [Emc-users] Z axis stepper gradually losing position (opto coupler speed)

[Karlsson & Wang]

> ...
> I take it you do not have any opto-isolation in those 3 paths.  That 700 
> ns is pushing an opto's ability to switch that fast.  The BoB I used was 
> all opto, and I was warned about its speed by someone (Steve Stallings?) 
> on this list.
> ...

Yes opto couplers are not very fast, I think around a few hundred kilobits per 
second could be expected for opto couplers if used for UART, obviously there 
have to be some margin to unless pushing the limit is necessary.

Nicklas Karlsson

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Re: [Emc-users] Probe

[andy pugh]

On 13 December 2015 at 14:49, Bruce Layne  wrote:
>> It has one feature that I would like, a ruby stylus.
>
> It has one feature that I like.  The $25 replacement ruby tip probe is
> half the price of the replacement probe tip for the Haimer Zero Master.

Ruby probes direct from Renishaw are surprisingly inexpensive:
http://www.renishaw.com/shop/Product.aspx?Product=A-5000-3552

And they are even cheaper from eBay :-)

-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] Probe

[Kirk Wallace]

On 12/12/2015 01:20 PM, John Thornton wrote:
> I could use a probe on my BP Series 1 with Anilam CNC conversion but
> don't have time to make one. Any suggestions for a US probe?

There are a lot of videos on Tormach probing on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tormach+probe

My probing posts may seem a little spammy, but there really is a lot of 
general probing information at the links that can apply to other products.

-- 
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http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/

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Re: [Emc-users] Probe

[Andrew]

An interesting probe appeared recently
http://www.kurokesu.com/shop/index.php?route=product/product=61_id=51
http://lukse.lt/uzrasai/2015-05-precise-steel-touch-probe-for-cnc-machines-routers/
No experience though, just saying.

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Re: [Emc-users] Probe

[Bengt Sjölund]

I got some probes for sale at 
http://forum.linuxcnc.org/forum/54-user-exchange/29826-some-cnc-related-parts-4-sale

Accepting reasonable offers ;)

Cheers
Bengt

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Re: [Emc-users] Z axis stepper gradually losing position

[Ben Potter]

> > When going through my testing for this the first time I cranked all 4 
> > settings up to 10,000 - the problem still occurred. After I tried 
> > inverting the output I slowly stepped them back down - for my G540 I 
> > settled on 700/700/2000/2000.

> The Gecko 540 is not in the charts of our wiki, darnit. What is there
isn't even that fast. See:

Yeah, I've thought about adding it a couple of times - but would want to do
some more... intense testing before adding my timings there.

> 

> I take it you do not have any opto-isolation in those 3 paths.  That 700
ns is pushing an opto's ability to switch that fast.  The BoB I used was all
opto, and I was warned about its speed by someone (Steve Stallings?) on this
> list. I don't recall which channel now, but I had to remove one of them
and jumper across it. I think there are probably faster opto's about, but
what I saw on the scope just wasn't up to getting the job done. All the
loads that
> BoB see's are already isolated, so I wasn't terribly concerned about
losing one stage of isolation.

I have no additional opto-isolation in that path - I believe that the G540
uses fast opto's on all the parallel port pins (from the manual, I'm sure
there was a post on cnczone detailed the choice of isolater somewhere)

To clarify, the figures I gave were in the format
DIRSETUP/DIRHOLD/STEPLEN/STEPSPACE.

Gecko give their recommendations on timings for the drive here:
http://www.geckodrive.com/geckodrive-step-motor-drives/g540.html

Those indicate 2000 nS for '0' on-time, 1000 nS for '1' on-time, 200 nS for
direction setup and hold. So it looks like I'm just within their
recommendations on step length.

I'm hooked up to a 5i25 instead of a parport though.

> All my drivers are just 3 types, 2M542's, 2m860 and Pico pwm-servo's for
> 2 of the 3 spindles at my place.  And I'm not pushing any of them that
fast.  But because of that slow BoB, ISTR I am running dir setup and dir
hold about 1.5x longer than the wiki shows for the LeadShines.  So my
experience is not > with a wide range of drivers, but I will no longer
consider opto-isolated BoB's because everything I have is already isolated.
Best BoB IMO, 10ns response times, but its been taken down, is the cnc4pc
C1G that I have 2 of.  What he > is selling now is NOT the versions I have.
Everything on mine has an led tally, which simplifies troubleshooting
considerably.

> Also, generally, where you have the choice of commonizing the + terminal
of a driver loads input, you are far better off doing that, and having the
BoB pull it to ground as the pulldown in most TTL circuits is much more
robust. > Having the reverse setup, where the - terminals are commonized, is
generally NOT a good idea due to a lesser amount of pullup power to light up
the opto in the drivers own input.

I've gone to using mesa cards for pretty much all my interface as far as
possible, I've had odd issues with Gecko and Leadshine drives, I've managed
to work around them so far. The industrial drives I have used have generally
behaved better. Since the machines I'm converting seem to be getting larger,
I thankfully get to use servos more than steppers these days.

The one I haven't tried yet, but would be curious to see if anyone has
comments on is the Argon or Ion from Granite Devices.

Ben


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Re: [Emc-users] Soft starting my mills spindle supply

[andy pugh]

On 13 December 2015 at 11:01, Gene Heskett  wrote:
>> Feed the cap bank through a resistor.
>> Use a (cheap $5) solid state relay to bypass that resistor when
>> LinuxCNC is turned on.
>>
> I had largely discounted that idea because the first cycle surge is
> likely high enough to fuse a 40 amp Crydom. It trips a 20 amp service
> breaker instantly when its master switch is closed. That would also be
> complicated by needing a high side drive for it.

The relay won't see the surge, because what the relay does is bypass
the surge absorbing resistor.

The relay would go on the AC input side, so you would only need one.

You don't need a "high side driver", you need a 5V signal from LinuxCNC.

-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] Soft starting my mills spindle supply

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 13 December 2015 05:26:48 Andy Pugh wrote:

> > On 13 Dec 2015, at 02:32, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> >
> > I have managed to source ancient motor controller box, originally
> > intended to serve as a bidirectional motor controller serviced by a
> > 3 phase circuit.
>
> How about a different plan?
>
> Feed the cap bank through a resistor.
> Use a (cheap $5) solid state relay to bypass that resistor when
> LinuxCNC is turned on.
>
I've had a chance to remove one of them and play a bit. The concern about 
a reliable turn off from residual magnetism is valid I think.  My test 
psu is only 15.5 volts, so I have to give it a push to close, but the 
self opening as I turn down the voltage is about an even 5 volts, so it 
will definitely need a shim laid on the poles.  Current draw was about 
75 mills as 15.5 volts. The face of the poles is a fairly decent area, 
so I am going to see how it behaves with a sheet of 24lb paper for a gap 
setter. As for closing, it may be that I'have to use a resistor to limit 
the current from a higher voltage, and give it a boost with a capacitor 
to slam it down initially.  Not impossible of course, but my junk box 
isn't equipt with suitable 10 watt R's or caps to supply the initial 
strong bump. I'd have to assume the time constant wouldn't have to be 
over .1 seconds.  Time to get out my calculator...  But first a shim, 
I'd like it just thick enough that the dropout is close to what my test 
supply can do.

These look to have silver bars for contacts, and the label says 35 amp 
CW, 150 amps interrupt at 230 volts in case of a locked rotor, down to 
100 amps at 660 volts.  And surprisingly small. Without counting the 
spade lugs sticking out, nominally 2.5" cubes.  I think I hit one, for 
carrying it off as the price. :)

I took a sheet of laser printer photo paper out and cut a shim, .004" 
thick, raises the dropout to about 10.3 volts.  Its coil R is 246 ohms.
Now, heres the real kicker. A 1.5k resistor would hold it in nicely once 
closed, passing 72 mills for holding power. AND it has an aux set of 
contacts, SPDT, that could switch in that 1.5k resistor as it closes.

And my copy of kcalc says that resistor could be a 1/4 watter? Fudge, 
quit trying to run kcalc with a mouse, you have to click way too long to 
get it to register. Punch buttons again but from keyboard.  Current is 
V/R, so 126/(1500+246)=0.072 amps. Thats plenty of holding current.
Power is i2*r, so adding the coil r to get the holding current, call it 
1750 ohms total. That gets me 7.776 watts in the resistor, and 1.275264 
watts in the coil.  I can live with that.  Now to find 5 pack of 1500 
ohm 20 watt R's. But how about I steal some current from the 60 volt Z 
motor supply? As Yoda might say  thought food, is that.

Progress, I think. Till reality hits me over the head. :) If I have a 
small 2/1 toroid, I'll see about using it to isolate the coil supply.  
Goes off to check stock room.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Some mill pix are at:
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Soft starting my mills spindle supply

[John Kasunich]

Did you ever try running the contactor on the original 120VAC to see
if the hum is actually a problem?

Many AC contactors and relays have a shorted turn around a portion
of the core.  The current induced in that turn causes phase lag in that
portion of the core, so between the two halves the magnetic flux never
goes to zero and hum is dramatically reduced

Seems like a lot of effort to re-design things for DC operation.


  John Kasunich
  jmkasun...@fastmail.fm

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Re: [Emc-users] Probe

[John Thornton]

I saw that after...

On 12/13/2015 4:42 PM, jeshua wrote:
>> On Dec 13, 2015, at 3:37 PM, John Thornton  wrote:
>>
>> this is what came up in a search for me... $1259.50
>>
>> http://www.tormach.com/store/index.php?app=ecom=prodshow=31858=CJu90_ry2ckCFYGCaQod7YkPvQ
>>
>> I didn't see the $250 one.
> I see this one for $259 listed below?
>
> http://www.tormach.com/store/index.php?app=ecom=prodshow=32309
>
>
> Best,
>
> Jeshua Lacock
> Founder/Engineer
> <3DTOPO.com>
> GlassPrinted.com
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Probe

[John Thornton]

this is what came up in a search for me... $1259.50

http://www.tormach.com/store/index.php?app=ecom=prodshow=31858=CJu90_ry2ckCFYGCaQod7YkPvQ

I didn't see the $250 one.

JT

On 12/13/2015 11:37 AM, Ken Strauss wrote:
> Agreed. The one that I linked to is $256 including the TTS holder which you
> may not need. I'm unsure of the source of the $1200 reference.
>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: John Thornton [mailto:j...@gnipsel.com]
>> Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2015 12:20 PM
>> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
>> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Probe
>>
>> I would expect a $1200 probe to be well finished and use standard tips...
>> probably much more accurate than my BP knee mill ever was.
>>
>> JT
>>
>> On 12/13/2015 9:11 AM, Ken Strauss wrote:
>>> I have no idea where it is made but the one from Tormach is well
>>> finished, uses standard probe tips and I've been reasonably happy with
>> mine.
>>> See
>>>
>> http://www.tormach.com/store/index.php?app=ecom=prodshow=32
>> 309
>>> To answer another's point, I have made replacement tips for mine using
>>> 3mm carbide rod and a 5mm ball bearing. Cost is only a few dollars and
>>> they bend less than the commercial ones. See
>>> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/tormach-personal-cnc-mill/282272-
>> passive
>>> -probe -accuracy-issue.html for an enlightening discussion of the
>>> bending problem.
>>>
>>>
 -Original Message-
 From: John Thornton [mailto:j...@gnipsel.com]
 Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2015 4:21 PM
 To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
 Subject: [Emc-users] Probe

 I could use a probe on my BP Series 1 with Anilam CNC conversion but
 don't have time to make one. Any suggestions for a US probe?

 JT


>>> --
>>> --
>>> --
 ___
 Emc-users mailing list
 Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
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>>>
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>>
>>
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Probe

[John Thornton]

I saw that on in my search. Looks like a nice one, wonder where he is from?

"*Hardened steel touch probe with rubby stylus for CNC machines*"

JT

On 12/13/2015 1:35 PM, Andrew wrote:
> An interesting probe appeared recently
> http://www.kurokesu.com/shop/index.php?route=product/product=61_id=51
> http://lukse.lt/uzrasai/2015-05-precise-steel-touch-probe-for-cnc-machines-routers/
> No experience though, just saying.
>
> ---
> Andrew
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Re: [Emc-users] Probe

[jeshua]

> On Dec 13, 2015, at 3:37 PM, John Thornton  wrote:
> 
> this is what came up in a search for me... $1259.50
> 
> http://www.tormach.com/store/index.php?app=ecom=prodshow=31858=CJu90_ry2ckCFYGCaQod7YkPvQ
> 
> I didn't see the $250 one.

I see this one for $259 listed below?

http://www.tormach.com/store/index.php?app=ecom=prodshow=32309


Best,

Jeshua Lacock
Founder/Engineer
<3DTOPO.com>
GlassPrinted.com


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Re: [Emc-users] Probe

[Andrew]

2015-12-14 0:41 GMT+02:00 John Thornton :

> I saw that on in my search. Looks like a nice one, wonder where he is from?
>
> "*Hardened steel touch probe with rubby stylus for CNC machines*"


Lithuania
Free worldwide shipping though. And best offer available
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