Re: [Emc-users] drive belt for 7x12 NOT OEM

2016-06-02 Thread Gene Heskett 
On Thursday 02 June 2016 17:18:24 John Kasunich wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 2, 2016, at 03:16 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Thursday 02 June 2016 09:15:35 John Kasunich wrote:
> > > It sounds like part of the problem is a spindle pulley that
> > >  is too small.  That hurts twice.  First, it reduces the lever
> > > arm and requires more belt pull per ft-lb of torque delivered.
> > > Second, it reduces the belt wrap and number of teeth engaged,
> > > which increases the load per tooth even more.
> > >
> > > Bigger pulleys help in other ways too.  A big spindle pulley
> > > provides some flywheel effect which can reduce chatter
> > > and relieves the motor/belt of the worst shock loads.
> >
> > A larger upper pulley that drives the lathes head countershaft is
> > not possible as it runs into the rear of the spindle at about 1 more
> > cog.
>
> When I wrote that I was unaware that this lathe had gears inside
> the headstock and that the belt was driving the shaft with the
> gears rather than driving the spindle directly.
>
> I think your "bigger better lathe" approach is the right one.  But
> if for some reason I was stuck with the 7x lathe, I would ignore
> the countershaft with its plastic gears and put a nice big pulley
> on the back of the main spindle

I have considered that, John, unforch no one makes a "J" format 
polygroove pulley big enough to be usefull as 4" seems to be about tops.

I already am using the OEM 5 groove that comes on the motor as part of 
its huge fan/flywheel, which is about a 1" pitch diameter, and running 
over a 3" pulley that matches and that turns the jackshaft tht carries 
the pulley that burns up the belt, and if its the plastic OEM pulley, 
its burned up too. I'de love to use it as the horsepower ratings of that 
belt setup kick the best of the cogged belts about 3 drainages over. I 
even started to make a pulley, but can't buy the tooling to do it right 
anyplace.  To do it right, I'd need a 1" thick piece of 7078-T6 about 7" 
in its narrowest dimension, and some vcmt tooling.  And I'd machine a 
360 slot plus index encoder slot setup inside the outer rim too.  So if 
this doesn't help enough to suit me, I'll be online looking for some alu 
to make that pulley with.  But I'll have to make it on the bigger lathe 
as this one swings about 4" smaller than that needs.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
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Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] drive belt for 7x12 NOT OEM

2016-06-02 Thread Gene Heskett 
On Thursday 02 June 2016 10:40:52 John Kasunich wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 2, 2016, at 09:45 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> > On 2 June 2016 at 14:15, John Kasunich  
wrote:
> > > Unless this is a mighty slow lathe, I don't think chain is the
> > > appropriate drive mechanism.
> >
> > Silent chain has been used on a number of lathes historically:
> > http://www.lathes.co.uk/southbend/page12.html
>
> That South Bend installation had a recommended motor speed
> of 900 RPM.  Gene's lathe uses a motor that I think runs 4000 RPM.
>
> My Van Norman mill used a silent chain from the 1/4 HP 1800 RPM
> feed motor to the input shaft of the feed gearbox.  Pulley and chain
> were both worn and the chain would climb out of the teeth and
> skip.  There was enough meat on the large pulley that I could turn
> off the silent-chain teeth and re-cut XL timing belt teeth.  I put an
> off-the-shelf XL pulley on the motor and back in service.
>
> > And the cam-chain in my motorcycle runs up to 14,000 rpm.
>
> Fully enclosed and oil lubricated.  And properly engineered for
> the task.
>
> > A conventional roller chain might well not be as smooth as one might
> > like in a lathe application, though.
> >
> > I haven't posted this here yet:
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woU927Tqoo8
> > This is my current project, which is using motorcycle cam-chains to
> > drive the ball screws as an experiment.
>
> How fast do the ballscrews turn?
>
> I don't doubt that a chain could be made to work, but on a lathe
> as small as Gene's I think it is far from the ideal solution.

Progress report:

First, I cannot write gcode that really does what I want.  I wanted to 
bore a 10.004 hole to fit my homemade 10mm shaft as the new pulleys come 
with only a 1/4 bore.  So I planted a 1/4" tool in the hole, clamped it 
down and touched the machine off at x0y0. I had to keep asking it for a 
bigger hole which I did about 5 times before I managed to get a 10.010 
hole, which fit the shaft until it ran into the burrs from the 
previously tightened set screws.  So its in and turning the chuck but 
the bigger pulley is forceing to design a different method of setting a 
wedge in the jackshaft frame that I can use to tighten the belt until it 
sounds like froggy's magic twanger.  That is to prevent the frame from 
lifting under a heavy cut, giving the belt slack enough to jump teeth.

The increased diameter also means the angle bracket I put on the lathes 
casting to help hold the housing for the spindle electronics is going to 
need shortening about 5/8" and a new hole drilled for the screw.  Piddly 
stuff but it still takes time.

And I just found the jackshaft bearing thats doing all the grumbling 
recently, so once the wedge problem is solved, I"ll pull it back out and 
replace that bearing as I bought 4 of them.  Its taken quite a beating 
two or 11 times changing this darned pulley. I've lost track of how many 
of the OEM plastic pulleys I've burned up.

At that point, since machineing that wedge will be a bit of a project, I 
decided my back was done for the day, and since its almost midnight, its 
beer thirty too.  And maybe even a bowl of ice cream.

I got two stout neighbors and one supervisor, to help me pull the 
fiberglass tonneau cover off my GMC, so once I get it unloaed, I can 
load up a bandsaw I sold to an old friend in TN, and deliver it, spend 
the night since I've not seen him in person for about 15 years, then 
come back about 100 miles, rent a trailer from a local u-haul big enough 
to carry the bigger lathe I'm buying, and pull it home.  And I'm not at 
all started on clearing out enough detrious to make a place for the 
lathe.

Don't get old folks, it eats into your productive work time when it hurts 
to pick up 30 lbs these days.  Its a right bummer.  Takes too much time 
to rig a skyhook with a trolley and use a multisheave come-a-long to 
move something I could have picked up and walked off with 5 years ago.

:( But I keep plugging along.  Take care everyone.
 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] drive belt for 7x12 NOT OEM

2016-06-02 Thread John Kasunich 


On Thu, Jun 2, 2016, at 03:16 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Thursday 02 June 2016 09:15:35 John Kasunich wrote:
> > It sounds like part of the problem is a spindle pulley that
> >  is too small.  That hurts twice.  First, it reduces the lever
> > arm and requires more belt pull per ft-lb of torque delivered.
> > Second, it reduces the belt wrap and number of teeth engaged,
> > which increases the load per tooth even more.
> >
> > Bigger pulleys help in other ways too.  A big spindle pulley
> > provides some flywheel effect which can reduce chatter
> > and relieves the motor/belt of the worst shock loads.
> 
> A larger upper pulley that drives the lathes head countershaft is not 
> possible as it runs into the rear of the spindle at about 1 more cog.
> 

When I wrote that I was unaware that this lathe had gears inside
the headstock and that the belt was driving the shaft with the 
gears rather than driving the spindle directly.

I think your "bigger better lathe" approach is the right one.  But
if for some reason I was stuck with the 7x lathe, I would ignore
the countershaft with its plastic gears and put a nice big pulley
on the back of the main spindle



-- 
  John Kasunich
  jmkasun...@fastmail.fm

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Re: [Emc-users] drive belt for 7x12 NOT OEM

2016-06-02 Thread Gene Heskett 
On Thursday 02 June 2016 09:15:35 John Kasunich wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 2, 2016, at 12:34 AM, Gregg Eshelman wrote:
> > There's bound to be some roller chain size between that and bicycle
> > chain, which would be ideal for your application.
>
> Unless this is a mighty slow lathe, I don't think chain is the
> appropriate drive mechanism.
>
> It sounds like part of the problem is a spindle pulley that
>  is too small.  That hurts twice.  First, it reduces the lever
> arm and requires more belt pull per ft-lb of torque delivered.
> Second, it reduces the belt wrap and number of teeth engaged,
> which increases the load per tooth even more.
>
> Bigger pulleys help in other ways too.  A big spindle pulley
> provides some flywheel effect which can reduce chatter
> and relieves the motor/belt of the worst shock loads.

A larger upper pulley that drives the lathes head countershaft is not 
possible as it runs into the rear of the spindle at about 1 more cog.

> I've never seen this lathe, only tried to parse Gene's written
> explanations.  So I have no idea what the real limitations are
> as far as pulley size, belt width, etc.

Basically its such a poor design that I an biting the bullet and buying a 
bigger one, which I am trying to make a hole for in the detrious on my 
garage floor right now, and which I need to get tuit.
>
> A photo or two of the spindle area would help.  What are the
> real constraints on pulley size and drivetrain configuration?
>
> Also helpful would be the following:
>
> Motor rated power (hp or watts, at a particular speed)
> Motor rated speed (at which it develops rated HP)
> Motor speed range when used with the drive in question
> Desired spindle speed range
>
> From that information, you can use online resources to
> determine the proper type and size of belt and the proper
> pulleys to design a reliable drivetrain.  Once you know what
> you need, then you figure out how to make it fit.
>
> This chart is a good starting point.
> http://www.sdp-si.com/D265/HTML/D265T006.html
> Given the rated HP and the speed of the faster pulley it
> shows you which belt families can handle the power.
>
> Doing it any other way is bass-ackwards IMHO.
>
> It sounds like the existing belt is an XL series.  According
> to the chart, the maximum power for an XL belt is about
> 1/2HP at 3450 RPM, about 1/3HP at 1750 RPM.  And that
> assumes properly chosen belt widths (not 3/8") and pulley
> sizes.  If you've increased the motor beyond those limits
> (or even close to them), there is simply no way it is going
> to be reliable.
>
> Another option instead of timing belts is multi-groove
> V-belts (J series).  They have the advantage that you can
> make your own pulleys (if you have a working lathe).
> A spindle drive shouldn't need positive registration, so
> you don't really need toothed belts.


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Timing Belt Calculator

2016-06-02 Thread Gene Heskett 
On Thursday 02 June 2016 00:13:19 MC Cason wrote:

> Gene,
>
>In my email today, I received a link to a belt calculator from
> Misumi.  It asks for much more detail about your motor, and setup.   
> I figured it maybe something you could save for later use.
>
>Here's the link:
> http://fawos.misumi.jp/FA_WEB/pulley_us/index.php

Thanks, the other one always requires an enter on the first value, top 
center of the page, before it will recalc when playing what it.

>BTW, I've ordered parts from them in the past.  $8.00ish shipping
> from Japan.  For my project, I though it was pretty reasonable.

No, from Japan, thats quite reasonable, and I'd expect a higher overall 
quality too.

Thanks.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] drive belt for 7x12 NOT OEM

2016-06-02 Thread andy pugh 
On 2 June 2016 at 17:48, John Kasunich  wrote:
> Clearly the EXISTING belts are not working.

Indeed, and the problem that is trying to be fixed is to transmit 3 x
the torque using a drive system inside the same envelope as the
existing (inadequate) belt.

I agree that chain drive would be inferior to a properly-designed belt
drive. But it seems that a properly-designed belt drive is not an
option.

My solution to a very similar problem on my cheap Chinese lathe was to
throw away the belt cover and fit dual V-belts.
https://picasaweb.google.com/108164504656404380542/CNCUnsorted#5437112986322828066

I am merely trying to suggest solutions that meet the rather bizarre
boundary conditions applied to the problem. The real solution is. of
course, to buy the Sheldon he keeps talking about and re-cycle the
Chinese lathe as ballast.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] drive belt for 7x12 NOT OEM

2016-06-02 Thread John Kasunich 


On Thu, Jun 2, 2016, at 10:54 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> 
> Clearly belts are not working, so what else is there?
> 

Clearly the EXISTING belts are not working.

They were designed for the original motor and original motor controller,
and may well have been marginal for that application.

I'm 99% sure Gene has changed both motor and controller.  I know he's
using Jon Elson's motor controller, with a much higher current rating.  
I'm pretty sure he's also using a much stronger motor.  I wouldn't be 
surprised if he's doubled or even tripled the available peak torque.  
Now he has to uprate the drivetrain to match.

I've seen toothed belts used to transmit 100HP (big belts on big pulleys).
Certainly belts can do the job if sized properly.  Industrial sized lathes
(including yours I think) usually use a combination of belts and gears.
Chains are very rare in lathe drivetrains.


-- 
  John Kasunich
  jmkasun...@fastmail.fm

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Re: [Emc-users] drive belt for 7x12 NOT OEM

2016-06-02 Thread andy pugh 
On 2 June 2016 at 15:40, John Kasunich  wrote:

> That South Bend installation had a recommended motor speed
> of 900 RPM.  Gene's lathe uses a motor that I think runs 4000 RPM.

Granted.

>> And the cam-chain in my motorcycle runs up to 14,000 rpm.
>>
> Fully enclosed and oil lubricated.  And properly engineered for
> the task.

Indeed. But also good for around 450 million revolutions, and counting.
(based on the current milage of 105,000 miles and assuming it was done
at 70mph and 5000rpm)

Somewhere between the two might be a place for a lathe drive.

Clearly belts are not working, so what else is there?

> How fast do the ballscrews turn?

Nothing like as fast, about 1000 rpm.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] drive belt for 7x12 NOT OEM

2016-06-02 Thread John Kasunich 


On Thu, Jun 2, 2016, at 09:45 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 2 June 2016 at 14:15, John Kasunich  wrote:
> > Unless this is a mighty slow lathe, I don't think chain is the
> > appropriate drive mechanism.
> 
> Silent chain has been used on a number of lathes historically:
> http://www.lathes.co.uk/southbend/page12.html

That South Bend installation had a recommended motor speed
of 900 RPM.  Gene's lathe uses a motor that I think runs 4000 RPM.

My Van Norman mill used a silent chain from the 1/4 HP 1800 RPM
feed motor to the input shaft of the feed gearbox.  Pulley and chain
were both worn and the chain would climb out of the teeth and
skip.  There was enough meat on the large pulley that I could turn
off the silent-chain teeth and re-cut XL timing belt teeth.  I put an
off-the-shelf XL pulley on the motor and back in service.

> 
> And the cam-chain in my motorcycle runs up to 14,000 rpm.
> 
Fully enclosed and oil lubricated.  And properly engineered for
the task.

> A conventional roller chain might well not be as smooth as one might
> like in a lathe application, though.
> 
> I haven't posted this here yet:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woU927Tqoo8
> This is my current project, which is using motorcycle cam-chains to
> drive the ball screws as an experiment.

How fast do the ballscrews turn?

I don't doubt that a chain could be made to work, but on a lathe
as small as Gene's I think it is far from the ideal solution.

-- 
  John Kasunich
  jmkasun...@fastmail.fm

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Re: [Emc-users] drive belt for 7x12 NOT OEM

2016-06-02 Thread andy pugh 
On 2 June 2016 at 14:15, John Kasunich  wrote:
> Unless this is a mighty slow lathe, I don't think chain is the
> appropriate drive mechanism.

Silent chain has been used on a number of lathes historically:
http://www.lathes.co.uk/southbend/page12.html

And the cam-chain in my motorcycle runs up to 14,000 rpm.

A conventional roller chain might well not be as smooth as one might
like in a lathe application, though.

I haven't posted this here yet:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woU927Tqoo8
This is my current project, which is using motorcycle cam-chains to
drive the ball screws as an experiment.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] drive belt for 7x12 NOT OEM

2016-06-02 Thread John Kasunich 
On Thu, Jun 2, 2016, at 12:34 AM, Gregg Eshelman wrote:
> There's bound to be some roller chain size between that and bicycle chain, 
> which would be ideal for your application.


Unless this is a mighty slow lathe, I don't think chain is the 
appropriate drive mechanism.

It sounds like part of the problem is a spindle pulley that
 is too small.  That hurts twice.  First, it reduces the lever 
arm and requires more belt pull per ft-lb of torque delivered.
Second, it reduces the belt wrap and number of teeth engaged,
which increases the load per tooth even more.

Bigger pulleys help in other ways too.  A big spindle pulley
provides some flywheel effect which can reduce chatter
and relieves the motor/belt of the worst shock loads.

I've never seen this lathe, only tried to parse Gene's written
explanations.  So I have no idea what the real limitations are
as far as pulley size, belt width, etc.

A photo or two of the spindle area would help.  What are the
real constraints on pulley size and drivetrain configuration?

Also helpful would be the following:

Motor rated power (hp or watts, at a particular speed)
Motor rated speed (at which it develops rated HP)
Motor speed range when used with the drive in question
Desired spindle speed range

>From that information, you can use online resources to
determine the proper type and size of belt and the proper
pulleys to design a reliable drivetrain.  Once you know what
you need, then you figure out how to make it fit.

This chart is a good starting point.  
http://www.sdp-si.com/D265/HTML/D265T006.html
Given the rated HP and the speed of the faster pulley it 
shows you which belt families can handle the power.

Doing it any other way is bass-ackwards IMHO.

It sounds like the existing belt is an XL series.  According
to the chart, the maximum power for an XL belt is about
1/2HP at 3450 RPM, about 1/3HP at 1750 RPM.  And that
assumes properly chosen belt widths (not 3/8") and pulley
sizes.  If you've increased the motor beyond those limits
(or even close to them), there is simply no way it is going
to be reliable.

Another option instead of timing belts is multi-groove 
V-belts (J series).  They have the advantage that you can
make your own pulleys (if you have a working lathe).  
A spindle drive shouldn't need positive registration, so
you don't really need toothed belts.


-- 
  John Kasunich
  jmkasun...@fastmail.fm

--
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