Re: [E-devel] 1.18, a new plan

2016-07-13 Thread Stefan Schmidt 
Hello.


On 08/07/16 10:55, Stefan Schmidt wrote:
> Hello.
>
>
> On 08/07/16 04:20, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
>> On Thu, 7 Jul 2016 10:38:25 +0200 Stefan Schmidt 
>>  said:
>>
>>> Hello.
>>>
>>>
>>> Nobody can be fooled here, we are late. :-)
>> yeah... but hey - we dont GUARANTEE release dates. having timelines for
>> development is 90%+ of the time wrong because someone asks "how long 
>> will it
>> take to do this currently not well known amount of work that you have 
>> never
>> done before with a changing amount of resources?". :)
>>
>>> While the big merges of Elementary, Evas Generic Loaders and emotion
>>> Generic Players went better that I expected we are running out of time
>>> for interfaces.
>> yeah. still a few big things left and a fair few little things. :)
>>
>>> We delayed and hoped we would get in done and could still put it into
>>> 1.18, but looking at it now that seems impossible, if we do not want to
>>> delay even longer.
>>>
>>>
>>> So here is the new plan.
>>>
>>> o If you have some loose ends with a _realistic_ chance to get fixed 
>>> you
>>> have the next week for this.
>> sounds reasonable
>>
>>> o We switch EO and all interfaces back into BETA, all new code stays as
>>> is but is not officially released.
>> yup. not marked as stable.
>>
>>> o I will do the hard freeze and alpha release on Monday 18.07 
>>> (tentative
>>> date).
>> sounds good.
>>
>>> o After that we try our normal 4 weeks stabilization window (my glass
>>> ball is a bit dusty so I have a hard time to predict if 4 weeks are
>>> enough here)
>> if we can do it faster i'd be happy. i'm already going over bug 
>> tickets and
>> doing fixes. :)
>>
>>> Any objections or comments?
>> nope. other than maybe we can freeze faster
>
> I understand it here you want a faster stabilization period not an 
> earlier freeze.
> We can try that. In the end it depends on show stoppers left. If we 
> get all of that sorted out quickly we can cut a week I would say.
>
>
> What we could try would be:
> 18.07 Freeze / alpha tarballs
> 25.07 Beta 1
> 01.08 Beta 2 / or final if no show stoppers are left
> 08.08 Final if no show stoppers are left
>
> If we have still have problems around at that time we could delay for 
> some further days. Just as we handled this with the 3 months time 
> based releases.


I heard no complains here. Lets go ahead with it. I updated the wiki 
accordingly and I#m going to send out a freeze reminder mail now.
https://phab.enlightenment.org/w/efl_and_elementary_1_18/

regards
Stefan Schmidt

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Re: [E-devel] 1.18, a new plan

2016-07-08 Thread David Seikel 
On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 10:58:03 +0200 Stefan Schmidt
 wrote:

> Hello.
> 
> 
> On 08/07/16 03:37, David Seikel wrote:
> > On Thu, 7 Jul 2016 13:18:55 +0200 Stefan Schmidt
> >  wrote:
> >
> >> Hello.
> >>
> >>
> >> On 07/07/16 12:53, Simon Lees wrote:
> >>> On 07/07/2016 06:08 PM, Stefan Schmidt wrote:
>  Hello.
> 
> 
>  Nobody can be fooled here, we are late. :-)
> 
> 
>  While the big merges of Elementary, Evas Generic Loaders and
>  emotion Generic Players went better that I expected we are
>  running out of time for interfaces.
> 
>  We delayed and hoped we would get in done and could still put it
>  into 1.18, but looking at it now that seems impossible, if we do
>  not want to delay even longer.
> 
> 
>  So here is the new plan.
> 
>  o If you have some loose ends with a _realistic_ chance to get
>  fixed you have the next week for this.
> 
>  o We switch EO and all interfaces back into BETA, all new code
>  stays as is but is not officially released.
> 
>  o I will do the hard freeze and alpha release on Monday 18.07
>  (tentative date).
> 
>  o After that we try our normal 4 weeks stabilization window (my
>  glass ball is a bit dusty so I have a hard time to predict if 4
>  weeks are enough here)
> 
> 
>  Any objections or comments?
> 
> >>> The downside to this from my perspective is there are certain e21
> >>> features that are using this api conditionally compiled out (I
> >>> think the new gadget system), currently i'll be taking 1.18 into
> >>> the next openSUSE release which means these features won't make it
> >>> to e21 in that release so from that perspective for me if the
> >>> release takes another month to get out right that would be better
> >>> but if its going to take much more then that then it would be
> >>> touch and go as to including it in the release anyway so if it
> >>> will take longer then that additional month it may as well be
> >>> done now.
> >> OK, this is getting a bit confused. For everything wayland or drm
> >> this should change nothing. These parts do not use eo and will stay
> >> as they are right now for the release.
> >> If parts are marked as beta aright now they would so for the
> >> release. If they are public APIs they would also stay this way.
> >>
> >> For e21 doin a release now would actually help.
> >>> The other thing to note is this week there seems to have been a
> >>> lot of testing going on and fixes going in that along with the
> >>> fact that most apps in existence arn't using the new api's anyway
> >>> maybe with another tech preview in the next 2 weeks before the
> >>> api's are finalised we could cut the stabilization window back to
> >>> 3 weeks.
> >> With promises not being settled we still have a long way to go
> >> before the new APIs are in a stage where people would start using
> >> them in their application widely.
> > For what it's worth, my big experimental 3D world project tries to
> > make use of a lot of this new EO API stuff.  It's a wide
> > application that is not widely used, yet.  B-)
> >
> 
> In which case this should not really be a big problem for you if we
> move these APIs to 1.19 to become public, right?

Right.

-- 
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coz there are too many silver coated monkeys in the world.


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Re: [E-devel] 1.18, a new plan

2016-07-08 Thread The Rasterman 
On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 10:55:14 +0200 Stefan Schmidt  said:

> Hello.
> 
> 
> On 08/07/16 04:20, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
> > On Thu, 7 Jul 2016 10:38:25 +0200 Stefan Schmidt 
> > said:
> >
> >> Hello.
> >>
> >>
> >> Nobody can be fooled here, we are late. :-)
> > yeah... but hey - we dont GUARANTEE release dates. having timelines for
> > development is 90%+ of the time wrong because someone asks "how long will it
> > take to do this currently not well known amount of work that you have never
> > done before with a changing amount of resources?". :)
> >
> >> While the big merges of Elementary, Evas Generic Loaders and emotion
> >> Generic Players went better that I expected we are running out of time
> >> for interfaces.
> > yeah. still a few big things left and a fair few little things. :)
> >
> >> We delayed and hoped we would get in done and could still put it into
> >> 1.18, but looking at it now that seems impossible, if we do not want to
> >> delay even longer.
> >>
> >>
> >> So here is the new plan.
> >>
> >> o If you have some loose ends with a _realistic_ chance to get fixed you
> >> have the next week for this.
> > sounds reasonable
> >
> >> o We switch EO and all interfaces back into BETA, all new code stays as
> >> is but is not officially released.
> > yup. not marked as stable.
> >
> >> o I will do the hard freeze and alpha release on Monday 18.07 (tentative
> >> date).
> > sounds good.
> >
> >> o After that we try our normal 4 weeks stabilization window (my glass
> >> ball is a bit dusty so I have a hard time to predict if 4 weeks are
> >> enough here)
> > if we can do it faster i'd be happy. i'm already going over bug tickets and
> > doing fixes. :)
> >
> >> Any objections or comments?
> > nope. other than maybe we can freeze faster
> 
> I understand it here you want a faster stabilization period not an 
> earlier freeze.
> We can try that. In the end it depends on show stoppers left. If we get 
> all of that sorted out quickly we can cut a week I would say.
> 
> 
> What we could try would be:
> 18.07 Freeze / alpha tarballs
> 25.07 Beta 1
> 01.08 Beta 2 / or final if no show stoppers are left
> 08.08 Final if no show stoppers are left
> 
> If we have still have problems around at that time we could delay for 
> some further days. Just as we handled this with the 3 months time based 
> releases.

bingo.,. if we get done earlier... let's asparagus. :)


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Re: [E-devel] 1.18, a new plan

2016-07-08 Thread Stefan Schmidt 
Hello.


On 08/07/16 03:37, David Seikel wrote:
> On Thu, 7 Jul 2016 13:18:55 +0200 Stefan Schmidt
>  wrote:
>
>> Hello.
>>
>>
>> On 07/07/16 12:53, Simon Lees wrote:
>>> On 07/07/2016 06:08 PM, Stefan Schmidt wrote:
 Hello.


 Nobody can be fooled here, we are late. :-)


 While the big merges of Elementary, Evas Generic Loaders and
 emotion Generic Players went better that I expected we are running
 out of time for interfaces.

 We delayed and hoped we would get in done and could still put it
 into 1.18, but looking at it now that seems impossible, if we do
 not want to delay even longer.


 So here is the new plan.

 o If you have some loose ends with a _realistic_ chance to get
 fixed you have the next week for this.

 o We switch EO and all interfaces back into BETA, all new code
 stays as is but is not officially released.

 o I will do the hard freeze and alpha release on Monday 18.07
 (tentative date).

 o After that we try our normal 4 weeks stabilization window (my
 glass ball is a bit dusty so I have a hard time to predict if 4
 weeks are enough here)


 Any objections or comments?

>>> The downside to this from my perspective is there are certain e21
>>> features that are using this api conditionally compiled out (I
>>> think the new gadget system), currently i'll be taking 1.18 into
>>> the next openSUSE release which means these features won't make it
>>> to e21 in that release so from that perspective for me if the
>>> release takes another month to get out right that would be better
>>> but if its going to take much more then that then it would be touch
>>> and go as to including it in the release anyway so if it will take
>>> longer then that additional month it may as well be done now.
>> OK, this is getting a bit confused. For everything wayland or drm
>> this should change nothing. These parts do not use eo and will stay
>> as they are right now for the release.
>> If parts are marked as beta aright now they would so for the release.
>> If they are public APIs they would also stay this way.
>>
>> For e21 doin a release now would actually help.
>>> The other thing to note is this week there seems to have been a lot
>>> of testing going on and fixes going in that along with the fact
>>> that most apps in existence arn't using the new api's anyway maybe
>>> with another tech preview in the next 2 weeks before the api's are
>>> finalised we could cut the stabilization window back to 3 weeks.
>> With promises not being settled we still have a long way to go before
>> the new APIs are in a stage where people would start using them in
>> their application widely.
> For what it's worth, my big experimental 3D world project tries to make
> use of a lot of this new EO API stuff.  It's a wide application that is
> not widely used, yet.  B-)
>

In which case this should not really be a big problem for you if we move 
these APIs to 1.19 to become public, right?

regards
Stefan Schmidt

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Re: [E-devel] 1.18, a new plan

2016-07-07 Thread The Rasterman 
On Thu, 7 Jul 2016 10:38:25 +0200 Stefan Schmidt  said:

> Hello.
> 
> 
> Nobody can be fooled here, we are late. :-)

yeah... but hey - we dont GUARANTEE release dates. having timelines for
development is 90%+ of the time wrong because someone asks "how long will it
take to do this currently not well known amount of work that you have never
done before with a changing amount of resources?". :)

> While the big merges of Elementary, Evas Generic Loaders and emotion 
> Generic Players went better that I expected we are running out of time 
> for interfaces.

yeah. still a few big things left and a fair few little things. :)

> We delayed and hoped we would get in done and could still put it into 
> 1.18, but looking at it now that seems impossible, if we do not want to 
> delay even longer.
> 
> 
> So here is the new plan.
> 
> o If you have some loose ends with a _realistic_ chance to get fixed you 
> have the next week for this.

sounds reasonable

> o We switch EO and all interfaces back into BETA, all new code stays as 
> is but is not officially released.

yup. not marked as stable.

> o I will do the hard freeze and alpha release on Monday 18.07 (tentative 
> date).

sounds good.

> o After that we try our normal 4 weeks stabilization window (my glass 
> ball is a bit dusty so I have a hard time to predict if 4 weeks are 
> enough here)

if we can do it faster i'd be happy. i'm already going over bug tickets and
doing fixes. :)

> Any objections or comments?

nope. other than maybe we can freeze faster

> regards
> 
> Stefan Schmidt
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Attend Shape: An AT Tech Expo July 15-16. Meet us at AT Park in San
> Francisco, CA to explore cutting-edge tech and listen to tech luminaries
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Re: [E-devel] 1.18, a new plan

2016-07-07 Thread David Seikel 
On Thu, 7 Jul 2016 13:18:55 +0200 Stefan Schmidt
 wrote:

> Hello.
> 
> 
> On 07/07/16 12:53, Simon Lees wrote:
> >
> > On 07/07/2016 06:08 PM, Stefan Schmidt wrote:
> >> Hello.
> >>
> >>
> >> Nobody can be fooled here, we are late. :-)
> >>
> >>
> >> While the big merges of Elementary, Evas Generic Loaders and
> >> emotion Generic Players went better that I expected we are running
> >> out of time for interfaces.
> >>
> >> We delayed and hoped we would get in done and could still put it
> >> into 1.18, but looking at it now that seems impossible, if we do
> >> not want to delay even longer.
> >>
> >>
> >> So here is the new plan.
> >>
> >> o If you have some loose ends with a _realistic_ chance to get
> >> fixed you have the next week for this.
> >>
> >> o We switch EO and all interfaces back into BETA, all new code
> >> stays as is but is not officially released.
> >>
> >> o I will do the hard freeze and alpha release on Monday 18.07
> >> (tentative date).
> >>
> >> o After that we try our normal 4 weeks stabilization window (my
> >> glass ball is a bit dusty so I have a hard time to predict if 4
> >> weeks are enough here)
> >>
> >>
> >> Any objections or comments?
> >>
> > The downside to this from my perspective is there are certain e21
> > features that are using this api conditionally compiled out (I
> > think the new gadget system), currently i'll be taking 1.18 into
> > the next openSUSE release which means these features won't make it
> > to e21 in that release so from that perspective for me if the
> > release takes another month to get out right that would be better
> > but if its going to take much more then that then it would be touch
> > and go as to including it in the release anyway so if it will take
> > longer then that additional month it may as well be done now.
> 
> OK, this is getting a bit confused. For everything wayland or drm
> this should change nothing. These parts do not use eo and will stay
> as they are right now for the release.
> If parts are marked as beta aright now they would so for the release.
> If they are public APIs they would also stay this way.
> 
> For e21 doin a release now would actually help.
> > The other thing to note is this week there seems to have been a lot
> > of testing going on and fixes going in that along with the fact
> > that most apps in existence arn't using the new api's anyway maybe
> > with another tech preview in the next 2 weeks before the api's are
> > finalised we could cut the stabilization window back to 3 weeks.
> 
> With promises not being settled we still have a long way to go before 
> the new APIs are in a stage where people would start using them in
> their application widely.

For what it's worth, my big experimental 3D world project tries to make
use of a lot of this new EO API stuff.  It's a wide application that is
not widely used, yet.  B-)

-- 
A big old stinking pile of genius that no one wants
coz there are too many silver coated monkeys in the world.


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Re: [E-devel] 1.18, a new plan

2016-07-07 Thread Mike Blumenkrantz 
On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 7:20 AM Stefan Schmidt 
wrote:

> Hello.
>
>
> On 07/07/16 12:53, Simon Lees wrote:
> >
> > On 07/07/2016 06:08 PM, Stefan Schmidt wrote:
> >> Hello.
> >>
> >>
> >> Nobody can be fooled here, we are late. :-)
> >>
> >>
> >> While the big merges of Elementary, Evas Generic Loaders and emotion
> >> Generic Players went better that I expected we are running out of time
> >> for interfaces.
> >>
> >> We delayed and hoped we would get in done and could still put it into
> >> 1.18, but looking at it now that seems impossible, if we do not want to
> >> delay even longer.
> >>
> >>
> >> So here is the new plan.
> >>
> >> o If you have some loose ends with a _realistic_ chance to get fixed you
> >> have the next week for this.
> >>
> >> o We switch EO and all interfaces back into BETA, all new code stays as
> >> is but is not officially released.
> >>
> >> o I will do the hard freeze and alpha release on Monday 18.07 (tentative
> >> date).
> >>
> >> o After that we try our normal 4 weeks stabilization window (my glass
> >> ball is a bit dusty so I have a hard time to predict if 4 weeks are
> >> enough here)
> >>
> >>
> >> Any objections or comments?
> >>
> > The downside to this from my perspective is there are certain e21
> > features that are using this api conditionally compiled out (I think the
> > new gadget system), currently i'll be taking 1.18 into the next openSUSE
>

Gadgets need themes from 1.18, not API. That's why it's a runtime check
instead of a compile check.


> > release which means these features won't make it to e21 in that release
> > so from that perspective for me if the release takes another month to
> > get out right that would be better but if its going to take much more
> > then that then it would be touch and go as to including it in the
> > release anyway so if it will take longer then that additional month it
> > may as well be done now.
>
> OK, this is getting a bit confused. For everything wayland or drm this
> should change nothing. These parts do not use eo and will stay as they
> are right now for the release.
> If parts are marked as beta aright now they would so for the release. If
> they are public APIs they would also stay this way.
>

Correct.


>
> For e21 doin a release now would actually help.
> > The other thing to note is this week there seems to have been a lot of
> > testing going on and fixes going in that along with the fact that most
> > apps in existence arn't using the new api's anyway maybe with another
> > tech preview in the next 2 weeks before the api's are finalised we could
> > cut the stabilization window back to 3 weeks.
>
> With promises not being settled we still have a long way to go before
> the new APIs are in a stage where people would start using them in their
> application widely.
>
> We should be concerned that all the changes we do under the hood do not
> break the currently in use APIs. That alone will take a good amount of
> testing.
>
> regards
> Stefan Schmidt
>
>
> --
> Attend Shape: An AT Tech Expo July 15-16. Meet us at AT Park in San
> Francisco, CA to explore cutting-edge tech and listen to tech luminaries
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Re: [E-devel] 1.18, a new plan

2016-07-07 Thread Stefan Schmidt 
Hello.


On 07/07/16 12:53, Simon Lees wrote:
>
> On 07/07/2016 06:08 PM, Stefan Schmidt wrote:
>> Hello.
>>
>>
>> Nobody can be fooled here, we are late. :-)
>>
>>
>> While the big merges of Elementary, Evas Generic Loaders and emotion
>> Generic Players went better that I expected we are running out of time
>> for interfaces.
>>
>> We delayed and hoped we would get in done and could still put it into
>> 1.18, but looking at it now that seems impossible, if we do not want to
>> delay even longer.
>>
>>
>> So here is the new plan.
>>
>> o If you have some loose ends with a _realistic_ chance to get fixed you
>> have the next week for this.
>>
>> o We switch EO and all interfaces back into BETA, all new code stays as
>> is but is not officially released.
>>
>> o I will do the hard freeze and alpha release on Monday 18.07 (tentative
>> date).
>>
>> o After that we try our normal 4 weeks stabilization window (my glass
>> ball is a bit dusty so I have a hard time to predict if 4 weeks are
>> enough here)
>>
>>
>> Any objections or comments?
>>
> The downside to this from my perspective is there are certain e21
> features that are using this api conditionally compiled out (I think the
> new gadget system), currently i'll be taking 1.18 into the next openSUSE
> release which means these features won't make it to e21 in that release
> so from that perspective for me if the release takes another month to
> get out right that would be better but if its going to take much more
> then that then it would be touch and go as to including it in the
> release anyway so if it will take longer then that additional month it
> may as well be done now.

OK, this is getting a bit confused. For everything wayland or drm this 
should change nothing. These parts do not use eo and will stay as they 
are right now for the release.
If parts are marked as beta aright now they would so for the release. If 
they are public APIs they would also stay this way.

For e21 doin a release now would actually help.
> The other thing to note is this week there seems to have been a lot of
> testing going on and fixes going in that along with the fact that most
> apps in existence arn't using the new api's anyway maybe with another
> tech preview in the next 2 weeks before the api's are finalised we could
> cut the stabilization window back to 3 weeks.

With promises not being settled we still have a long way to go before 
the new APIs are in a stage where people would start using them in their 
application widely.

We should be concerned that all the changes we do under the hood do not 
break the currently in use APIs. That alone will take a good amount of 
testing.

regards
Stefan Schmidt

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Re: [E-devel] 1.18, a new plan

2016-07-07 Thread Simon Lees 


On 07/07/2016 06:08 PM, Stefan Schmidt wrote:
> Hello.
> 
> 
> Nobody can be fooled here, we are late. :-)
> 
> 
> While the big merges of Elementary, Evas Generic Loaders and emotion 
> Generic Players went better that I expected we are running out of time 
> for interfaces.
> 
> We delayed and hoped we would get in done and could still put it into 
> 1.18, but looking at it now that seems impossible, if we do not want to 
> delay even longer.
> 
> 
> So here is the new plan.
> 
> o If you have some loose ends with a _realistic_ chance to get fixed you 
> have the next week for this.
> 
> o We switch EO and all interfaces back into BETA, all new code stays as 
> is but is not officially released.
> 
> o I will do the hard freeze and alpha release on Monday 18.07 (tentative 
> date).
> 
> o After that we try our normal 4 weeks stabilization window (my glass 
> ball is a bit dusty so I have a hard time to predict if 4 weeks are 
> enough here)
> 
> 
> Any objections or comments?
> 

The downside to this from my perspective is there are certain e21
features that are using this api conditionally compiled out (I think the
new gadget system), currently i'll be taking 1.18 into the next openSUSE
release which means these features won't make it to e21 in that release
so from that perspective for me if the release takes another month to
get out right that would be better but if its going to take much more
then that then it would be touch and go as to including it in the
release anyway so if it will take longer then that additional month it
may as well be done now.

The other thing to note is this week there seems to have been a lot of
testing going on and fixes going in that along with the fact that most
apps in existence arn't using the new api's anyway maybe with another
tech preview in the next 2 weeks before the api's are finalised we could
cut the stabilization window back to 3 weeks.

Also this release isn't going to support wayland so that part isn't an
issue at least for the stable openSUSE release, but if the e21 wayland
support is using what would be considered beta API's then its going to
be another 3 months until e21 supports wayland again which maybe a issue
for some (I don't know if it uses those api's).

>
> regards
> 
> Stefan Schmidt
> 

-- 

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[E-devel] 1.18, a new plan

2016-07-07 Thread Stefan Schmidt 
Hello.


Nobody can be fooled here, we are late. :-)


While the big merges of Elementary, Evas Generic Loaders and emotion 
Generic Players went better that I expected we are running out of time 
for interfaces.

We delayed and hoped we would get in done and could still put it into 
1.18, but looking at it now that seems impossible, if we do not want to 
delay even longer.


So here is the new plan.

o If you have some loose ends with a _realistic_ chance to get fixed you 
have the next week for this.

o We switch EO and all interfaces back into BETA, all new code stays as 
is but is not officially released.

o I will do the hard freeze and alpha release on Monday 18.07 (tentative 
date).

o After that we try our normal 4 weeks stabilization window (my glass 
ball is a bit dusty so I have a hard time to predict if 4 weeks are 
enough here)


Any objections or comments?


regards

Stefan Schmidt



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