Re: [e-users] E versionning and testing
Yeah, that's what I thought when I first came across it. I never fully trust Nvidia drivers for resuming from suspend (virtual terminal goes blank, always). Weird how E21 actually works fine with resuming, though. Not sure what E22 is doing to trigger a possible driver bug. Anyway, I'll remember one day to recompile E22 with debug symbols, do the suspend, go and do something else for a few hours, set up another PC so I can ssh into my machine, do the resume, then capture the backtrace. dave In the year 2018, of the month of May, on the 10th day, Daniel Kasak wrote: > This is probably a driver issue, and not E. > > On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 1:13 PM, Dave wrote: > > > In the year 2018, of the month of May, on the 9th day, Marc MERLIN wrote: > > > Last week, I show up for a work meeting, I open my laptop, everything is > > > hosed/hung. I try to restart E, it won't restart. I forget why but that > > > time I actually had to restart X. Time lost, people looking at me. > > > > Just confirming that I have a similar problem with E22. Enlightenment is > > freezing up when I resume from suspend. Problem is, it doesn't trigger > > right > > away. I can suspend and then resume immediately, and things are OK. I > > usually have to leave the laptop suspended for a few hours before the issue > > will trigger. > > > > Haven't reported it because I've been too lazy to get more info from a > > backtrace, and because I wasn't sure if it was issues with the driver > > and/or > > Xorg. Guess I'll have to get around to it. Would be nice to have suspend > > properly working again. > > > > dave > > > > > > > > -- > > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot > > ___ > > enlightenment-users mailing list > > enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users > > > -- > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot > ___ > enlightenment-users mailing list > enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users -- Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot ___ enlightenment-users mailing list enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users
Re: [e-users] E versionning and testing
On Thu, 10 May 2018 13:13:41 +1000 Dave said: > In the year 2018, of the month of May, on the 9th day, Marc MERLIN wrote: > > Last week, I show up for a work meeting, I open my laptop, everything is > > hosed/hung. I try to restart E, it won't restart. I forget why but that > > time I actually had to restart X. Time lost, people looking at me. > > Just confirming that I have a similar problem with E22. Enlightenment is > freezing up when I resume from suspend. Problem is, it doesn't trigger right > away. I can suspend and then resume immediately, and things are OK. I > usually have to leave the laptop suspended for a few hours before the issue > will trigger. > > Haven't reported it because I've been too lazy to get more info from a > backtrace, and because I wasn't sure if it was issues with the driver and/or > Xorg. Guess I'll have to get around to it. Would be nice to have suspend > properly working again. is e actually frozen, or is it just not rendering (ctrl+alt+end restarts e so if that works then e is working, just not drawing). if it doesn't then e is hung and a bt is needed to know where. > dave > > > -- > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot > ___ > enlightenment-users mailing list > enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users > -- - Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -- Carsten Haitzler - ras...@rasterman.com -- Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot ___ enlightenment-users mailing list enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users
Re: [e-users] E versionning and testing
On Wed, 9 May 2018 22:11:20 -0700 Marc MERLIN said: > On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 03:04:03PM +1000, Daniel Kasak wrote: > > This is probably a driver issue, and not E. > > That what Raster said when I first reported this, I believe him, but at the > end of the day, it doesn't matter. well i mentioned that it probably is because e being actually hung is an issue i've seen ending up in a bt in the driver. it's recoverable without losing anything but it does matter where the problem is because you report the problem then to the mesa devs if its getting hung in the driver e.g. in a gl api call. e hasnt "started doing new fancy things". perhaps we've shuffled some gl draw calls around or a few objects so there is a different sequence of calls that causes it but it is far from our fault if this is the case. when you say hung i am taking it as literally just that - hung and not able to process events or render or do anything. > 1) E changed to do new more fancy stuff I didn't need. > 2) It triggers bugs in Xorg or the intel driver, or god knows what. > 3) My laptop becomes not usable for work anymore > ... > 5) !profit > > I realize that Raster wants to keep it fun for himself and add more features > and eye candy, I don't blame him. no. this has nothing to do with that. but "never add more things to e because i demand it never change" is never going to happen. i suggest you tell the kernel developers this and see what reaction you get. what i see here is you don't care where the problem is, you're not interested in helping find out and have decided to just blame us and that's the end of that. you are free to do that, but that's not going to get any traction in terms of help from this end. i've worked with developers of other projects before and commonly they ask you to try "git master or svn head" and so i do... i even bother to bisect the problem (i've done this a few times for mesa for example), and i work with the developers to identify the problem so it gets fixed. you on the other hand are not interested in this (you've made it clear you have no time), and you are insisting on some amorphous "make it work for me" without any desire to help that happen. :( that's a bit sad. in the end i'm going to spend my time on things i can get "return on investment" for. i also only have a certain amount of time ... and i'm going to spend it where i get the best return. i get no return from someone unwilling to help figure out what is up (has it been addressed yet or not in master, where does the issue actually lie (e, efl, mesa, somewhere else?) etc. ... mas i said. if i see it... i bother to figure it out if its' bad and easy to do (a backtrace for example). :( > But as an end user, I really don't need this, I just need an E that will > work without any extra features compared to the many many so many features > it already has, many I probably don't even know. > Stablizing a branch is not fun work, but it's essential to software, > especially something as "mustn't fail" and important as a WM. already answered that. we have them. we backport fixes. latest release is the stable branch only. > Marc > -- > "A mouse is a device used to point at the xterm you want to type in" - A.S.R. > Microsoft is to operating systems > what McDonalds is to gourmet > cooking Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/ > > -- > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot > ___ > enlightenment-users mailing list > enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users > -- - Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -- Carsten Haitzler - ras...@rasterman.com -- Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot ___ enlightenment-users mailing list enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users
Re: [e-users] E versionning and testing
On Thu, 10 May 2018 15:37:54 +1000 Daniel Kasak said: > It's more likely that you've received a kernel upgrade that's broken > resuming from suspension. I've have the bitter experience of a long line of > integrated Intel GPUs, and they have NEVER been stable resuming from > suspension for me. Since the meltdown / spectre patches landed, that seems > to have gotten worse, but it might just be that Intel broke things for > older GPUs when adding support for newer ones in 4.15 / 4.16. It's a bit of > a stretch to say that this instability resuming from suspension makes your > laptop "not usable for work any more". Anyway, the moral of the story is to > buy quality parts with stable drivers. I guarantee you that I'll never buy > a laptop with an integrated intel GPU ( unfortunately my workplaces keep > giving them to me ). If you want to rage at someone for your instability, > go to intel-...@lists.freedesktop.org and tell them about it ... just as information, suspend and resume are "invisible" to userspace. i need to explain this. there is nothing special a wm or compositor or nay x app has to or should do during suspend or resume at all. it's "handled for you by the kernel" basically. yes - e is involved VISUALLY by offering keybindings or acpi bindings (listening to key and acpi events) and presenting a gui or initiate a suspend, where e would mostly ask systemd "please suspend now". it happens to first fade the screen (and backlight) to black.off before asking this of systemd. and in reverse it detects it has resumed from suspend (totally in userspace with no special kernel access) and does the reverse (fades back in). if rendering HANGS and e is stuck e.g. in a gl call this absolutely is not something e can do much or anything about. e itself doesnt even do gl calls - it's abstracted through evas so all e does it move, show, hide and otherwise change the properties of objects. e has done this fading in and out now for like over 5+ years. this is nothing new. it's actually done by the theme when it's signalled. more recently we also fade/modify the x cursor too, but in principal it's all valid userspace activity just before and after a suspend/resume cycle. now as i said. i have sometimes seen e stop rendering. my checks seem to show it just stops calling evas_render () well e doesnt call this. ecore_evas does). i suspect something pauses rendering voluntarily then doesn't unpause (this can be done) but i have yet to catch this often enough to put in debugging to find out why. i wouldn't cal this hung because e's loop is still working and processing events etc. so ctl+alt+end gets it back to running. i call it "stop rendering" as opposed to hung because e can still process events etc. the reason i detail this is, this is where problems get identified. either they are issues to farm off to mesa or kernel or they are issues in efl or e, and then figuring out where the issue happens and how etc. is important, but that requires people to help. the more people provide data, the more likely it is to be finally found. things like "it only happens after long suspends". figuring out how long is "long" is important. which driver, mesa. kernel versions are effected. which laptops? what usage patterns? when my lpatop suspends it's normally for short periods (maybe an hour or 2 or 3 at most, often a few seconds or minutes). if i am not going to use it for a while i shut it down (for me i press power button twice and presto). it boots in only about 8 seconds so i'm happy with that. but i can try and reproduce the behaviour that people say produces the issue. > Dan > > On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 3:11 PM, Marc MERLIN wrote: > > > On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 03:04:03PM +1000, Daniel Kasak wrote: > > > This is probably a driver issue, and not E. > > > > That what Raster said when I first reported this, I believe him, but at the > > end of the day, it doesn't matter. > > 1) E changed to do new more fancy stuff I didn't need. > > 2) It triggers bugs in Xorg or the intel driver, or god knows what. > > 3) My laptop becomes not usable for work anymore > > ... > > 5) !profit > > > > I realize that Raster wants to keep it fun for himself and add more > > features > > and eye candy, I don't blame him. > > But as an end user, I really don't need this, I just need an E that will > > work without any extra features compared to the many many so many features > > it already has, many I probably don't even know. > > Stablizing a branch is not fun work, but it's essential to software, > > especially something as "mustn't fail" and important as a WM. > > > > Marc > > -- > > "A mouse is a device used to point at the xterm you want to type in" - > > A.S.R. > > Microsoft is to operating systems > > what McDonalds is to gourmet > > cooking > > Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/ > > > > > > -- > > Check out the
Re: [e-users] E versionning and testing
On Wed, 9 May 2018 09:33:07 -0700 Marc MERLIN said: > I'll change the title for the different discussion. > > First a question: does the version number mean what I think it means, or > does it really not mean much? > My guess/expectation is that > 0.21.0 start with new features > 0.21.x gets tweaks and bug fixes > 0.21.11 is the last from that featureset branch and the most stable of that > branch (at least ideally) yes. the micro version (last version number changing above) means basically bug fixes only (or relevant changes that are equivalent to a bug fix). > 0.22.0 start over with brand new features and bugs > etc.. 0.22 should have all the fixes 0.21.xxx has as the fixes in 0.21.xxx will have been cherry-picked/backported from 0.22. 0.22 may introduce new bugs we don't know about, but unless people try code in git before it becomes 0.22 and report issues, we don't know. bugs that we see get fixed. bugs we don't, do not. bugs that are reported may get fixed if we can reproduce them or possibly divine what it might be (but if its not reproducible by developers then it's impossible to fix without help from the affected user - by sending them patches or having them try attempted fixes to verify is needed). > Does that sound correct? > > > > 1) never had time to even get anything building until today > > > 2) 0.22 has too many different bugs for me to want to keep trying to use > > > it. > > > > well then we are at an impasse. nothing is going to change or be fixed > > because there is no way to know what to change or why, so you will be on > > 0.21 forever and we'll move on. sorry. we've been through this before. :( > > We have. The problem here is that I've literally never, not once, > upgraded E because I wanted new features. I've only ever upgraded it > because I absolutely had to for a reason or another (bugs, > incompatibilities). > I'd have stayed with 0.18.5 forever if it weren't for it not working > with chrome anymore, and so forth. > Hell, I'd likely still be on 0.16 if I could ;) > However, every time I've upgraded E, I got unwelcome to very unwelcome > new bugs, making me regret my upgrade :-/ then try git master before releases - use a different ~/.e directory (or back up ~/.e - tar it up and when going back to the previous stable wipe ~/.e and untar it ... though do this without e running). yes - this requires a build env that you have to set up once. it's installing some -dev pkgs. it's not hard. i've done it many times. i've done it on horribly slow machines too and it's not that time consuming. maybe 10-20mins on a slow box (re-running configure to get to the next error each time. no need to re-do autogen.sh as long as configure was generated ... for efl. for e it's meson now so same thing and its lightning fast vs configure). if you don't participate, then this happens. e has so many options that it is impossible to test them all in all combinations as well as all possible use cases with all possible apps and all possible machines with differing speeds and thus race conditions and all the possible applications and their own behaviour patterns etc. etc. the only way to do that is to have many users participate. it's the only way to scale such QA. we have pages documenting even what packages to install to compile (they aren't quite right but they get you 90% of the way there). how to compile etc. has docs on enlightenment.org. it isn't a laborious time sink unless you choose to make it one and do it the hard way and not use these docs. :) if you stick to an old e and you have issues you will be left behind. that's reality. we can't support old versions. even supporting one is enough work and even that doesn't get all the bug fixes back-ported. really only some that are clear and simple and easily cherry-picked, and perhaps the odd one that needs work. > Yes, you're going to hate me for saying that, sorry :) > Basically E has done what I needed for a long time. It's not adding any > features I need (although I'll admit that the pulse sound slider per > window is actually a nice new feature in 0.22). > > I know I've come off as complaining and not contributing. Sadly, it's > because my WM has to work, it's not a hobby for me, it's like X, it has > to work because all my other work depends on it. my wm has to work too - all day. i do development in it... and mine does. solidly. it's not crashing or doing weird focus things like for you. i use git master as it rolls all day every day. the thought that "i must use something old and stable otherwise it will never work" is wrong. one problem with a release is developers move away from that release to git master instantly and if they find bugs they fix them in git master and then backport (maybe - see above). but people using the latest release will not be using what developers use. that is normal and to improve this we should do more frequent releases, but that wouldn't work for you as you would never upgrade unless forced, so
Re: [e-users] E versionning and testing
It's more likely that you've received a kernel upgrade that's broken resuming from suspension. I've have the bitter experience of a long line of integrated Intel GPUs, and they have NEVER been stable resuming from suspension for me. Since the meltdown / spectre patches landed, that seems to have gotten worse, but it might just be that Intel broke things for older GPUs when adding support for newer ones in 4.15 / 4.16. It's a bit of a stretch to say that this instability resuming from suspension makes your laptop "not usable for work any more". Anyway, the moral of the story is to buy quality parts with stable drivers. I guarantee you that I'll never buy a laptop with an integrated intel GPU ( unfortunately my workplaces keep giving them to me ). If you want to rage at someone for your instability, go to intel-...@lists.freedesktop.org and tell them about it ... Dan On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 3:11 PM, Marc MERLIN wrote: > On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 03:04:03PM +1000, Daniel Kasak wrote: > > This is probably a driver issue, and not E. > > That what Raster said when I first reported this, I believe him, but at the > end of the day, it doesn't matter. > 1) E changed to do new more fancy stuff I didn't need. > 2) It triggers bugs in Xorg or the intel driver, or god knows what. > 3) My laptop becomes not usable for work anymore > ... > 5) !profit > > I realize that Raster wants to keep it fun for himself and add more > features > and eye candy, I don't blame him. > But as an end user, I really don't need this, I just need an E that will > work without any extra features compared to the many many so many features > it already has, many I probably don't even know. > Stablizing a branch is not fun work, but it's essential to software, > especially something as "mustn't fail" and important as a WM. > > Marc > -- > "A mouse is a device used to point at the xterm you want to type in" - > A.S.R. > Microsoft is to operating systems > what McDonalds is to gourmet > cooking > Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/ > > > -- > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot > ___ > enlightenment-users mailing list > enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users > -- Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot ___ enlightenment-users mailing list enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users
Re: [e-users] E versionning and testing
On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 03:04:03PM +1000, Daniel Kasak wrote: > This is probably a driver issue, and not E. That what Raster said when I first reported this, I believe him, but at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. 1) E changed to do new more fancy stuff I didn't need. 2) It triggers bugs in Xorg or the intel driver, or god knows what. 3) My laptop becomes not usable for work anymore ... 5) !profit I realize that Raster wants to keep it fun for himself and add more features and eye candy, I don't blame him. But as an end user, I really don't need this, I just need an E that will work without any extra features compared to the many many so many features it already has, many I probably don't even know. Stablizing a branch is not fun work, but it's essential to software, especially something as "mustn't fail" and important as a WM. Marc -- "A mouse is a device used to point at the xterm you want to type in" - A.S.R. Microsoft is to operating systems what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/ -- Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot ___ enlightenment-users mailing list enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users
Re: [e-users] E versionning and testing
This is probably a driver issue, and not E. On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 1:13 PM, Dave wrote: > In the year 2018, of the month of May, on the 9th day, Marc MERLIN wrote: > > Last week, I show up for a work meeting, I open my laptop, everything is > > hosed/hung. I try to restart E, it won't restart. I forget why but that > > time I actually had to restart X. Time lost, people looking at me. > > Just confirming that I have a similar problem with E22. Enlightenment is > freezing up when I resume from suspend. Problem is, it doesn't trigger > right > away. I can suspend and then resume immediately, and things are OK. I > usually have to leave the laptop suspended for a few hours before the issue > will trigger. > > Haven't reported it because I've been too lazy to get more info from a > backtrace, and because I wasn't sure if it was issues with the driver > and/or > Xorg. Guess I'll have to get around to it. Would be nice to have suspend > properly working again. > > dave > > > > -- > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot > ___ > enlightenment-users mailing list > enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users > -- Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot ___ enlightenment-users mailing list enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users
Re: [e-users] E versionning and testing
In the year 2018, of the month of May, on the 9th day, Marc MERLIN wrote: > Last week, I show up for a work meeting, I open my laptop, everything is > hosed/hung. I try to restart E, it won't restart. I forget why but that > time I actually had to restart X. Time lost, people looking at me. Just confirming that I have a similar problem with E22. Enlightenment is freezing up when I resume from suspend. Problem is, it doesn't trigger right away. I can suspend and then resume immediately, and things are OK. I usually have to leave the laptop suspended for a few hours before the issue will trigger. Haven't reported it because I've been too lazy to get more info from a backtrace, and because I wasn't sure if it was issues with the driver and/or Xorg. Guess I'll have to get around to it. Would be nice to have suspend properly working again. dave -- Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot ___ enlightenment-users mailing list enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users
Re: [e-users] E versionning and testing
I'll change the title for the different discussion. First a question: does the version number mean what I think it means, or does it really not mean much? My guess/expectation is that 0.21.0 start with new features 0.21.x gets tweaks and bug fixes 0.21.11 is the last from that featureset branch and the most stable of that branch (at least ideally) 0.22.0 start over with brand new features and bugs etc.. Does that sound correct? > > 1) never had time to even get anything building until today > > 2) 0.22 has too many different bugs for me to want to keep trying to use > > it. > > well then we are at an impasse. nothing is going to change or be fixed because > there is no way to know what to change or why, so you will be on 0.21 forever > and we'll move on. sorry. we've been through this before. :( We have. The problem here is that I've literally never, not once, upgraded E because I wanted new features. I've only ever upgraded it because I absolutely had to for a reason or another (bugs, incompatibilities). I'd have stayed with 0.18.5 forever if it weren't for it not working with chrome anymore, and so forth. Hell, I'd likely still be on 0.16 if I could ;) However, every time I've upgraded E, I got unwelcome to very unwelcome new bugs, making me regret my upgrade :-/ Yes, you're going to hate me for saying that, sorry :) Basically E has done what I needed for a long time. It's not adding any features I need (although I'll admit that the pulse sound slider per window is actually a nice new feature in 0.22). I know I've come off as complaining and not contributing. Sadly, it's because my WM has to work, it's not a hobby for me, it's like X, it has to work because all my other work depends on it. I actually spend a lot of time contributing patches to projects, finding bugs, reporting them in details if I can't fix them myself, and help test the new code. I also maintain my own projects and code. But to do all this, I need linux, Xorg, and E to work. Neither I'm interested in beta testing because I don't have another machine I use just to test them, I only use them on my production machines where they have to just work. Last week, I show up for a work meeting, I open my laptop, everything is hosed/hung. I try to restart E, it won't restart. I forget why but that time I actually had to restart X. Time lost, people looking at me. I restart X and chrome and as chrome starts, one tab start blazing noise and I can't quickly find which one. The E speaker volume slider is broken on that start, I can't change the volume or mute quickly. I excuse myself, leave the room, go debug all this outside while looking like an idiot. Lesser but not uncommon scenario: I open my laptop in the plane with all my stuff pre-loaded. If E wedges itself and I can't fix it/restart it without crashing X (usually I succeed thankfully), I lose all my preloaded work and then no wifi to recover during the flight, I'm hosed. So, that's why linux, X, and E just have to work and why I don't to ever upgrade E unless I must, as it's pretty much been pain and disappointment every time (except that usually I was also leaving another version with other pain and other disappointment). I so so so wish for an E branch that just stabilizes and works forever, or almost forever. I however know you don't have a release team like linux with a person responsible for maintaining the 4.9.x kernel for X years. But having people follow the bleeding edge and git forever is not a solution for people like me either. I hope you understand. In my ideal life, I want neither new features nor new bugs, just fewer bugs until they're few enough that I can live with them. Until I'm forced to switch to wayland, or some other chrome comes up with new stuff that breaks older versions of E and then I'm hosed again. > 0.22 has this fixed... so either move to 0.22 and try what i suggested or go but it has new features and new bugs, and I need/want neither :) > we don't try to put stuff in e or efl that is broken for us - in our testing, > but not all distros and hardware are the same. they contain different versions (...) Yeeh, I totally understand that. I totally understand that the problems I see may not be E's fault, but they appear after I upgrade E. At work when stuff breaks, you revert the last thing changed, regardless of whose fault it really is in the end. Same with E. To be fair, I tried to upgrade Xorg + intel drivers and all I got for that effort is that now xscreensaver is unable to turn my screen dark before locking. Sigh :( (not E's fault of course) If I don't get new features I don't need, I won't get new bugs I don't need either ;) Makes sense? Any chance we can have a stable E branch? It's super vexing if I'm forced to go to 0.22 to get fixes to know bugs in 0.21, and 0.22 is totally not stable for me, nor is it apparently going to be anytime soon (and even less so without my helping you, which isn't very realistic due to what I explained ab
