Re: [EVDL] EV facts, coal and shooting ourselves in the foot
But in full disclosure, I am a solar junkie, and if I remember correctly, you are a hydrogen lobbyist paid to undermine EV's in favor of the fool-cell hydrogen economy. Your painting of EV's with the coal brush undermines your credibility too. Bob -Original Message- From: Mark Abramowitz [mailto:ma...@enviropolicy.com] Sent: Monday, August 17, 2015 4:34 PM To: Robert Bruninga; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV facts, coal and shooting ourselves in the foot I think I agree with everything you said EXCEPT that if coals provides most power, it *is* an issue, and a matter of credibility if you don't acknowledge it. Sure, if there are options to avoid that, by all means, point those out. In fact, it doesn't really matter what % is using those options. I don't think I said anything about condemning EV owners. Sent from my iPhone On Aug 17, 2015, at 1:20 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I agree, but in some areas a lot of the energy *is* being produced by coal. So there's a need to avoid understating that. I disagree completely. Electricity can be 90% coal in some areas, but if 83% of EV owners are putting up solar or subscribing to wind power then there is no need to condem all EV owners for coal when only 17% of them are using it and intend to continue to use it. Fortunately, the amount of electricity produced by coal will be dropping fairly quickly. But for 83% of us, it has dropped to Zero NOW. We aren't waiting. I'll be darned if I am going to be condemned for burning coal when I don't. Just like I don't like the implication that if 20% of Americans smoke, then on average, I smoke 4 out of every cigarette in every pack of 20. I don't smoke any and I don't use ANY coal for fuel for my EV. Bob, WB4APR Sent from my iPhone On Aug 17, 2015, at 6:05 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Who would have thought even a decade ago that FORD would be issuing apparently pro-EV news releases? That said, IMO we need to be a little more careful how we use the Ford survey data. It doesn't say that 83% of EV owners are charging their EVs with PV. It says that 83% of them HAVE or ARE INTERESTED IN GETTING PV capacity. That's a pretty substantial difference. Regrettably I can't find a web resource that breaks out the have-its from the wanna-have-its. So, this number doesn't really tell us anything about how many current EV owners are charging with alternative energy. What it does suggest is a strong correlation between EV ownership and environmental consciousness. In terms of selling and promoting EVs, you can view this in two ways. One is that promoters should fish where the fish are, and continue pushing EVs green cred or even increase these efforts. The other is to say that the way to increased EV adoption is to edge toward promoting their dollars-and- cents value. Which is the right EV promotion strategy? To determine that, we should look at the reasons that owners bought gas-only hybrids 10-12 years ago, vs why they buy them today. If we see a substantial increase in Prius and other non-pluggable hybrid sales among cost-conscious buyers over that decade, that might suggest that at some point (though maybe not yet) we should swing toward promoting EVs' economic benefits. If the majority of non-plug hybrid buyers still buy them for their greenness, that argues in favor of the first strategy above. Either way, we have a big job ahead of us to counter the growing negative PR being dispensed by the traditional energy providers. They have way more media clout than we do, and seem to be doing very well at sowing FUD about EVs supposedly increasing pollution with trumped-up, bogus data about coal fired powerplants. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] EVLN: Ventriloquist Fator is Tesla-S EV hooked waiting for his X
http://www.motortrend.com/features/consumer/1508_celebrity_drive_americas_got_talent_winner_terry_fator/
Celebrity Drive: America's Got Talent Winner Terry Fator
By K.S. Wang | August 10, 2015
[images
http://www.motortrend.com/features/consumer/1508_celebrity_drive_americas_got_talent_winner_terry_fator/photos/
Gallery
]
Ventriloquist Proves He's No Dummy By Driving a Tesla Model S
Quick Stats: Terry Fator, Ventriloquist/Winner of America's Got Talent
Daily Driver: 2013 Tesla Model S (Terry's rating: 10 on a scale of 1 to 10)
...
Terry Fator won America's Got Talent in 2007, which gave him the ability
to buy whatever car he wanted ... But he says his 2013 Tesla Model S is the
best car he's ever owned. I read Tesla had this electric car, and I was
like, 'Oh wow, that sounds awesome,' he says. So I signed up for it. It
said I was something like 50,000th in line, and I'm thinking, 'It will be
two years.' That year, in December, I get an email from them that says,
'Build your Tesla Model S.' So I was able to build it, and they delivered it
in January. It was less than six months after I signed up that I got my
car.
Fator is so hooked on Tesla that he's now waiting for the perpetually
delayed Model X. I'm 45,000th in line for that, he says. So hopefully,
quarter four of this year or quarter one of next year would be great.
He likes the fact that the Models S is incredibly user-friendly. I love my
Tesla, he says. Love it. Everything about it is streamlined. The 17-inch
screen makes it fun to drive. The (acceleration) is ridiculous. There's
hardly any maintenance at all. It's always connected to the Internet, so if
there's a problem, it'll alert Tesla, and they contact me and say, 'Hey, we
noticed that you're having a problem with this, and we're going to come out
and fix it.' It's just insane.
Besides the Tesla being sleek and gorgeous, Fator says the Tesla Model S
is also comfortable. Every person who has been in it has been like, 'Oh my
gosh, that's the best car I've ever been in.'
Although he did try to drive it once to Los Angeles, Fator mostly now only
drives the Tesla around Las Vegas, where he headlines at the Mirage ...
He gets about 200 miles on a charge around Vegas. And that's not even
charging the whole thing, he says. It's a 300-mile capacity, but I keep it
at about two-thirds. I only charge it at night. It is the most comfortable.
The back seat has tons of room, even my 6-foot-plus friends can sit in the
back seat comfortably. They have tons of legroom. It's beautiful, sleek,
stylish. It's just the best car I ever had. ...
[© 2015 MotorTrend Magazine]
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http://evdl.org/evln/
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[EVDL] EVLN: ~$30k r:200mi GM EV preproduction rendering
http://steeringnews.com/2017-chevrolet-bolt-ev-rendering-14609/
Near-production rendering of 2017 Chevrolet Bolt EV
August 11, 2015 Surya Solanki
[image
http://steeringnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/2017-Chevrolet-Bolt-front-three-quarters-right.jpg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvo2UJ2bvAY
2017 Chevrolet Bolt EV prototype
SteeringNews.com Jun 26, 2015
GM has released a video of the Chevrolet Bolt EV. The prototype's video was
shot at GM's Milford Proving Grounds in Milford, Michigan.
]
The Chevrolet Bolt EV concept was unveiled [
http://steeringnews.com/chevrolet-bolt-ev-concept-introduced-at-naias-5263/
] at the 2015 North American International Auto Show in January and was
confirmed [
http://steeringnews.com/chevrolet-bolt-ev-confirmed-for-production-6674/
] for production in February.
In June, GM released a video which showed the company testing Bolt EV
prototypes at the company’s Milford Proving Grounds in Michigan. Among other
things, the prototypes were being tested for the handling dynamics, cabin
comfort, quietness, charging capability, and energy efficiency.
The production version is expected to be nearly identical to the concept and
digital artist Shoeb Kalania has depicted his impression of the same in a
new rendering (featured image). Changes speculated include a restyled front
bumper and grille, slightly bigger headlamps, bigger ORVMs and different LED
taillights. The Bolt EV will have support for DC charging and will offer a
range of over 200 miles (322 km).
Its price will start at around US$ 30,000 and it will be sold in all 50
states of the U.S. market and in many global markets too. A Euro-spec
version bearing Vauxhall badge for the UK and Opel badge for rest of the
Europe is a possibility too.
The Bolt EV will enter production some time next year and the car is slated
to go on sale in H1 2017. GM has emphasised that the Bolt EV is meant for
the masses, unlike the Tesla cars, which can only be afforded by the premium
section of the society.
[© steeringnews.com]
http://www.autoevolution.com/news/2017-chevrolet-bolt-rendered-in-production-clothing-we-find-it-ready-to-inhabit-the-streets-98794.html
2017 Chevrolet Bolt Rendered in Production Clothing, We Find It Ready to
Inhabit the Streets
by Tudor Rus 13th August 2015
[image]
So far, there were a lot of rumors about the timing chosen by GM and
Chevrolet to launch the upcoming Bolt EV, with few details on specs.
However, some technical details have been travelling around the internet
but the EV's visual features are nowhere to be seen.
Sure, we have pictures with the Bolt prototype unveiled at the 2015 North
American International Auto Show in January, but we all know that the
concept's looks have zero chances of being 100 percent implemented on the
production model.
As usual, designers are the ones who can shed some light on
appearance-related matters, and it goes the same for the Bolt, thanks to a
rendering designed by Shoeb Kalania and posted on Steering News.
Even if this is Pixel Land we're talking about here, you can instantly spot
the fact that the car received a redesigned front bumper and grille,
slightly bigger headlamps, larger outside rear view mirrors and different
LED taillights. That's about it, so let's take a trip down memory lane and
see what we know so far about the upcoming Chevy Bolt.
For starters, last time we heard about the EV, two analysts monitoring GM's
production plans and launch schedule claimed the 2017 Bolt [
http://www.autoevolution.com/news/2017-chevrolet-bolt-previewed-by-camouflaged-prototype-video-photo-gallery-97083.html
] will enter production in October 2016, at the General Motors Orion
Assembly plant.
The reason invoked was that Chevy wants to become the first mainstream
carmaker with a long-range electric vehicle on the market.
When the Chevrolet Bolt finally hits the market, those interested in having
one will have to pay around $30,000 for one, with incentives and tax breaks.
Are you ready for more speculation?
For this kind of money, the Bolt will offer a maximum electric range
anywhere around 200 miles (321 km) on a single charge, which is double the
range provided by one of its possible competitors, the 2016 Nissan Leaf.
[© autoevolution.com]
For EVLN posts use:
http://evdl.org/evln/
http://chestertontribune.com/Town%20of%20Chesterton/charging_stations_evreserved_par.htm
Chesterton-IN Police Chief Cincoski is all over icing of EV spots
http://www.9and10news.com/story/29741982/tc-man-sentenced-for-riding-electric-scooter-while-drunk
4wheel e-scooter dui road warrior takes 2yr probation plea deal
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-33822287
25 L3/rapid added to 75 L2/fast EVSE across Kent,Sussex,Surrey.uk
http://www.blackmorevale.co.uk/8203-Rapid-Electric-vehicle-chargers-West-Dorset/story-27578914-detail/story.html
+
EVLN: 10 Charted Reasons Behind Electric Car Adoption In US Cities
{brucedp.150m.com}
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View this message in context:
[EVDL] EVLN: 10 Charts on Electric Car Adoption In US Cities
https://cleantechnica.com/2015/08/09/reasons-behind-electric-car-adoption-us-cities-10-charts/
Reasons Behind Electric Car Adoption In US Cities (10 Charts)
August 9th, 2015 by James Ayre
[images / ICCT
http://cleantechnica.com/files/2015/08/top-electric-vehicle-cities.png
top electric vehicle cities
http://cleantechnica.com/files/2015/08/Global-EV-Sales-growth.png
Global EV Sales growth
http://cleantechnica.com/files/2015/08/top-EV-cities-per-capita.png
top EV cities per capita
http://cleantechnica.com/files/2015/08/EV-Chargers-per-capita.png
EV Chargers per capita
http://cleantechnica.com/files/2015/08/1-Top-Electric-Car-Cities.png
1 Top Electric Car Cities
http://cleantechnica.com/files/2015/08/2-Top-Electric-Car-Cities.png
2 Top Electric Car Cities
http://cleantechnica.com/files/2015/08/3-Top-Electric-Car-Cities.png
3 Top Electric Car Cities
http://cleantechnica.com/files/2015/08/city-EV-subsidies.png
city EV subsidies
http://cleantechnica.com/files/2015/08/city-PHEV-subsidies.png
city PHEV subsidies
http://cleantechnica.com/files/2015/08/EV-city-policy.png
EV city policy
http://cleantechnica.com/files/2015/08/4-Top-Electric-Car-Cities.png
4 Top Electric Car Cities
http://cleantechnica.com/files/2015/08/5-Top-Electric-Car-Cities.png
5 Top Electric Car Cities
]
Some of the factors contributing to the relatively fast adoption of electric
vehicles (EV) in some American metropolitan markets have been identified and
characterized by a new study from the International Council on Clean
Transportation (ICCT).
The dominant ones, according to the new report, are: stronger consumer
incentives, a broader range of offerings, stronger promotional activities,
and a more developed charging infrastructure.
The new findings are the result of an analysis of actions taken by various
state + local governments and utility companies to spur EV adoption in the
25 most populous American metropolitan areas. These 25 areas represent
roughly 42% of the total population, 67% of new EV registrations, 46% of
vehicle sales, and 53% of the total EV charging infrastructure in the
country.
The report also analyzes the various benefits to end users of EVs in
specific cities — as well as aiming to differentiate the causes of market
uptake in different cities.
The 25 cities in question altogether possessed an average of 1.1% of total
vehicle sales being electric — roughly 40% higher than the nationwide
average. The 7 top cities — San Diego, Seattle, Portland, LA, Riverside, San
Francisco, and Atlanta — have an EV uptake between 2 and 7 times higher than
the countrywide average.
The 4 primary conclusions of the study are that: 1) policy is actively
driving EV adoption in many cities (manufacturers are specifically targeting
these cities); 2) different cities have used different approaches to
boosting sales (all of which seem to have been effective to some degree); 3)
best practices are beginning to emerge, it seems (which appear to support
the “ecosystem approach”); and 4) cities are the focal points of cooperation
between the various actors (auto manufacturers, governments, utility
companies, businesses, and EV advocates).
“The roles of automaker marketing efforts, dealer actions, and utility
action to promote electric vehicles seem clearly important and deserve
greater study. Cases like Atlanta, where there has been success that is
built almost exclusively upon one particular model (ie, the Nissan LEAF),
point to the need for further analysis of the underlying causes. Also,
smaller and mid-sized cities that are outside this study’s scope are
innovating with electric-drive policies and have greater electric vehicle
shares; these cities could be an important source of further lessons.”
To learn more, check out the full report [
http://theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/ICCT_EV-promotion-US-cities_20150729.pdf
]. [© cleantechnica.com]
...
http://gas2.org/2015/08/09/10-charts-explore-top-electric-car-cities-in-us/
10 Charts Explore Top Electric Car Cities In US
August 9th, 2015 by James Ayre
...
http://evobsession.com/top-ev-cities-in-us-10-charts/
Top EV Cities In US — 10 Charts
August 8th, 2015 by James Ayre
For EVLN posts use:
http://evdl.org/evln/
http://chestertontribune.com/Town%20of%20Chesterton/charging_stations_evreserved_par.htm
Chesterton-IN Police Chief Cincoski is all over icing of EV spots
http://www.9and10news.com/story/29741982/tc-man-sentenced-for-riding-electric-scooter-while-drunk
4wheel e-scooter dui road warrior takes 2yr probation plea deal
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-33822287
25 L3/rapid added to 75 L2/fast EVSE across Kent,Sussex,Surrey.uk
http://www.blackmorevale.co.uk/8203-Rapid-Electric-vehicle-chargers-West-Dorset/story-27578914-detail/story.html
+
EVLN: ~$30k pre-production r:200mi GM EV rendering
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View this message in context:
Re: [EVDL] EV facts, coal and shooting ourselves in the foot
I think I agree with everything you said EXCEPT that if coals provides most power, it *is* an issue, and a matter of credibility if you don't acknowledge it. Sure, if there are options to avoid that, by all means, point those out. In fact, it doesn't really matter what % is using those options. I don't think I said anything about condemning EV owners. Sent from my iPhone On Aug 17, 2015, at 1:20 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I agree, but in some areas a lot of the energy *is* being produced by coal. So there's a need to avoid understating that. I disagree completely. Electricity can be 90% coal in some areas, but if 83% of EV owners are putting up solar or subscribing to wind power then there is no need to condem all EV owners for coal when only 17% of them are using it and intend to continue to use it. Fortunately, the amount of electricity produced by coal will be dropping fairly quickly. But for 83% of us, it has dropped to Zero NOW. We aren't waiting. I'll be darned if I am going to be condemned for burning coal when I don't. Just like I don't like the implication that if 20% of Americans smoke, then on average, I smoke 4 out of every cigarette in every pack of 20. I don't smoke any and I don't use ANY coal for fuel for my EV. Bob, WB4APR Sent from my iPhone On Aug 17, 2015, at 6:05 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Who would have thought even a decade ago that FORD would be issuing apparently pro-EV news releases? That said, IMO we need to be a little more careful how we use the Ford survey data. It doesn't say that 83% of EV owners are charging their EVs with PV. It says that 83% of them HAVE or ARE INTERESTED IN GETTING PV capacity. That's a pretty substantial difference. Regrettably I can't find a web resource that breaks out the have-its from the wanna-have-its. So, this number doesn't really tell us anything about how many current EV owners are charging with alternative energy. What it does suggest is a strong correlation between EV ownership and environmental consciousness. In terms of selling and promoting EVs, you can view this in two ways. One is that promoters should fish where the fish are, and continue pushing EVs green cred or even increase these efforts. The other is to say that the way to increased EV adoption is to edge toward promoting their dollars-and- cents value. Which is the right EV promotion strategy? To determine that, we should look at the reasons that owners bought gas-only hybrids 10-12 years ago, vs why they buy them today. If we see a substantial increase in Prius and other non-pluggable hybrid sales among cost-conscious buyers over that decade, that might suggest that at some point (though maybe not yet) we should swing toward promoting EVs' economic benefits. If the majority of non-plug hybrid buyers still buy them for their greenness, that argues in favor of the first strategy above. Either way, we have a big job ahead of us to counter the growing negative PR being dispensed by the traditional energy providers. They have way more media clout than we do, and seem to be doing very well at sowing FUD about EVs supposedly increasing pollution with trumped-up, bogus data about coal fired powerplants. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EV facts, coal and shooting ourselves in the foot
Who would have thought even a decade ago that FORD would be issuing apparently pro-EV news releases? That said, IMO we need to be a little more careful how we use the Ford survey data. It doesn't say that 83% of EV owners are charging their EVs with PV. It says that 83% of them HAVE or ARE INTERESTED IN GETTING PV capacity. That's a pretty substantial difference. Regrettably I can't find a web resource that breaks out the have-its from the wanna-have-its. So, this number doesn't really tell us anything about how many current EV owners are charging with alternative energy. What it does suggest is a strong correlation between EV ownership and environmental consciousness. In terms of selling and promoting EVs, you can view this in two ways. One is that promoters should fish where the fish are, and continue pushing EVs green cred or even increase these efforts. The other is to say that the way to increased EV adoption is to edge toward promoting their dollars-and- cents value. Which is the right EV promotion strategy? To determine that, we should look at the reasons that owners bought gas-only hybrids 10-12 years ago, vs why they buy them today. If we see a substantial increase in Prius and other non-pluggable hybrid sales among cost-conscious buyers over that decade, that might suggest that at some point (though maybe not yet) we should swing toward promoting EVs' economic benefits. If the majority of non-plug hybrid buyers still buy them for their greenness, that argues in favor of the first strategy above. Either way, we have a big job ahead of us to counter the growing negative PR being dispensed by the traditional energy providers. They have way more media clout than we do, and seem to be doing very well at sowing FUD about EVs supposedly increasing pollution with trumped-up, bogus data about coal fired powerplants. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EV facts, coal and shooting ourselves in the foot
I see economics as being much less of a motivator than green environmentalism. Although I'm a 100% pro EV and Pro environment guy, I do have to admit that operating an EV is not convenient and is just generally a challenge. And I LOVE that challenge. But if you try to sell EV's on economics, those people who buy on economics alone will soon tire of the charging, and other challenges we find so rewarding. Besides, it is the fact that continuing to burn gas simply is not sustainable and is ruining us. Some people might not like hearing that, but it's the truth and only people that believe it are going to be motivaed to do something about it. Some ride bikes, some walk, some drive EV's. But selling EV's entirely on its cheaper is not a winning strategy in the short term especially with the cheaper gas for a while. Driving an EV is simply the right thing to do (if it fits your driving needs) and its fun. Bob -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL Administrator via EV Sent: Monday, August 17, 2015 9:06 AM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV facts, coal and shooting ourselves in the foot Who would have thought even a decade ago that FORD would be issuing apparently pro-EV news releases? That said, IMO we need to be a little more careful how we use the Ford survey data. It doesn't say that 83% of EV owners are charging their EVs with PV. It says that 83% of them HAVE or ARE INTERESTED IN GETTING PV capacity. That's a pretty substantial difference. Regrettably I can't find a web resource that breaks out the have-its from the wanna-have-its. So, this number doesn't really tell us anything about how many current EV owners are charging with alternative energy. What it does suggest is a strong correlation between EV ownership and environmental consciousness. In terms of selling and promoting EVs, you can view this in two ways. One is that promoters should fish where the fish are, and continue pushing EVs green cred or even increase these efforts. The other is to say that the way to increased EV adoption is to edge toward promoting their dollars-and- cents value. Which is the right EV promotion strategy? To determine that, we should look at the reasons that owners bought gas-only hybrids 10-12 years ago, vs why they buy them today. If we see a substantial increase in Prius and other non-pluggable hybrid sales among cost-conscious buyers over that decade, that might suggest that at some point (though maybe not yet) we should swing toward promoting EVs' economic benefits. If the majority of non-plug hybrid buyers still buy them for their greenness, that argues in favor of the first strategy above. Either way, we have a big job ahead of us to counter the growing negative PR being dispensed by the traditional energy providers. They have way more media clout than we do, and seem to be doing very well at sowing FUD about EVs supposedly increasing pollution with trumped-up, bogus data about coal fired powerplants. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EV facts, coal and shooting ourselves in the foot
I agree, but in some areas a lot of the energy *is* being produced by coal. So there's a need to avoid understating that. Fortunately, the amount of electricity produced by coal will be dropping fairly quickly. Sent from my iPhone On Aug 17, 2015, at 6:05 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Who would have thought even a decade ago that FORD would be issuing apparently pro-EV news releases? That said, IMO we need to be a little more careful how we use the Ford survey data. It doesn't say that 83% of EV owners are charging their EVs with PV. It says that 83% of them HAVE or ARE INTERESTED IN GETTING PV capacity. That's a pretty substantial difference. Regrettably I can't find a web resource that breaks out the have-its from the wanna-have-its. So, this number doesn't really tell us anything about how many current EV owners are charging with alternative energy. What it does suggest is a strong correlation between EV ownership and environmental consciousness. In terms of selling and promoting EVs, you can view this in two ways. One is that promoters should fish where the fish are, and continue pushing EVs green cred or even increase these efforts. The other is to say that the way to increased EV adoption is to edge toward promoting their dollars-and- cents value. Which is the right EV promotion strategy? To determine that, we should look at the reasons that owners bought gas-only hybrids 10-12 years ago, vs why they buy them today. If we see a substantial increase in Prius and other non-pluggable hybrid sales among cost-conscious buyers over that decade, that might suggest that at some point (though maybe not yet) we should swing toward promoting EVs' economic benefits. If the majority of non-plug hybrid buyers still buy them for their greenness, that argues in favor of the first strategy above. Either way, we have a big job ahead of us to counter the growing negative PR being dispensed by the traditional energy providers. They have way more media clout than we do, and seem to be doing very well at sowing FUD about EVs supposedly increasing pollution with trumped-up, bogus data about coal fired powerplants. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: NYPD busting seizing escooters ebicycles
Think what would happen if the messengers and delivery people in NYC had Ebikes - I caught this youtube video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OwyQNRjo6c Rush Dougherty Tucson AZ 85719 -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de Water via EV Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 5:46 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: NYPD busting seizing escooters ebicycles The problem is in NY state, any motorized bike is illegal to ride on public streets, since the law does not allow them. Stupid, but that is the situation. So, first the law needs to be changed, then education how to ride (and e-bike) safely can follow. Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com Email: cwa...@proxim.comPrivate: http://www.cvandewater.info Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130 Tel: +1 408 383 7626Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 -Original Message- From: EV on behalf of Larry Gales via EV Sent: Sat 7/11/2015 5:43 PM To: Rush Dougherty; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Cc: EVDL Administrator Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: NYPD busting seizing escooters ebicycles But are you talking about eBike RIDERS or eBike COURIERS? Yes, the eBike delivery people ride like maniacs because they have a strong economic incentive to drive as fast as possible, but all eBike riders (who can contribute to lower traffic congestion, parking, and pollution), should not suffer because of these few. Granted, all bike riders should learn to obey the laws, but this should be much easier to do in an eBike, because you have no strong incentive to maintain your momentum: it is just as easy to go uphill in an eBike, as on the level. On Sat, Jul 11, 2015 at 2:50 PM, Rush Dougherty via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: While the law may be dumb and the facts cited wrong. The main negative thing about these electric scooters and electric bikes is that the riders TOTALLY ignore any law, they are actually quite dangereous. Even the average pedal bike rider ignores all the traffic laws. The name of the delivery game is how fast you can make your delivery period, not how fast you can do it and still respect the traffic rules. If the ebike riders would stop when they are supposed to, ride with the traffic, stay on the road, not the sidewalk etc, I'm sure they would be supported. But they don't obey the laws. Rush Dougherty Tucson AZ 85719 -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL Administrator via EV Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 1:25 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: NYPD busting seizing escooters ebicycles Dumb, dumb law. NYC needs low-impact 2-wheel transportation as much as any other large city. We try to confiscate them as soon as we see them is the sort of action that can give the law a bad name. It sounds too much like the abuse of asset forfeiture laws that's been in the news for the last few years. These laws need to be modernized, pronto. At the same time, bike riders need to obey the traffic laws, whether their bikes have motors or not. Here in Ohio, no registration is required for e-bikes under 750 Watts. The law does require either a driver's license or a probationary motorized bicycle license which you can get at age 14 by passing a test. Not that I'd ever condone breaking the law, but today there's no reason that an e-bike can't look exactly like an unpowered bike. A modern hub motor can be surprisingly inconspicuous. Lithium batteries and wiring can be packaged inside the frame tubes. In fact powered bikes can be so subtle that for several years now the Tour de France has been plagued by rumors of doped bikes or mechanical doping. http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/fresh-motorised-dopi ng- claims-ryder-hesjedals-bike-moves-134745 http://v.gd/FjUNaD Anyone trying to ride electrically under the radar would need to use plenty of discretion, which I hope would prevent the kind of shenanigans that seem be be raising a few gripes in NYC. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV
Re: [EVDL] EV facts, coal and shooting ourselves in the foot
On Aug 17, 2015, at 1:20 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: But for 83% of us, it has dropped to Zero NOW. We aren't waiting. In addition to this very important point, there's another equally-important point to be made. Coal is nasty, yes. But so is petroleum. And even those EVs that are powered primarily by utility-scale coal-fired generators are to be preferred over those powered by gasoline. The greater thermodynamic and mechanical efficiencies work out on a per-mile basis in favor of EVs, for one...but even if they didn't...well, we've got lots more coal than we do petroleum, and we need the petroleum for plastics and fertilizer and lubricants and all sorts of other things that civilization would collapse without. Just shifting the personal transportation fleet from petroleum to coal would be more than reason enough to endorse EVs. That we're shifting from petroleum not to coal but to solar is very good! But shifting away from petroleum to anything else is as important in the short term as shifting from anything else to solar is in the long term. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EV facts, coal and shooting ourselves in the foot
I agree, but in some areas a lot of the energy *is* being produced by coal. So there's a need to avoid understating that. I disagree completely. Electricity can be 90% coal in some areas, but if 83% of EV owners are putting up solar or subscribing to wind power then there is no need to condem all EV owners for coal when only 17% of them are using it and intend to continue to use it. Fortunately, the amount of electricity produced by coal will be dropping fairly quickly. But for 83% of us, it has dropped to Zero NOW. We aren't waiting. I'll be darned if I am going to be condemned for burning coal when I don't. Just like I don't like the implication that if 20% of Americans smoke, then on average, I smoke 4 out of every cigarette in every pack of 20. I don't smoke any and I don't use ANY coal for fuel for my EV. Bob, WB4APR Sent from my iPhone On Aug 17, 2015, at 6:05 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Who would have thought even a decade ago that FORD would be issuing apparently pro-EV news releases? That said, IMO we need to be a little more careful how we use the Ford survey data. It doesn't say that 83% of EV owners are charging their EVs with PV. It says that 83% of them HAVE or ARE INTERESTED IN GETTING PV capacity. That's a pretty substantial difference. Regrettably I can't find a web resource that breaks out the have-its from the wanna-have-its. So, this number doesn't really tell us anything about how many current EV owners are charging with alternative energy. What it does suggest is a strong correlation between EV ownership and environmental consciousness. In terms of selling and promoting EVs, you can view this in two ways. One is that promoters should fish where the fish are, and continue pushing EVs green cred or even increase these efforts. The other is to say that the way to increased EV adoption is to edge toward promoting their dollars-and- cents value. Which is the right EV promotion strategy? To determine that, we should look at the reasons that owners bought gas-only hybrids 10-12 years ago, vs why they buy them today. If we see a substantial increase in Prius and other non-pluggable hybrid sales among cost-conscious buyers over that decade, that might suggest that at some point (though maybe not yet) we should swing toward promoting EVs' economic benefits. If the majority of non-plug hybrid buyers still buy them for their greenness, that argues in favor of the first strategy above. Either way, we have a big job ahead of us to counter the growing negative PR being dispensed by the traditional energy providers. They have way more media clout than we do, and seem to be doing very well at sowing FUD about EVs supposedly increasing pollution with trumped-up, bogus data about coal fired powerplants. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
