Re: [EVDL] Goodbye old friend.
On 11 Dec 2022 at 20:32, Peri Hartman via EV wrote: > Regardless, my main point is Tesla (and others) *could* brick cars or > certain functionality. But I don't think they will because of enormous > public backlash. You have more confidence in corporations than I do. Who really likes paying $2,000 per litre for inkjet printer ink? There's been a public backlash against printer manufacturers' tricks to make printers reject refilled ink and toner cartridges, but has that stopped them? If you buy something but the manufacturer maintains control of it, you don't own it. You've only bought limited rights to use it, for only as long as you don't displease the manufacturer by so doing. The only way to possibly inhibit this rent-seeking behavior is LEGISLATION. And even that may not work well without real teeth - like fines based on a percentage of worldwide revenue and mandatory jail time - because large manufacturers' CEOs consider regulatory fines just a cost of doing business. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Yearly reminder: unless you're over 60, you weren't promised flying cars. You were promised an oppressive cyberpunk dystopia. Here you go. -- Kyle Marquis = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Goodbye old friend.
8:18 AM, Mr. Sharkey via EV wrote: > > >> >>Oh sure, I get that. Problem is, they came on at first promising > > >>affordable transportation. Then the Musk-cult mentality took over, and > > >>now they produce high-end vehicles for people with disposable income > > >>who don't mind laying it out for something most of the rest of us > > >>can't -or won't- afford. > > >> >So you are saying that they should first produce a cheaper very low > > >>profit margin vehicle - so that they won't have enough cash to grow > > >>production at a high rate and be able to product a LOT more vehicles? > > >> >___ > > >> >Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > > >> >No other addresses in TO and CC fields > > >> >HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > > >> > > > >> > > >>___ > > >>Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > > >>No other addresses in TO and CC fields > > >>HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > > >> > > -- next part -- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: < > > > http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221211/70e6b8bf/attachment.htm > > > > > ___ > > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > > > > > > > > > > -- next part -- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: < > > > http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221211/2f5066a5/attachment.htm > > > > > ___ > > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > > > > > > -- next part -- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: < > > > http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221212/8e1bd026/attachment.htm > > > > > ___ > > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > > > > > > -- > Robert "Anaerin" Johnston > -- next part -- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221211/0cb3f895/attachment.htm > > > ___ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221211/0771421b/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Goodbye old friend.
Don't salvaged and repaired cars need a safety inspection before they can be put back on the road and registered/insured? On Sun, 11 Dec 2022 at 20:48, Lawrence Winiarski via EV wrote: > Hmwould gas stations refuse to give gas to salvaged cars because > the gas station might "burn down"? > > >On Sunday, December 11, 2022 at 04:15:20 PM PST, paul dove via EV < > ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote: > > That is not bricking a car! It will charge just not on. Supercharger. > This is to protect superchargers from burning down not to prevent repairs. > Like it or not they own the superchargers. > > > Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone > > > On Sunday, December 11, 2022, 2:32 PM, Peri Hartman via EV < > ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote: > > Paul, I may have overstated my claim. But here's a partially relevant > reference: > > https://electrek.co/2020/02/12/tesla-disables-supercharging-salvaged-vehicles/ > where Tesla has disabled supercharging on salvaged Teslas. I don't know > if they are still doing that. > > Regardless, my main point is Tesla (and others) *could* brick cars or > certain functionality. But I don't think they will because of enormous > public backlash. > > Peri > > << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >> > > -- Original Message -- > From: "paul dove" > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" > Cc: "Peri Hartman" > Sent: 11-Dec-22 11:14:10 > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Goodbye old friend. > > >How in the world would you know Tesla bricks batteries? Gives some > >names and sources of you facts! > > > > > >Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone > ><https://more.att.com/currently/imap> > > > >On Sunday, December 11, 2022, 10:53 AM, Peri Hartman via EV > > wrote: > > > >>There's lots of malaise Tesla - and all the manufacturers, for that > >>matter - could impose. For example, certain sensors could "stop > >>working" > >>after some particular time. Or, the right rear door lock could stop > >>functioning properly. In the worst case, they could brick the car. It > >>may be difficult to determine whether such problems are caused by a > >>software disabling action or if something actually failed. However, I > >>am > >>not too concerned. If a manufacturer actually imposed such behaviors, > >>and were caught, they would be heavily punished. And, that would be > >>regardless of what the fine print in the purchase agreement said. > >> > >>I am aware that Tesla has bricked cars, or at least batteries put into > >>non Tesla cars. It does get into a grey area: what modifications are > >>you > >>allowed to do and what not ? Different discussion. > >> > >>I understand, from the manufacturer's point of view, that they want > >>and > >>need to control the software in the car. For the most part, I think > >>that's an advantage to all of us. The problem is, we have to trust > >>them > >>to not do anything to break functionality in the future. Time will > >>tell, > >>I guess. > >> > >>Peri > >> > >><< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >> > >> > >>-- Original Message -- > >>From: "John Lussmyer via EV" > >>To: "Mr. Sharkey via EV" > >>Cc: "John Lussmyer" > >>Sent: 11-Dec-22 08:29:19 > >>Subject: Re: [EVDL] Goodbye old friend. > >> > >> >On 12/11/2022 8:18 AM, Mr. Sharkey via EV wrote: > >> >>Oh sure, I get that. Problem is, they came on at first promising > >>affordable transportation. Then the Musk-cult mentality took over, and > >>now they produce high-end vehicles for people with disposable income > >>who don't mind laying it out for something most of the rest of us > >>can't -or won't- afford. > >> >So you are saying that they should first produce a cheaper very low > >>profit margin vehicle - so that they won't have enough cash to grow > >>production at a high rate and be able to product a LOT more vehicles? > >> >___ > >> >Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > >> >No other addresses in TO and CC fields > >> >HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > >> > > >> > >>___ > >>Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > >>No other addresses in TO and CC fields > >>
Re: [EVDL] Goodbye old friend.
Hmwould gas stations refuse to give gas to salvaged cars because the gas station might "burn down"? On Sunday, December 11, 2022 at 04:15:20 PM PST, paul dove via EV wrote: That is not bricking a car! It will charge just not on. Supercharger. This is to protect superchargers from burning down not to prevent repairs. Like it or not they own the superchargers. Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Sunday, December 11, 2022, 2:32 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote: Paul, I may have overstated my claim. But here's a partially relevant reference: https://electrek.co/2020/02/12/tesla-disables-supercharging-salvaged-vehicles/ where Tesla has disabled supercharging on salvaged Teslas. I don't know if they are still doing that. Regardless, my main point is Tesla (and others) *could* brick cars or certain functionality. But I don't think they will because of enormous public backlash. Peri << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >> -- Original Message -- From: "paul dove" To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" Cc: "Peri Hartman" Sent: 11-Dec-22 11:14:10 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Goodbye old friend. >How in the world would you know Tesla bricks batteries? Gives some >names and sources of you facts! > > >Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone ><https://more.att.com/currently/imap> > >On Sunday, December 11, 2022, 10:53 AM, Peri Hartman via EV > wrote: > >>There's lots of malaise Tesla - and all the manufacturers, for that >>matter - could impose. For example, certain sensors could "stop >>working" >>after some particular time. Or, the right rear door lock could stop >>functioning properly. In the worst case, they could brick the car. It >>may be difficult to determine whether such problems are caused by a >>software disabling action or if something actually failed. However, I >>am >>not too concerned. If a manufacturer actually imposed such behaviors, >>and were caught, they would be heavily punished. And, that would be >>regardless of what the fine print in the purchase agreement said. >> >>I am aware that Tesla has bricked cars, or at least batteries put into >>non Tesla cars. It does get into a grey area: what modifications are >>you >>allowed to do and what not ? Different discussion. >> >>I understand, from the manufacturer's point of view, that they want >>and >>need to control the software in the car. For the most part, I think >>that's an advantage to all of us. The problem is, we have to trust >>them >>to not do anything to break functionality in the future. Time will >>tell, >>I guess. >> >>Peri >> >><< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >> >> >>-- Original Message -- >>From: "John Lussmyer via EV" >>To: "Mr. Sharkey via EV" >>Cc: "John Lussmyer" >>Sent: 11-Dec-22 08:29:19 >>Subject: Re: [EVDL] Goodbye old friend. >> >> >On 12/11/2022 8:18 AM, Mr. Sharkey via EV wrote: >> >>Oh sure, I get that. Problem is, they came on at first promising >>affordable transportation. Then the Musk-cult mentality took over, and >>now they produce high-end vehicles for people with disposable income >>who don't mind laying it out for something most of the rest of us >>can't -or won't- afford. >> >So you are saying that they should first produce a cheaper very low >>profit margin vehicle - so that they won't have enough cash to grow >>production at a high rate and be able to product a LOT more vehicles? >> >___ >> >Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org >> >No other addresses in TO and CC fields >> >HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ >> > >> >>___ >>Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org >>No other addresses in TO and CC fields >>HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ >> -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221211/70e6b8bf/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221211/2f5066a5/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221212/8e1bd026/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Goodbye old friend.
Now that Tesla is after that sweet federal stimulus money for charging providers, they are suddenly walking back the "we disabled it for safety" excuse. To qualify for federal money, they have to accept ALL EVs with CCS. If they discriminate, they could be denied funds. On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 4:15 PM paul dove via EV wrote: > That is not bricking a car! It will charge just not on. Supercharger. This > is to protect superchargers from burning down not to prevent repairs. Like > it or not they own the superchargers. > > > Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone > > > On Sunday, December 11, 2022, 2:32 PM, Peri Hartman via EV < > ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote: > > Paul, I may have overstated my claim. But here's a partially relevant > reference: > > https://electrek.co/2020/02/12/tesla-disables-supercharging-salvaged-vehicles/ > where Tesla has disabled supercharging on salvaged Teslas. I don't know > if they are still doing that. > > Regardless, my main point is Tesla (and others) *could* brick cars or > certain functionality. But I don't think they will because of enormous > public backlash. > > Peri > > << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >> > > -- Original Message -- > From: "paul dove" > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" > Cc: "Peri Hartman" > Sent: 11-Dec-22 11:14:10 > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Goodbye old friend. > > >How in the world would you know Tesla bricks batteries? Gives some > >names and sources of you facts! > > > > > >Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone > ><https://more.att.com/currently/imap> > > > >On Sunday, December 11, 2022, 10:53 AM, Peri Hartman via EV > > wrote: > > > >>There's lots of malaise Tesla - and all the manufacturers, for that > >>matter - could impose. For example, certain sensors could "stop > >>working" > >>after some particular time. Or, the right rear door lock could stop > >>functioning properly. In the worst case, they could brick the car. It > >>may be difficult to determine whether such problems are caused by a > >>software disabling action or if something actually failed. However, I > >>am > >>not too concerned. If a manufacturer actually imposed such behaviors, > >>and were caught, they would be heavily punished. And, that would be > >>regardless of what the fine print in the purchase agreement said. > >> > >>I am aware that Tesla has bricked cars, or at least batteries put into > >>non Tesla cars. It does get into a grey area: what modifications are > >>you > >>allowed to do and what not ? Different discussion. > >> > >>I understand, from the manufacturer's point of view, that they want > >>and > >>need to control the software in the car. For the most part, I think > >>that's an advantage to all of us. The problem is, we have to trust > >>them > >>to not do anything to break functionality in the future. Time will > >>tell, > >>I guess. > >> > >>Peri > >> > >><< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >> > >> > >>-- Original Message -- > >>From: "John Lussmyer via EV" > >>To: "Mr. Sharkey via EV" > >>Cc: "John Lussmyer" > >>Sent: 11-Dec-22 08:29:19 > >>Subject: Re: [EVDL] Goodbye old friend. > >> > >> >On 12/11/2022 8:18 AM, Mr. Sharkey via EV wrote: > >> >>Oh sure, I get that. Problem is, they came on at first promising > >>affordable transportation. Then the Musk-cult mentality took over, and > >>now they produce high-end vehicles for people with disposable income > >>who don't mind laying it out for something most of the rest of us > >>can't -or won't- afford. > >> >So you are saying that they should first produce a cheaper very low > >>profit margin vehicle - so that they won't have enough cash to grow > >>production at a high rate and be able to product a LOT more vehicles? > >> >___ > >> >Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > >> >No other addresses in TO and CC fields > >> >HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > >> > > >> > >>___ > >>Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > >>No other addresses in TO and CC fields > >>HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > >> > -- next part ------ > An H
Re: [EVDL] Goodbye old friend.
Why not both? Sell a very large number of very expensive vehicles with high margin On 12/12/2022 1:32 am, Lee Hart via EV wrote: John Lussmyer via EV wrote: So you are saying that they should first produce a cheaper very low profit margin vehicle - so that they won't have enough cash to grow production at a high rate and be able to product a LOT more vehicles? Henry Ford did. So did VW. Success can be found by selling a very small number of very expensive vehicles... or a very large number of inexpensive vehicles. Which one is likely to put the world on (EV) wheels? Lee ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Goodbye old friend.
That is not bricking a car! It will charge just not on. Supercharger. This is to protect superchargers from burning down not to prevent repairs. Like it or not they own the superchargers. Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Sunday, December 11, 2022, 2:32 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote: Paul, I may have overstated my claim. But here's a partially relevant reference: https://electrek.co/2020/02/12/tesla-disables-supercharging-salvaged-vehicles/ where Tesla has disabled supercharging on salvaged Teslas. I don't know if they are still doing that. Regardless, my main point is Tesla (and others) *could* brick cars or certain functionality. But I don't think they will because of enormous public backlash. Peri << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >> -- Original Message -- From: "paul dove" To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" Cc: "Peri Hartman" Sent: 11-Dec-22 11:14:10 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Goodbye old friend. >How in the world would you know Tesla bricks batteries? Gives some >names and sources of you facts! > > >Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone ><https://more.att.com/currently/imap> > >On Sunday, December 11, 2022, 10:53 AM, Peri Hartman via EV > wrote: > >>There's lots of malaise Tesla - and all the manufacturers, for that >>matter - could impose. For example, certain sensors could "stop >>working" >>after some particular time. Or, the right rear door lock could stop >>functioning properly. In the worst case, they could brick the car. It >>may be difficult to determine whether such problems are caused by a >>software disabling action or if something actually failed. However, I >>am >>not too concerned. If a manufacturer actually imposed such behaviors, >>and were caught, they would be heavily punished. And, that would be >>regardless of what the fine print in the purchase agreement said. >> >>I am aware that Tesla has bricked cars, or at least batteries put into >>non Tesla cars. It does get into a grey area: what modifications are >>you >>allowed to do and what not ? Different discussion. >> >>I understand, from the manufacturer's point of view, that they want >>and >>need to control the software in the car. For the most part, I think >>that's an advantage to all of us. The problem is, we have to trust >>them >>to not do anything to break functionality in the future. Time will >>tell, >>I guess. >> >>Peri >> >><< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >> >> >>-- Original Message -- >>From: "John Lussmyer via EV" >>To: "Mr. Sharkey via EV" >>Cc: "John Lussmyer" >>Sent: 11-Dec-22 08:29:19 >>Subject: Re: [EVDL] Goodbye old friend. >> >> >On 12/11/2022 8:18 AM, Mr. Sharkey via EV wrote: >> >>Oh sure, I get that. Problem is, they came on at first promising >>affordable transportation. Then the Musk-cult mentality took over, and >>now they produce high-end vehicles for people with disposable income >>who don't mind laying it out for something most of the rest of us >>can't -or won't- afford. >> >So you are saying that they should first produce a cheaper very low >>profit margin vehicle - so that they won't have enough cash to grow >>production at a high rate and be able to product a LOT more vehicles? >> >___ >> >Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org >> >No other addresses in TO and CC fields >> >HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ >> > >> >>___ >>Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org >>No other addresses in TO and CC fields >>HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ >> -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221211/70e6b8bf/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221211/2f5066a5/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Goodbye old friend.
Paul, I may have overstated my claim. But here's a partially relevant reference: https://electrek.co/2020/02/12/tesla-disables-supercharging-salvaged-vehicles/ where Tesla has disabled supercharging on salvaged Teslas. I don't know if they are still doing that. Regardless, my main point is Tesla (and others) *could* brick cars or certain functionality. But I don't think they will because of enormous public backlash. Peri << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >> -- Original Message -- From: "paul dove" To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" Cc: "Peri Hartman" Sent: 11-Dec-22 11:14:10 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Goodbye old friend. How in the world would you know Tesla bricks batteries? Gives some names and sources of you facts! Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone <https://more.att.com/currently/imap> On Sunday, December 11, 2022, 10:53 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote: There's lots of malaise Tesla - and all the manufacturers, for that matter - could impose. For example, certain sensors could "stop working" after some particular time. Or, the right rear door lock could stop functioning properly. In the worst case, they could brick the car. It may be difficult to determine whether such problems are caused by a software disabling action or if something actually failed. However, I am not too concerned. If a manufacturer actually imposed such behaviors, and were caught, they would be heavily punished. And, that would be regardless of what the fine print in the purchase agreement said. I am aware that Tesla has bricked cars, or at least batteries put into non Tesla cars. It does get into a grey area: what modifications are you allowed to do and what not ? Different discussion. I understand, from the manufacturer's point of view, that they want and need to control the software in the car. For the most part, I think that's an advantage to all of us. The problem is, we have to trust them to not do anything to break functionality in the future. Time will tell, I guess. Peri << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >> -- Original Message -- From: "John Lussmyer via EV" To: "Mr. Sharkey via EV" Cc: "John Lussmyer" Sent: 11-Dec-22 08:29:19 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Goodbye old friend. >On 12/11/2022 8:18 AM, Mr. Sharkey via EV wrote: >>Oh sure, I get that. Problem is, they came on at first promising affordable transportation. Then the Musk-cult mentality took over, and now they produce high-end vehicles for people with disposable income who don't mind laying it out for something most of the rest of us can't -or won't- afford. >So you are saying that they should first produce a cheaper very low profit margin vehicle - so that they won't have enough cash to grow production at a high rate and be able to product a LOT more vehicles? >___ >Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org >No other addresses in TO and CC fields >HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221211/70e6b8bf/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Goodbye old friend.
Certainly possible — I remember paying a mere $17k for a first-gen-in-the-US Prius because the thing looked like a Tercel that had been beaten with an ugly stick — but I also fear that at the low end, access issues to reliable charging power in cheaper housing start to create new issues we don’t yet have solved. Regardless of my right to access charging power I have lived in apartments that simply didn’t have a place to park my car near a power source. n On Sun, Dec 11, 2022, at 10:39, Mr. Sharkey via EV wrote: > > So, why isn't the Nissan Leaf outselling Teslas? > > Couldn't possibly have anything to do with its appearance, could it? ;-P > > NOTE! NOTE! NOTE! NOTE! NOTE! NOTE! > Due to an overload of spam and other issues, I've decided to > deactivate my Juno mail account. > All new messages should be directed to me at: shar...@housetrucks.org > Please update your address book to reflect this change, > I'll continue to check the old account for a short time. > > ___ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20221211/249e1c27/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Goodbye old friend.
John Lussmyer via EV wrote: On 12/11/2022 9:32 AM, Lee Hart via EV wrote: John Lussmyer via EV wrote: So you are saying that they should first produce a cheaper very low profit margin vehicle - so that they won't have enough cash to grow production at a high rate and be able to product a LOT more vehicles? Henry Ford did. So did VW. Success can be found by selling a very small number of very expensive vehicles... or a very large number of inexpensive vehicles. Which one is likely to put the world on (EV) wheels? So, why isn't the Nissan Leaf outselling Teslas? It's a low-cost EV. I don't know the secret formula for success. Apparently, neither does Nissan. But I do think it lies somewhere in what Paul MacCready of Aerovironment said when they made the Impact EV for GM. "It wasn't a success because we got one thing perfect; it was because we got everything good enough." I think the problem the automakers have is that they are trying to optimize just one thing; and that is profit. Everything else falls by the wayside. Lee -- "#3 pencils and quadrille pads." -- Seymour Cray, when asked what CAD tools he used to design the Cray I supercomputer -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Goodbye old friend.
I think Tesla started off right. Sell a very expensive high performance EV. It let them figure things out on the way and provided good profit margins at low volumes. BUT they did indicate the long goal was affordable EVs and they touched that goal briefly before dropping ‘basic’ models in favor of higher profit ones. I get it but it is disappointing. I think the way Twitter is being run at the moment makes me realize that Musk us not a savvy businessman. Perhaps he thought he could truly build affordable EVs but really didn’t plan well. Good side is it made GM and others take notice and get serious about the EV market so we have good, affordable EVs now, just not from Tesla. -Steve > On Dec 11, 2022, at 12:46 PM, John Lussmyer via EV wrote: > > On 12/11/2022 9:32 AM, Lee Hart via EV wrote: >> John Lussmyer via EV wrote: >>> So you are saying that they should first produce a cheaper very low profit >>> margin vehicle - so that they won't have enough cash to grow production at >>> a high rate and be able to product a LOT more vehicles? >> >> Henry Ford did. So did VW. >> >> Success can be found by selling a very small number of very expensive >> vehicles... or a very large number of inexpensive vehicles. Which one is >> likely to put the world on (EV) wheels? > > So, why isn't the Nissan Leaf outselling Teslas? > It's a low-cost EV. > > ___ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Goodbye old friend.
> So, why isn't the Nissan Leaf outselling Teslas? Couldn't possibly have anything to do with its appearance, could it? ;-P NOTE! NOTE! NOTE! NOTE! NOTE! NOTE! Due to an overload of spam and other issues, I've decided to deactivate my Juno mail account. All new messages should be directed to me at: shar...@housetrucks.org Please update your address book to reflect this change, I'll continue to check the old account for a short time. ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Goodbye old friend.
> won't have enough cash to grow production at a high rate and be able to > product [produce] a LOT more vehicles? No, as I said, and you quoted, I get that. I guess I am bemoaning, generally, the direction that vehicle, and apparently all manufacturing is going. I know two people who sold lightly-used tractors for more than the original purchase price because those tractors were made before software and emissions controls were imposed on all the new product lines. John Deere and Kubota (to name two) have locked out users from all but the most basic maintenance and aftermarket parts acquisition. The owner of the Kubota was very displeased to find that his new 90 HP replacement tractor required him to operate it in particular ways to satisfy the DEF system, which makes it less useful for his purposes. Did Ford, Nissan (Datsun) or VW start out making high-end vehicles? I seem to remember that they began with modest offerings and built a reputation and business model based on the merits of their product and at least seemingly honest business models. Today, we have manufacturers who take the pharmaceutical industries approach, and give the consumer a take-it-or-leave it choice, never stooping to provide for potential customers who neither want nor need more than basic transportation (in the case of EV's, looking at Tesla, Ford, et al). The few that did build and sell useful basic-feature EVs have done pretty will by them, they held up mostly well, were popular (in spite of being ugly, and not in a cute way), and must not have been too much of a revenue loss for an otherwise successful car maker to put out. In the end, I don't see a trickle-down effect, at least not with the familiar players we have to work with. They seem more likely to continue to produce high-end, high profit products that sell to a significant portion of the population and make them yet more money. Why down-size when you are riding high? Does anybody ~really~ think that they are that altruistic? NOTE! NOTE! NOTE! NOTE! NOTE! NOTE! Due to an overload of spam and other issues, I've decided to deactivate my Juno mail account. All new messages should be directed to me at: shar...@housetrucks.org Please update your address book to reflect this change, I'll continue to check the old account for a short time. ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Goodbye old friend.
On 12/11/2022 9:32 AM, Lee Hart via EV wrote: John Lussmyer via EV wrote: So you are saying that they should first produce a cheaper very low profit margin vehicle - so that they won't have enough cash to grow production at a high rate and be able to product a LOT more vehicles? Henry Ford did. So did VW. Success can be found by selling a very small number of very expensive vehicles... or a very large number of inexpensive vehicles. Which one is likely to put the world on (EV) wheels? So, why isn't the Nissan Leaf outselling Teslas? It's a low-cost EV. ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Goodbye old friend.
John Lussmyer via EV wrote: So you are saying that they should first produce a cheaper very low profit margin vehicle - so that they won't have enough cash to grow production at a high rate and be able to product a LOT more vehicles? Henry Ford did. So did VW. Success can be found by selling a very small number of very expensive vehicles... or a very large number of inexpensive vehicles. Which one is likely to put the world on (EV) wheels? Lee -- "#3 pencils and quadrille pads." -- Seymour Cray, when asked what CAD tools he used to design the Cray I supercomputer -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Goodbye old friend.
There's lots of malaise Tesla - and all the manufacturers, for that matter - could impose. For example, certain sensors could "stop working" after some particular time. Or, the right rear door lock could stop functioning properly. In the worst case, they could brick the car. It may be difficult to determine whether such problems are caused by a software disabling action or if something actually failed. However, I am not too concerned. If a manufacturer actually imposed such behaviors, and were caught, they would be heavily punished. And, that would be regardless of what the fine print in the purchase agreement said. I am aware that Tesla has bricked cars, or at least batteries put into non Tesla cars. It does get into a grey area: what modifications are you allowed to do and what not ? Different discussion. I understand, from the manufacturer's point of view, that they want and need to control the software in the car. For the most part, I think that's an advantage to all of us. The problem is, we have to trust them to not do anything to break functionality in the future. Time will tell, I guess. Peri << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >> -- Original Message -- From: "John Lussmyer via EV" To: "Mr. Sharkey via EV" Cc: "John Lussmyer" Sent: 11-Dec-22 08:29:19 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Goodbye old friend. On 12/11/2022 8:18 AM, Mr. Sharkey via EV wrote: Oh sure, I get that. Problem is, they came on at first promising affordable transportation. Then the Musk-cult mentality took over, and now they produce high-end vehicles for people with disposable income who don't mind laying it out for something most of the rest of us can't -or won't- afford. So you are saying that they should first produce a cheaper very low profit margin vehicle - so that they won't have enough cash to grow production at a high rate and be able to product a LOT more vehicles? ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Goodbye old friend.
On 12/11/2022 8:18 AM, Mr. Sharkey via EV wrote: Oh sure, I get that. Problem is, they came on at first promising affordable transportation. Then the Musk-cult mentality took over, and now they produce high-end vehicles for people with disposable income who don't mind laying it out for something most of the rest of us can't -or won't- afford. So you are saying that they should first produce a cheaper very low profit margin vehicle - so that they won't have enough cash to grow production at a high rate and be able to product a LOT more vehicles? ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Goodbye old friend.
> why fault them for profiting from their groundbreaking work? Oh sure, I get that. Problem is, they came on at first promising affordable transportation. Then the Musk-cult mentality took over, and now they produce high-end vehicles for people with disposable income who don't mind laying it out for something most of the rest of us can't -or won't- afford. Then there's the little problem of who actually owns the rights to the car. Otmar is the poster child of this question. You might own the hardware, but "they" own the software, you're only purchasing a license to use it. A license they can revoke at will. A recent purchase for my current project was a FM broadcast transmitter. I bought the "basic" version offered, as I didn't need all the bells and whistles. The manufacturer only builds one hardware product, and then releases access to the additional features when licenses are purchased. The license allows use of the features, some permanently functional, although others are on a subscription basis and must be renewed. Makes sense from the manufacturers standpoint, uniform production and construction, designs and costs, etc. As an end user, I probably paid more for this transmitter than necessary, as I'm helping pay out the total of R and parts and labor, etc. What it came down to is what was available to ship right now, the "supply chain" jamb-up has hit the broadcast industry pretty hard. So it goes with full featured EV's and I assume even ICE vehicles, as the model for turning on features through software is more than likely to catch on hard with the rest of the industry. My understanding is the this is already the norm in some Class 8 truck engines. At the end of the day, Teslas are just cars. And cars aren't going to save the world, even if they are EVs. ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Goodbye old friend.
After something like 7 or 9 price rises in the last year, Teslas are massively overpriced. Tesla now makes the highest profit margin of any US automaker. Interesting way to "change the world," eh? My understanding is that they make the highest number of EV's of all the manufactures (in the US and Europe anywaysbut I believe they may also be giving Chinese manufacturers a run for their money...). So if the demand is there...why fault them for profiting from their groundbreaking work? (I drive a Leaf...because it was a lot cheaper) Jay ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
