Re: [EVDL] Are you NACS-charging a non-Tesla

[Lee Hart via EV]

Rush wrote:
> The J1772 Spec from the 2017 SAE Standard states -
>
> Table 9 - AC charging electrical ratings (North America)
> AC Level 2 208 to 240 V AC, 1-phase ≤ 80 A Per NEC 625
>
> So your 245VAC may not be safe for some EV's

Rush, isn't this the nominal voltage? Voltage ratings usually include a 
tolerance (like +/-10%) around the nominal voltage (so a "240v" outlet can 
actually vary from 216-264v).

Variations in the real world can be even more. Well-designed equipment normally 
allows for such variations.

Lee
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla idle power draw

[Lee Hart via EV]

Both vehicles will turn off the headlights (or radio or dome light etc.) if 
left on for more than ~15 minutes.

But... both had 12v accessory outlets that remained *on* when the car was off. 
Leaving a cellphone charger or other gadget plugged into them *would* run the 
battery down. Or, just leaving it parked for 2-3 weeks.

And if the battery ran down below 9-10v, the "immobilizer" alarm would disable 
the vehicle completely. Charging the 12v battery didn't work, and it could not 
be jump started. Turning the key to the "start" position would crank and start 
the engine, but as soon as you release the key to "run", the engine stopped, 
and an alarm message was displayed. The only option was to have it towed to the 
dealer. No kidding!

Lee
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla idle power draw

[Lee Hart via EV]

Phil wrote:
> If you are going to routinely leave any car, EV or not, parked without
> attention for more than 2 weeks routinely, I advise a 12v battery switch
> be installed on the negative lead.

That's good advice, with one caveat. Some cars have standard-equipment 
anti-theft systems that must be powered, or the car may need to be towed to the 
dealer! Our 2001 VW Eurovan had this, and now my 2010 Chevy Colorado has it. If 
you disconnect the 12v battery, the anti-theft system forgets its code, and 
only the dealer could reset it. And (at least for my local dealers), they 
required the car to be towed to their shop to do it!

I got around this by adding a small PV panel to keep the 12v battery charged 
during long idle periods. (Both of these vehicles were ICEs, so I rarely drove 
them).

Lee
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Re: [EVDL] Used EVs

[Lee Hart via EV]

It's also worth looking for off-lease EVs being sold by the big car rental 
companies. A guy in Minneapolis/St. Paul just purchased a 2022 Polestar for 
$10,000.
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Re: [EVDL] Fwd: Pre-charge for charger?

[Lee Hart via EV]

Precharging isn't as simple as it first appears. Here are a few things off the 
top of my head:

Precharge circuits *must* used DC-rated parts with an appropriate voltage 
rating. An AC-rated switch, relay, or fuse will fail *on*! If the switch or 
relay fails "on", the precharge resistor can overheat, or simply run down the 
pack.

Your precharge circuit should include some way to sense the pack voltage, and 
abort if it fails to precharge in a reasonable time. Some load on the pack 
(like a DC/DC converter) can prevent it from precharging.

A simple precharge resistor works, but will get extremely hot and fail (or even 
start a fire) if some fault condition leaves it on for too long. If you use a 
resistor, it should be a flameproof type that is guaranteed to fail "open" in 
case of a fault.

It's hard to specify the wattage for a precharge resistor. It depends heavily 
on how much current and how long it will be connected. Resistors have peak 
current specifications that can be hard to find. The usual approach is to use a 
much higher wattage wire-wound resistor than you might expect, just in case 
something goes wrong.

You can use a tungsten light bulb as your precharge resistor. Their "cold" 
resistance is very low (about 1/10th) of their "hot" resistance), so you get a 
high peak precharge current. Then the bulb lights, and you get a much lower 
"holding" current that can stay on without damaging it. Obviously, use enough 
light bulbs in series to handle your pack voltage (one for 120v or less, two 
for 240v, etc.)

There are also special PTC (positive temperature coefficient) resistors, whose 
cold resistance is low, but go to a much higher resistance when hot.

If I recall correctly, the Manzanita chargers have little or no output 
capacitance. They depend on the battery as their output "capacitor". You must 
be sure the battery is connected to the output before AC power is applied. 
Otherwise, the output will go overvoltage and fail (bang)! Check with Rich 
Rudman at Manzanita Micro for details and advice on this.

Lee Hart

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Re: [EVDL] Charging Port Locations

[Lee Hart via EV]

> Although the Bolt says no towing, guess I’m always voiding warranties.

That's the spirit, Mark! :-)

Loose the screws, cut the cable.
Take it apart as best you're able.
Void the warranty, hack the code.
Reuse, rewire, rebuild, reload!

Lee Hart


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Re: [EVDL] EV efficiency argument.

[Lee Hart via EV]

> Stupid arguments on both sides...

Indeed, both sides danced around the key points.

ICEs get *all* of their fuel from fossil fuels. EVs only get about 60% of their 
fuel from fossil fuels (current percentage in the US).

Electric generating plants are about twice as efficient as ICE engines. Even if 
you assume that 100% of EV charging energy came from fossil fuels, the same 
amount of energy produces half the CO2 and pollution.

Electric transmission line losses are minimal -- only about 5%.

EVs are far more efficient in using their fuel energy. That's why the MPGe (MPG 
equivalent) for EVs is 3-4 times better than ICEs.

So EVs use less energy, to go farther, and produce less pollution.

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-Original Message-
From: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Sent: Jul 26, 2024 9:23 AM
To: Electric List 
Cc: Lawrence Winiarski 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV efficiency argument.

Since most of the time the car knows what time it is, why not have a software 
option to prioritize the onboard chargers to charge during daylight hours to 
use a greater percentage of solar?When you have a lot of unused range 
anyway, you don't need to keep topping off the car during the night..you can 
just delay until the sun comes up.   

Seems a relatively simple software change that could have pretty big power 
considerations.

On Friday, July 26, 2024, 5:56:43 AM PDT, paul dove via EV wrote:

I doubt we have any congressman that understand physics.
On Friday, July 26, 2024 at 07:01:17 AM CDT, Mark Hanson via EV wrote: 



EV efficiency loop argument from pro EV Buttigieg.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/jML8xzgD3jw

Best regards Mark
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Re: [EVDL] DC motor isolation issues

[Lee Hart via EV]

> So, about the only way to really clean the motors would be
> to submerge them, and run them at low speed while submerged.

I don't think it's that bad, John. In all my years using brushed motors, all I 
have had to do is blow out the dust every few years with compressed air, and 
everything was fine.

However, if enough dust accumulated for the motor to "flash over" from high 
voltage, it could have created a carbonized path. In that case, you'd have to 
pull the motor, take it apart to survey the damage, and repair or replace the 
brusholder accordingly.

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Re: [EVDL] AC Power export for Teslas

[Lee Hart via EV]

That warranty statement sound like a case of runaway lawyer syndrome. They put 
in language that isn't justifiable, necessary , or even reasonable just to 
provide a way to disallow warranty coverage if you do something they don't like.

The way it's worded, even leaving your cellphone on charge while the car is 
parked would be a violation of the warranty.

Aren't there legal protections against unreasonable terms in a warranty?

Lee
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Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf modules installation VIVAN Chinese company

[Lee Hart via EV]

Mark Hanson wrote:
> A friend who can’t get the stealership to install a battery replacement 
> 2016 Leaf
> under warranty (expires in August) wants to order this $12k VIVAN company
> battery and DIY...

Aren't there also ways to find used "salvage" packs from wrecked Leafs? As I 
recall, Cor van de Water found a higher-capacity one from a newer Leaf, and 
installed it in an older Leaf.

Lee
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[EVDL] Polestar 2 EV

[Lee Hart via EV]

I got to see my first Polestar 2 EV today. The owner lives in Minneapolis, but 
was visiting friends here in Sartell MN (about 75 miles away).

He loves it! The controls seem a lot more "normal" than Tesla's. The car is 
sold and serviced by Volvo. Apparently some rental agencies are dumping used 
ones at low prices (same as Teslas). It seems like a very nice EV, with over 
double the range of my Leaf. Does anyone have any experience or comments with 
Polestars?

Lee
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Troglodyte Toyta

[Lee Hart via EV]

David Heacock wrote:
> Cool. I always thought the idea was to reduce or eliminate the "pollutants" 
> coming out the tail pipe? Is there now only one acceptable way to do that?

I quite agree. Our civilization seems addicted to the "monoculture" plan; giant 
corporations making the same things for everyone on the planet. But 
monocultures tend to become monopolies that force out any alternatives, and use 
up vital resources. That doesn't work out so well when carried to extremes, 
does it?

While I think that EVs will ultimately be the best transportation solution, 
they shouldn't be the *only* solution. Petroleum is still a widely available 
and extremely energy-dense fuel, and a tremendous amount of time and technology 
has been invested in its use. The billions of existing ICEs are going to be 
with us for a very long time, and they will need fuel. So I applaud efforts to 
produce cleaner hydrocarbon fuels, and find ways to minimize the environmental 
impact from their use.

There will always be companies that want to keep making the same old thing when 
something new comes along. There were still buggy whip makers after horseless 
carriages came out, and slide rules after pocket calculators were invented. 
Toyota's move to stick with ICEs may be a reasonable in the short-term, and at 
least they are trying to clean them up. Who knows... maybe someone will invent 
a way to make "green" gasoline out of atmospheric CO2, water, and sunlight!

> I remember not so long ago a podcast from Europe where the big EV fan guy was 
> saying Aptera's petition to have a standardized plug like the Tesla plug, was 
> a stupid idea. Hum, how did that work out?

A standardized plug is not only a good idea; it is inevitable. Can you imagine 
a world where different gas pumps were needed for Fords, Chevys, Toyotas, etc? 
It would be unworkable, and would quickly lead to demands for standardization. 
EV charging is the same; there *has* to be a standard charging connector if EVs 
are ever to succeed in the long run. (And it can't be one that someone owns 
monopoly rights to produce.)

Lee

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Re: [EVDL] Pros and cons

[Lee Hart via EV]

My understanding is that substantial legal barriers have been erected by the US 
automakers to discourage foreign competition. Cars have to meet US safety and 
emission standards, have US-approved lights, glass, brakes, tires, seatbelts, 
and other items. It doesn't matter if the car has already met EU standards 
(which are in some cases even tougher than US standards). Everything has to be 
replaced and tested again. That's an expensive proposition. A foreign 
manufacturer has to be certain of selling a substantial number of cars at a 
high enough profit margin to recoup the conversion costs.

The US also adds various tariffs and customs fees to imports. For example there 
is a 25% "chicken tax" on importing light trucks into the US.

This is why many foreign automakers have built plants in the US to get around 
all this.

Ironically, all the US automakers sell vehicles that are in part or entirely 
foreign made. They evade the various import fees with a variety of loopholes.

Thus, the only way Citroen can sell cars in the US is by building a plant in 
the US (like Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Mercedes, etc.), or by selling their cars 
to a US automaker who will re-brand it (such as the Suzuki Swift being sold by 
GM as a Geo Metro).

Lee
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Re: [EVDL] Experiences with Cells from newpriusbatteries.com?

[Lee Hart via EV]

Phil wrote:
> The older Prius hybrid powertrain makes
a poor EV, as you can only achieve a top speed of about 50mph/80kph before
the efficiency is super poor, and you are limited to about 20kW of EV power
by the boost-converter architecture. I'm really surprised anyone would be
interested in it today.

Actually, I *am* interested, because I have a low-mileage gen-1 2001 Prius that 
needs batteries. I like the car, and it has a 10-15 mile range as a pure EV, 
and 50-60 mpg as an ICE.

Replacements for the original nimh modules are unobtainium. Modules for the 
later gen-2 Prius almost fit; but are longer and need serious modifications to 
the cover to avoid shorting.

A couple decades ago, I experimented with adding a booster pack with 12v 13ah 
lead-acid batteries. It worked, but added too much weight and I wasn't clever 
enough to fool Toyota's computers.

Lee
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Re: [EVDL] Contactor recomendations?

[Lee Hart via EV]

John, these are all good suggestions for what might be causing the failures 
(coil snubber, operating contacts under load, etc.) But have you done any 
post-mortem on the failed contactors to see how they actually failed?

Perhaps I missed it; but was it the coil or the contacts that failed? Are the 
contacts welded closed, or burned open? You may have to cut it open to see.

Lee
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Re: [EVDL] Fwd: NACS to CCS Adapter - Vortex Plug - 500A, 1000V — Lectron EV

[Lee Hart via EV]

The paranoid engineer in my wonders... will any of this super-complex 
over-techie stuff still work in 10 years? Will there be any chance that it will 
be repairable?
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Re: [EVDL] 46 Pure EVs for sale, Teslas competition.

[Lee Hart via EV]

Rush via EV wrote:
>> I think that anybody having any knowledge of how a business is conducted
>> would say that 'yes, profit is a good thing'.

David Roden wrote:
> Let's restore the context:
>
> As I understood it, and someone correct me if this is wrong, the original
> Tesla "master plan" was to get to mass market EVs. They'd start with
> building luxury EVs for rich people, and use the presumably *hefty* profits
> from that venture to design and build EVs for the rest of us.

To paraphrase the old saying, "Wealth corrupts. Absolute wealth corrupts 
absolutely."

It's one thing to have noble goals, and use money to achieve them. It's quite 
another to let money become your *only* goal. Sadly, the American "Wall Street" 
mentality tends to put money ahead of every other goal. As soon as you become a 
for-profit corporation, the stockholders will demand that you maximize profits, 
no matter what.

Henry Ford wanted to put America on wheels, so he priced his cars so he could 
do it. But once he started to make insane amounts of money, he abandoned that 
goal, and money became an end in itself. He became rather insane in his quest 
for wealth and power.

I think the same thing is happening to Elon Musk. He has all sorts of noble 
goals, and is using his wealth to achieve them. But he is also the head of one 
of the richest corporations in the world, and so faces incredible pressure to 
maximize profits, no matter who it hurts.
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Re: [EVDL] [External] Re: EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[Lee Hart via EV]

Hi Ed. Thank you for your kind comments!

I'll admit my post was a bit tongue in cheek; but my basic point remains. 
People tend to be lazy, and take the easy way out.
If you provide them with that easy way too soon, they are disinclined learn the 
basic principles of the subject at hand. They won't learn the principles of 
math, or how to write clearly, or drive safely.

I worry if you put young inexperienced drivers in a FSD car, they won't learn 
how to drive properly. They may be unfit to take control when something *does* 
go wrong (as it inevitably will). 

Maybe someday all cars will be self-driving, so nobody needs to ever drive 
themselves. But that day is a long way off.

Lee
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hitting the brakes on EVs

[Lee Hart via EV]

> Twenty-five US state attorneys general are suing the US EPA
> over requiring CO2 reductions. One claims that the EPA rules
> will "sacrifice the American auto industry."

Sounds like 2000, when the federal government overturned California's Zero 
Emission mandate. That's when all the automakers abruptly pulled out of the EV 
market, canceling leases and crushing their EVs.
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Re: [EVDL] [External] Re: EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[Lee Hart via EV]

> Maybe the FSD starts taking more risks too...because the Tesla
> Overlords decide they like it that way and they want to test their
> new more edgy aggressive modes.   Maybe tailgating, or speeding,
> or passingall because FSD is just so much "better" than humans.

Aha! Let's start testing FSD in race cars! It can drive as aggressively as it 
wants, on a closed track with no risk to civilians. Americans love dem races 
(and crashes).

Lee
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Re: [EVDL] [External] Re: EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[Lee Hart via EV]

Guilty... I'm one of those "slow" drivers that generally drives at (or below) 
the speed limit. I often follow trucks at night or in bad weather, so I'm not 
the one that hits the deer or something else in the road that I can't see.

FSD is technically impressive; but I wonder about the unintended consequences.

- When people started using calculators, they could no longer do math in their 
heads.
- When they started depending on spell checkers, they stopped learning how to 
spell.
- When they depend on their cellphone for everything, they can't remember phone 
numbers or addresses.
- Features like antilock brakes and traction control already mean that most 
people can't drive in poor traction conditions without  it.

So, will all the features of FSD wind up "un-teaching" people how to drive? 
I.e. as the cars gets better, will the drivers get *worse*?

Lee
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[Lee Hart via EV]

> I am with you John but at some point they take away your license.
> What then? Friend, relatives, taxi, bus? A self driving car could
> allow independence longer.

Ah, but will someone without a driver's license be *allowed* to drive a fully 
self driving car?

Lee
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla cuts 3 major departments

[Lee Hart via EV]

Science fiction writer Ron Goulart loves to put examples of rogue technology in 
his stories, usually in humorous circumstances. One relevant example is where a 
guy comes out of the bar, and finds his car won't let him in.

Man: "Unlock the door, Ai."
Car: "Drinking again, I see."
Man: "What? Open the door, dammit!"
Car: "Ain't gonna happen, pal. Your wife said not to let you in if you've been 
drinking."
Man: " Open up, or I'll break a window to get in!"
Car: "Now, now. I'd just call the cops and have you arrested for breaking and 
entering. Tell you what. There's an all-night diner just a couple miles down 
the road. You walk there and get a cup off coffee to sober up. I'll meet you 
there. Bye, bye!"
And the car drives off by itself.

As usual, SF writers are way ahead of their time.

Too much technology, rushed to market too quickly, with too little testing is 
likely to run into the law of unintended consequences.

Lee
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Re: [EVDL] Import EV [Adding a FM radio to a Tesla.]

[Lee Hart via EV]

Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> If anyone figures out how to import an EV, please let me know.

There may be other loopholes as well.

I bought my ComutaVan as scrap from a junkyard. I got it inspected and 
re-titled it as an "assembled electric vehicle". It was fully roadworthy; not 
an NEV. The only issue the inspector had was the regulation that it "must have 
an exhaust system". I satisfied him by bolting a (useless) tailpipe onto it.

Another way is to import it as scrap or parts, and assemble it yourself. 
Several companies have done this. Zap, Wemo, and Zenn seem to have gone this 
route. There is a company near me in Minnesota that brought in some 
disassembled Russian cars, re-assembled, and sold them. Another is currently 
bringing in Chinese EVs the same way (though I think they are selling them as 
NEVs).Then some are simply driven in from Mexico or Canada, and then 
re-registered in the US (perhaps by careless DMV clerks.There may also be a 
loophole if you are moving into the US and want to bring your car. Didn't 
Mercedes have a program where they let you buy one in Europe and bring it with 
you back to the US?
Lee
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Re: [EVDL] '91 BMW 318i conversion to electric

[Lee Hart via EV]

Hi Bill. Welcome to the EV Discussion List!

Converting a car can be as big or as small a project as you like. I've been 
driving and converting EVs since the 1970's, and been on the EVDL a long time. 
I've seen everything from $1000 conversions with cheap surplus parts, to $100k 
conversions that rival factory fit and finish and have race car performance.

Since your BMW is a '91 and this is your first conversion, I would suggest 
keeping it simple. Look for the book "Build your own electric vehicle" by Bob 
Brant. It does a great job explaining the ins and outs of 1990's conversions.

There are 2nd and 3rd editions of this book by a different author, Seth 
Leitman. He added a lot of new material to bring the theory and parts 
availability into the current century. However, it is weaker on the actual 
techniques for using these newer parts and materials.

"Convert It!" by Mike Brown and Shari Prange is another great book on classic 
car conversions. It too has been edited and expanded into the current century 
by another author, Ron Toms.

Finding someone local to help that has done it before is important! Books, 
emails, and videos can only go so far. They can save you from a lot of mistakes 
and expense.

Happy hacking!
Lee Hart
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Re: [EVDL] Adding a FM radio to a Tesla.

[Lee Hart via EV]

And to point out what a geezer I am, my cars have (gasp) CD or cassette tape 
players. On long lonely drives in the midwest, I listen to audio books or old 
classics on them.
--
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Re: [EVDL] Adding a FM radio to a Tesla.

[Lee Hart via EV]

Agreed. I only have a cheap pay-as-you-go phone ($99 a year). I only use it for 
calls or texts. If I used it like most people, I'd be paying $99 a month for 
all that "free" data.

The AM and FM radio in my Leaf works just fine, and is free to use.

Lee
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Re: [EVDL] Adding a FM radio to a Tesla.

[Lee Hart via EV]

> In the era of streaming any am or fm radio station, radio reception ability 
> is almost mute.
> A simple portable radio hooked to a Bluetooth transmitter is all you need, if 
> you can't stream.

Maybe for some people. But I happen to like listening to an actual radio, 
without having to subscribe to some streaming service.

Most cheap portable radios also have worse sensitivity, selectivity, and 
fidelity than the radios normally put in cars.

Lee
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Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)

[Lee Hart via EV]

Cor van de Water wrote:
> my garage has a GFCI circuit. As a consequence, I cannot use
> my garage to do any development work, because as soon as
> I plug in one of my HP power supplies, even before I turn it on,
> the heavy capacitive filtering on the AC line will trip the GFCI
> because it indeed creates a current to ground.

The easy answer is a big isolation transformer. I have some big 1KW ones that I 
use. (If anyone needs one, I have many, holding down the basement floor).

> If I am not mistaken, the NEC has a class of GFCI (and I used to have
> a breaker) that trips at 50mA, I believe there is even a 500mA limit.

The original idea for a GFCI was safety; to keep people from being electrocuted 
(i.e. junior sticks a fork in the toaster with one hand to get his bread out, 
while the other hand is resting on the grounded sink. The 5mA limit was chosen 
as the maximum current that a normal healthy person would survive, since they 
can let go and jump away from the source of the shock. In medical settings, an 
even lower limit of 0.5mA was required, on the basis that hospital patients may 
well not be able to remove themselves from the source of the shock.

But these limits proved to be hard to design for. So manufacturers have lobbied 
for higher limits of 50mA. That's more than enough to kill a person. Yet the 
last I knew, our EVs are being designed to allow up to 50mA of ground leakage 
before their GFCI trips.

500mA for a GFCI limit? Gah! That would not only kill someone, but *cook* them 
as well!
--
Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com

If I am not mistaken, the NEC has a class of GFCI (and I used to have
a breaker) that trips at 50mA, I believe there is even a 500mA limit.
This is only used in industrial settings where a lower limit will
indeed trip guaranteed.

On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 10:50 AM (-Phil-) via EV wrote:
>
> Keep in mind that excepting North America, only (part of) Japan uses a
> lower voltage. In the US (residential) system, no conductor is ever over
> about 160v peak-to-peak with respect to ground, whereas in NZ/EU you are
> getting over 300v P-P, which is arguably 4 times more lethal. I'd
> definitely want everything protected by GFCI/RCD if I had those voltages
> everywhere.
>
> On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 10:25 AM EV List Lackey via EV
> wrote:
>
> > On 10 Mar 2024 at 23:41, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:
> >
> > > Based on what I know, [the US NEC is] one of the most rigorous codes in
> > > the world.
> >
> > Agreed. I've seen some ... interesting ... wiring practices elsewhere,
> > including Spain, Italy, France, Canary Islands, Puerto Rico, and South
> > Korea.
> >
> > Some of them look like old USA practices. Example: junction boxes aren't
> > usually used for surface mounted luminaires in France. The cable or smurf
> > tubing emerges from the ceiling or wall.
> >
> > I've seen single conductors run through ceramic cleats on the ceiling
> > surface in South Korea, similar to early 20th century US wiring. It
> > appeared
> > to be a recent installation.
> >
> > Service capacities are also lower. A typical western EU service will be
> > 6kW
> > or 12kW, a size the US hasn't seen in probably 70 years. Spain has a lot
> > of
> > 3kW services. I'm sure that that's a problem for EV home charging there.
> >
> > On the other hand, as Bill says about NZ, in most (all?) western EU
> > nations,
> > the whole house is GFI (RCD) protected at 30ma leakage current.
> >
> > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> >
> > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my
> > offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
> > Interpreter: One who enables two persons of different languages
> > to understand each other by repeating to each what it would have
> > been to the interpreter's advantage for the other to have said.
> >
> > -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
> > ___
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> >
> >
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Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)

[Lee Hart via EV]

Phil wrote:
> no conductor is ever over about 160v peak-to-peak with respect to ground

I agree, but with one little nit to pick. My AC line voltage is normally 
120vac, and varies from about 115v to 124v depending on the current grid 
loading. The peak of 124vac is actually 170v; a situation that occurs here 
pretty often.

In fact, I had to add a 6v buck transformer between my PV inverter and grid (so 
it sees 114v when the grid is 120v). The inverter trips off if the grid hits 
126vac, which happened often enough to need the buck transformer.

You are exactly right on US NEC codes. They are written for fire and insurance 
purposes, not electrical safety. Enforcement is also more bureaucratic than 
technically accurate.
--
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--
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: No Apple EV

[Lee Hart via EV]

> The Briefing
> By Martin Peers
> 
> Maybe Apple should cancel multibillion-dollar projects more often! Shares of 
> the iPhone maker, which have fallen since the start of the year, rose nearly 
> 1% Tuesday after Bloomberg scooped the news that Apple had canned Project 
> Titan, its decade-old autonomous car project...

This is a typical Wall Street "money is all that matters" type of response.

Titan was an R&D project. You do R&D to learn, not to make money. It 
*may* lead to something in the future; but most R&D projects don't.

R&D money isn't somehow lost or burned. It keeps your best and brightest 
people active, thinking, and creating. It supports your suppliers, and 
encourages them to innovate as well. And, all this "lost money" may well come 
up with something that *is* practical and makes money!

We only have EVs today as a direct result of R&D. People were willing to 
"waste" time and money developing them anyway, just to learn and develop the 
technology.

Lee

--
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--
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Re: [EVDL] Was Tesla Designed in California? :-/ - Fixed Cold Weather Frunk Hood Latch Stuck

[Lee Hart via EV]

On cold-testing cars...

I grew up in Michigan, at a time when the US auto industry was king. Friends of 
mine worked for various automakers. They each had huge environmental test 
chambers that could be adjusted for anything from -40 deg.F deep freezes to 140 
deg.F deserts, howling winds, blizzards, driving rain, and altitudes from Death 
Valley to Pike's Peak. That way, they could find out how their cars would fare 
with weather in the real world.

This headed off many problems, at least when the cars were new. But as you 
might expect, there were cases where the environmental chambers were 
over-booked, or someone changed a part without re-testing, or testing one car 
didn't reveal that 50% of that model would have problems.

A friend related one incident where there was a blizzard and -40 deg.F 
temperatures forecast for Houghton MI. GM had engineers drive a few cars up 
there for testing. They stayed at a motel, and the next morning, none of the 
cars would start. Not from a battery problem; but because the emission control 
computers were dead. My friend opened up the emission control computer, placed 
his hand on the chips to warm them up, and the car started. It turned out that 
a one hour at -40 deg.F wasn't long enough to cool everything down; but 
overnight was.

Big companies only tend to learn from their own mistakes (not others). The 
traditional automakers have learned their lessons over a very long time. The 
engineers would complain about stupid tests that only held things up, but that 
were mandated to prevent past mistakes.

Tesla is a young company. Perhaps they don't yet see the reasons to do much 
environmental testing. So it's going to take them time to make their own 
mistakes, and learn from them.

Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com
 
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla preconditioning, regen disabled and charging in cold weather

[Lee Hart via EV]

--
Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com
-Original Message-
(-Phil-) wrote:
> No, if the battery is at 60F it's simply not going to be able to run the 
> reactions needed to charge. The minimum temp for full speed supercharging is 
> around 125F.

Wow; that's amazingly hot. I had no idea Tesla's batteries had to run that hot 
to charge.

Do these temperature limits only apply to supercharging? I.e. can you charge at 
lower rates at lower temperatures?

Is this a characteristic of Tesla's batteries? Or of LiFePO4 in general?


My 2013 Leaf is sitting outside in 0 deg.F temperatures, and will charge and do 
regen. It has a battery heater, but it doesn't turn on until it gets below 
about -10 deg.F.

Lee
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Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas cars | Reuters

[Lee Hart via EV]

Anyone who has driven a Ford model T can certainly attest to the challenges of 
having all the controls in the "wrong" locations. (OK, the steering wheel is 
the same as modern cars; but nothing else).

The early EVs also had considerably different controls. How about tiller 
steering? :-)

The tiller also had a hand grip that you rotated forward to accelerate, and 
backward for braking. Backward would give you *plenty* of electric braking 
force!

Lee
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Re: [EVDL] Battery Testers

[Lee Hart via EV]

Hi Peter,

Do you know what kind of batteries are in these Ryobi packs? I have old ones 
that are Nicad, and newer ones that are Lithium. It makes a big difference in 
how to approach rejuvenating them!

Nicad: If the pack is below a certain voltage, the charger won't even try to 
charge it. Try to charge it with a bench supply as Cor suggested. If the 
voltage comes up enough to make the Ryobi charger happy, great! Nicads aren't 
usually hurt by sitting around until a cell is dead.

If that doesn't work, my nicad packs had screws, so I could open them up and 
look for bad cells. Nicads have a tendency to fail shorted if the voltage 
across them is reversed. In a series string, the "good" cells can force current 
through the "dead" cells and damage them. This happens if you keep using the 
drill etc. even after one or more cells is dead (i.e. when the tool slows down 
noticeably.

Sometimes you can temporarily "fix" a shorted cell by applying a *momentary* 
pulse of high current (an amp or so). If the pulse causes the voltage across 
that cell to rise, then you can continue recharging it normally (at a current 
of 1/10th of its amphour capacity for 8-10 hours).

If the dead cell's voltage does *not* come up after a few such pulses, the cell 
is shorted and must be replaced. Even if such a cell does recover, it often has 
reduced capacity and an excessively high self-discharge rate; so it's usually 
best to replace it anyway for best reliability.

Lithium: If a lithium pack has too low a voltage to charge, try Cor's technique 
with a bench supply. My Ryobi lithium packs are sealed, so I haven't been able 
to get inside (without ruining them) to see what kind of cells are inside, or 
whether they can be repaired or replaced.

Be very careful when experimenting with lithium cells! They can start fires 
which are very hard to put out!

Lee
--
Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com
-Original Message-
From: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Sent: Dec 10, 2023 6:05 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: Peter Eckhoff 
Subject: [EVDL] Battery Testers

I have a few Ryobi power packs that won't charge. This got me to
thinking I would like to get into trouble shooting and battery
testing. I've found a few sites on Youtube that discuss trouble
shooting and battery testing. A number of sites use a Atorch DL24 [P]
such as this channel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQQJHwC4hOY&t=20s

Are there any battery testers that you have used and could recommend?
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Slipping

[Lee Hart via EV]

I keep thinking (and fearing) that the auto industry will start using the 
"cheap printer and expensive ink" model. In the early 1900's, Henry Ford 
observed, "If I owned the gas stations, I'd *give* the cars away."

So what happens if an auto company begins offering cheap or free cars, but only 
as long as you rent their batteries, and charge at their charging stations?

--
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Re: [EVDL] OFF TOPIC Re: EV's not a green success.

[Lee Hart via EV]

 Gail Donaldson Lucas wrote:
> David, I am laughing remembering the generator on the wheel
> and the windmill on hood. There was a plan for running on water
> too, wish I had saved all that valuable info.
Ya hey sure ya betcha!

Why, I remember a guy that put a generator on the wheel of his EV, and drove it 
all the way from Concocha to Paramonga in Peru (117 km or 72 miles), and 
arrived with *more* charge in his EV than when he left. ('Course, it was all 
downhill...)

And there's this guy that built the Blackbird that is like, totally 
wind-powered. It can go *faster* than the wind is blowing, ya! (OK, so it's 
more like a sailboat on wheels; but it works...)

Don't forget them solar raycers. They can go 60 mph powered by nothing but pure 
sunlight. (Course, they's more like bicycles than cars.)

Then NASA has been using nickel-hydrogen batteries to power their spacecraft 
since the 1970's. When charged, they make hydrogen and oxygen. When discharged, 
they use the hydrogen and oxygen to make electricity.

--If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called "research", would it? -- 
Albert Einstein
--
Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com


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Re: [EVDL] Ram truck hybrid

[Lee Hart via EV]

Peri Hartman wrote:
> With electric vehicle sales growth slowing, Stellantis Ram brand has an 
> answer:
> An onboard charger [meaning a hybrid system].
> 
> As a purist, as I suspect many EVDL members are, I view this as a setback.
> However, in general it's probably a good thing because it will mean more
> truck-miles driven by battery than we would have with strictly pure EV trucks.

I agree, on both counts. A recent study noted that pickup trucks are the #1 
selling vehicles in almost every state in the US. Most pickup truck drivers 
dislike the poor gas mileage; but are staunchly anti-EV. Making it a hybrid 
means Stellantis can market it as an ICE that gets better gas mileage. That 
will strongly appeal to the motor-heads.

Who knows? They might discover that the EV mode actually works *better* than 
the ICE. :-)
--
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--
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Re: [EVDL] EV's not a green success.

[Lee Hart via EV]

Michael Ross wrote:
> All the comments on this thread have failed to actually understand
> what he is talking about, or even watch it, seemingly.

I watched it, and think I do understand his point. Our high-tech society is 
using up huge amounts of resources for quick and easy short-term gains. It will 
be very difficult to keep this up in the future.

But this is the EV Discussion list. The focus here is naturally on EVs; not the 
global supply situation in its entirety. Our little part of the problem is to 
do what we can about the future of transportation.

I also think he focuses too much on "if this goes on..." As an engineer, I know 
that there alternatives for just about *every* material and resource. If you 
can't get copper, use aluminum. If you can't get aluminum, the periodic table 
is full of other metals. They may not be perfect; but they'll work. Even steel 
gets used as a replacement for copper. Just about every resistor, capacitor, 
and integrated circuit uses steel for its lead wires (go ahead and check; you 
can pick them up with a magnet). And the auto companies think nothing of using 
a vehicle's steel body as the ground return conductor.

I am sure there will be material shortages in the future. But I am also 
confident that we will find ways to deal with it. More recycling. Find ways to 
use less to do the job. Use other materials.

Lee
--
Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com

He says if you add up all the copper in the world, how it has to get used,
where more comes from, the time it takes to ramp production, accounting for
recycling, and so on, we are in trouble. Likewise, paladiums, tin, aluminum
(take enormous amounts of electricity), magnet materials, and so on, we
come up way short.

None of you out here make it your business to ferret out all the details.
This is Zeihan's business and he has research staff behind him. I recommend
his most recent book which has a very interesting chapter on industrial
materials. It is short and not fleshed out fully, but I follow his logic,
and don't believe he has anything pushing him to make stuff up. He likes
the outdoors and wants a clean environment. But, he seems certain that
making any headway won't come from electrification except after many
decades, potentially a century. If he is anywhere near correct, then we
need to reconfigure our efforts. Now.



On Sun, Nov 5, 2023, 2:19 PM Thos True via EV wrote:

> I find it difficult to believe that we are once again being drawn into the
> argument that the grid cannot support the demand for EV's.
> Society has been in this situation several times since the early 1900's.
> With each new electrical product's popularity (televisions, refrigerators,
> air conditioners, hot tubs, washers and dryers, motorhomes, Mcmansions,
> housing developments, fast food restaurants, factories, etc), the same
> fearful cry was heard. Development of "the grid" has been ahead of demand
> in the majority of markets, as they are a business that wants to sell as
> much of their products as possible. Even when the demand levels off,
> utilities are continuously upgrading the equipment with more efficient
> devices to maximize output utilizing the same foot print ( fenced in
> facilities, usually).
> Most vehicles use around the same amount of electricity per charge as
> running a dryer for a couple of cycles (how many people think twice about
> doing that?).
> Just my 2 watts worth,
> Tom True
>
> On Sat, Nov 4, 2023, 5:32 PM EV@TucsonEV via EV wrote:
>
> > Well, once again, it looks like the thread has strayed from EV's into
> > politics...
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Rush Dougherty
> > TucsonEV
> > 1014 E King St
> > Tucson AZ 85719
> > 520 240 7493
> > www.TucsonEV.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > EV List Lackey wrote -
> > > "To understand the Republican party, or the Democratic party, for that
> > matter,
> > it is
> > > most efficient to look directly at the clients -- or as political
> > scientist
> > Thomas
> > > Ferguson would call them, the 'major investors.'
> > > On that level, the ideological contradictions are unimportant.
> Political
> > parties do
> > > function as mediating institutions, just not for voters."
> > >
> > > -- William Greider, "Who Will Tell the People"
> >
> > Well, once again, it looks like the thread has strayed from EV's into
> > politics...
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Rush Dougherty
> > TucsonEV
> > www.TucsonEV.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> >
> >
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Re: [EVDL] California solicits applications for $40 million in NEVI EV charging grants

[Lee Hart via EV]

Paul Dove wrote:
> We’ve had battery powered lawn equipment for over 10 years now
> and they still sell gasoline versions. We will never go 100% EV.

No; it will never be 100%. But it could easily reach 50% or even more within 
our lifetimes. Longer term, it may well get very close to 100% EV.

100 years ago, ICEs started replacing horses. A century later, there are 
*still* a small percentage of people using horses. But the vast majority of 
people use ICEs.

Le
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Re: [EVDL] EV's not a green success.

[Lee Hart via EV]

> Gloom and doom... wow. Innovation breeds innovation!
> Of course based on what we see today things are impossible.
> But with each step forward the creative juices flow.

So true! Part of the problem is that our "leaders" are actually followers. They 
follow the polls, they follow the money, they follow what worked in the past. 
Alas, too many people play "follow the leader" even when their "leaders" have 
proven to be clueless.

But change will come; it always does. The innovations needed to deal with the 
changes will have to come from someone *other* than our erstwhile leaders. The 
type of people who are on this list :-)

--
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Re: [EVDL] EV charger placement [bp orders $100 million worth of Tesla EV chargers]

[Lee Hart via EV]

Peri Hartman wrote:
> I'll give my opinion on where EV charges should be located... Chargers need
> to be located where people can usefully spend some time. That may be at the
> grocery, a shopping center, a park, highway rest areas, a walkable
> neighborhood, a tourist destination, for example.

Ah, but it doesn't matter where *we* want them located. What matters is where 
*they* want them located. How are gas stations going to continue to make money 
if we start charging and shopping somewhere other than their Food-n-Gas shops?

--
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Re: [EVDL] 'Facts' about EV's debunked

[Lee Hart via EV]

Ron  wrote:
>> I am afraid that "not in my lifetime" is one of the reasons we are in this
>> mess in the first place...

> That is the main reason I switched from trying to convince people to pay
> attention to the problems we're creating to trying to just get people to think
> beyond themselves and beyond what they can imagine for their immediate
> future. We can't fix or prevent any major problem as long as we're a bunch
> of selfish assholes.

Blunt, but true!

It's been said that man is one of the few creatures that can think; and the 
only one that avoids it whenever possible. Instead, people prefer to let others 
think for them, or rely on "we've always done it this way". You can't use 
reason to talk such a person out of a position that wasn't reasonable in the 
first place. This attitude is a disaster waiting to happen.

I have this nightmare... I'm riding in a bus on a foggy night, which is heading 
toward a major bridge. I'm listening to my pocket radio, and an announcer says 
the bridge has just collapsed! So I try to warn the driver, but he says, 
"Baloney. It couldn't fall." He won't stop. I try to convince the passengers, 
but no one will listen. No one listens, no one will stop. And the bus goes off 
the bridge, and I'm falling, falling... and wake up in a cold sweat.
--
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Re: [EVDL] 'Facts' about EV's debunked

[Lee Hart via EV]

--
Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart http://www.sunrise-ev.com
-Original Message-
From: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Sent: Oct 29, 2023 10:22 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: EV List Lackey 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 'Facts' about EV's debunked

Michael Ross wrote:
> There isn't enough copper (and so on) to electrify what uses petrol now,
> not in my lifetime. The greatest suppliers we prefer not to use - Russia in
> particular. There is copper in South America, but mines don't come on line
> overnight, more like over a decade.

David Roden wrote:
> Not to lump you in with them, but this is the kind of rhetoric that the anti-
> EV / anti-progress crowd repeats endlessly. Not enough copper,.not enough
> lithium, not enough , as if those were the only materials we could possibly
> use to build EVs.

The problem is not nature or physics; but rather human nature. People are good 
at dealing with an immediate crisis right in front of them; but terrible at the 
long-term planning needed to avoid the crisis in the first place.

Copper, lithium, and all the other raw materials are finite resources. But they 
are not consumed; they can be endlessly recycled. We just choose not to do it 
for economic reasons (money!)

Coal, oil, and gas are non-renewable resources, but we *BURN* them (because 
it's cheap and easy). No chance of recycling there! The consequences of the 
burning are slow, so people don't (or won't) recognize them.

> Science today isn't any less resourceful than it was then. IF we have the
> will, and IF we don't let the wailing foot- and knuckle-draggers hold us
> back, we'll find a way.

For our children's sake, let us hope so! What's that old saying? "Ve gets too 
soon old, und too late schmardt."

Lee


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Re: [EVDL] Tesla-Y KWH Efficiency

[Lee Hart via EV]

Tesla probably has a lot more tricks up its sleeve than just aerodynamics and 
motor/controller efficiency.

The old DC series motors and controllers were each about 90% efficient; so 
about 80% overall. Tesla's combined motor and controller have improved that to 
perhaps 90%; but that's only a 10 gain.

As has been said, the Cd is better. but the frontal area is also more than a 
typical small car conversion. So again, not that much of a gain.

It could be that Tesla is using special tires. I found a considerable 
improvement in mpg between "normal" tires and the special Bridgestone Potenzas 
that came on my Prius, and the Goodyear Invictas that came on my Plymouth 
minivan. I got a similar improvement in range when I used these particular 
tires on my EVs.

Brake drag is another factor. Most cars let the pads just barely touch the 
rotors. EVs take special pains to design the brakes to fully retract the pads.

Still another is wheel alignment. Most cars are designed with deliberate toe-in 
in front, and sometimes in the rear wheels as well. I think this is done to 
improve handling. But it increases rolling resistance. One of Solectria's 
tricks was to meticulously adjust their EVs for zero toe-in. You could easily 
push a Solectria Force with one hand.

Lee
--
Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart http://www.sunrise-ev.com
-Original Message-
From: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Sent: Oct 26, 2023 11:37 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: (-Phil-) 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla-Y KWH Efficiency

Tesla's PMSRM motor and SiCFET inverter tech is also pretty amazing for
efficiency.

FYI: I have a 2018 Model 3 and I tow all the time with no issues. Several
companies make a bolt-on hitch.

On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 7:48 AM Peri Hartman via EV
wrote:

> I think you nailed it. The Y has a Cd of 0.23 according to a few sites I
> checked. That's a pretty awesome number compared to almost any other
> car.
>
> If your test driving includes a lot of steep hills or starts and stops,
> the Cd probably won't make much difference. I presume you are driving
> mostly at constant speeds on relatively level ground. In the latter
> case, the rolling resistance and Cd are the important factors.
>
> Also, residential streets versus highways make a difference, of course.
> The Cd has little effect until you get close to highway speeds.
>
> Peri
>
> >
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Mark E. Hanson via EV"
> To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'"
> Cc: markehans...@gmail.com
> Sent: 26-Oct-23 06:58:13
> Subject: [EVDL] Tesla-Y KWH Efficiency
>
> >Hi Folks,
> >
> >
> >
> >I was curious why my Tesla-Y that's 4400 pounds came out ahead of my
> >conversions over the years (80's-2011) that averaged 334 watt hours per
> mile
> >or 3 miles per KWH (weighed closer to 2000lbs). The Tesla-Y display which
> >is DC at the battery, shows 244 watt hours per mile. I measured at the AC
> >outlet (actual KWH usage) with the KWH meter on OpenEVSE.com, also matched
> >the Tesla screen display at 36.77 KWH.
> >
> >
> >
> >The car traveled from 72,553 to 72,414 or 139 miles. 139/36.77=3.78 miles
> >per KWH or 264.5 watt hours per mile. With the car display at 244 watt
> >hours per mile, that's a 7.7% efficiency loss through the onboard charger,
> >so impressive aero efficiency as indicated on the InsideEVs website
> >comparing all EVs. Conversions are probably less efficient do to poorer
> >aero efficiency that takes an exponential hit at highway speeds.
> >
> >
> >
> >I was initially going to buy a Tesla-3 (now advertised at $37K) but said
> *no
> >towing* and the Y showed 3500 pounds of towing needed for towing my 5x8
> >trailer for solar panels/concrete/racking (solar volunteer club) and boat.
> >Not sure why the Tesla-3 says no towing when it uses the *same*
> drivetrain.
> >
> >
> >
> >BTW, I'm taking the advice of some and going to the dealer with the Bolt
> to
> >get the $1400 bait software 80% for 6200 miles - since the 2020 model
> >battery issues are less than 1% (most occurred in previous years
> 2017-2019).
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Have a renewable energy day,
> >
> >
> >
> >Mark
> >
> >
> >
> >Mark E. Hanson
> >
> >184 Vista Lane
> >
> >Fincastle, VA 24090
> >
> >540-473-1248 phone & FAX, 540-816-0812 cell
> >
> >REEVA: community service RE & EV project club
> >
> >Website: www.REEVAdiy.org (See Project Gallery)
> >
> >UL Certified PV Installer
> >
> >My RE&EV Circuits: www.EVDL.org/lib/mh
> >
> >REEVA Demo: http://youtu.be/4kqWn2H-rA0
> >
> >
> > https://www.weatherlink.com/embeddablePage/show/a88920376f864ecabaed843dd89
> >75b8d/signature> Fincastle Solar Weather Station
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >-- next part --
> >An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> >URL: 
> >http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20231026/70d11bc0/attachment.htm
> >
> >___
> >Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
> >No other 

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Wait - what? MORE labor hours?

[Lee Hart via EV]

It's going to be incredibly difficult to find *real* numbers.

For one thing, carmakers outsource the production of a great many 
components and subassemblies. There will be no way to account for the 
labor the subcontractors put into these assemblies.


For another, all cars (EVs and ICEs alike) are getting increasingly more 
complex, and offered in a bewildering number of styles and options. The 
newer the vehicle, the more complicated it is. That's bound to increase 
labor per vehicle as well.


Yet another is that the legacy carmakers have had decades to optimize 
their automation for producing common parts for their ICEs to get their 
labor content down. This hasn't happened yet for EV parts.


If a carmaker chooses to make his own batteries (or tires, or wiring 
harnesses, etc.), his labor cost is going to go up. But he may do it 
anyway, because he can't find a reliable subcontractor, or because the 
total cost of doing it himself (parts and labor) is still cheaper than 
the low bidder's price.


Lee
--
I am thankful to all of those who said "no" to me. It's because of them
that I did it myself. -- Albert Einstein
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] Expensive batteries

[Lee Hart via EV]

EV List Lackey via EV wrote:

https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-owners-bill-battery-damaged-ev-
scotland-weather-2023-10

or https://v.gd/yIsSe4

Ouch.  That price, $21k, seems a tad pricey.

Regrettably the article is sorely lacking in detail...

One solution for the EV owner is leasing the battery, if not the car.


Battery leasing is pretty common in the industrial EV market. There are 
service companies that lease batteries for golf carts, fork lifts, etc. 
Companies often "can't be bothered" with maintaining their batteries 
themselves, and don't want "surprise" bills when one fails unexpectedly. 
So they pay a monthly fee to the service company, who guarantees they'll 
always have good batteries.


A golf course near me used this plan. The service company came in once a 
month to check, water, and clean the batteries, and replaced any that 
were getting weak. I bought the used ones from them cheap, and used them 
in my ComutaVan.


Likewise, when my wife worked at a hospital, they had a service company 
that blindly replaced their big UPS batteries every 3 years, no matter 
what. By talking to them, I was able to get the "pulls" for scrap 
prices. :-)


Lee

--
I am thankful to all of those who said "no" to me. It's because of them
that I did it myself. -- Albert Einstein
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] Right to Repair Tesla vs Aptera

[Lee Hart via EV]

David Heacock via EV wrote:

...Tesla seems to think they own the vehicle even after they sell it to the 
customer.
...a lot of talk about customer right to repair [but then block their ability 
to do so]


It isn't just Tesla. All manufacturers are doing it. This just 
illustrates the tactics of modern marketing.


- Counteract negative perceptions by loudly advertising the opposite.
(Ads show SUVs off-road when in fact they are inept at it)
- Badly-designed complex solutions are quicker and cheaper to design 
than well-thought-out simple ones.
	(Ford F-150 tail lights that cost $5000 to replace because it's a 
sealed assembly that includes computer modules, backup camera, etc.)

- Customer service is expensive; so avoid it as much as possible.
("Your call is important to us"; then they put you on hold for an hour)
- Planned obsolescence.
	(Rather than fix things, encourage customers to throw it out and buy 
another)



I was an early adopter of Apple computers and in the old days I always felt if 
you couldn't figure out how to use the computer for most of what it was capable 
of doing without reading the documentation it really wasn't what I wanted.


That statement is a bit hard to understand. The early microcomputers I 
used (Apple II, Heathkit, Commodore, Atari) came with a *huge* amount of 
documentation that worked hard to explain how it worked. That was 
necessary because most people had little or no knowledge with computers.


They also went out of their way to encourage the user to improve it and 
write their own programs. They were the equivalent of a Ford model T 
that came with a shop manual and a tool kit so you could fix it yourself.


Today's cars are the complete opposite. They do everything possible to 
prevent you from understanding it or repairing it yourself.


Lee

--
Results! Why man, I have gotten a lot of results. I have found
several thousand things that won't work. -- Thomas A. Edison
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] EV Distance Record Smashed

[Lee Hart via EV]

Alan Arrison via EV wrote:

100 miles on 1kWh? What are you smoking?

I'm pretty sure even an electric bicycle can't do that.


No; think about it. A bicycle goes about 15 mph. 100 miles / 15 mph 
takes 6.66 hours. 1 KWH is 150 watts for 6.66 hours. Lots of Ebikes have 
200 watt motors. With hard tires and good roads, an Ebike could easily 
do it.


The only challenge is that no normal Ebike has a battery pack that big. 
But you could easily add a battery that big.


Lee
--
Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily
available, they will create their own problems. -- Scott Adams
--
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Re: [EVDL] EV Distance Record Smashed

[Lee Hart via EV]

EV List Lackey via EV wrote:

I managed to find the article...  Top speed 42 km/h, 
Weight 170kg

For comparison, in 1987 the GM Sunraycer won the World Solar Challenge - all
energy from the sun... Top speed 109 km/h, Weight 177 kg.

These - and many others over the decades - are literal academic exercises.
Maybe an obscenely wealthy person could commission one like them as a toy.
Most of us couldn't, and probably wouldn't want to anyway.  Cool as they
are, they're not really very safe or practical for public roads.


I wouldn't go quite that far. They are experiments, to explore the 
limits of the possible.


An electric bicycle is a practical example of a hyper efficient vehicle. 
They aren't as safe as an armored SUV tank; yet millions of them are on 
the roads every day.



Wouldn't it be great if the automakers hired some of these students and put
them to work applying some of their efficiency optimizations to production
EVs?

Dream on, I guess 


Actually, GM *did* go to Paul MacReady of Aerovironment to design the 
"Impact" EV for them, and they did turn it into the production EV-1.


Lee

--
Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily
available, they will create their own problems. -- Scott Adams
--
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Re: [EVDL] (EVDL)EV charging is changing

[Lee Hart via EV]

Collin Kidder via EV  wrote:

my biggest problem with things like the Aptera is really safety. All
other things being equal, safety in a crash comes down to energy transfer.
And, energy is a function of mass and speed.


That's true, but all things are *not* equal. Fatality rates are a 
function not only of vehicle weight; but also construction, driver age, 
gender, skill level, the speed being driven, and more.


An 2020 IIHS report on actual fatality rates found that on average, 
heavier vehicles were safer. But the 20 safest vehicles included the VW 
Golf, Nissan Leaf, and Mitsubishi Outlander; all relatively small cars.


And the 20 vehicles with the highest fatality rates included the popular 
large pickups (Dodge RAM etc.)


The segment with the lowest fatality rates are neither the smallest nor 
the largest vehicles; they are mid-size sedans (like the Tesla) and 
(surprisingly) minivans.


Lee

--
Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily
available, they will create their own problems. -- Scott Adams
--
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Re: [EVDL] (EVDL)EV charging is changing

[Lee Hart via EV]

Michael Ross via EV wrote:

Boy, would I like this to work.
I must say that, on vehicle solar charging seems to me a marketing
strategy, not a useful design feature.


I agree. Their numbers sound like best-case marketing claims, rather 
than typical-use cases.



...1000 watts per square meter
...maybe 6 hours of peak sun
...collector efficiency might be 20%


So 20% of 1000 watts x 6 hours is 1200 watt-hours per day (at best)


...at 10kWh per 10 miles


I think you meant 1 KWH per 10 miles (10 miles per watt-hour). That is 
about triple the efficiency of a typical EV. If that's the case, then 
1200 watt-hours will go 12 miles. So I think you're right; 10-12 miles 
per day on sunlight alone.



They are claiming:
*1,000 miles on a single charge *(I love this!)


At 10 miles/KWH, that would require a 100 KWH pack; as big (and heavy) 
as a Tesla's! That sound like a pretty extreme marketing exaggeration.



*40 miles of solar powered driving per day *


The only way this is possible is if they seriously improved their 100 
WH/mile efficiency. But that might be possible. The Solectria Sunrise 
got it down to 60 WH/mile in racing form, and the solar Raycers are as 
low as 10 WH/mile (by being almost bicycles with solar panels).



There is going to be thousands of $ in that solar apparatus.
I would call that needless complication for marketing purposes.


It's a tough call. Commodity PV panels are much cheaper, but less 
efficient. As with any PV installation, one has to consider the value of 
the lifetime power generated to the initial cost. The economics might 
work out in the long run, if the cost of local grid power is high.


But there are the practicalities. Are you really going to leave an 
expensive Aptera sitting outside every day? Vandalism may be an issue.



Give me anything else, softer seats, a good stereo, good air flow perhaps
from fans, and let me plug it in the wall to get charged.


My guess would be that the average consumer values comfort and 
convenience more than bleeding-edge technology. But there will always be 
at least a few pioneers; so Aptera may find a small market. After all 
the Swiss Twike did.



It is interesting to note in all this discussion of charging that Aptera,
long before the OEMs decided to go with the Tesla plug, actually submitted
a petition for adoption of the Tesla plug nationwide.  Of course, most
people thought that was a stupid idea and figured it would never happen.
However, Aptera did decide to use the plug for their vehicles when they
come to production.


It may be that the other automakers had dreams of setting up their *own* 
charging monopoly. Aptera didn't have the resources to set up their own 
network; so they used Tesla's.



In an effort to increase the range of EVs most companies adopted the plan
of just installing a bigger battery pack which increased weight and most
likely decreased overall efficiency.  The result is naturally longer
charging times and efforts to increase the capacity of the charging units
themselves.


Yes; the automakers have always had a "more is better" philosophy. 1-ton 
cars become 2-ton EVs. As you say, doubling the weight will roughly 
double everything else; twice the materials, twice cost, twice the 
energy usage. A small light efficient EV could be dramatically cheaper, 
more efficient, and have a much better impact on global warming.



...average driving per day is 40-50 miles
...can simply plug in at home at night
...so why would most people even need to stop and fast charge


Exactly. But most people don't buy cars based on their actual daily 
*needs*; they buy based on their emotional *wants*. They want what 
everybody else has. They *want* to be able to drive 500 miles non-stop, 
to carry 6 people and a ton of lumber, drive off-road, etc. So they all 
buy big SUVs and pickup trucks to haul one person to the store or work 
50 miles a day.


There are of course people who do need to driver longer distances and 
carry more; but not enough to account for half the vehicles on the road 
being SUVs and trucks.


I wish Aptera all the best, and hope they can find enough of a market to 
survive. But I really wish there were more offerings in between the 
automaker's monster-tank EVs and petite hyper-car EVs.


Lee
--
Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily
available, they will create their own problems. -- Scott Adams
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] Level 2 on road charging complications

[Lee Hart via EV]

Mark Hanson via EV wrote:

... Seems nowadays with credit card readers this messy charging process
could be a *whole* lot simpler.


How is it that we can shop anywhere, and have no trouble paying with any 
of half a dozen methods. Yet to charge an EV, there are all these 
artificial hoops we have to jump through?


Lee

--
Whether we or our politicians know it or not, Nature is party to all
our deals and decisions, and she has more votes, a longer memory,
and a sterner sense of justice than we do. -- Wendell Berry
--
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Re: [EVDL] EV charging is changing

[Lee Hart via EV]

Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

  Level 2 charging is trivial and inexpensive if you have a 240 outlet close to 
your vehicle. A Tesla portable EVSE is $230. j1772 adapter from Tesla is 
$60.00. This setup will connect most EVs to the grid.


Exactly! So why is this never mentioned in any public discussion of EVs 
by the various reviewers, talking heads, and pundits? Every single 
article or news program I've seen or heard ignores home charging, and 
instead stresses the "need" for a vast public charging infrastructure.


Lee

--
Whether we or our politicians know it or not, Nature is party to all
our deals and decisions, and she has more votes, a longer memory,
and a sterner sense of justice than we do. -- Wendell Berry
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] EV charging is changing

[Lee Hart via EV]

EV@TucsonEV via EV wrote:

One of the reasons why parking meters went to CC systems is the fact that they
were continuously broken into and were more costly to maintain since they needed
someone to empty them of the change.


It's depressing to see how the future is developing. Like the Grateful 
Dead sang, "What a long strange trip it's been".


The impression I get is that "everyone" thinks public charging must 
follow the gas station model. All chargers must be "fast" and cost $5 or 
more to use. These expensive charging stations are frequently vandalized 
and broken.


Everyone drives 100-200 miles every day, and no one can charge at home 
without spending thousands of dollars on a home charging station. So we 
*must* have vast network of public charging stations to match the 
existing network of gas stations.


That's not the only solution, you know. Where I live, there are hundreds 
of free public AC outlets. They've been there for decades, for plugging 
in your ICE's block heaters in the winter. They don't get vandalized, 
except by an occasional errant snowplow. Every EV I've seen already has 
a built-in charger; all it needs is any normal AC outlet. I simply 
charge at home, or plugged in at work so by quitting time, my EV was 
fully charged.


There are parking meters that accept real coins, and meter readers that 
collect the coins (and put the tickets on your car if it's over-parked). 
I have yet to see one that takes credit cards.


There are no gated communities, and people generally don't lock their 
cars or their doors. Theft and vandalism are not enough of a problem to 
worry about.


Lee

--
Whether we or our politicians know it or not, Nature is party to all
our deals and decisions, and she has more votes, a longer memory,
and a sterner sense of justice than we do. -- Wendell Berry
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] EV charging is changing

[Lee Hart via EV]

John Lussmyer via EV wrote:

Wouldn't it be nice if charging points would accept cash?  There'd be no
need for them to phone home for ID card verification or for credit card
approval. Just shovel in some cash and charge, like parking at a parking
meter.


And have the machines broken off their stands and stolen - just like 
happens to store ATM machines.


Wouldn't it depend on how much they charge per hour, or per KWH? Nobody 
steals parking meters. There isn't enough money in them to make it 
worthwhile.


At $0.10/KWH, a 10 KW charging station is only costing $1/hour for 
electricity. An EV that uses 300 WH/mile gets 33 miles of charge for 
each hour parked.


Lee
--
Whether we or our politicians know it or not, Nature is party to all
our deals and decisions, and she has more votes, a longer memory,
and a sterner sense of justice than we do. -- Wendell Berry
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] Dielectric Grease on Connectors

[Lee Hart via EV]

Mark E. Hanson via EV wrote:

I've been using 3M dielectric grease on all outside (weather exposed)
connectors (solar panels) and light bulb sockets since I was knee-high to a
grasshopper (after seeing it used on automotive/boating connectors).

What would be a good lubricant for charging connectors if dielectric grease
is not?


Like Mark, I've always use dielectric grease (or even vaseline in a 
pinch) to maintain good connections over time. It doesn't affect the 
connection resistance, and keeps out air, water, and dirt.


High-current connectors must have a high contact pressure to maintain a 
low resistance despite any surface corrosion. Pressure and sliding 
surfaces will rub off any minor amounts of pre-existing surface 
oxidation or corrosion.


Dielectric grease is formulated so the pressure is enough to keep it out 
of the contact surfaces themselves, but will surround them to keep air, 
water, and other contaminants from corroding the connection over time.


This is especially important with aluminum, where it is very difficult 
to create and maintain good connections.


Lee

--
Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has! -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] HV cable suppliers

[Lee Hart via EV]

Dave Lagzdin via EV wrote:

From time to time I need HV shielded cable typically 50 or 70mm 1/0 2/0.
Looking for more suppliers, ones that respool as I don't need that much
50-100 ft at a time.


I've made my own by buying shielding braid, and slipping it over the 
wire or cable as needed. For example 
www.wireandcableyourway.com/belden-8669-8-9-awg-hook-up-wire-braided-tinned-copper 
is 0.5" diameter. Various sizes are available from wire suppliers like 
Belden.


If it's big enough, you can strip scrap/surplus RF transmitting coax 
cable (RG-8, RG-11, RG-58, RG-59 etc.) and slide its braided shield over 
your own cables. You need the /U version with a braided copper shield; 
cheap TV coax only has a foil shield and won't work.


You can wrap thick wires or cable bundles with aluminum or copper foil. 
Companies like www.tapejungle.com/categories/foil-tape.html sell copper 
adhesive tape that is good for this purpose.


Finally, you can route your cables in metal conduit. I did this on my 
LeCar EV for the 2/0 cables that run under the car between the front and 
rear battery boxes. It provides both shielding and protection from road 
debris.


If you do a good enough job with your shielding, even the AM radio will 
work! :-)


Hope this helps,
Lee

--
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Re: [EVDL] [GGEVA] Home built solar vehicle

[Lee Hart via EV]

(-Phil-) via EV wrote:

I'd hardly call this a "Solar powered" vehicle.  The single 225w panel on
there isn't going to contribute much range when he's maxing out that 1kW
hub motor.  His pack is so small that he can't bank the extra range
when he's not driving, again, he'd probably be better off mounting the
panel on his house, then he can use the grid as his battery and charge the
car at night.

Also... He's using a simple boost converter to match the
PV to his pack... without MPPT, he's leaving a lot of wattage on the table.
These are all worthwhile areas for improvement, Phil. But we don't know 
how he intended to use the vehicle. Maybe he doesn't have a home where 
he can mount his PV panels. Maybe he has "just enough" PV to cover his 
daily range. Maybe it's just an experiment, to see what works and what 
doesn't.


It does illustrate what is probably the biggest problem with home-built 
vehicles; the lack of knowledge and experience. My first EV (in the 
1970's) was barely functional, because I knew so little and had no 
sources of good information. In theory, it should be easier today; but 
the internet has more bad information than good. Experimentation may 
have been his only way to get accurate knowledge.



(Though I wouldn't want to be caught dead in it, which is likely with traffic 
in India!)


Well, it's probably safer than a bicycle, or motorcycle, or tuk-tuk. :-)

Lee

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Re: [EVDL] Home built solar vehicle

[Lee Hart via EV]

Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

Home built solar vehicle, step by step video. Cyber ish. 



Thanks for the link, Lawrence. That is an impressive home-built project! 
His fabrication skills are remarkable. It won't match the efficiency and 
performance of a Lightyear or Aptera, but he did it for a thousandth of 
the cost. Hopefully it will be a practical vehicle for his intended use, 
and a springboard for future projects.


Lee

--
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Re: [EVDL] our own John f-250 conversion featured on YouTube.

[Lee Hart via EV]

Ryan Fulcher via EV wrote:

John, did you see this yet: https://youtu.be/f0DX5uzfUqQ


Hey, that's really cool! Congratulations John, on a great EV conversion!

Lee

--
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Re: [EVDL] EV Grin doubled, next level PV Aptera grins.

[Lee Hart via EV]

John Lussmyer via EV wrote:
People would also need to be willing to accept the crash safety level of 
a motorcycle.


I don't think it's nearly that bad. Many small and light ICE vehicles 
have nevertheless passed crash test standards and had excellent safety 
records. It just requires that the designers don't use weight as a 
substitute for safety.


An EV example was the Solectria Sunrise, an ultra-efficient 4-passenger 
sedan that weighed only 1433 lbs (630 kg); yet it passed the DOT crash 
test standards at the time (1996).


BTW: I wondered who built the first solar-powered car, and ran across this:

"In 1962, the American engineer and businessman Charles Escoffery built 
the world's first solar car. Because there were no EVs on the market at 
the time, Escoffery used a 1912 Baker Electric as the basis for his 
solar car. The car was basically unmodified, except for the addition of 
a plate with 10,000 International Rectifier photovoltaic solar cells on 
the roof. Power was routed to the batteries via power cables at the 
front and back of the panel."


"If you left the Baker Electric with the solar panel in the sun for 
eight to ten hours, the batteries were full charged. You could then 
drive it about 50 miles in three hours at an average speed of 18 mph (30 
kmh)."


That's actually pretty impressive for such early technology!

Lee

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Re: [EVDL] EV Grin doubled, next level PV Aptera grins.

[Lee Hart via EV]

Ryan Fulcher via EV wrote:

I absolutely understand and am of the mind to still proclaim that PV
on a normal car is still impractical.

The only reason it works on the Aptera [and other super-efficient
vehicles] is that it has the aerodynamics and efficiency of an
electrathon.


I agree. A normal car is just too big and heavy, and has too much drag 
for PV to make any real difference.


But, nothing says that a car needs to weigh two tons to transport one 
person 30 miles per day (the daily average according to AAA). It *is* 
possible for an ultra-efficient and streamlined vehicle to do that on 
solar power alone.


There have been plenty of examples, though few ever made it into 
production. Alas, people are slow to change. It may take a long time 
before small, light efficient vehicles become socially acceptable.


Lee Hart

--
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Re: [EVDL] Which sex buys more EVs?

[Lee Hart via EV]

David Nelson wrote:

hill. Locking the brakes prevents it from being towed or pushed.



And that was the problem! I get locking them when the car shuts off,
they had issues with a weak parking pawl mount in the gear box, so I
think this is why they defaulted to activating the parking brake
automatically in later years. They just could have honored the parking
switch in the cabin and released the brakes when requested. I was
going to tow it the rest of the way home. I was also curious if
regenerative braking would have charged it enough to make it up the
driveway.


Alas, that's the problem with overly complex solutions. They get *so* 
complicated that no one can anticipate the unintended consequences.


As Kelly Johnson (head of the Lockheed "Skunk Works") famously said: 
"KISS - Keep It Simple, Stupid!" :-)


Lee

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Re: [EVDL] Which sex buys more EVs?

[Lee Hart via EV]

Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
So, if most of the electronics and servos are powered from the 12V 
battery, why can't a jumper cable from another car give enough energy to 
operate those things, including the parking brake ?


That's a good idea. It would probably work, too!

One of my early EV conversions had a big 12v battery (left over from 
when it was an ICE) but no DC/DC converter. The 12v loads all ran off 
the 12v battery while driving, and I recharged it at the end of the 
drive at the same time as the propulsion batteries.


It worked, but things like the headlights were dimmer and the wipers 
were slower.


Then one cold rainy day I took a long drive, and the 12v battery went 
dead before the propulsion pack did. There wasn't enough 12v power left 
to pull in the contactors, so I couldn't drive.


I fixed the problem by jumpering the 12v battery to 18v worth of the 
propulsion pack (three 6v batteries). That recharged the 12v battery 
enough to continue the drive and get home.


After that, I installed a DC/DC converter. :-)

From: David Nelson via EV

One time my wife drove our 2018 Kia Soul EV 124 miles to work and back
without charging at work. That car had ~100 mile range but would
increase if she got stuck in traffic. We live up a hill with ~500' of
elevation climb so when she was almost home the car quit. She barely
got off the road...


Thanks for the story. So it *can* happen! It sounds like she managed to 
go (almost) 124 miles on a 100-mile pack, which is pretty amazing.


But having it lock the brakes seems like design bug (or design 
"feature", i.e. a bug dressed up as a feature). I would think it should 
ultimately just stop when it didn't have enough power to climb that last 
hill. Locking the brakes prevents it from being towed or pushed.


Lee

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Re: [EVDL] Tires

[Lee Hart via EV]

Thos True via EV wrote:

Hi Lee,
An option that might be worth considering would be to check wrecking yards
for 14' or 15" wheels with the same bolt pattern.


Ah, but the LeCar has 3-bolt rims. The French carmakers Renault and 
Citroen are the only ones I know of that uses 3-bolt rims. Finding those 
in an American junkyard would be quite a challenge!


Lee

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Re: [EVDL] Tires

[Lee Hart via EV]

Many thanks to Cor van de Water, David Roden, -Phil_, and Mr. Sharkey 
for your tire suggestions! Tire Rack and Discount Tire have the Kumho 
155/80R13 in stock (for online order), so that's what I may go with. But 
I forwarded your suggestions to the buyer, and we'll see what he wants.


Lee

--
The storage battery is one of those peculiar things which appeals to
the imagination, and no more perfect thing could be desired by stock
swindlers. Just as soon as a man gets working on the secondary battery,
it brings out his latent capacity for lying. -- Thomas A. Edison
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Re: [EVDL] Cell Tower Interference

[Lee Hart via EV]

Bill Dube via EV wrote:

I agree with Phil.

I also doubt that cell towers are the root cause of your issue.


I agree; cell phones operate at GHz frequencies, which is highly 
unlikely to affect any EV electronics.


However, wherever they put cell towers, they may also put *other* radio 
services. There's a city water tower near us, and it literally bristles 
with dozens of radio antennas; police, fire, FM radio stations, etc. 
They operate at lower frequencies and higher power levels, which *may* 
get into your EV wiring.


The problem is likely due to the motor wiring and other power wiring not 
kept separate/distant from the throttle wiring. The throttle wiring 
needs to be a small, shielded, 3-wire cable, kept very distant from any 
battery or motor cables.


Additionally, the motor cables need to be kept very close to one 
another, and the battery cables need to travel in pairs that are also 
kept close to one another. Every battery cable that emerges from a 
battery module needs to be paired tightly with the opposite polarity 
battery cable carrying the return current.


That's all good advice. When this can't be done (for instance the wiring 
between cells inside a battery box), then the box itself should be 
metal, or have some kind of shielding (even grounded aluminum foil will 
work).


A portable AM radio is an easy way to "sniff" for RF noise. Tune the 
radio between stations, and turn up the volume. If something is emitting 
broadband RF noise, it's likely to interfere with AM radio.


Lee

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[EVDL] Tires

[Lee Hart via EV]

A recent comment reminded me: I need new tires for my Lectric Leopard 
(Renault LeCar) EV. Stock size is 145/80R13, but 155/80R13 also fit. The 
rims are 4.5" wide, so a wide profile tire isn't a good fit.


I'm finding it difficult to find any 13" tires, let alone low rolling 
resistance ones. Yet I know there are small EVs and other cars that have 
used them. Does anyone know of any sources?


Lee

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Re: [EVDL] White House welcomes Tesla to take advantage of federal dollars for chargers

[Lee Hart via EV]

Jay Summet wrote:

So I would expect the SAE and other national standards groups to have
more influence than any single company, as they typically represent a
broad swath of the industry.


Marco Gaxiola wrote:

The interesting part here is that 'the broad swath of the industry' now, in
the US and NA is Tesla, Ford, GM, Rivian, Aptera and most of EVSE companies
[are] moving into NACS.

So who the broad swath of the industry is (or moving towards to be very
soon) and who should the government support now?


In the US, standards are generally set by industry; not government. SAE 
standards (like the one that gave us J1772) was created by an auto 
industry coalition. Likewise, the NEC gave us the Article 625, which 
sets standards for EV charging.


Since they are voluntary standards (not laws), there is no enforcement 
mechanism. An automaker may agree to parts of the standard, but is free 
to violate other parts as they see fit. They can also ignore the 
standard entirely and create a new one when they feel it's in their best 
interest (i.e. more profitable).


In such an environment, EV charging is going to constantly keep 
changing, as the various companies vie for control. There won't be a 
"true" standard until someone gains monopoly control and drives out 
everyone else.


Lee
--
The great thing about standards is that there are so many to choose 
from. (anonymous)

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Vroom, vroom oops

[Lee Hart via EV]

EV List Lackey via EV wrote:

I'm speechless, and you know that doesn't happen often.

https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/15/23762020/electric-ev-manual-transmission-
fake-noise-toyota-lexus

or https://v.gd/yzYmkI


As described, it sounds like a pretty lame idea. But maybe that's just 
the author's opinion?


All ICEs with automatic transmissions still have "gearshift" levers. 
They are used for forward/reverse of course; but also to select various 
"performance" or "economy" modes of operation. People seem to expect 
them, and enjoy using them.


My EV conversions all had manual transmissions -- left over from when 
they were ICEs. The transmission made it easy to select between low, 
medium, and high-speed ranges. It was also a way to optimize performance 
and efficiency without a complicated or expensive motor or controller.


My Leaf EV has a "gear shift". It's just a switch that selects between 
forward/reverse, and normal/enhanced braking. It certainly has utility 
as an operating control, and gets used.


So the "gearshift" lever may no longer actually shift gears, but it's a 
familiar control that will just get re-purposed for other uses.


Lee

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Re: [EVDL] Game over the Tesla NACS wins the day

[Lee Hart via EV]

Bill Dube via EV wrote:
>>  Perhaps some enterprising person will come up with an
>> "anonymizer" charging cord that will limit the data from your car to
>> the very minimum needed to get a charge.

Jay Summet via EV wrote:
My understanding is that a Level 2 (J1772) charger does basically 
that.


Yes; and perhaps that is why they want to drop it in favor of a more 
data-invasive charging system. We EV owners are getting the early 
"benefit" of these "improvements".


Consider: How would ICE people react if the automakers dropped support 
for the present standardized "dumb" gas station filler, and replaced it 
with a "smart" one that connected to your car's computer and your bank 
account? All the data gathered on where and how fast you drive gets 
routed to the oil companies, automakers, insurance companies, 
advertisers, etc.


Think of how convenient it would be! Automatic payments, without having 
to open your wallet. Extra ads to your phone for places to shop or eat 
up ahead. Reminders that you're due for an oil change, or to fix that 
check engine light. Updates to your vehicle's computers. Corrections to 
your insurance policy based on your driving. Wouldn't people think all 
these benefits are worth the extra cost to the vehicle and added cost 
for each fill-up?


Lee

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Re: [EVDL] Game over the Tesla NACS wins the day

[Lee Hart via EV]

Bill Dube via EV wrote:

They want to gather data. It has serious value.


EV List Lackey via EV wrote:

And I don't want to give it to them.

I'm paying them to charge.  I don't owe them anything else.


I feel the same way. I don't want to live in an Orwellian "big brother" 
future, where everything I do is spied upon and marketed and sold for 
someone else's benefit.


I don't use a smartphone. I don't have any credit cards. And I'm not 
going to use any of these stations that charge $5 for $0.50 worth of 
electricity and sell my data to marketers and scammers.


No, I can't stop them from building a world where we are all just 
sheeple to be sheared for the farmer's benefit. But I don't have to 
cooperate.


Lee

--
Welcome my son. Welcome to the machine...
It's all right, we know where you've been...
-- Pink Floyd
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Chinese EVs are headed for the US

[Lee Hart via EV]

Willie via EV wrote:

Tesla seems right on the verge of offering a ~$25k car.


Experience has taught me to *never* believe anything that the automakers
*say* they are going to do. Only believe what they have *actually done.


In addition, ALL Tesla models are being groomed for lower cost
production.


Ah, but isn't that a truism for *all* big companies? What matters is how
much of the savings are passed on to the customers vs. how much they
keep for themselves to increase profits.


Right now, many/most/all legacy auto producers seemed doomed to bankruptcy.


I'm with you there, Willie! :-) All of them seemed to be intent on "how 
can we squeeze more money out of our customers?" than on "how can we 
serve them better?"


Lee

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Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 127, Issue 14

[Lee Hart via EV]

Tim Economu via EV wrote:
I too live in rural American, and my statement still stands. We do road 
trips of 6k-10k every year, and definitely NOT on the interstates. The 
Tesla supercharging network doesn't require you be on the major routes...


It all depends on where you live and drive, Tim. Tesla's supercharger 
map  shows that they are all 
concentrated in the big cities, on the east and west coast, and along 
the major highways between them. If that's where you live and drive, great!


But large areas of the midwest (like where I live) are a long way from 
the nearest supercharger. Especially for people who don't drive long 
distances, there isn't any appeal for a long-range EV or supercharging.


On the other hand, public 120v and 240v outlets are everywhere. Just 
about every home, business, and building has them. Most are free for 
use; just ask. If you have the right driving style, they are all you 
need for opportunity charging. And of course, most EV charging is done 
at home.


Don't get me wrong; there is a *market* for expensive long-range EVs and 
"gas station" style supercharger public charging stations. It's a way to 
perpetuate the ICE driving model that most people are familiar with.


But it's not the *only* model. There is also a significant market for 
inexpensive local EVs that never need anything more than home or free 
public charging. This part of the market is being ignored; and is 
precisely the one that I suspect the Chinese will come to dominate.


Lee

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Chinese EVs are headed for the US

[Lee Hart via EV]

EV List Lackey via EV  wrote:

Say goodbye to the US car market as we know it: Cheap Chinese EVs are
coming.


Danny Ames via EV wrote:

I disagree that Tesla is about to lose its crown... Tesla is not
going to lose its lead anytime, soon if ever.


I suspect the future lies somewhere between these two extremes.

Tesla isn't going to go away any time soon; but they are likely to 
remain in the performance/luxury car market, like Porsche and Ferrari.


The Chinese are going to take over the lower end of the market, which is 
being under-served by all the US carmakers.


Lee

--
Problems and solutions always come together. They just don't arrive in 
the same box.

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Re: [EVDL] Which sex buys more EVs?

[Lee Hart via EV]

Bob Bath via EV wrote:

I’d read an article about women being more concerned about being stranded 
without a charge.


Is that fear an unfounded rumor, or does it really happen?

EV batteries don't suddenly go dead, like an ICE running out of gas. 
Every EV I've ever owned or driven provides plenty of warning when it's 
running low on charge; far more than an ICE "low fuel" light. And, it 
never really stops; it just keeps getting slower and slower. It may shed 
loads like the heater or A/C, and limit your speed and acceleration. But 
it will still get you home or to the next charger. It will never die on 
the railroad tracks like an ICE that's out of gas.


Even the infamous Jeremy Clarkson had to go to extraordinary lengths to 
get a Tesla to actually stop moving due to a low battery.


Lee


https://jalopnik.com/theres-a-massive-gender-gap-when-it-comes-to-buying-and-
1847862805


I don't "buy" this survey. My wife bought our Leaf. :-)

This "massive gender gap" could well be just the biased result of a 
poorly designed survey conducted with anecdotal data.


Lee
--
"9 out of 10 people surveyed said they'll buy a Ferrari." *
(* = if they win the lottery)
--
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Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 127, Issue 13

[Lee Hart via EV]

Tim Economu via EV wrote:
Once you road trip in a Tesla, you won't ever consider another brand, at 
least until the US gets it charging in place (5+ years)..


That's fine if you live in a big city or do lots of long-distance 
driving on the interstates. But I live in a rural area (mid-state 
Minnesota). The nearest Superchargers are in Minneapolis/St.Paul, which 
is over 70 miles away. We rarely go there; in fact we haven't been there 
yet this year.


But there are plenty of free 120v outlets, and a couple of free 240v 
J1772 charging stations. Those, and charging at home have met 100% of 
our needs.


Since we don't drive very far, our Leaf and my own EV conversions have 
been fine for us.


Lee

--
Whatever the problem, be part of the solution. Don’t just sit
around raising questions and pointing out obstacles. -- Tina Fey
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Re: [EVDL] Why Toyota Isn't Rushing to Sell You an Electric

[Lee Hart via EV]

Michael Ross via EV wrote:

An EV on average requires 5 times as much copper as an ICEV...


That seems a bit extreme. ICEs are also increasingly loaded with copper, 
thanks to the preponderance of creature features and infotainment systems.


Copper is also highly recyclable, and there are alternatives like aluminum.

There are always more solutions than problems. We just have to look for 
them.


Lee

--
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Re: [EVDL] A123 battery charger

[Lee Hart via EV]

Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

I have some left over A123 Systems ANR2665M1A cells. I would like to
use a few to power some flashlights. What charger works with these
cells? Seems the specifications call for a different voltage than
18650s due to iron chemistry.


Hi Lawrence,

Yes, the A123 cells are different than today's 18650 cells. According to 
the data sheet, the recommended charge method is 3A constant current to 
3.6v or 45 minutes max, then off. Float charging is not recommended.


I don't know of any commercial charger for them. But this algorithm is 
simple enough to implement with a bench supply. Set its current limit to 
3A, its voltage limit to 3.6v, and plug it into a timer that shuts it 
off after 45 minutes.


Bill Dube used these cells, and has a lot of experience with them. He's 
still monitoring the list. Perhaps he has some additional comments.


Lee

--
"All children are born engineers. Watch them at play. They're not
just playing; they're experimenting, building and learning. That's
engineering! Then we get them in school and squash it out of them."
(Geoffrey Orsak, Southern Methodist University dean of engineering)
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Re: [EVDL] China fires back!

[Lee Hart via EV]

Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
Paul, how did "small entrepreneurs" import to the US ? It's my 
understanding that the current regulations make it next to impossible ? 
If it is possible, I'd like to look into importing a Citroen Zoe or 
something similar.


I'm not Paul, but I can provide some hints.

You can import just about any piece of machinery as long as it's not a 
"vehicle". So in some cases, the vehicle was imported in pieces; often 
with its engine or other major parts removed. A number of imported EVs 
were actually ICEs that were shipped in with the ICE parts removed. That 
eliminated emission control testing.


When it arrives, you can put it back together; but you still cannot 
register it to drive on public roads without creating a new title 
according to your state's requirements. Every state has different 
requirements and inspections.


I've done this a couple times; once in New York, and once in Michigan. 
Each time, I discovered that the the state inspectors do this so rarely 
that they really didn't understand what they're doing; so it was easy 
for them to say, "No, it can't be done. Go away." I had to look up the 
regulations myself, and almost read it to them to get it done.


Lee

--
"All children are born engineers. Watch them at play. They're not
just playing; they're experimenting, building and learning. That's
engineering! Then we get them in school and squash it out of them."
(Geoffrey Orsak, Southern Methodist University dean of engineering)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] China fires back!

[Lee Hart via EV]

paul dove via EV wrote:

So, which Chinese EV should I purchase?


My personal experience suggests *none* of them. I've seen and driven a 
few Chinese EVs that have been imported by various small entrepeneurs. 
The quality has been unbelievably poor.


I agree with Paul Compton that the Chinese *can* make high quality 
products, when the buyer demands it. The problem at the consumer level 
is that most of the companies importing things from China don't care 
about quality; they only care about price. You want cheap; you get cheap!


But at some point, I can well imagine that some large US corporation 
will start importing Chinese vehicles. They will demand higher quality, 
because they will have a lot to lose if they try to sell junk.


Lee

--
"All children are born engineers. Watch them at play. They're not
just playing; they're experimenting, building and learning. That's
engineering! Then we get them in school and squash it out of them."
(Geoffrey Orsak, Southern Methodist University dean of engineering)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] China fires back!

[Lee Hart via EV]

EV List Lackey via EV wrote:

On 5 Apr 2023 at 18:17, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:


This doesn't bode well for almost all EV makers outside of China:
https://japannews.yomiuri.co.jp/world/asia-pacific/20230405-101753/


The sensible ones are already on it:

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/china-frictions-steer-
electric-automakers-away-rare-earth-magnets-2021-07-19/

or https://v.gd/SnnDcU


Big corporations tend to favor monoculture solutions (*one* way to do 
everything). Economies of scale, marketing pressures, monopolies, and 
good old "we've always done it this way" tend to push everyone into 
using *one* technology, even when there are viable alternatives. This 
is, after all, why we're still stuck on ICEs despite the alternatives.


But what happens when over-use of that one solution leads to shortages 
in a key component? History shows that corporations tend to force new 
supplies to be exploited (more mining, more environmental destruction, 
more revolutions, even more *war*).


The more rational option is to use something else, or find a better 
alternative. But this only seems to be tried after the brute-force 
methods fail. To paraphrase Winston Churchill, "You can always count on 
corporations to do the right thing, after they have exhausted every 
other possibility."


There are plenty of other types of motors that don't need magnets. EVs 
have been using induction and series motors successfully for decades. 
There may be some minor performance reductions (slightly bigger, 
heavier, or a bit less efficient). But we rarely allow the "perfect" to 
drive out the "good enough". For example, silver is a better conductor, 
but we use copper instead because it's cheaper and more available.


Magnets can also be made without rare earths. Material science is 
advancing at a rapid pace, so it is likely that alternatives will be 
found that are just as good, perhaps even better.


Recycling can of course provide another source of supply. Magnets don't 
"evaporate"; instead of being dumped in a landfill, they could be 
recovered and re-used.


Note that all these arguments apply as well to other "scarce" materials, 
like lithium for batteries.


Lee Hart

--
"All children are born engineers. Watch them at play. They're not
just playing; they're experimenting, building and learning. That's
engineering! Then we get them in school and squash it out of them."
(Geoffrey Orsak, Southern Methodist University dean of engineering)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] 2013 Leaf Regen during cold weather

[Lee Hart via EV]

Mark Hanson via EV wrote:

Last year when regen was intermittently dropping out at 26F degrees, I took it 
to the stealership who said it was a bad 12V battery they wanted to replace for 
$500.  I got an Optima at Advance Auto and then this year (surprise ) the 
problem is back. I assume they must be turning off the regen when it gets below 
26F.  Not sure why since the battery tolerates 100s of amps load, going through 
other way shouldn’t matter.


Hi Mark,

I also have a 2013 Leaf, and even in sub-zero weather have not noticed a 
loss of regen. It does have the battery heater, but it doesn't seem to 
come on until the temp is below zero.


But battery performance is definitely impacted by cold. The range is 
about half as much, and it takes much longer to charge.


Lee

--
Scientists investigate that which already is. Engineers create that
which has never been. -- Albert Einstein
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Can you fix your own Tesla?

[Lee Hart via EV]

EV List Lackey wrote:

Exactly!  Right to Repair is a major concern for every vehicle owner...
Other privacy matters arise, too...


To me, the issue hinges on trust. We have a right to decide *who* we 
trust with our property and data. It should not be arbitrarily placed in 
the hands of for-profit corporations and anonymous bureaucrats unless we 
*choose* to trust them.


Of late, the morals and ethics of such large organizations have become 
increasingly unreliable. They do things not for our benefit, but to 
increase their own power and wealth.


There are good reasons why politicians and auto companies rank very low 
in surveys on who people trust.


Lee

--
Trust is built on telling the truth, not telling people what they want 
to hear. -- Simon Sinek

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Re: [EVDL] Motley Fool issues all in advisory for Tesla

[Lee Hart via EV]

Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

Most already have small-car factories and/or divisions all over the world,
so unlike Tesla, they don't need to design and build new ones just to make a
small EV. One small detail. Very hard to transform ice factory to EV production.
https://youtu.be/p3SDKhRFHyQ 
Not so fast. His "80% of the factory needs to be re-tooled" is what the 
manufacturers face every time they re-tool for *any* new model, 
regardless of whether it is an ICE or EV.


Lee

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which has never been. -- Albert Einstein
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Re: [EVDL] FLA bad cell question

[Lee Hart via EV]

Barry Oppenheim via EV wrote:

I have three 6V deep cycle batteries, each with a presumed bad cell
(voltage ~4.4V charged).  Can I combine them into one 12V battery and
charge with a 12V charger?


If you're desperate, here's an old trick from my grandpa. Drive a few 
big screws into the bad cell to short its plates together. It obviously 
turns a 6V battery into a 4v battery, but as you say, three 4v batteries 
in series still gives you 12v.


If it's a flooded battery, drain the acid out so the screw won't 
corrode, and drive the screws in via the vent hole.


If it's an AGM, you have to drive them through the case. It's likely to 
leak, and the acid inside will slowly corrode the screws away; so it's 
only good as a temporary emergency measure.


Lee Hart

--
A bell's not a bell 'til you ring it.
A song's not a song 'til you sing it.
And love in your heart wasn’t put there to stay.
Love isn’t love 'til you give it away.
(Oscar Hammerstein II, from Sound of Music)
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Re: [EVDL] Happy holidays!

[Lee Hart via EV]

Lee Hart via EV wrote:

Ron Solberg via EV wrote:

Happy Holidays to you too Lee.



Hi Ron,

It's great to hear from you...


Oops; sorry gang! This was supposed to go to Ron, not the EVDL.

Lee

--
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable man
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw
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Re: [EVDL] Happy holidays!

[Lee Hart via EV]

Ron Solberg via EV wrote:

Happy Holidays to you too Lee.
This is a snapshot of our OutBack 3KW PV as the suns shines on our house
here in Hills, MN today. Everyone on the EVDL keeps me going in the
right direction thanks so much for all you do.
Ron Solberg


Hi Ron,

It's great to hear from you. Glad to know you're still plugging away on 
your projects. Do you still have the model A? Any new projects?


On PV: Is 3KW enough for you to go off-grid? If so, what do you use for 
batteries.


Sadly, the Sunrise EV project fell apart. Once Bob Rice (who started the 
project) passed away, there was no manager to hold it together. Everyone 
else wandered off in their own different direction. I was following 
Bob's original vision of a light, efficient, affordable kit car. Tim 
Medeck (who you met) was just in it for the money. Others bought Teslas, 
or worked on their own independent projects.


So at this point, I'm soldiering on alone. I'm just working on the 
prototype for my own use. There's clearly no market for 
build-your-own-EV kit cars. Similarly, no one is interested in any of my 
EV-related electronics.


I bought a Solectria Force, which I'm restoring. It's based on the Geo 
Metro, and though not as efficient as the Sunrise, it's a lot easier to 
get parts. In the meantime, I bought a Nissan Leaf, which is our daily 
driver.


Otherwise, I'm selling a lot of vintage microcomputer kits. For some 
reason, they are popular. A friend of mine says, "The more useless the 
project, the more it interests people." He may be right.


Happy New Year,
Lee

--
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable man
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla slashes its car prices as much as 20% to prop up sagging sales, where?s the $30K EV? A Chevy Bolt?

[Lee Hart via EV]

Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

I keep hearing that Tesla might introduce a smaller, cheaper EV.  That would
open up EVs to a wider range of drivers, but would also cut into their
profits.


I continue to wonder why a smaller cheaper car would mean lower profits. 
It seems like there are endless examples of cars (and many other 
products) where profits *increased* when cheaper versions were produced 
in higher volumes.


A smaller car uses less materials, so can be cheaper to produce.

Vast numbers of people just need basic transportation; they don't want 
(and can't afford) high-end stereos, NAV systems, heated seats, supercar 
performance, fancy wheels, etc. It's an under-served market.


Tesla may not be the right company to deliver on this. Right now, they 
are capacity limited; so they may as well sell the cars they can build 
for as high a price as possible. Their market is mainly up-scale luxury 
performance vehicles.


But I can certainly see some other automaker recognizing the need; and 
they may be working right now to make the next "peoples-car" to fill it.


Lee

--
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable man
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw
--
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Re: [EVDL] Do EVs make green sense?

[Lee Hart via EV]

Mark Laity-Snyder via EV wrote:

  John,  YOU ROCK dude!
That is hardcore. I guess it makes sense though if you are living in a city.  I 
have been out in the sticks for too long and have gotten used to having to 
commute.
I also totally agree with our Fearful leader/servant Dave when he says - EVs 
can be zero energy if you have enough PV.  The naysayers aren't interested in 
PV because that would take away from the Gasaholic lifestyle.

I spent 10 years living in Portland OR without a car. Commuted to work as an 
auto tech by bicycle or mass transit. Really the only sane way if one is 
concerned about the environment. It was also way less expensive.


Good for you both! There is hope. We have the power to change the 
future. We can make the world a better place for our children and future 
generations.


But it won't happen if we sit on our butts, and simply repeat the past, 
do what everyone else does, and expect "someone else" to solve all our 
problems for us.


I've been building and driving EVs since the 1970's. For most of that 
time, that meant driving cars with Ford model A class performance while 
everyone else drove cars more luxurious than their homes. The nay-sayers 
no doubt think I wasted my time and money. But I've learned so much, and 
helped many others see what is possible. And that makes me happy.


Those of you reading this list are also part of the solution. Yes, it 
costs us in money, comfort, and ego to invest in the future rather than 
instant gratification. But just as saving now pays big dividends when we 
retire, the work we do now will have a huge payback in the future of the 
world.


Lee
--
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable man
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] Do EVs make green sense?

[Lee Hart via EV]

Michael Ross via EV wrote:

I am trying to understand if Zeihan has an agenda... what does it take to make 
the
unique aluminum alloy that Tesla has crafted to make body parts that are
not steel... certainly the availability of lithium is not
good. Nor is it good for cobalt, or nickel... if LiFePO is the future, we do 
not have a ready
supply of phosphate.

I think there is a lot of guesswork being presented to the effect that EVs
are going to be with us soon, en masse.


I agree, Michael. I can't provide anything but anecdotal evidence on any 
of these. I doubt that anyone else can, either. Our society has become 
an extremely complex machine -- so complex that no one can really 
understand it. So all we get are various "blind men" describing their 
view of the "elephant". They get some details right; but miss out on the 
big picture.


Human nature also plays an important role. Let's face it; humans tend to 
be short-term thinkers. When they want something, they want it *now*; 
and will use the most expedient way to get it. Short-term 
quick/easy/cheap solutions may have bad long-term consequences; but they 
don't think about that.


Humans also like things to stay the same. "We've always done it this 
way" is a powerful reason not to change. Things that no longer work 
become habits, and then bad habits.


When people lived in forests, trees seemed inexhaustible; so they cut 
them down for wood. That became the norm; so a huge logging industry ran 
wild until the forests were gone. Only then did they think about 
sustainable logging.


When coal could be dug up in your back yard with a shovel, people burned 
that for fuel. Again, whole industries developed around it, until the 
health and environmental effects became tragically obvious. Only then 
were standards developed to mitigate (but not stop) the damage.


Cars initially burned gasoline not because it was a good choice; but 
because it was a cheap throw-away product. Again, a gigantic industry 
developed around it. Once the environmental harm became obvious, 
emission controls were mandated to mitigate the damage. But people still 
aren't willing to accept the full consequences of our massive use of oil.


Sustainable long-term solutions take time to develop. There will always 
be a few that work on them, to improve and perfect them to eventually 
take over once the bad solutions are exhausted.


So...

I still think that EVs are a path to a solution. But our present EVs are 
using cheap/easy/expedient materials and methods, just like people have 
always done. In their own way, today's EVs are just as crude, dirty, and 
unsustainable as every other "first" technology.


But over time, I think companies will learn. Once they need to make 
millions of EVs a year instead of thousands, they will come to depend on 
recycling and more sustainable environmentally friendly materials. Not 
out of altruism; but out of *necessity*! They will be *forced* to by 
material scarcity, government regulations and public pressure once the 
consequences of their short-sighted thinking become obvious!


Lee
--
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable man
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] Think City noisy heater blower

[Lee Hart via EV]

Paul Wallace via EV wrote:

My 2011 Enerdel Think City heater blower has become quite noisy and vibrates 
the dash when at the higher settings.  Has anyone else had this issue and found 
a solution?

Thanks,
Paul Wallace
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I've had this happen on other cars when sticks or leaves managed to get 
into the blower, throwing it off-balance. This can be anything from easy 
to nearly impossible to fix, depending on how hard it is to get at the 
blower.


Lee

--
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable man
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw
--
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[EVDL] Happy holidays!

[Lee Hart via EV]

To EV fans and fanatics everywhere,

It's Christmas, and I wanted to wish everyone a safe and happy holiday 
season. EVs have come a long way, but still have far to go to reduce our 
dependence on fossil fuels. Despite the "big guys" taking all the 
credit, I don't think we would be where we are today without many of the 
pioneers on the EVDL who proved that it *could* be done!


And I *still* think the pioneering spirit is needed. EVs are 
intrinsically simpler and cheaper than ICEs; yet the automakers have 
chosen to make their EVs even more expensive and complicated than their 
ICEs. That may be the way to make luxury cars to enrich the auto 
companies; but it won't put the world on electric wheels.


The world is still waiting for an affordable electric Beetle, Mini, 2CV, 
or Ford model A. It may be more likely to come from a disruptive new 
startup than an established auto company. Tesla already did that for 
luxury EVs. Who knows... as with the IBM PC, small start-ups could well 
spring up drive out the big boys by building much cheaper "clones".


In the past, I've often written little stories and poems for EVDL 
readers to enjoy. Here are links to a few of them:








Enjoy!
Lee Hart

--
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable man
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw
--
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Re: [EVDL] EV cold weather range

[Lee Hart via EV]

Ed Thorpe wrote:

BTW, how much are ICE cars hit with drop in gas mileage during the winter
month? How come no one complains about that? Or are EVs hit harder in the
cold wintertime?


Yes; EV range is reduced by cold much more than ICEs. A couple data points:

I have a 2010 Chevy Colorado small pickup (successor to the Chevy S10). 
I keep track of its gas mileage. It gets 27-30 mpg in summer, and 22-25 
mpg in Minnesota winters.


Our 2013 Nissan Leaf has a range of about 90 miles in summer, and 50 
miles in winter.


At the moment, it's -10 deg.F here in Minnesota. My son is here for 
Xmas, and borrowed the Leaf. Starting with 100% charged, he turned it on 
for 15 minutes to warm up and melt off the ice/snow, which dropped it to 
92% charged. He ran errands totaling 35 miles, and when he returned 
home, it was essentially at 0% charge.


Lee

--
"#3 pencils and quadrille pads." -- Seymour Cray, when asked
what CAD tools he used to design the Cray I supercomputer
--
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Re: [EVDL] EV cold weather range

[Lee Hart via EV]

Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:

It’s the battery that impacts the range in BEVs. In an ICE, the battery is 
mainly important for starting, with the engine charging the battery.  Sometimes 
you do need a better battery for starting in very extreme weather.


It is important for an EV to provide both heating and cooling for the 
batteries. Batteries like to be at the same temperatures that us humans 
do. If you don't, the range will be significantly worse when cold, and 
life will be significantly less when hot.


This is something I learned long ago! My homebuilt EVs all had insulated 
battery boxes with 1"-2" of styrafoam, and 100-200w electric heaters. 
(I've never lived in a hot climate, so cooling wasn't needed). That was 
enough to keep the batteries warm even in the coldest winters. The 
heater is only powered when parked and plugged in, and the batteries 
have enough thermal mass to stay warm for days without being plugged in.


But automakers still don't seem to have gotten the message. Many EVs 
have little or no insulation for the pack, and barely enough heating and 
cooling to accommodate relatively normal temperatures; not extremes.


Lee

--
"#3 pencils and quadrille pads." -- Seymour Cray, when asked
what CAD tools he used to design the Cray I supercomputer
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] EV cold weather range

[Lee Hart via EV]

Ed Thorpe wrote:

BTW, how much are ICE cars hit with drop in gas mileage during the winter
month? How come no one complains about that? Or are EVs hit harder in the
cold wintertime?


I have a 2010 Chevy Colorado small pickup (successor to the Chevy S10). 
I keep track of its gas mileage. It gets 27-30 mpg in summer, and 22-25 
mpg in Minnesota winters.


Our 2013 Nissan Leaf has a range of about 90 miles in summer, and 50 
miles in winter.


At the moment, it's -10 deg.F here in Minnesota. My son is here for 
Xmas, and borrowed the Leaf. Starting with 100% charged, he turned it on 
for 15 minutes to warm it up and melt off the ice/snow, which dropped it 
to 92% charged. He ran errands totaling 35 miles, and when he returned 
home, it was essentially at 0% charge.


Lee

--
"#3 pencils and quadrille pads." -- Seymour Cray, when asked
what CAD tools he used to design the Cray I supercomputer
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[Lee Hart via EV]

Yes, hate for Musk seems to dominate. Here and elsewhere. Despite his
obvious skills and MANY successes...



My wife is one of those who refuse to consider a Tesla vehicle based
upon his (miss) behavior...


I think this is an example of the logical fallacies that permeate our 
society today. Carl Sagan neatly summarized such fallacies in his book 
"The Demon Haunted World" 



Basically, it's an "Ad hominem" (to the man) argument (attacking the 
man, rather than what he has produced). Musk may be a jerk; but he still 
deserves credit for accomplished great things.


If we disregarded the accomplishments of every flawed individual, we'd 
have ignored the work of Thomas Jefferson (slave owner), Henry Ford 
(anti-semite and Nazi sympathizer), Steve Jobs (arrogant bully), etc.


Lee Hart

--
"Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes. That way, you'll be a 
mile away and have his shoes."

--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] Goodbye old friend.

[Lee Hart via EV]

John Lussmyer via EV wrote:

On 12/11/2022 9:32 AM, Lee Hart via EV wrote:

John Lussmyer via EV wrote:
So you are saying that they should first produce a cheaper very low 
profit margin vehicle - so that they won't have enough cash to grow 
production at a high rate and be able to product a LOT more vehicles?


Henry Ford did. So did VW.

Success can be found by selling a very small number of very expensive 
vehicles... or a very large number of inexpensive vehicles. Which one 
is likely to put the world on (EV) wheels?


So, why isn't the Nissan Leaf outselling Teslas?
It's a low-cost EV.


I don't know the secret formula for success. Apparently, neither does 
Nissan.


But I do think it lies somewhere in what Paul MacCready of Aerovironment 
said when they made the Impact EV for GM. "It wasn't a success because 
we got one thing perfect; it was because we got everything good enough."


I think the problem the automakers have is that they are trying to 
optimize just one thing; and that is profit. Everything else falls by 
the wayside.


Lee
--
"#3 pencils and quadrille pads." -- Seymour Cray, when asked
what CAD tools he used to design the Cray I supercomputer
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] Goodbye old friend.

[Lee Hart via EV]

John Lussmyer via EV wrote:
So you are saying that they should first produce a cheaper very low 
profit margin vehicle - so that they won't have enough cash to grow 
production at a high rate and be able to product a LOT more vehicles?


Henry Ford did. So did VW.

Success can be found by selling a very small number of very expensive 
vehicles... or a very large number of inexpensive vehicles. Which one is 
likely to put the world on (EV) wheels?


Lee
--
"#3 pencils and quadrille pads." -- Seymour Cray, when asked
what CAD tools he used to design the Cray I supercomputer
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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