Re: [EVDL] Range+grip: Leaf EV tires that increase range

[Lee Hart via EV]

Mr. Sharkey via EV wrote:

Bill Egan, not Tom, I realized that as soon as I pressed 'send', but you
can't suck the data back to correct.

Catching tire wear before it shows in the tread is preferable to
learning the hard way, after the rubber is deposited as dust all along
the roadway. Was it here that I read that someone was advocating using a
thermal imager to check the heat in the tires after a run, and adjust
the pressure so that the tire heats (and presumably wears) evenly across
the entire tread footprint?


It might be. I think it's also something that racers routinely do on the 
track.


--
In software development, there are two kinds of error: Conceptual
errors, implementation errors, and off-by-one errors. (anonymous)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Range+grip: Leaf EV tires that increase range

[Mr. Sharkey via EV]

>> William Egan - Retired - Chief Engineer/Team Leader - Goodyear Tire ...

Bill Egan, not Tom, I realized that as soon as I pressed 'send', but 
you can't suck the data back to correct. (if auto-correct is so 
smart, why didn't it catch that?)


Catching tire wear before it shows in the tread is preferable to 
learning the hard way, after the rubber is deposited as dust all 
along the roadway. Was it here that I read that someone was 
advocating using a thermal imager to check the heat in the tires 
after a run, and adjust the pressure so that the tire heats (and 
presumably wears) evenly across the entire tread footprint?


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Re: [EVDL] Range+grip: Leaf EV tires that increase range

[Paul Compton via EV]

Leaf is FWD, I3 is RWD.

On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 at 17:16, Lawrence Rhodes via EV  wrote:
>
> Narrower tires is exactly what I am looking for.  If the i3 which weighs the 
> same as the Leaf can get away with two sets of smaller tires I would like to 
> explore that.  I run my tires at full pressure at all times. 40psi.  I have 
> been told that the i3 uses two sets of tires. 155 in front and 175 in the 
> rear.  The Leaf is 205.  The i3 runs the wider tires in the rear at 44psi.  
> The front less.  Nissan recommends somewhere in the 30's.  I suspect the i3 
> is more efficient than the Leaf partly because of the tire choices.  This is 
> the easiest course to try.  Since the i3 standard is two different sizes and 
> pressures a compromise on the Leaf might be 165 all the way around with full 
> pressure.  Or the 175 all around.  I am sure this would be just fine.  Yes 
> not as much traction but I am not running the Indy 500.  As long as the total 
> weight limit of the tires is at or above the manufacturers recommended gross 
> weight you should be safe. Here is a green car reports on the BMW tire 
> choice. 
 
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1083080_bmw-i3s-tall-skinny-tires-to-boost-efficiency-and-cut-noise
>
>
>
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-- 
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www.paulcompton.co.uk (YouTube channel)
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Re: [EVDL] Range+grip: Leaf EV tires that increase range

[Lee Hart via EV]

Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

  After finding tall skinny tires grip better in the rain thus eliminating that 
concern it appears the heavier Tesla has radically different mpge but similar 
styling to the total winner Ioniq by Hyundai . The light bubble cars did better 
in the city while the Tesla better on the road. In going down the list many 
cars you would think should do well were horrible.  It seems regen braking must 
be part of the equation. I suspect drive trains and aerodynamics can be 
improved on many models.  Lawrence Rhodes

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/PowerSearch.do?action=noform=1=1984=2020=Electric=1=Comb=0=10


Weight matters more at low speeds. Aerodynamics matters more at high 
speeds. This is in part why a heavy aerodynamic car can outperform a 
lightweight but un-aerodynamic car at freeway speeds.


Aerodynamics is a tricky problem. Good shapes are judged as "ugly" by 
most people. So most cars are full of stylistic swoops and ridges for 
looks. The published specs for drag coefficients are often doctored or 
even made up by Marketing.


It's entertaining to read about the battles between AeroVironment and GM 
on the EV1 styling. MacCready was a world-class expert on aerodynamics; 
he knew what he was doing. But GM's stylists hated the looks, and did 
everything they could to "fix" it to suit the eye rather than the wind 
tunnel.


--
In software development, there are two kinds of error: Conceptual
errors, implementation errors, and off-by-one errors. (anonymous)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Range+grip: Leaf EV tires that increase range

[Lee Hart via EV]

Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

The i3 runs the wider tires in the rear at 44psi. The Nissan Leaf
recommends somewhere in the 30's.  I suspect the i3 is more efficient
than the Leaf partly because of the tire choices.


Our 2013 Leaf has 30k miles on it, and I can say for sure that the stock 
tire pressure is too low. The tires are almost worn out, and are 
especially worn at the outside edges -- what you would expect with 
under-inflation. This is despite them only being on for 8 months of the 
year (we have four snow tires on it in the winter).


Nissan recommends 36 psi. The tires are Bridgestone Ecopia, and rated 
for 44 psi max pressure. So this spring I went to 40 psi. That improved 
miles/KWH about 5-10%. The ride is a littler harsher, but there is no 
detectable degradation in handling or wet weather performance.


I should note that the Ecopia's are worthless in snow and ice!

--



In software development, there are two kinds of error: Conceptual
errors, implementation errors, and off-by-one errors. (anonymous)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Range+grip: Leaf EV tires that increase range

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

Narrower tires is exactly what I am looking for.  If the i3 which weighs the 
same as the Leaf can get away with two sets of smaller tires I would like to 
explore that.  I run my tires at full pressure at all times. 40psi.  I have 
been told that the i3 uses two sets of tires. 155 in front and 175 in the rear. 
 The Leaf is 205.  The i3 runs the wider tires in the rear at 44psi.  The front 
less.  Nissan recommends somewhere in the 30's.  I suspect the i3 is more 
efficient than the Leaf partly because of the tire choices.  This is the 
easiest course to try.  Since the i3 standard is two different sizes and 
pressures a compromise on the Leaf might be 165 all the way around with full 
pressure.  Or the 175 all around.  I am sure this would be just fine.  Yes not 
as much traction but I am not running the Indy 500.  As long as the total 
weight limit of the tires is at or above the manufacturers recommended gross 
weight you should be safe. Here is a green car reports on the BMW tire choice. 
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1083080_bmw-i3s-tall-skinny-tires-to-boost-efficiency-and-cut-noise


  
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Re: [EVDL] Range+grip: Leaf EV tires that increase range

[Mr. Sharkey via EV]

>> what size were you looking for on which car model?

The EV is a 1981 VW Rabbit.

I don't know how particular I can be about size. Logic dictates that 
narrow is better for rolling resistance. The car (as manufactured) 
had 155-70R13's on it, but the conversion factory upgraded it to 
5-1/2" wide, 13" rims with 175-70R13's, which is the only size that 
I'm aware of the Invicta GLR's being made in.


The most significant handling upgrade for this chassis is going to 
14" rims, they were stock on the GTI versions of the Rabbit. I 
swapped over to 195-60R14's on my diesel Rabbit on OEM 6" wide rims, 
and it changed the handling of the car from shopping cart to go kart. 
My EV has full race-prep suspension with body stiffening braces 
throughout, urethane bushings, GTI anti-sway bars, Koni shocks, etc, 
although I probably won't be doing any autoX racing, so handling of 
the new tires just needs to manage normal street-duty specs.


Anything over 14" makes these cars look silly, and adversely alters 
the handling. Worse, VW uses hub-centric wheels, so virtually all 
after market wheels and OEM wheels from other manufacturers never 
really run true. Even if I wanted to go to a 15" wheel, finding a 
4x100 lug pattern wheel with the proper hub-centric fit is a lottery 
game, with worse odds.


And really drawing it out, nearly all after market wheels will not 
have the proper ET (offset). The VW strut geometry is designed around 
the offset of the wheel. Changing the offset throws handling out. The 
design is that a line drawn down the vertical axis of the strut to 
the pavement needs to hit the ground outside the center of the tire. 
Wheels with incorrect offset disturb this. In extreme cases, the car 
then attempts to self-correct skids by biasing the steering *out* of 
the skid instead of into it, worsening the danger.


As you might be able to tell, I'm a little particular about messing 
with the German engineering that went into my cars.


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Re: [EVDL] Range+grip: Leaf EV tires that increase range

[Haudy Kazemi via EV]

Mr.Sharky... what size were you looking for on which car model?

As for the Gen 1 Leaf, it comes stock with 16 inch rims (on at least some
model years).

Leaf Gen 1 can accept certain 15 inch rims, which allows you access to
inexpensive highly mass produced 195/65R15 tires. Gen 3 Prius can use the
same tires, so Prius forums are a good place to find additional opinions on
suitable tires. 2003-2014 (and maybe newer) Corollas can also use the same.


On Sun, Jul 21, 2019, 23:02 Mr. Sharkey via EV  wrote:

> I'm going to throw in on this as well. I'm still running on Goodyear
> Invicta GLR's.
>
> The first set I purchased after talking to Tom Egan of Goodyear, who
> recommended pumping them up to 50+ PSI, he had little concern about
> raising the pressure above the sidewall recommendations. My tire
> retailer found a set in Florida, and the shipping was nearly equal to
> the purchase price.
>
> I don't remember how many miles they lasted, but the second set, I
> bought at the Soquel drive-in flea market while vacationing in Santa
> Cruz, CA. They were $70 for the set, brand new and still mounted on
> pristine OEM Honda steel wheels. My girlfriend thought I was nuts,
> but I managed to pack all four of them into the sedan we were
> travelling in, and got our luggage and gear back in there too.
>
> The Invictas are a lot like driving on a hot skillet with ice cubes
> mounted at the end of all four axles, but boy, do they roll!
>
> I'm eyeing this set and wondering about their replacements. It's
> nearly impossible to find LRR tires in the size I need. I'll be
> upgrading to 14" wheels, but that isn't much help, not much is being
> offered in sizes smaller than 16 - 17" these days.I've combed through
> tirerack.com without finding much useful.
>
> Would be great to see this discussion lead to some resources for
> those of us who can't (won't) rock the giant, oversized bling wheels.
>
> A Leaf with an Avanti body? Yes! I couldn't bring myself to be seen
> in a Nissan clown-car!
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Range+grip: Leaf EV tires that increase range

[Mr. Sharkey via EV]

I'm going to throw in on this as well. I'm still running on Goodyear 
Invicta GLR's.


The first set I purchased after talking to Tom Egan of Goodyear, who 
recommended pumping them up to 50+ PSI, he had little concern about 
raising the pressure above the sidewall recommendations. My tire 
retailer found a set in Florida, and the shipping was nearly equal to 
the purchase price.


I don't remember how many miles they lasted, but the second set, I 
bought at the Soquel drive-in flea market while vacationing in Santa 
Cruz, CA. They were $70 for the set, brand new and still mounted on 
pristine OEM Honda steel wheels. My girlfriend thought I was nuts, 
but I managed to pack all four of them into the sedan we were 
travelling in, and got our luggage and gear back in there too.


The Invictas are a lot like driving on a hot skillet with ice cubes 
mounted at the end of all four axles, but boy, do they roll!


I'm eyeing this set and wondering about their replacements. It's 
nearly impossible to find LRR tires in the size I need. I'll be 
upgrading to 14" wheels, but that isn't much help, not much is being 
offered in sizes smaller than 16 - 17" these days.I've combed through 
tirerack.com without finding much useful.


Would be great to see this discussion lead to some resources for 
those of us who can't (won't) rock the giant, oversized bling wheels.


A Leaf with an Avanti body? Yes! I couldn't bring myself to be seen 
in a Nissan clown-car!


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Re: [EVDL] Range+grip: Leaf EV tires that increase range

[Cor van de Water via EV]

I received my 2002 Prius, which I bought in 2004 w front end damage, but
that is another story, at 12k mi and indeed already half-worn tire edges
from running 32 PSI all around.
I pumped them to 45-47 PSI and then they started wearing evenly, so
somewhere around 36k I needed new tires.
Note that these tires had max inflation pressure of 51 PSI, so no problem
with that pressure.
Cor

On Sun, Jul 21, 2019, 4:01 PM Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> brucedp5 via EV wrote:
> > Let's keep in mind that in the north & north-east states.us have similar
> > cold  weather like Canada. Changing a vehicle's tires for a half a
> year
> > for bad/challenging weather is par/the-norm.
>
> Right on, Bruce. That's what we do here in MN, too. Those who try to get
> by on summer or "all season" tires had better keep up on their AAA
> membership.
>
> > Cor is right that Lawrence posted about switching to a (less-grip)
> narrower
> > tire, which he may use at a higher than normal tire pressure to maximize
> his
> > Leaf EV range.
> > I purposely ignored that, since IMO it would be out of spec/less-safe for
> > Lawrence to do that.
>
> This may not be entirely correct. Wide tires have more grip on dry
> pavement; but I think narrower tires are better on wet. Wide tires are
> more inclined to hydroplane.
>
> On tire pressures: The Leaf (and several other EVs and hybrids) are
> factory-spec'd with higher than normal tire pressures. For years, I've
> had problems with dealers and service centers blindly using 32 psi, no
> matter what the sticker says, or what I tell them. If you let them get
> away with this, you'll be "rewarded" by faster tire wear and higher
> rolling resistance.
>
> The best tire pressure is also not automatically what it says on the
> door sticker. That's just a "rule of thumb". It depends on the specific
> tire, how much load you have in the vehicle, and other factors. For
> example, our 2001 Prius said to inflate the tires to 35/33 psi
> front/rear. But if you actually ran at that pressure, the handling was
> poor, and the tires would scrub off the outer edges and wear out in
> under 20k miles! The car came with special low rolling resistance
> high-pressure tires, and the correct pressure was more like 42/20 psi.
> (Toyota admitted their mistake, and gave owners free tires and raised
> the pressure spec).
>
> > While my physical body does not fit well in the Leaf, and I feel its
> looks
> > could be improved...
>
> Well, there was the link you posted to someone who replaced the body of
> the Leaf with one from a Studebaker Avanti! :-)
>
> --
> In software development, there are two kinds of error: Conceptual
> errors, implementation errors, and off-by-one errors. (anonymous)
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Range+grip: Leaf EV tires that increase range

[Lee Hart via EV]

brucedp5 via EV wrote:

Let's keep in mind that in the north & north-east states.us have similar
cold  weather like Canada. Changing a vehicle's tires for a half a year
for bad/challenging weather is par/the-norm.


Right on, Bruce. That's what we do here in MN, too. Those who try to get 
by on summer or "all season" tires had better keep up on their AAA 
membership.



Cor is right that Lawrence posted about switching to a (less-grip) narrower
tire, which he may use at a higher than normal tire pressure to maximize his
Leaf EV range.
I purposely ignored that, since IMO it would be out of spec/less-safe for
Lawrence to do that.


This may not be entirely correct. Wide tires have more grip on dry 
pavement; but I think narrower tires are better on wet. Wide tires are 
more inclined to hydroplane.


On tire pressures: The Leaf (and several other EVs and hybrids) are 
factory-spec'd with higher than normal tire pressures. For years, I've 
had problems with dealers and service centers blindly using 32 psi, no 
matter what the sticker says, or what I tell them. If you let them get 
away with this, you'll be "rewarded" by faster tire wear and higher 
rolling resistance.


The best tire pressure is also not automatically what it says on the 
door sticker. That's just a "rule of thumb". It depends on the specific 
tire, how much load you have in the vehicle, and other factors. For 
example, our 2001 Prius said to inflate the tires to 35/33 psi 
front/rear. But if you actually ran at that pressure, the handling was 
poor, and the tires would scrub off the outer edges and wear out in 
under 20k miles! The car came with special low rolling resistance 
high-pressure tires, and the correct pressure was more like 42/20 psi. 
(Toyota admitted their mistake, and gave owners free tires and raised 
the pressure spec).



While my physical body does not fit well in the Leaf, and I feel its looks
could be improved...


Well, there was the link you posted to someone who replaced the body of 
the Leaf with one from a Studebaker Avanti! :-)


--
In software development, there are two kinds of error: Conceptual
errors, implementation errors, and off-by-one errors. (anonymous)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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