Re: [EVDL] DIY EV air conditioning? 3 phase motors

[Joe via EV]

The 04-09 prius a/c compressors have no electronics in them, just the motor
and compressor.  There are 3 shielded orange wires coming out, one for each
phase of the motor.  The controller itself is somewhere on the main drive
controller - i think it shares the cold plate.

The 2010 and later models have the controller built into the a/c compressor
- much like the motor windings use the cool incoming refrigerant for
cooling, the controller probably does as well.  I've never actually seen
one of these compressors, so I can only speculate what connections it has
(B+, B- and canbus?).

It would be interesting to try to sniff the canbus messages and see what
commands are sent to the compressor, then try to get one running by itself.


I felt there were more unknowns with the latest model compressor, so I went
the other route and built a controller for the 04-09 prius compressor.
 Joe,
Can you specify the electrical interface (which wire is what)
on the Prius A/C compressor module?

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info
www.proxim.com


This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]
<http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=4676196&i=0>] On Behalf Of Joe
via EV
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2015 12:10 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DIY EV air conditioning? 3 phase motors

Just some info on the 2nd gen prius a/c compressors that I've either read
about or figured out from playing with them:

They're 6 pole motors, so 3 electrical cycles per one physical cycle.  I've
seen specs that say max speed is 6000 rpm (100 Hz), so that'd be 300 Hz
output from the inverter.  I did see another document that said up to 7500
rpm.

With my 144v nominal pack that rests close to 150V, max speed under load on
hot days is about 4000 rpm.  I've read that the prius pack voltage is
around 200V, so maybe the 6000 rpm max speed is correct.

The motor is also highly salient - that is, it's inductance is much higher
in the q-axis (if i remember right).  Reluctance torque can be generated
with current along the d-axis and increase the overall torque per amp.

The motor can run open loop - in fact, I do this in order to ramp the motor
up to a minimum speed before the sensorless position algorithm takes over.
But, running open loop will limit the max speed and decrease the torque per
amp and overall efficiency.

On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 8:45 AM, Lee Hart via EV <[hidden email]
<http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=4676196&i=1>> wrote:

> Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
>
>> 3 phase 60 Hz AC synchronous motors seem to start and run just fine
>> on fixed 60 Hz frequency, why does one need to ramp up and have
>> precise feedback of rotor position therefore frequency and phase to
>> make a DC controller?
>>
>
> Synchronous motors are rare on fixed 60Hz AC because they are hard to
> start; and draw excessive current while trying to start.
>
> When you try to start it, the rotor tries to *instantly* move to the
> shaft angle that corresponds to the phase of the applied AC at that
> instant. To jump instantly from 0 to synchronous speed would require
> *infinite* torque
> (0 to 60 in 0 seconds)! And that would require infinite current! Not
> gonna happen.
>
> Of course, it can't draw infinite current; but starting current will
> be very high. The torque will be correspondingly high; but is often
> still not enough to jump the rotor from a dead stop up to synchronous
> speed in a single cycle. The motor might lurch forward; or even
> *backward* (if that happened to be the closest direction to make shaft
> position and AC waveforms match). Or just sit there and vibrate, trying
in vain to "catch"
> one of the cars in that train of rapidly passing AC sinewaves.
>
> Also, once running, the synchronous motor needs to be wound so its
> back EMF at synchronous RPM just happens to be the AC supply voltage.
> If the supply voltage is high, the motor still runs but has a lagging
> power factor. If the supply voltage is low, it has a leading power
> factor. Both of these lead to increased I2R losses and thus poorer
efficiency.
>
> Most fixed 60Hz AC synchronous motors are modified to reduce these
> problem. Synchronous-hysteresis motors have no permanent magnets; but
> use a "hard" magnetic rotor material that self-magnetizes once it's
> running (and de-magnetizes when it stops). Synchronous

Re: [EVDL] DIY EV air conditioning? 3 phase motors

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Joe,
Can you specify the electrical interface (which wire is what)
on the Prius A/C compressor module?

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626  Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130  private: cvandewater.info
www.proxim.com


This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this 
message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is 
prohibited.


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Joe via EV
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2015 12:10 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DIY EV air conditioning? 3 phase motors

Just some info on the 2nd gen prius a/c compressors that I've either read about 
or figured out from playing with them:

They're 6 pole motors, so 3 electrical cycles per one physical cycle.  I've 
seen specs that say max speed is 6000 rpm (100 Hz), so that'd be 300 Hz output 
from the inverter.  I did see another document that said up to 7500 rpm.

With my 144v nominal pack that rests close to 150V, max speed under load on hot 
days is about 4000 rpm.  I've read that the prius pack voltage is around 200V, 
so maybe the 6000 rpm max speed is correct.

The motor is also highly salient - that is, it's inductance is much higher in 
the q-axis (if i remember right).  Reluctance torque can be generated with 
current along the d-axis and increase the overall torque per amp.

The motor can run open loop - in fact, I do this in order to ramp the motor up 
to a minimum speed before the sensorless position algorithm takes over.
But, running open loop will limit the max speed and decrease the torque per amp 
and overall efficiency.

On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 8:45 AM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
>
>> 3 phase 60 Hz AC synchronous motors seem to start and run just fine 
>> on fixed 60 Hz frequency, why does one need to ramp up and have 
>> precise feedback of rotor position therefore frequency and phase to 
>> make a DC controller?
>>
>
> Synchronous motors are rare on fixed 60Hz AC because they are hard to 
> start; and draw excessive current while trying to start.
>
> When you try to start it, the rotor tries to *instantly* move to the 
> shaft angle that corresponds to the phase of the applied AC at that 
> instant. To jump instantly from 0 to synchronous speed would require 
> *infinite* torque
> (0 to 60 in 0 seconds)! And that would require infinite current! Not 
> gonna happen.
>
> Of course, it can't draw infinite current; but starting current will 
> be very high. The torque will be correspondingly high; but is often 
> still not enough to jump the rotor from a dead stop up to synchronous 
> speed in a single cycle. The motor might lurch forward; or even 
> *backward* (if that happened to be the closest direction to make shaft 
> position and AC waveforms match). Or just sit there and vibrate, trying in 
> vain to "catch"
> one of the cars in that train of rapidly passing AC sinewaves.
>
> Also, once running, the synchronous motor needs to be wound so its 
> back EMF at synchronous RPM just happens to be the AC supply voltage. 
> If the supply voltage is high, the motor still runs but has a lagging 
> power factor. If the supply voltage is low, it has a leading power 
> factor. Both of these lead to increased I2R losses and thus poorer efficiency.
>
> Most fixed 60Hz AC synchronous motors are modified to reduce these 
> problem. Synchronous-hysteresis motors have no permanent magnets; but 
> use a "hard" magnetic rotor material that self-magnetizes once it's 
> running (and de-magnetizes when it stops). Synchronous-induction 
> motors "bury" the magnets inside a conventional induction rotor that 
> is used to start the motor. Or a wound-rotor synchronous motor, with 
> slip rings so the field can be controlled externally.
>
> That said... I do think there is hope for driving a true synchronous 
> motor with a simple square-wave DC inverter within limits. It will 
> mainly be hard to start, and you won't get peak efficiency.
>
> --
> The greatest pleasure in life is to create something that wasn't there 
> before. -- Roy Spence
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
>
> ___
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> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
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Re: [EVDL] DIY EV air conditioning? 3 phase motors

[Joe via EV]

Just some info on the 2nd gen prius a/c compressors that I've either read
about or figured out from playing with them:

They're 6 pole motors, so 3 electrical cycles per one physical cycle.  I've
seen specs that say max speed is 6000 rpm (100 Hz), so that'd be 300 Hz
output from the inverter.  I did see another document that said up to 7500
rpm.

With my 144v nominal pack that rests close to 150V, max speed under load on
hot days is about 4000 rpm.  I've read that the prius pack voltage is
around 200V, so maybe the 6000 rpm max speed is correct.

The motor is also highly salient - that is, it's inductance is much higher
in the q-axis (if i remember right).  Reluctance torque can be generated
with current along the d-axis and increase the overall torque per amp.

The motor can run open loop - in fact, I do this in order to ramp the motor
up to a minimum speed before the sensorless position algorithm takes over.
But, running open loop will limit the max speed and decrease the torque per
amp and overall efficiency.

On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 8:45 AM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
>
>> 3 phase 60 Hz AC synchronous motors seem to start and run just fine
>> on fixed 60 Hz frequency, why does one need to ramp up and have precise
>> feedback of rotor position therefore frequency and phase to make a
>> DC controller?
>>
>
> Synchronous motors are rare on fixed 60Hz AC because they are hard to
> start; and draw excessive current while trying to start.
>
> When you try to start it, the rotor tries to *instantly* move to the shaft
> angle that corresponds to the phase of the applied AC at that instant. To
> jump instantly from 0 to synchronous speed would require *infinite* torque
> (0 to 60 in 0 seconds)! And that would require infinite current! Not gonna
> happen.
>
> Of course, it can't draw infinite current; but starting current will be
> very high. The torque will be correspondingly high; but is often still not
> enough to jump the rotor from a dead stop up to synchronous speed in a
> single cycle. The motor might lurch forward; or even *backward* (if that
> happened to be the closest direction to make shaft position and AC
> waveforms match). Or just sit there and vibrate, trying in vain to "catch"
> one of the cars in that train of rapidly passing AC sinewaves.
>
> Also, once running, the synchronous motor needs to be wound so its back
> EMF at synchronous RPM just happens to be the AC supply voltage. If the
> supply voltage is high, the motor still runs but has a lagging power
> factor. If the supply voltage is low, it has a leading power factor. Both
> of these lead to increased I2R losses and thus poorer efficiency.
>
> Most fixed 60Hz AC synchronous motors are modified to reduce these
> problem. Synchronous-hysteresis motors have no permanent magnets; but use a
> "hard" magnetic rotor material that self-magnetizes once it's running (and
> de-magnetizes when it stops). Synchronous-induction motors "bury" the
> magnets inside a conventional induction rotor that is used to start the
> motor. Or a wound-rotor synchronous motor, with slip rings so the field can
> be controlled externally.
>
> That said... I do think there is hope for driving a true synchronous motor
> with a simple square-wave DC inverter within limits. It will mainly be hard
> to start, and you won't get peak efficiency.
>
> --
> The greatest pleasure in life is to create something that wasn't
> there before. -- Roy Spence
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
>
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] DIY EV air conditioning? 3 phase motors

[Lee Hart via EV]

Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

3 phase 60 Hz AC synchronous motors seem to start and run just fine
on fixed 60 Hz frequency, why does one need to ramp up and have precise
feedback of rotor position therefore frequency and phase to make a
DC controller?


Synchronous motors are rare on fixed 60Hz AC because they are hard to 
start; and draw excessive current while trying to start.


When you try to start it, the rotor tries to *instantly* move to the 
shaft angle that corresponds to the phase of the applied AC at that 
instant. To jump instantly from 0 to synchronous speed would require 
*infinite* torque (0 to 60 in 0 seconds)! And that would require 
infinite current! Not gonna happen.


Of course, it can't draw infinite current; but starting current will be 
very high. The torque will be correspondingly high; but is often still 
not enough to jump the rotor from a dead stop up to synchronous speed in 
a single cycle. The motor might lurch forward; or even *backward* (if 
that happened to be the closest direction to make shaft position and AC 
waveforms match). Or just sit there and vibrate, trying in vain to 
"catch" one of the cars in that train of rapidly passing AC sinewaves.


Also, once running, the synchronous motor needs to be wound so its back 
EMF at synchronous RPM just happens to be the AC supply voltage. If the 
supply voltage is high, the motor still runs but has a lagging power 
factor. If the supply voltage is low, it has a leading power factor. 
Both of these lead to increased I2R losses and thus poorer efficiency.


Most fixed 60Hz AC synchronous motors are modified to reduce these 
problem. Synchronous-hysteresis motors have no permanent magnets; but 
use a "hard" magnetic rotor material that self-magnetizes once it's 
running (and de-magnetizes when it stops). Synchronous-induction motors 
"bury" the magnets inside a conventional induction rotor that is used to 
start the motor. Or a wound-rotor synchronous motor, with slip rings so 
the field can be controlled externally.


That said... I do think there is hope for driving a true synchronous 
motor with a simple square-wave DC inverter within limits. It will 
mainly be hard to start, and you won't get peak efficiency.


--
The greatest pleasure in life is to create something that wasn't
there before. -- Roy Spence
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] DIY EV air conditioning? 3 phase motors

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Sorry to ask a really dumb question, but 3 phase 60 Hz AC synchronous
motors seem to start and run just fine on fixd 60 Hz frequency, why does
one need to ramp up and have precise feeback of rotator postion therefore
frequency and phase to make a D C controller?  Of course, the anwer is
efficiency, precise engine control and so forth, plus to preserve starting
torque Which is of course HUGE in an AC compressor motor.

But ignoring all these must haves,... if one just hit an unloaded 3 phase
motor with DC derived 3 phase sinusoids, would it not just run?  So is it
just the need for starting torque that is the big reason why one needs the
complexity of rotoro feedback?

No, challenging anything, just looking for a simply layman's overview of
the need.

Thanks
Bob


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Bill Dube via EV
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 5:08 PM
To: Joe; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DIY EV air conditioning?

Did realize the Prius was permanent magnet. The TECO VFD might not work at
all driving a PM. :-( Other OEM EV compressors might not be PM.
Residential HVAC compressors are definitely not PM, but they tend to be
rather bulky.

Bill D.


On 6/11/2015 11:54 AM, Joe via EV wrote:
> Regarding an off-the-shelf VFD for a prius compressor, it would have
> to be one that can control permanent magnet synchronous motors with
> interior magnets.  The TECO drive linked appears to only work in
> sensorless mode for induction motors.  Open loop V/f would probably
> make a prius compressor spin, but probably not very efficiently or
effectively at high power.
>
> Also, I've measured up to 1500W (2 HP) drawn by the prius compressor
> on a 100F day with the fan on high, so the drive would have to be
> sized accordingly.  Looks like the 2 and 3 HP versions of the TECO
> drive aren't much more expensive, though.  One of those drives might
> work with a residential hvac compressor.
>
> Also, I forgot about masterflux drives and compressors.  They're
> expensive, but I think they work well based on some posts on
diyelectriccar.
>
> On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 7:03 AM, Bill Dube via EV 
wrote:
>
>> "Hacking" some OEM EV air conditionaing, like from a Prius, is likely
>> the best option. There are also inverter driven (VFD) home
>> compressors that would likely work as well, but aren't as rugged as
>> the OEM EV air conditioning compressors.
>>
>> I would investigate small, single phase input, three phase output,
>> variable frequency drives (VFD) instead of building my own inverter
>> from scratch. Like a TECO:
>>
>> http://www.surpluscenter.com/Electric-Motors/3-Phase-Motors/Variable-
>> Frequency-Drives/1-HP-TECO-VFD-115-VAC-1PH-INPUT-3PH-OUTPUT-11-3424.a
>> xd Likely will run nicely from DC. Certainly cheap to try.
>>
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Re: [EVDL] DIY EV air conditioning?

[Chris Tromley via EV]

You would need 12k BTU if you were cooling the whole cabin, but I'm talking
about cooling individual passengers.  With conduction, not convection.
Whole different ballgame.  The concept must have some merit, or seat
heaters wouldn't be commonplace.  Besides astronauts and pilots, cooled
seats and/or vests are also used for race car drivers.

Chris

On Jun 11, 2015 10:03 AM, "Bill Dube"  wrote:
>
> You would need a lot of ice, hundreds of pounds, to provide the
refrigeration needed.
> 12,000 BTU/hr is the rating of a typical car air conditioning unit. This
is literally equivalent to one ton (2000 lbs) of ice per day.
>
> "Hacking" some OEM EV air conditionaing, like from a Prius, is likely the
best option. There are also inverter driven (VFD) home compressors that
would likely work as well, but aren't as rugged as the OEM EV air
conditioning compressors.
>
> I would investigate small, single phase input, three phase output,
variable frequency drives (VFD) instead of building my own inverter from
scratch. Like a TECO:
>
http://www.surpluscenter.com/Electric-Motors/3-Phase-Motors/Variable-Frequency-Drives/1-HP-TECO-VFD-115-VAC-1PH-INPUT-3PH-OUTPUT-11-3424.axd
> Likely will run nicely from DC. Certainly cheap to try.
>
> Bill D.
>
>
>
>
> On 6/11/2015 6:35 AM, Chris Tromley via EV wrote:
>>
>> If A/C demands aren't great, I've wondered if you could get away with a
>> cooler, some ice packs, some water to carry the "cold" and a circulation
>> pump to run the water through a tubing network installed in a seat cover.
>> I know it sounds crude, but that's how NASA cools astronauts.  Almost all
>> the energy would come from the freezer that chills the ice packs.  Could
be
>> inconvenient, but if the car is for commuting, just throw ice packs in
the
>> fridge at work.
>>
>> Chris
>> On Jun 10, 2015 5:44 PM, "Ben Goren via EV"  wrote:
>>
>>> So, I can imagine all sorts of ways that one might run air conditioning
in
>>> an electric vehicle, but I'm sure others have actually tried and done
>>> different ways and likely figured out the best general approach.
>>>
>>> Any of those others reading these words and care to point me in a good
>>> direction?
>>>
>>> This'll be starting from scratch in a vehicle that never had air
>>> conditioning in the first place but for which both factory and
aftermarket
>>> air conditioning systems are available that run off of a pulley on the
ICE
>>> engine.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> b&
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>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>>
>>>
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[EVDL] DIY EV air conditioning?

[Jan Steinman via EV]

Phoenix?

What about a swamp cooler? They are extremely low power, for the amount of 
cooling you get. They won't work in Atlanta, but Phoenix would be ideal!

I have one, new in box, designed for cooling tractor-trailer cabs. I got it for 
Veggie Van Gogh (http://www.VeggieVanGogh.com) but never got around to 
installing it.

It would seem to be easy to home-brew. You just need some furnace filters (or 
other media), a way to pump water over them, and a fan.

I think the one I bought only uses about ten amps of 12 VDC, and with low 
humidity, provides the equivalent of a ton of conventional AC, which would be 
3.5 kW you're not sucking from your traction battery.

 The word "genius" isn't applicable in football. A genius is a guy like 
Norman Einstein. -- Joe Theisman
 Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op 

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Re: [EVDL] DIY EV air conditioning?

[Thos True via EV]

I recall seeing a few seat covers over the past couple of decades that used
the 12v plug in the do both heating and cooling. most were less than $250,
if I recall.

-Tom

On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 2:44 PM, Ben Goren via EV  wrote:

> So, I can imagine all sorts of ways that one might run air conditioning in
> an electric vehicle, but I'm sure others have actually tried and done
> different ways and likely figured out the best general approach.
>
> Any of those others reading these words and care to point me in a good
> direction?
>
> This'll be starting from scratch in a vehicle that never had air
> conditioning in the first place but for which both factory and aftermarket
> air conditioning systems are available that run off of a pulley on the ICE
> engine.
>
> Thanks,
>
> b&
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>


-- 
Remember, it is not that the glass is half empty, in reality, the glass is
merely twice the size that it needs to be! -TNT'82
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Re: [EVDL] DIY EV air conditioning?

[Peter Thompson via EV]

Hi Chris, 

There are a lot of products like that for general aviation. Very useful for 
taxiing on hot Tarmac. :)

Cheers, Peter 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 11, 2015, at 21:35, Chris Tromley via EV  wrote:
> 
> If A/C demands aren't great, I've wondered if you could get away with a
> cooler, some ice packs, some water to carry the "cold" and a circulation
> pump to run the water through a tubing network installed in a seat cover.
> I know it sounds crude, but that's how NASA cools astronauts.  Almost all
> the energy would come from the freezer that chills the ice packs.  Could be
> inconvenient, but if the car is for commuting, just throw ice packs in the
> fridge at work.
> 
> Chris
>> On Jun 10, 2015 5:44 PM, "Ben Goren via EV"  wrote:
>> 
>> So, I can imagine all sorts of ways that one might run air conditioning in
>> an electric vehicle, but I'm sure others have actually tried and done
>> different ways and likely figured out the best general approach.
>> 
>> Any of those others reading these words and care to point me in a good
>> direction?
>> 
>> This'll be starting from scratch in a vehicle that never had air
>> conditioning in the first place but for which both factory and aftermarket
>> air conditioning systems are available that run off of a pulley on the ICE
>> engine.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> b&
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>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
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>> 
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Re: [EVDL] DIY EV air conditioning?

[Roland via EV]

   
It is only the kinetic energy of the motor free wheeling during coast down on 
long down hill runs.  I also run a rotating 7kw inverter alternator off the 
motor pilot shaft that provides both 120 vac 60 hz for the electric cab heaters 
and charges a 12 volt deep cycle 135 ah battery at the same time.  

 

This installation prevent the EV from going down a long icy hill side ways 
which I did one time back then.  

 

Like Cor said, it saves a trip to the main battery which would use this energy 
using DC to DC converters or inverter back to the accessories.  I use it 
directly to the accessories. 

 

If I turn on three heater units, this REGEN energy will actually stop the EV on 
a down hill run.  

 

Roland  


- Original Message - 

From: Cor van de Water via EV<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org> 

To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org> 

Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 2:49 PM

Subject: Re: [EVDL] DIY EV air conditioning?



Ben,
Roland is running his A/C as "regenative braking" so he does not use battery 
power - some of the time.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info
www.proxim.com<http://www.proxim.com/>


This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received this 
message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any unauthorized use, 
disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is prohibited.


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ben Goren via EV
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 1:33 PM
To: Roland; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DIY EV air conditioning?

I'm not sure I follow by "not use battery power."

Do you mean that you don't have any high voltage connection to the A/C unit, 
and use a purely mechanical connection between it and the vehicle's main 
traction motor? That would still be battery power, of course, but indirectly

b&

On Jun 11, 2015, at 7:34 AM, Roland via EV 
mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org>> wrote:

> 
> One more thing to add to the A/C driving off the motor pilot shaft.  I do not 
> use battery power to drive the motor at the same time the A/C comes on or 
> even when the electric heaters come on.  How do I do this?   This is how:
> 
> 
> 
> A A/C or electric heater does not run all the time.  In a A/C system there is 
> a High Pressure and Low Pressure Switches.  In a heater there are also high 
> temperature limit switches.
> 
> 
> 
> The on dash switch controls a A/C relay which is also control by the high and 
> low pressure switches.  Even if you turn on the dash A/C switch, the A/C pump 
> may not engaged because the pressure may be up and the low pressure switch is 
> not turn on which controls the A/C pump electric clutch.
> 
> 
> 
> Only the blower fans come on when you turn on the A/C or Heater control 
> switches.
> 
> 
> 
> So as to prevent either the heater or A/C to operate, I install or use a 
> limit switch that comes with the Curtis 5K accelerator control.  The dash A/C 
> and or Heater control circuit is control by this limit switch.  When I 
> depress the accelerator pedal, the limit switch turns off the A/C or Heater 
> control circuits and when I let up on the accelerator, it turns these 
> circuits back on.
> 
> 
> 
> In the A/C system, many times it does not effect the A/C cooling, because the 
> A/C pump may be up to pressure and the clutch is disengaged anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> So far since installing this control system in 1980, I never had these units 
> run by the main battery power, except for testing only.
> 
> 
> 
> Roland
> 
> 
> - Original Message -
> 
> From: Bill Dube via EV<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org>>
> 
> To: Chris Tromley<mailto:ctrom...@gmail.com<mailto:ctrom...@gmail.com>> ; 
> Electric Vehicle 
> Discussion List<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org>>
> 
> Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 8:03 AM
> 
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] DIY EV air conditioning?
> 
> 
> 
> You would need a lot of ice, hundreds of pounds, to provide the 
> refrigeration needed.
> 12,000 BTU/hr is the rating of a typical car air conditioning unit. 
> This is literally equivalent to one ton (2000 lbs) of ice per day.
> 
> "Hacking" some OEM EV air conditionaing, like from a Prius, is likely 
> the best option. There are also inverter driven (VFD) home compressors 
> that would likely work as well, but aren't as rugged as the OEM EV air 
> conditioning compressors.
> 
> I would investigate small,

Re: [EVDL] DIY EV air conditioning?

[Bill Dube via EV]

Did realize the Prius was permanent magnet. The TECO VFD might not work 
at all driving a PM. :-(
Other OEM EV compressors might not be PM. Residential HVAC compressors 
are definitely not PM, but they tend to be rather bulky.


Bill D.


On 6/11/2015 11:54 AM, Joe via EV wrote:

Regarding an off-the-shelf VFD for a prius compressor, it would have to be
one that can control permanent magnet synchronous motors with interior
magnets.  The TECO drive linked appears to only work in sensorless mode for
induction motors.  Open loop V/f would probably make a prius compressor
spin, but probably not very efficiently or effectively at high power.

Also, I've measured up to 1500W (2 HP) drawn by the prius compressor on a
100F day with the fan on high, so the drive would have to be sized
accordingly.  Looks like the 2 and 3 HP versions of the TECO drive aren't
much more expensive, though.  One of those drives might work with a
residential hvac compressor.

Also, I forgot about masterflux drives and compressors.  They're expensive,
but I think they work well based on some posts on diyelectriccar.

On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 7:03 AM, Bill Dube via EV  wrote:


"Hacking" some OEM EV air conditionaing, like from a Prius, is likely the
best option. There are also inverter driven (VFD) home compressors that
would likely work as well, but aren't as rugged as the OEM EV air
conditioning compressors.

I would investigate small, single phase input, three phase output,
variable frequency drives (VFD) instead of building my own inverter from
scratch. Like a TECO:

http://www.surpluscenter.com/Electric-Motors/3-Phase-Motors/Variable-Frequency-Drives/1-HP-TECO-VFD-115-VAC-1PH-INPUT-3PH-OUTPUT-11-3424.axd
Likely will run nicely from DC. Certainly cheap to try.


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Re: [EVDL] DIY EV air conditioning?

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Ben,
Roland is running his A/C as "regenative braking" so he does not use battery 
power - some of the time.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626  Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130  private: cvandewater.info
www.proxim.com


This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this 
message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is 
prohibited.


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ben Goren via EV
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 1:33 PM
To: Roland; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DIY EV air conditioning?

I'm not sure I follow by "not use battery power."

Do you mean that you don't have any high voltage connection to the A/C unit, 
and use a purely mechanical connection between it and the vehicle's main 
traction motor? That would still be battery power, of course, but indirectly

b&

On Jun 11, 2015, at 7:34 AM, Roland via EV  wrote:

> 
> One more thing to add to the A/C driving off the motor pilot shaft.  I do not 
> use battery power to drive the motor at the same time the A/C comes on or 
> even when the electric heaters come on.  How do I do this?   This is how:
> 
> 
> 
> A A/C or electric heater does not run all the time.  In a A/C system there is 
> a High Pressure and Low Pressure Switches.  In a heater there are also high 
> temperature limit switches.
> 
> 
> 
> The on dash switch controls a A/C relay which is also control by the high and 
> low pressure switches.  Even if you turn on the dash A/C switch, the A/C pump 
> may not engaged because the pressure may be up and the low pressure switch is 
> not turn on which controls the A/C pump electric clutch.
> 
> 
> 
> Only the blower fans come on when you turn on the A/C or Heater control 
> switches.
> 
> 
> 
> So as to prevent either the heater or A/C to operate, I install or use a 
> limit switch that comes with the Curtis 5K accelerator control.  The dash A/C 
> and or Heater control circuit is control by this limit switch.  When I 
> depress the accelerator pedal, the limit switch turns off the A/C or Heater 
> control circuits and when I let up on the accelerator, it turns these 
> circuits back on.
> 
> 
> 
> In the A/C system, many times it does not effect the A/C cooling, because the 
> A/C pump may be up to pressure and the clutch is disengaged anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> So far since installing this control system in 1980, I never had these units 
> run by the main battery power, except for testing only.
> 
> 
> 
> Roland
> 
> 
> - Original Message -
> 
> From: Bill Dube via EV<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org>
> 
> To: Chris Tromley<mailto:ctrom...@gmail.com> ; Electric Vehicle 
> Discussion List<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org>
> 
> Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 8:03 AM
> 
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] DIY EV air conditioning?
> 
> 
> 
> You would need a lot of ice, hundreds of pounds, to provide the 
> refrigeration needed.
> 12,000 BTU/hr is the rating of a typical car air conditioning unit. 
> This is literally equivalent to one ton (2000 lbs) of ice per day.
> 
> "Hacking" some OEM EV air conditionaing, like from a Prius, is likely 
> the best option. There are also inverter driven (VFD) home compressors 
> that would likely work as well, but aren't as rugged as the OEM EV air 
> conditioning compressors.
> 
> I would investigate small, single phase input, three phase output, 
> variable frequency drives (VFD) instead of building my own inverter 
> from scratch. Like a TECO:
> http://www.surpluscenter.com/Electric-Motors/3-Phase-Motors/Variable-F
> requency-Drives/1-HP-TECO-VFD-115-VAC-1PH-INPUT-3PH-OUTPUT-11-3424.axd
> <http://www.surpluscenter.com/Electric-Motors/3-Phase-Motors/Variable-
> Frequency-Drives/1-HP-TECO-VFD-115-VAC-1PH-INPUT-3PH-OUTPUT-11-3424.ax
> d>
> 
> Likely will run nicely from DC. Certainly cheap to try.
> 
> Bill D.
> 
> 
> 
> On 6/11/2015 6:35 AM, Chris Tromley via EV wrote:
>> If A/C demands aren't great, I've wondered if you could get away with 
>> a cooler, some ice packs, some water to carry the "cold" and a 
>> circulation pump to run the water through a tubing network installed in a 
>> seat cover.
>> I know it sounds crude, but that's how NASA cools astronauts.  Almost 
>> all the energy would come from the freezer that chills the ice packs.  
>> Could be inconvenient, but if the car is for commutin

Re: [EVDL] DIY EV air conditioning?

[Ben Goren via EV]

I'm not sure I follow by "not use battery power."

Do you mean that you don't have any high voltage connection to the A/C unit, 
and use a purely mechanical connection between it and the vehicle's main 
traction motor? That would still be battery power, of course, but indirectly

b&

On Jun 11, 2015, at 7:34 AM, Roland via EV  wrote:

> 
> One more thing to add to the A/C driving off the motor pilot shaft.  I do not 
> use battery power to drive the motor at the same time the A/C comes on or 
> even when the electric heaters come on.  How do I do this?   This is how:
> 
> 
> 
> A A/C or electric heater does not run all the time.  In a A/C system there is 
> a High Pressure and Low Pressure Switches.  In a heater there are also high 
> temperature limit switches.
> 
> 
> 
> The on dash switch controls a A/C relay which is also control by the high and 
> low pressure switches.  Even if you turn on the dash A/C switch, the A/C pump 
> may not engaged because the pressure may be up and the low pressure switch is 
> not turn on which controls the A/C pump electric clutch.
> 
> 
> 
> Only the blower fans come on when you turn on the A/C or Heater control 
> switches.
> 
> 
> 
> So as to prevent either the heater or A/C to operate, I install or use a 
> limit switch that comes with the Curtis 5K accelerator control.  The dash A/C 
> and or Heater control circuit is control by this limit switch.  When I 
> depress the accelerator pedal, the limit switch turns off the A/C or Heater 
> control circuits and when I let up on the accelerator, it turns these 
> circuits back on.
> 
> 
> 
> In the A/C system, many times it does not effect the A/C cooling, because the 
> A/C pump may be up to pressure and the clutch is disengaged anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> So far since installing this control system in 1980, I never had these units 
> run by the main battery power, except for testing only.
> 
> 
> 
> Roland
> 
> 
> - Original Message -
> 
> From: Bill Dube via EV<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org>
> 
> To: Chris Tromley<mailto:ctrom...@gmail.com> ; Electric Vehicle Discussion 
> List<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org>
> 
> Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 8:03 AM
> 
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] DIY EV air conditioning?
> 
> 
> 
> You would need a lot of ice, hundreds of pounds, to provide the
> refrigeration needed.
> 12,000 BTU/hr is the rating of a typical car air conditioning unit. This
> is literally equivalent to one ton (2000 lbs) of ice per day.
> 
> "Hacking" some OEM EV air conditionaing, like from a Prius, is likely
> the best option. There are also inverter driven (VFD) home compressors
> that would likely work as well, but aren't as rugged as the OEM EV air
> conditioning compressors.
> 
> I would investigate small, single phase input, three phase output,
> variable frequency drives (VFD) instead of building my own inverter from
> scratch. Like a TECO:
> http://www.surpluscenter.com/Electric-Motors/3-Phase-Motors/Variable-Frequency-Drives/1-HP-TECO-VFD-115-VAC-1PH-INPUT-3PH-OUTPUT-11-3424.axd<http://www.surpluscenter.com/Electric-Motors/3-Phase-Motors/Variable-Frequency-Drives/1-HP-TECO-VFD-115-VAC-1PH-INPUT-3PH-OUTPUT-11-3424.axd>
> 
> Likely will run nicely from DC. Certainly cheap to try.
> 
> Bill D.
> 
> 
> 
> On 6/11/2015 6:35 AM, Chris Tromley via EV wrote:
>> If A/C demands aren't great, I've wondered if you could get away with a
>> cooler, some ice packs, some water to carry the "cold" and a circulation
>> pump to run the water through a tubing network installed in a seat cover.
>> I know it sounds crude, but that's how NASA cools astronauts.  Almost all
>> the energy would come from the freezer that chills the ice packs.  Could be
>> inconvenient, but if the car is for commuting, just throw ice packs in the
>> fridge at work.
>> 
>> Chris
>> On Jun 10, 2015 5:44 PM, "Ben Goren via EV" 
>> mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org>> wrote:
>> 
>>> So, I can imagine all sorts of ways that one might run air conditioning in
>>> an electric vehicle, but I'm sure others have actually tried and done
>>> different ways and likely figured out the best general approach.
>>> 
>>> Any of those others reading these words and care to point me in a good
>>> direction?
>>> 
>>> This'll be starting from scratch in a vehicle that never had air
>>> conditioning in the first place but for which both factory and aftermarket
>>> air conditioning systems are available that run off of a pulley on the ICE
>>> engine.
>>> 
>>

Re: [EVDL] DIY EV air conditioning?

[Ben Goren via EV]

Thanks for the suggestions!

I don't think I'm up to hacking together a controller. Hacking a communication 
protocol _might_ be a possibility.

I have thought about the idea of a dedicated electric motor to run the 
compressor...and trading inefficiency for simplicity might be something I'd go 
for.

A couple more details...it'll be going in a 1964 1/2 Mustang that will retain 
its V8 ICE system and have an electric motor (probably HPEVS AC-35x2) going to 
a front-wheel-drive something-or-other. The leading candidate for the battery 
pack right now is a 22 kWh Leaf-based pack from Hybrid Auto Center, which 
should be easily capable of delivering sustained 20 kW with peak loads of 150 
kW. I'm guessing range is going to be roughly not dissimilar to a Volt's...so, 
even with a 4 kW load for climate, I should still typically have enough range 
for all-electric driving, plus the V8 will be there when needed.

...I should add, another option that I've thought of but rejected is to run the 
air conditioner off the V8...but that would require the V8 be running any time 
I wanted cool air...which, in Phoenix, is half the year. But if it's running 
off the electric system, even if the batteries run low, I can use a minimal 
amount of regen to put charge back in the EV half. Might not be all that great 
for fuel economy...but most of the time it's going to be running in electric 
mode, and most of the time that the V8 is running the electric motor is still 
going to be doing most of the acceleration, so I'm not overly worried about 
burning an extra gallon or three over the course of a year.

With the Prius route, what would be involved in hacking the communication 
protocol? And, the other direction, to stick a motor on a traditional unit, how 
big a motor would be ideal?

Thanks!

b&

On Jun 10, 2015, at 3:29 PM, Joe  wrote:

> I'm on my 4th iteration of air-conditioning scheme.  The latest is building a 
> controller to run a 2nd gen prius a/c compressor. I have a thread going on 
> DIYecar here:
> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/diy-controller-04-09-prius-c-140346.html
> 
> It's worked well so far at up to 105F outside despite speed limitations (due 
> to only a 144v pack) and power draw was only about 1.5kW.  I just got it 
> working a few months ago so we'll see if it lasts the summer.
> 
> Just some initial thoughts, I spent a lot of time/money flushing the hoses 
> and heat exchangers to get all the PAG oil out (eats at the motor windings 
> apparently).  Also spent extra money on having new hoses made.  Since you'll 
> be starting from scratch, you won't have to do either if you go the prius 
> compressor route.  Also, if you'd rather avoid hacking a controller together, 
> you could hack the communication protocol to the 3rd gen prius compressor 
> which has its controller built in.
> 
> Previous attempts were:
> - ice water and a fan.  was easy to try, but laughable for phoenix.
> - use a single phase compressor out of a 5000 BTU window a/c unit with a 
> homemade inverter - not enough cooling capacity, need more like 10k-12k 
> BTU/hr.
> - use a 3.5 HP treadmill motor to run the original a/c compressor.  Failed 
> miserably, not enough power to even get it turning past a few RPM.
> - use a 5 HP single phase 240VAC air compressor motor to turn the original 
> a/c compressor powered by a homemade 240VAC single phase inverter.  The motor 
> is readily available, so reasonably cheap.  This setup worked well from a 
> cooling perspective, but terribly inefficient and drew 3-4 kw on the hottest 
> days and not much less on the warm days.  My electronics failed on its second 
> summer, so I spent the winter working on the prius a/c project.
> 
> A friend of mine has a porsche and belt drives his compressor off the tail 
> shaft of the drive motor.  It was easy to do, but is about as inefficient as 
> my attempt to use a second motor to drive the original a/c compressor.  And, 
> gotta rev the motor while at a stop light to keep the compressor going.
> http://electricporsche924.blogspot.com/2014/09/ac-update.html
> 
> Joe
> 
> On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 2:44 PM, Ben Goren via EV  wrote:
> So, I can imagine all sorts of ways that one might run air conditioning in an 
> electric vehicle, but I'm sure others have actually tried and done different 
> ways and likely figured out the best general approach.
> 
> Any of those others reading these words and care to point me in a good 
> direction?
> 
> This'll be starting from scratch in a vehicle that never had air conditioning 
> in the first place but for which both factory and aftermarket air 
> conditioning systems are available that run off of a pulley on the ICE engine.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> b&
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> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA 
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> 
> 

---

Re: [EVDL] DIY EV air conditioning?

[Joe via EV]

Regarding an off-the-shelf VFD for a prius compressor, it would have to be
one that can control permanent magnet synchronous motors with interior
magnets.  The TECO drive linked appears to only work in sensorless mode for
induction motors.  Open loop V/f would probably make a prius compressor
spin, but probably not very efficiently or effectively at high power.

Also, I've measured up to 1500W (2 HP) drawn by the prius compressor on a
100F day with the fan on high, so the drive would have to be sized
accordingly.  Looks like the 2 and 3 HP versions of the TECO drive aren't
much more expensive, though.  One of those drives might work with a
residential hvac compressor.

Also, I forgot about masterflux drives and compressors.  They're expensive,
but I think they work well based on some posts on diyelectriccar.

On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 7:03 AM, Bill Dube via EV  wrote:

>
> "Hacking" some OEM EV air conditionaing, like from a Prius, is likely the
> best option. There are also inverter driven (VFD) home compressors that
> would likely work as well, but aren't as rugged as the OEM EV air
> conditioning compressors.
>
> I would investigate small, single phase input, three phase output,
> variable frequency drives (VFD) instead of building my own inverter from
> scratch. Like a TECO:
>
> http://www.surpluscenter.com/Electric-Motors/3-Phase-Motors/Variable-Frequency-Drives/1-HP-TECO-VFD-115-VAC-1PH-INPUT-3PH-OUTPUT-11-3424.axd
> Likely will run nicely from DC. Certainly cheap to try.
>
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Re: [EVDL] DIY EV air conditioning?

[Roland via EV]

   
One more thing to add to the A/C driving off the motor pilot shaft.  I do not 
use battery power to drive the motor at the same time the A/C comes on or even 
when the electric heaters come on.  How do I do this?   This is how: 

 

A A/C or electric heater does not run all the time.  In a A/C system there is a 
High Pressure and Low Pressure Switches.  In a heater there are also high 
temperature limit switches. 

 

The on dash switch controls a A/C relay which is also control by the high and 
low pressure switches.  Even if you turn on the dash A/C switch, the A/C pump 
may not engaged because the pressure may be up and the low pressure switch is 
not turn on which controls the A/C pump electric clutch.  

 

Only the blower fans come on when you turn on the A/C or Heater control 
switches. 

 

So as to prevent either the heater or A/C to operate, I install or use a limit 
switch that comes with the Curtis 5K accelerator control.  The dash A/C and or 
Heater control circuit is control by this limit switch.  When I depress the 
accelerator pedal, the limit switch turns off the A/C or Heater control 
circuits and when I let up on the accelerator, it turns these circuits back on. 

 

In the A/C system, many times it does not effect the A/C cooling, because the 
A/C pump may be up to pressure and the clutch is disengaged anyway.  

 

So far since installing this control system in 1980, I never had these units 
run by the main battery power, except for testing only. 

 

Roland   


- Original Message - 

From: Bill Dube via EV<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org> 

To: Chris Tromley<mailto:ctrom...@gmail.com> ; Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org> 

Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 8:03 AM

Subject: Re: [EVDL] DIY EV air conditioning?



You would need a lot of ice, hundreds of pounds, to provide the 
refrigeration needed.
12,000 BTU/hr is the rating of a typical car air conditioning unit. This 
is literally equivalent to one ton (2000 lbs) of ice per day.

"Hacking" some OEM EV air conditionaing, like from a Prius, is likely 
the best option. There are also inverter driven (VFD) home compressors 
that would likely work as well, but aren't as rugged as the OEM EV air 
conditioning compressors.

I would investigate small, single phase input, three phase output, 
variable frequency drives (VFD) instead of building my own inverter from 
scratch. Like a TECO:
http://www.surpluscenter.com/Electric-Motors/3-Phase-Motors/Variable-Frequency-Drives/1-HP-TECO-VFD-115-VAC-1PH-INPUT-3PH-OUTPUT-11-3424.axd<http://www.surpluscenter.com/Electric-Motors/3-Phase-Motors/Variable-Frequency-Drives/1-HP-TECO-VFD-115-VAC-1PH-INPUT-3PH-OUTPUT-11-3424.axd>
 

Likely will run nicely from DC. Certainly cheap to try.

Bill D.



On 6/11/2015 6:35 AM, Chris Tromley via EV wrote:
> If A/C demands aren't great, I've wondered if you could get away with a
> cooler, some ice packs, some water to carry the "cold" and a circulation
> pump to run the water through a tubing network installed in a seat cover.
> I know it sounds crude, but that's how NASA cools astronauts.  Almost all
> the energy would come from the freezer that chills the ice packs.  Could be
> inconvenient, but if the car is for commuting, just throw ice packs in the
> fridge at work.
>
> Chris
> On Jun 10, 2015 5:44 PM, "Ben Goren via EV" 
> mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org>> wrote:
>
>> So, I can imagine all sorts of ways that one might run air conditioning in
>> an electric vehicle, but I'm sure others have actually tried and done
>> different ways and likely figured out the best general approach.
>>
>> Any of those others reading these words and care to point me in a good
>> direction?
>>
>> This'll be starting from scratch in a vehicle that never had air
>> conditioning in the first place but for which both factory and aftermarket
>> air conditioning systems are available that run off of a pulley on the ICE
>> engine.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> b&
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Re: [EVDL] DIY EV air conditioning?

[Bill Dube via EV]

You would need a lot of ice, hundreds of pounds, to provide the 
refrigeration needed.
12,000 BTU/hr is the rating of a typical car air conditioning unit. This 
is literally equivalent to one ton (2000 lbs) of ice per day.


"Hacking" some OEM EV air conditionaing, like from a Prius, is likely 
the best option. There are also inverter driven (VFD) home compressors 
that would likely work as well, but aren't as rugged as the OEM EV air 
conditioning compressors.


I would investigate small, single phase input, three phase output, 
variable frequency drives (VFD) instead of building my own inverter from 
scratch. Like a TECO:
http://www.surpluscenter.com/Electric-Motors/3-Phase-Motors/Variable-Frequency-Drives/1-HP-TECO-VFD-115-VAC-1PH-INPUT-3PH-OUTPUT-11-3424.axd 


Likely will run nicely from DC. Certainly cheap to try.

Bill D.



On 6/11/2015 6:35 AM, Chris Tromley via EV wrote:

If A/C demands aren't great, I've wondered if you could get away with a
cooler, some ice packs, some water to carry the "cold" and a circulation
pump to run the water through a tubing network installed in a seat cover.
I know it sounds crude, but that's how NASA cools astronauts.  Almost all
the energy would come from the freezer that chills the ice packs.  Could be
inconvenient, but if the car is for commuting, just throw ice packs in the
fridge at work.

Chris
On Jun 10, 2015 5:44 PM, "Ben Goren via EV"  wrote:


So, I can imagine all sorts of ways that one might run air conditioning in
an electric vehicle, but I'm sure others have actually tried and done
different ways and likely figured out the best general approach.

Any of those others reading these words and care to point me in a good
direction?

This'll be starting from scratch in a vehicle that never had air
conditioning in the first place but for which both factory and aftermarket
air conditioning systems are available that run off of a pulley on the ICE
engine.

Thanks,

b&
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Re: [EVDL] DIY EV air conditioning?

[Chris Tromley via EV]

If A/C demands aren't great, I've wondered if you could get away with a
cooler, some ice packs, some water to carry the "cold" and a circulation
pump to run the water through a tubing network installed in a seat cover.
I know it sounds crude, but that's how NASA cools astronauts.  Almost all
the energy would come from the freezer that chills the ice packs.  Could be
inconvenient, but if the car is for commuting, just throw ice packs in the
fridge at work.

Chris
On Jun 10, 2015 5:44 PM, "Ben Goren via EV"  wrote:

> So, I can imagine all sorts of ways that one might run air conditioning in
> an electric vehicle, but I'm sure others have actually tried and done
> different ways and likely figured out the best general approach.
>
> Any of those others reading these words and care to point me in a good
> direction?
>
> This'll be starting from scratch in a vehicle that never had air
> conditioning in the first place but for which both factory and aftermarket
> air conditioning systems are available that run off of a pulley on the ICE
> engine.
>
> Thanks,
>
> b&
> ___
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> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
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Re: [EVDL] DIY EV air conditioning?

[Chris Meier via EV]

Had anyone tried a leaf heat pump?

On June 10, 2015 5:29:35 PM CDT, Joe via EV  wrote:
>I'm on my 4th iteration of air-conditioning scheme.  The latest is
>building
>a controller to run a 2nd gen prius a/c compressor. I have a thread
>going
>on DIYecar here:
>http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/diy-controller-04-09-prius-c-140346.html
>
>It's worked well so far at up to 105F outside despite speed limitations
>(due to only a 144v pack) and power draw was only about 1.5kW.  I just
>got
>it working a few months ago so we'll see if it lasts the summer.
>
>Just some initial thoughts, I spent a lot of time/money flushing the
>hoses
>and heat exchangers to get all the PAG oil out (eats at the motor
>windings
>apparently).  Also spent extra money on having new hoses made.  Since
>you'll be starting from scratch, you won't have to do either if you go
>the
>prius compressor route.  Also, if you'd rather avoid hacking a
>controller
>together, you could hack the communication protocol to the 3rd gen
>prius
>compressor which has its controller built in.
>
>Previous attempts were:
>- ice water and a fan.  was easy to try, but laughable for phoenix.
>- use a single phase compressor out of a 5000 BTU window a/c unit with
>a
>homemade inverter - not enough cooling capacity, need more like 10k-12k
>BTU/hr.
>- use a 3.5 HP treadmill motor to run the original a/c compressor. 
>Failed
>miserably, not enough power to even get it turning past a few RPM.
>- use a 5 HP single phase 240VAC air compressor motor to turn the
>original
>a/c compressor powered by a homemade 240VAC single phase inverter.  The
>motor is readily available, so reasonably cheap.  This setup worked
>well
>from a cooling perspective, but terribly inefficient and drew 3-4 kw on
>the
>hottest days and not much less on the warm days.  My electronics failed
>on
>its second summer, so I spent the winter working on the prius a/c
>project.
>
>A friend of mine has a porsche and belt drives his compressor off the
>tail
>shaft of the drive motor.  It was easy to do, but is about as
>inefficient
>as my attempt to use a second motor to drive the original a/c
>compressor.
>And, gotta rev the motor while at a stop light to keep the compressor
>going.
>http://electricporsche924.blogspot.com/2014/09/ac-update.html
>
>Joe
>
>On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 2:44 PM, Ben Goren via EV 
>wrote:
>
>> So, I can imagine all sorts of ways that one might run air
>conditioning in
>> an electric vehicle, but I'm sure others have actually tried and done
>> different ways and likely figured out the best general approach.
>>
>> Any of those others reading these words and care to point me in a
>good
>> direction?
>>
>> This'll be starting from scratch in a vehicle that never had air
>> conditioning in the first place but for which both factory and
>aftermarket
>> air conditioning systems are available that run off of a pulley on
>the ICE
>> engine.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> b&
>> ___
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>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
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>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>
>>
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Re: [EVDL] DIY EV air conditioning?

[Roland via EV]

   
Just attach a face mount A/C compressor to a aluminum plate attach to the 
electric motor face plate.  Install the same size diameter pulley on the motor 
pilot shaft that is normally use on a engine.  The pulley on the electric 
clutch is normally smaller.  This keeps the rpm high during idling.   Idle the 
motor by installing a 2nd 5k pot preset to about 300 to 400 rpm.  Use a on dash 
switch label IDLE  ON  OFF that is transfer to the accelerator circuit when you 
turn ON the IDLE switch.  

 

Another advantage using a IDLE switch even if you do not have the A/C on, is 
when you come to a quick stop and go, leave the IDLE switch ON which prevents 
starting up surge from a dead stop.  Instead of 500 amp start up surge with out 
the IDLE, it is only 150 to 200 amps with the IDLE ON or PRE IDLE just before 
you press the accelerator peddle. 

 

I pick up all the A/C equipment from a local radiator shop, which includes the 
condenser, compressor, compressor clutch, expansion tank with a filter insert, 
A/C core and hoses.  The  A/C core is normally sandwich with the heater core 
which uses the heater fan for the air input. 

 

The air input is normally coming from the outside air for the heating cycle. 
The engine coolant temperature may get up to 250 F, so the outside air is use 
to temper the input air temperature.  In A/C systems, there is a damper that 
blocks the outside air and recirculates the cab air.  

I modified this damper control to also circulate the heating air.  Only need 
the heater turn up to 600 watts which works good here in Montana.  15 minutes 
of run time will bring the temperature up to 80 F. in the heating cycle or down 
to 70 degrees from 80 degrees ambient in the A/C cycle. 

 

Roland   


- Original Message - 

From: Ben Goren via EV<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org> 

To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org> 

Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2015 3:44 PM

Subject: [EVDL] DIY EV air conditioning?



So, I can imagine all sorts of ways that one might run air conditioning in an 
electric vehicle, but I'm sure others have actually tried and done different 
ways and likely figured out the best general approach.

Any of those others reading these words and care to point me in a good 
direction?

This'll be starting from scratch in a vehicle that never had air conditioning 
in the first place but for which both factory and aftermarket air conditioning 
systems are available that run off of a pulley on the ICE engine.

Thanks,

b&
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Re: [EVDL] DIY EV air conditioning?

[Joe via EV]

I'm on my 4th iteration of air-conditioning scheme.  The latest is building
a controller to run a 2nd gen prius a/c compressor. I have a thread going
on DIYecar here:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/diy-controller-04-09-prius-c-140346.html

It's worked well so far at up to 105F outside despite speed limitations
(due to only a 144v pack) and power draw was only about 1.5kW.  I just got
it working a few months ago so we'll see if it lasts the summer.

Just some initial thoughts, I spent a lot of time/money flushing the hoses
and heat exchangers to get all the PAG oil out (eats at the motor windings
apparently).  Also spent extra money on having new hoses made.  Since
you'll be starting from scratch, you won't have to do either if you go the
prius compressor route.  Also, if you'd rather avoid hacking a controller
together, you could hack the communication protocol to the 3rd gen prius
compressor which has its controller built in.

Previous attempts were:
- ice water and a fan.  was easy to try, but laughable for phoenix.
- use a single phase compressor out of a 5000 BTU window a/c unit with a
homemade inverter - not enough cooling capacity, need more like 10k-12k
BTU/hr.
- use a 3.5 HP treadmill motor to run the original a/c compressor.  Failed
miserably, not enough power to even get it turning past a few RPM.
- use a 5 HP single phase 240VAC air compressor motor to turn the original
a/c compressor powered by a homemade 240VAC single phase inverter.  The
motor is readily available, so reasonably cheap.  This setup worked well
from a cooling perspective, but terribly inefficient and drew 3-4 kw on the
hottest days and not much less on the warm days.  My electronics failed on
its second summer, so I spent the winter working on the prius a/c project.

A friend of mine has a porsche and belt drives his compressor off the tail
shaft of the drive motor.  It was easy to do, but is about as inefficient
as my attempt to use a second motor to drive the original a/c compressor.
And, gotta rev the motor while at a stop light to keep the compressor going.
http://electricporsche924.blogspot.com/2014/09/ac-update.html

Joe

On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 2:44 PM, Ben Goren via EV  wrote:

> So, I can imagine all sorts of ways that one might run air conditioning in
> an electric vehicle, but I'm sure others have actually tried and done
> different ways and likely figured out the best general approach.
>
> Any of those others reading these words and care to point me in a good
> direction?
>
> This'll be starting from scratch in a vehicle that never had air
> conditioning in the first place but for which both factory and aftermarket
> air conditioning systems are available that run off of a pulley on the ICE
> engine.
>
> Thanks,
>
> b&
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
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> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
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[EVDL] DIY EV air conditioning?

[Ben Goren via EV]

So, I can imagine all sorts of ways that one might run air conditioning in an 
electric vehicle, but I'm sure others have actually tried and done different 
ways and likely figured out the best general approach.

Any of those others reading these words and care to point me in a good 
direction?

This'll be starting from scratch in a vehicle that never had air conditioning 
in the first place but for which both factory and aftermarket air conditioning 
systems are available that run off of a pulley on the ICE engine.

Thanks,

b&
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