Re: [EVDL] Heating system
On 29 Oct 2014 at 20:31, Lawrence Winiarski via EV wrote: I'm not familliar with the car you mentioned. How did they do [motor heat for the cabin]? Pretty much the way I described it. The car as originally designed had passive scoops on the rear quarter panels for motor cooling. Here's an example where you can clearly see the scoops. http://www.evalbum.com/2781 The manufacturer later added a bilge blower to force air from the scoops through the motor. The downstream side was ducted into an air diverter (simple plastic tube with movable doors) so it could be directed below the car, inside the car toward the passenger footwell, or toward the windshield. There were problems with the design. There wasn't much heat to begin with. The blower also didn't really produce enough pressure to get the air to the windshield with usable velocity. The air smelled bad after being run through the motor. I converted a room space heater by splitting and rewiring the elements in parallel for the car's 48 volts, and adding a DC motor for the fan. For windshield defogging, I used a hand-held hair dryer plumbed to the ducts from under the instrument panel. The heat still was inadequate, but it was definitely better than the factory heat. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Heating system
David, that was my experience with my C-cars and their so called heaters as well. All it did was bring the smell into the interior. Dach Do what you can, with what you have, where you are - Theodore Roosevelt “We reached the old wolf in time to watch a fierce green fire dying in her eyes I was young then, and full of trigger-itch; I thought that because fewer wolves meant more deer, that no wolves would mean hunters’ paradise. But after seeing the green fire die, I sensed that neither the wolf nor the mountain agreed with such a view.” - Aldo Leopold On Wednesday, October 29, 2014 11:42 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 29 Oct 2014 at 20:31, Lawrence Winiarski via EV wrote: I'm not familliar with the car you mentioned. How did they do [motor heat for the cabin]? Pretty much the way I described it. The car as originally designed had passive scoops on the rear quarter panels for motor cooling. Here's an example where you can clearly see the scoops. http://www.evalbum.com/2781 The manufacturer later added a bilge blower to force air from the scoops through the motor. The downstream side was ducted into an air diverter (simple plastic tube with movable doors) so it could be directed below the car, inside the car toward the passenger footwell, or toward the windshield. There were problems with the design. There wasn't much heat to begin with. The blower also didn't really produce enough pressure to get the air to the windshield with usable velocity. The air smelled bad after being run through the motor. I converted a room space heater by splitting and rewiring the elements in parallel for the car's 48 volts, and adding a DC motor for the fan. For windshield defogging, I used a hand-held hair dryer plumbed to the ducts from under the instrument panel. The heat still was inadequate, but it was definitely better than the factory heat. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141030/9065c5d3/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Heating system
/Typical AC motor is probably around 85% efficient so 15% = heat. 100 amps at 150 volts = 15kw. 15% of 15kw =2.25 kw of heat./ That's a fair amount of heat if you live in CA, but not AK, and that's assuming you can direct it to the cabin with 100% efficiency. Approaching that would require completely enshrouding the motor in some well-insulated plenum with ducting to collect air circulated around/through it from the cabin, and heavily insulating the ducting to/from the cabin. Otherwise at colder temperatures such as -10 F (-23 C), much of the heat will be lost under the hood and the air inflow to the cabin will be tepid at best. You also still have the problem of fogging with recirculation of cabin air with moisture added from human bodies, and you don't know what's entrained in the air circulated through the motor that you are breathing. The first electric heater core I used in place of the original core only produced about 900W max. It felt somewhat warm at 40 F (4 C) ambient, felt cool at +10 F. However, I think I recall Roland saying less than 1kW heats his cabin well in MT after re-insulating his cabin, so it might be made to work if everything was heavily insulated. The Commutacar reminds me of VW bug cabin heating from the engine. The ducting was integral to the unibody construction with no insulation just steel. By the time the air got to the cabin it was cool. I drove one for a 80 mile round trip. On cold winter days I clearly remember getting out and feeling like my feet were bricks, completely numb, despite having 2 pairs of wool socks and multiple layers of clothing on. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Re-Heating-system-tp4672239p4672295.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Heating system
We had a '72 Super Beetle that we drove in Ohio winters. You describe the heat performance when the ducting was intact - after it rusted out a bit, you were lucky to get air to the cabin at all. Ours had the Autostick transmission, so you could drive with one hand on the wheel and the other on the windshield scraper to see where you were going. - Cal tomw via EV mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org October 30, 2014 at 10:41 AM The Commutacar reminds me of VW bug cabin heating from the engine. The ducting was integral to the unibody construction with no insulation just steel. By the time the air got to the cabin it was cool. I drove one for a 80 mile round trip. On cold winter days I clearly remember getting out and feeling like my feet were bricks, completely numb, despite having 2 pairs of wool socks and multiple layers of clothing on. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141030/cff8266d/attachment.htm -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: compose-unknown-contact.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 770 bytes Desc: not available URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141030/cff8266d/attachment.jpg ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Heating system
I have been following the heater thread and since I have that Webasco diesel fired heater in my G-van just out of curiosity checked what they cost. Holy cannolis!! 2500-5000? Even on Ebay they are bringing some big time money. I may have to do a surgical removal on that puppy. While I was digging around under the engine (now controller) cover I reacquainted myself with the cool GM accessory drive setup for the alternator/ AC / PS/ PB. Hmm, a very tasty looking large DC motor driving all those loads indeed..LOL, may have to start considering parting this thing out. Dach. Do what you can, with what you have, where you are - Theodore Roosevelt On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 9:22 PM, Jan Steinman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: From: jerry freedomev via EV ev@lists.evdl.org Of all heaters diesel!!! Come on!! What I forgot to mention is that I make my own biodiesel from waste vegetable oil. Still, diesel has the highest energy density of common liquid fuels, and can be burned very cleanly, especially in external combustion situations. The Webasto website says their hydronic heaters are 97% efficient! The carbon impact of diesel is arguably less than that of LPG, which has a lot less energy content, and which requires a lot more processing. Diesel heat is also arguably less polluting than electric heat powered by a coal generating station, probably by a LONG SHOT, since the hydronic diesel heat is 90+% efficient, and the coal is at best 30% efficient by the time it gets turned into electricity. Clean energy is less energy. -- Ozzie Zehner Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141029/565228d4/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Heating system
Jan, I agree with you that sometimes diesel might be a great choice. What some people fail to recognize is that bio diesel can be fairly simply made in your garage. Yes, one can have a windmill on the roof or some other complicated scheme that is the ne + ultra but sometimes the simplest most effective solution is the best for a given situation. Many years ago when I was working with a Twike project I found it very enlightening that this really cool, highly over-engineered over built and overpriced EV used 2 $15 unmodified Braun hot combs as the defroster/heater. They ran fine on DC pack voltage just couldn't use the OEM switch to turn them off and on. I don't remember if they had a contactor or one just plugged them in, what I do remember was how well they worked on a rainy cold blustery day at Alameda! Would they work in Minnesota in the dead of winter in a full sized car? Maybe as defrosters but definitely not as heaters. In that case I have a couple of helicopter cabin heaters that I might consider using, LOL. Don't weigh much and put out quite a bit of heat and one could probably find a use for the exhaust flame. Keep on truckin, Dach. On Wednesday, October 29, 2014 1:03 AM, David Chapman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I have been following the heater thread and since I have that Webasco diesel fired heater in my G-van just out of curiosity checked what they cost. Holy cannolis!! 2500-5000? Even on Ebay they are bringing some big time money. I may have to do a surgical removal on that puppy. While I was digging around under the engine (now controller) cover I reacquainted myself with the cool GM accessory drive setup for the alternator/ AC / PS/ PB. Hmm, a very tasty looking large DC motor driving all those loads indeed..LOL, may have to start considering parting this thing out. Dach. Do what you can, with what you have, where you are - Theodore Roosevelt On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 9:22 PM, Jan Steinman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: From: jerry freedomev via EV ev@lists.evdl.org Of all heaters diesel!!! Come on!! What I forgot to mention is that I make my own biodiesel from waste vegetable oil. Still, diesel has the highest energy density of common liquid fuels, and can be burned very cleanly, especially in external combustion situations. The Webasto website says their hydronic heaters are 97% efficient! The carbon impact of diesel is arguably less than that of LPG, which has a lot less energy content, and which requires a lot more processing. Diesel heat is also arguably less polluting than electric heat powered by a coal generating station, probably by a LONG SHOT, since the hydronic diesel heat is 90+% efficient, and the coal is at best 30% efficient by the time it gets turned into electricity. Clean energy is less energy. -- Ozzie Zehner Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141029/565228d4/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141029/d038cbc5/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Heating system
From: David Chapman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org I have been following the heater thread and since I have that Webasco diesel fired heater in my G-van just out of curiosity checked what they cost. Holy cannolis!! 2500-5000? Even on Ebay they are bringing some big time money. As I mentioned, troll marinas and Craig's List. I got my Webasto for $400 from an ad on a marina bulletin board. If the energy crisis forces us to diminish automobile use in the cities, stops us from building highways and covering the country with concrete and asphalt, forces us to rehabilitate the railroads, causes us to invest in mass transportation and limits the waste of electrical energy, one can only assume that the Arab nations and the big oil companies have united to save the American Republic. -- John Kenneth Galbraith Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Heating system
On 2014-10-28, at 15:29, Lawrence Winiarski wrote: Sure seems to me the answer is to use the waste heat off the electric motor. (there's plenty of it in normal driving). This might be convenient if converting an old air-cooled VW, which already has ducting for cab heat via engine cooling. Otherwise, it's probably more trouble than it's worth, no? Particularly since the electric motor is much more efficient than the ICE -- for equal power, you're only going to have about 15% of heat available from the engine. (Assuming the ICE is 33% efficient, and the electric is 90% efficient.) There are three types of friends: those like food, without which you can't live; those like medicine, which you need occasionally; and those like an illness, which you never want. -- Solomon Ibn Gabirol Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Heating system
Sure seems to me the answer is to use the waste heat off the electric motor. (there's plenty of it in normal driving). On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 2:52 PM, Larry Gales via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Some time ago I did some calculations showing that if you used gasoline for heating an EV for all the heating you do for the cabin and the batteries, you would only consume 7-8 gallons of fuel per year. But if you only used it when needed, such as for long trips where you need maximum range for your EV, you would only consume about one gallon per year, an absolutely trivial amount. So I think heating with fuel should be a standard feature for electric cars. -- Larry Gales On Mon, Oct 27, 2014 at 9:24 PM, Jan Steinman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Perhaps this is a sacrilege on this list, but I'm planning to provide cabin heat in my 1981 Electranagon with... diesel fuel! I got hold of an old Webasto hydronic heater. You can find them used among boat people, bulletin boards at marinas, etc. They sip a tiny bit of diesel fuel, and turn it into fairly large quantities of hot water, which I plan to run through my Vanagon's heater core. Electricity is (as HT Odum would put it) a high transformity fuel, meaning it is highly refined and contains a lot of embedded energy. Why waste it heating up resistors? A 3kW electric heater running for an hour uses up over ten percent of a typical EV battery, whereas one tank of diesel will last me all winter. Anyway, just a thought... Jan From: Al via EV ev@lists.evdl.org It's that time of year, time to get the heater installed in my EV. When money becomes the deciding factor in food marketing, some very bad things can happen. I keep thinking about how during the famine in Ireland, the country’s grain was sold in the higher English commodity markets to pay rents to absentee landlords while the Irish people starved. Now that’s what I call real price discovery. -- Gene Logsdon Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- Larry Gales -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141028/4ee53fdb/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141028/61be64eb/attachment-0001.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Heating system
On 28 Oct 2014 at 15:29, Lawrence Winiarski via EV wrote: Sure seems to me the answer is to use the waste heat off the electric motor. (there's plenty of it in normal driving). I'm not so sure. Sebring/Vanguard tried that in the Comuta-Cars (and maybe some Citicars). The ran forced air into the motor for cooling. It was collected in a diverter box so it could be vented to the open air in summer, or sent into the cabin for heat in the winter. Electric motors of course are WAY more efficient than ICEs, so there's not so much waste heat. I had a C-car in the late 1980s, and the heater had no cabin-warming or defrosting effect that I could discern. However, it did bring in some hot-oil stink (the seal between differential and motor always leaked a bit) and a little ozone odor. If you were using a heat pump anyway, it would probably make some sense to harvest the small amount of waste heat from the motor. Otherwise, it's probably going to help much. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Heating system
Sure seems to me the answer is to use the waste heat off the electric motor. (there's plenty of it in normal driving). I'm not so sure. Sebring/Vanguard tried that in the Comuta-Cars (and maybe some Citicars). The ran forced air into the motor for cooling. Typical AC motor is probably around 85% efficient so 15% = heat. 100 amps at 150 volts = 15kw. 15% of 15kw =2.25 kw of heat. Seems to me thats a fair amount of heat going to waste. The problem is not that it's not there. It's low grade heat (i.e. low temperature, because you don't want the windings hot) so to harvest it, you can't just bring in outside cool air through the motor. You'd need to run cabin air recirculated and have a seperate system for fresh air. I'm not familliar with the car you mentioned. How did they do it? -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141029/a845a5ef/attachment-0001.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Heating system
Hi Jan, Bill and All, Of all heaters diesel!!! Come on!! If you live where you must have one because your EV isn't insulated like 99%, go propane, CNG at least. Better could be E blankets, seat heaters or an E jacket/pants. Also preheat the EV from the grid. Another is make a heat airbag heat blowing up the open bottom flowing under/over the seat, body to the armpit would heat one on just 100-200 wts even in really cold weather. For mine I'm going repackaged 6k btu window A/C unit with air doors to switch from heating to cooling run from an AC pack voltage inverter. An interesting way is the reverse of a Fla VW bus EV that used braking in traffic to power his A/C as regen in a way.One could reverse that and use it as heat using a belt driven compressor A/C unit turned on by the brake light or a switch for more A/C, with the air doors to switch back and forth. Got my new EV trike pickup legal driving down the road yesterday. Latter it'll get a full aero cabin on it. Jerry Dycus On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 1:47 AM, Bill Dube via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Reverse-cycle air conditioning (heat pump) uses typically three times less energy than a resistive heater for the same amount of heat. Plus you can use it for A/C in the summer. This is what the OEM EV's do. Pricey, however. A resistive heater is probably a more economic choice, however. Next size up in cells costs less than a heat pump and will likely give better overall service life due to the lower DOD in the summer months. Also, run the heater for a few minutes while still plugged in to warm up the cabin. Takes the chill off with zero load on the battery. To be humorous, but much to the point: Why not simply burn coal for cabin heat? Better yet, lignite. _Much_ cheaper and more compact than diesel fuel. A bit higher greenhouse emissions but .. Bill D. On 10/27/2014 10:24 PM, Jan Steinman via EV wrote: Perhaps this is a sacrilege on this list, but I'm planning to provide cabin heat in my 1981 Electranagon with... diesel fuel! I got hold of an old Webasto hydronic heater. You can find them used among boat people, bulletin boards at marinas, etc. They sip a tiny bit of diesel fuel, and turn it into fairly large quantities of hot water, which I plan to run through my Vanagon's heater core. Electricity is (as HT Odum would put it) a high transformity fuel, meaning it is highly refined and contains a lot of embedded energy. Why waste it heating up resistors? A 3kW electric heater running for an hour uses up over ten percent of a typical EV battery, whereas one tank of diesel will last me all winter. Anyway, just a thought... Jan ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141028/1fc8da9c/attachment-0001.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Heating system (AC units)
Reverse-cycle air conditioning (heat pump) uses typically three times less energy than a resistive heater for the same amount of heat. Amen. Mount it in the EV so you can flip it around. I have a window AC in a bathroom hole-in-the-wall so that I can slide it out and reverse it in winter. It provides plenty of heat when the outside is above 40. It provides as much heat as the 1500W electric heater but only draws 5 amps. (Though it is noiser in the winter)... I used to have a 10,000 BTU window AC unit mounted under the floor of our center hallway. Instead of 10,000 BTU of cooling, I got 30,000 BTU of heat up into the room (while cooling the basement in winter). But the basement never got below 60, since it has a huge heat source (the ground, laundry and waste heat from the oil boiler). This AC (heat pump) would come on by timer at 9 PM (when the electricity dropped to 2 cents/kWh) and maintain the whole house at temperarure through the night Keeping the oil thermostat from kicking back on. It was easy to find old AC units during appliance collection day on the side of the street. Over the years, I must have picked up a dozen AC units and EVERY one of them only had one problem, the same problem, the fan motor was gunked up and never oiled (or a few had bad thermostats). A little oil most often restored the fans to normal operation. Don't need it anymore. Installed a geothermal system and got rid of Oil heat! Bob ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Heating system
On 28 Oct 2014 at 3:47, jerry freedomev via EV wrote: If you live where you must have one because your EV isn't insulated like 99%, go propane, CNG at least. But make sure you vent it. Some early Citicars had unvented propane heaters. One of the products of combustion with such critters is water vapor. As soon as you lit the heater on a cool day, all the windows fogged up. BTW, one thing Citicars did NOT have that worked well, besides heat, was a defroster/defogger. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Heating system
Tens of thousands of PSA EVs can't be wrong, they all had gasoline Webasto heaters as you describe. It's good to have a toasty warm cabin in winter, with no reduction in range. The main problem with them (well, the Thermotop-C model) is that they don't last forever, you'll need two or three heaters per pack, if your pack lasts for 100k miles. On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 4:24 AM, Jan Steinman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Perhaps this is a sacrilege on this list, but I'm planning to provide cabin heat in my 1981 Electranagon with... diesel fuel! I got hold of an old Webasto hydronic heater. You can find them used among boat people, bulletin boards at marinas, etc. They sip a tiny bit of diesel fuel, and turn it into fairly large quantities of hot water, which I plan to run through my Vanagon's heater core. Electricity is (as HT Odum would put it) a high transformity fuel, meaning it is highly refined and contains a lot of embedded energy. Why waste it heating up resistors? A 3kW electric heater running for an hour uses up over ten percent of a typical EV battery, whereas one tank of diesel will last me all winter. Anyway, just a thought... Jan From: Al via EV ev@lists.evdl.org It's that time of year, time to get the heater installed in my EV. When money becomes the deciding factor in food marketing, some very bad things can happen. I keep thinking about how during the famine in Ireland, the country’s grain was sold in the higher English commodity markets to pay rents to absentee landlords while the Irish people starved. Now that’s what I call real price discovery. -- Gene Logsdon Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141028/89ebc983/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Heating system
Hello all, I own a 2012 iMiev in Montreal Quebec. For reference the car has a 16 KWH battery and a 5KW heater. The first winter I owned it I was on L1 charging only and it was a chilly winter in the car. I had to use the heat sparingly because of the long recharge times. The second winter I had L2 charging at home and that was better. I used the electric heater more but still had times when I had to sacrifice heat for range. It was less chilly but still not really warm in the car on longer rides. I did all kinds of things over those 2 years to stay warm in the car (heat lights, heated seats, propane tent heater in the cabin, 12V 250W heater) All this helps but very incrementally and it really clutters the car interior. The most effective thing I did was using 12V heated insole in my boots but this did nothing for passengers. Also resisting turning on the fan to bring in outside (cold) air in order to keep cabin heat creates window fogging and is real problem. The A/C clears the windows but does not add heat to the cabin. Heat is a real issue (for us) when it's very cold. Basically you need to bring in outside dry air to the cabin and you need much more of it when you have 3 passengers in the car. A bit of a challenge. For this winter (my third) I installed a diesel water heater. The OEM electric heat system is hot water based so the plumbing was pretty easy. This diesel heater outperforms the electric one in terms of peak heat output. It consumes between 200-500 ml per hour depending on if it's on high or low. Up to now I found that running it 50% of the time heats the cabin very well. It has completely transformed the car in terms of winter range. It saves cycles on the battery, harmonizes winter/summer range a lot and provides a much more normal driving experience in the winter. All this and the fuel burn is more then an order of magnitude better then a very efficient diesel car. I still preheat the car and use the electric heating when I don't need the range but for me the DH is the best way to go. Don. snip Message: 1 Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2014 21:24:12 -0700 From: Jan Steinman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org Cc: Rick Beebe via EV ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heating system Message-ID: 4e0c417c-0969-4d81-b21a-9a90e0d3d...@ecoreality.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Perhaps this is a sacrilege on this list, but I'm planning to provide cabin heat in my 1981 Electranagon with... diesel fuel! I got hold of an old Webasto hydronic heater. You can find them used among boat people, bulletin boards at marinas, etc. They sip a tiny bit of diesel fuel, and turn it into fairly large quantities of hot water, which I plan to run through my Vanagon's heater core. Electricity is (as HT Odum would put it) a high transformity fuel, meaning it is highly refined and contains a lot of embedded energy. Why waste it heating up resistors? A 3kW electric heater running for an hour uses up over ten percent of a typical EV battery, whereas one tank of diesel will last me all winter. Anyway, just a thought... Jan snip ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Heating system
Some time ago I did some calculations showing that if you used gasoline for heating an EV for all the heating you do for the cabin and the batteries, you would only consume 7-8 gallons of fuel per year. But if you only used it when needed, such as for long trips where you need maximum range for your EV, you would only consume about one gallon per year, an absolutely trivial amount. So I think heating with fuel should be a standard feature for electric cars. -- Larry Gales On Mon, Oct 27, 2014 at 9:24 PM, Jan Steinman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Perhaps this is a sacrilege on this list, but I'm planning to provide cabin heat in my 1981 Electranagon with... diesel fuel! I got hold of an old Webasto hydronic heater. You can find them used among boat people, bulletin boards at marinas, etc. They sip a tiny bit of diesel fuel, and turn it into fairly large quantities of hot water, which I plan to run through my Vanagon's heater core. Electricity is (as HT Odum would put it) a high transformity fuel, meaning it is highly refined and contains a lot of embedded energy. Why waste it heating up resistors? A 3kW electric heater running for an hour uses up over ten percent of a typical EV battery, whereas one tank of diesel will last me all winter. Anyway, just a thought... Jan From: Al via EV ev@lists.evdl.org It's that time of year, time to get the heater installed in my EV. When money becomes the deciding factor in food marketing, some very bad things can happen. I keep thinking about how during the famine in Ireland, the country’s grain was sold in the higher English commodity markets to pay rents to absentee landlords while the Irish people starved. Now that’s what I call real price discovery. -- Gene Logsdon Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- Larry Gales -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141028/4ee53fdb/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Heating system
The 1970s Otis P-500 electric van carried an Eberspächer gasoline heater similar to the ones used in the VW Bus. --Glen Sent from my iPhone On Oct 27, 2014, at 23:36, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: There used to be a fuel heater option available in the 50's and 60's buses. A source of burned down buses. This is all very vague in memory. I worked on VW's in the 80's and never actually had one cross my path, but I feel like I can almost picture it in the engine bay. Be careful. On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 12:24 AM, Jan Steinman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Perhaps this is a sacrilege on this list, but I'm planning to provide cabin heat in my 1981 Electranagon with... diesel fuel! I got hold of an old Webasto hydronic heater. You can find them used among boat people, bulletin boards at marinas, etc. They sip a tiny bit of diesel fuel, and turn it into fairly large quantities of hot water, which I plan to run through my Vanagon's heater core. Electricity is (as HT Odum would put it) a high transformity fuel, meaning it is highly refined and contains a lot of embedded energy. Why waste it heating up resistors? A 3kW electric heater running for an hour uses up over ten percent of a typical EV battery, whereas one tank of diesel will last me all winter. Anyway, just a thought... Jan From: Al via EV ev@lists.evdl.org It's that time of year, time to get the heater installed in my EV. When money becomes the deciding factor in food marketing, some very bad things can happen. I keep thinking about how during the famine in Ireland, the country’s grain was sold in the higher English commodity markets to pay rents to absentee landlords while the Irish people starved. Now that’s what I call real price discovery. -- Gene Logsdon Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain happiness, or should I help others gain happiness? *Dalai Lama * Tell me what it is you plan to do With your one wild and precious life? Mary Oliver, The summer day. To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell (919) 513-0418 Desk michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141028/42839b0a/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Heating system
From: jerry freedomev via EV ev@lists.evdl.org Of all heaters diesel!!! Come on!! What I forgot to mention is that I make my own biodiesel from waste vegetable oil. Still, diesel has the highest energy density of common liquid fuels, and can be burned very cleanly, especially in external combustion situations. The Webasto website says their hydronic heaters are 97% efficient! The carbon impact of diesel is arguably less than that of LPG, which has a lot less energy content, and which requires a lot more processing. Diesel heat is also arguably less polluting than electric heat powered by a coal generating station, probably by a LONG SHOT, since the hydronic diesel heat is 90+% efficient, and the coal is at best 30% efficient by the time it gets turned into electricity. Clean energy is less energy. -- Ozzie Zehner Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Heating system
Hi Larry and All, Or they could just insulate the EV's so little heating power is needed for heating is one of my choices to lower heating power. The heat you don't need is the cheapest of all so starting there is a good choice whatever heating source. Phase change salts can be recharged by the grid while batteries are charged plus heating the cabin can work Jerry Dycus On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 5:52 PM, Larry Gales via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Some time ago I did some calculations showing that if you used gasoline for heating an EV for all the heating you do for the cabin and the batteries, you would only consume 7-8 gallons of fuel per year. But if you only used it when needed, such as for long trips where you need maximum range for your EV, you would only consume about one gallon per year, an absolutely trivial amount. So I think heating with fuel should be a standard feature for electric cars. -- Larry Gales On Mon, Oct 27, 2014 at 9:24 PM, Jan Steinman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Perhaps this is a sacrilege on this list, but I'm planning to provide cabin heat in my 1981 Electranagon with... diesel fuel! I got hold of an old Webasto hydronic heater. You can find them used among boat people, bulletin boards at marinas, etc. They sip a tiny bit of diesel fuel, and turn it into fairly large quantities of hot water, which I plan to run through my Vanagon's heater core. Electricity is (as HT Odum would put it) a high transformity fuel, meaning it is highly refined and contains a lot of embedded energy. Why waste it heating up resistors? A 3kW electric heater running for an hour uses up over ten percent of a typical EV battery, whereas one tank of diesel will last me all winter. Anyway, just a thought... Jan From: Al via EV ev@lists.evdl.org It's that time of year, time to get the heater installed in my EV. When money becomes the deciding factor in food marketing, some very bad things can happen. I keep thinking about how during the famine in Ireland, the country’s grain was sold in the higher English commodity markets to pay rents to absentee landlords while the Irish people starved. Now that’s what I call real price discovery. -- Gene Logsdon Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- Larry Gales -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141028/4ee53fdb/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141028/3e9d2ef8/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Heating system
Perhaps this is a sacrilege on this list, but I'm planning to provide cabin heat in my 1981 Electranagon with... diesel fuel! I got hold of an old Webasto hydronic heater. You can find them used among boat people, bulletin boards at marinas, etc. They sip a tiny bit of diesel fuel, and turn it into fairly large quantities of hot water, which I plan to run through my Vanagon's heater core. Electricity is (as HT Odum would put it) a high transformity fuel, meaning it is highly refined and contains a lot of embedded energy. Why waste it heating up resistors? A 3kW electric heater running for an hour uses up over ten percent of a typical EV battery, whereas one tank of diesel will last me all winter. Anyway, just a thought... Jan From: Al via EV ev@lists.evdl.org It's that time of year, time to get the heater installed in my EV. When money becomes the deciding factor in food marketing, some very bad things can happen. I keep thinking about how during the famine in Ireland, the country’s grain was sold in the higher English commodity markets to pay rents to absentee landlords while the Irish people starved. Now that’s what I call real price discovery. -- Gene Logsdon Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Heating system
There used to be a fuel heater option available in the 50's and 60's buses. A source of burned down buses. This is all very vague in memory. I worked on VW's in the 80's and never actually had one cross my path, but I feel like I can almost picture it in the engine bay. Be careful. On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 12:24 AM, Jan Steinman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Perhaps this is a sacrilege on this list, but I'm planning to provide cabin heat in my 1981 Electranagon with... diesel fuel! I got hold of an old Webasto hydronic heater. You can find them used among boat people, bulletin boards at marinas, etc. They sip a tiny bit of diesel fuel, and turn it into fairly large quantities of hot water, which I plan to run through my Vanagon's heater core. Electricity is (as HT Odum would put it) a high transformity fuel, meaning it is highly refined and contains a lot of embedded energy. Why waste it heating up resistors? A 3kW electric heater running for an hour uses up over ten percent of a typical EV battery, whereas one tank of diesel will last me all winter. Anyway, just a thought... Jan From: Al via EV ev@lists.evdl.org It's that time of year, time to get the heater installed in my EV. When money becomes the deciding factor in food marketing, some very bad things can happen. I keep thinking about how during the famine in Ireland, the country’s grain was sold in the higher English commodity markets to pay rents to absentee landlords while the Irish people starved. Now that’s what I call real price discovery. -- Gene Logsdon Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain happiness, or should I help others gain happiness? *Dalai Lama * Tell me what it is you plan to do With your one wild and precious life? Mary Oliver, The summer day. To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell (919) 513-0418 Desk michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141028/42839b0a/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Heating system
Reverse-cycle air conditioning (heat pump) uses typically three times less energy than a resistive heater for the same amount of heat. Plus you can use it for A/C in the summer. This is what the OEM EV's do. Pricey, however. A resistive heater is probably a more economic choice, however. Next size up in cells costs less than a heat pump and will likely give better overall service life due to the lower DOD in the summer months. Also, run the heater for a few minutes while still plugged in to warm up the cabin. Takes the chill off with zero load on the battery. To be humorous, but much to the point: Why not simply burn coal for cabin heat? Better yet, lignite. _Much_ cheaper and more compact than diesel fuel. A bit higher greenhouse emissions but .. Bill D. On 10/27/2014 10:24 PM, Jan Steinman via EV wrote: Perhaps this is a sacrilege on this list, but I'm planning to provide cabin heat in my 1981 Electranagon with... diesel fuel! I got hold of an old Webasto hydronic heater. You can find them used among boat people, bulletin boards at marinas, etc. They sip a tiny bit of diesel fuel, and turn it into fairly large quantities of hot water, which I plan to run through my Vanagon's heater core. Electricity is (as HT Odum would put it) a high transformity fuel, meaning it is highly refined and contains a lot of embedded energy. Why waste it heating up resistors? A 3kW electric heater running for an hour uses up over ten percent of a typical EV battery, whereas one tank of diesel will last me all winter. Anyway, just a thought... Jan ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] Heating system
It's that time of year, time to get the heater installed in my EV. It consists of a 3kW tank heater, a 12V solar pump, piped to the OEM heater core. My problem? I can't figure out why it is so damn hard to get the air out of the system. The tank and the pump are down low, the heater core about 6 inches above. My first guess was that a simple vertical tube with a small bottle on the outlet of the core at the highest point should work. It would allow expansion and any air should find its way up and out. Doesn't work. The only thing I have done that even comes close to working is to have a small diameter bypass around the core that runs through a bottle. Even then, it takes a long time to get a fairly solid fluid flow. Am I missing something? Thanks, Al ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Heating system
I had the same problem. What finally worked for me was to tee in a bottle (I used a regular coolant overflow bottle) to the line leading to the pump. I also have a brass tee with a plug at the highest point in the system in the line leading from the tank. I opened that to let air out. First I pulled the outlet hose on the tank (mine is on top) and filled the tank up. Reattached the hose and filled the coolant bottle. Then I disconnected the heating elements and just ran the pump. I kept the coolant bottle filled. Eventually fluid started splashing around in the brass tee. I loosely put the cap back on and kept filling until it was oozing steadly. Sealed it up and reconnected the heating elements. --Rick On 10/18/2014 10:58 PM, Al via EV wrote: It's that time of year, time to get the heater installed in my EV. It consists of a 3kW tank heater, a 12V solar pump, piped to the OEM heater core. My problem? I can't figure out why it is so damn hard to get the air out of the system. The tank and the pump are down low, the heater core about 6 inches above. My first guess was that a simple vertical tube with a small bottle on the outlet of the core at the highest point should work. It would allow expansion and any air should find its way up and out. Doesn't work. The only thing I have done that even comes close to working is to have a small diameter bypass around the core that runs through a bottle. Even then, it takes a long time to get a fairly solid fluid flow. Am I missing something? ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Heating system
Hello Al, The electric hot water heater should be at the lowest position in your heating system. The tank I use is the same type that a lot of auto use that has its radiator lower than the engine. Call a remote fill tank that is place up even or a bit higher than the heater core in the passenger apartment. The tank has a standard radiator pressure cap on it like it would on a high radiator has. No radiator cap is use on these low radiator systems. The tank has a outlet on the bottom that connects to a hose that is connected in line with the tank heater. A hose is then connected from the tank heater and connected directly to the input line to the heater core. The return line that comes out of the heater core is then connected to the hose connection that is place high on the tank. When filling the tank with fluid, fill the tank about only half full. Some of these remote fill tanks have a cold fill line and a hot fill line on them. The return fluid is only allow to drip into the tank. As the fluid heats up, the fluid will expand to the hot fill line and may even up to the top of the tank. This increases the pressure to the maximum relief pressure of the pressure cap, just like the one that is use on radiators. You can use a standard pressure cap, but you do not need a high pressure or high temperature one that goes over 180 F. If for some reason the temperature and pressure goes above the rating of the pressure cap, the cap will open and the pressure and fluid flows to a small overflow tank, like the ones in other cars. The over flow tank has a small hose that vents to the outside air. This is how the air in the system is remove. You fill the overflow tank about half full or to the fill line in the overflow tank. As the heater systems cools down, the fluid in the overflow tank will than be drawn up to the fill tank. You can first test this heater system without the overflow tank by adjusting the temperature and pressure by using different radiator caps. I first started out with a lower fluid temperature and a 15 psi pressure cap that will open at 180 F. degrees. Just attach a overflow line on the pressure cap on the fill tank directly to the outside air or let it drip into a catch can for this test. If you keep the fluid temperature below the rating of the pressure cap, then you may not need a over fluid, but still attach a pressure relief hose to the pressure cap anyway and down, just incase it blows, the fluid does not get on any equipment. Unlike a radiator cooling system to keep a engine at a certain temperature, we want to keep the heater fluid at a maximum set temperature. In a standard engine vehicle, you will notice none of the fluid lines are not insulated. It is best to insulated all these lines in a EV. I use the round A/C dense black foam hose lines on all the heater feed and return lines. I also cover the 3 inch diameter 18 inch long 1500 watt heater unit which is use diesel engines which has a adjustable plug in thermostat on one end and a option pump on the other. I can also preheat this unit with commercial power, by using a on the dash transfer switch, that can either select the on board 120 Vac 60 hz which is inverted from 110 vdc rotating inverter by the pilot shaft of the main motor. All last winter for some reason, I did not have to used my on board heater, I just use the outboard commercial power to preheat the passenger apartment to 80 F degrees, which only takes about 15 minutes before I leave. Roland - Original Message - From: Al via EVmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion Listmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:58 PM Subject: [EVDL] Heating system It's that time of year, time to get the heater installed in my EV. It consists of a 3kW tank heater, a 12V solar pump, piped to the OEM heater core. My problem? I can't figure out why it is so damn hard to get the air out of the system. The tank and the pump are down low, the heater core about 6 inches above. My first guess was that a simple vertical tube with a small bottle on the outlet of the core at the highest point should work. It would allow expansion and any air should find its way up and out. Doesn't work. The only thing I have done that even comes close to working is to have a small diameter bypass around the core that runs through a bottle. Even then, it takes a long time to get a fairly solid fluid flow. Am I missing something? Thanks, Al ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usubhttp://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.orghttp://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRAhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part
