Re: [EVDL] Miles consumed for altitude

[Cor van de Water via EV]

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Re: [EVDL] Miles consumed for altitude

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

One more thing.
Someone on here a year or so ago reminded us that the best time to use
regen is when you have no choice but to stop, but then do it EARLY!
As soon as you see the stop, dont arrange your coast so that you slowly
slow down to the end, but get on the REGEN immediately and take out all the
excess speed leaving just enough to get to the stop light and no more. This
way you recover some of that high speed energy that otherwise will be lost
to the drag (cube of velocity).

So when descending a mountain, it is far better to use regen to slow your
speed to 50 or 60 MPH rather than just coasting at 90 MPH and throwing away
all kinds of energy in drag
But again, no more regen than you need.

Bob

On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 5:30 PM Bill Dube via EV  wrote:

>  In Colorado, you care about the loss of range when you change
> altitude because you may not have enough range to; A) get to your
> destination at the higher elevation, or, B) make the return trip from
> some location at lower elevation.
>
>  For example, if you were to drive you brand new Leaf from
> Evergreen, CO (7220 ft) to Denver International Airport (5434ft), then
> you had better stop for a fast charge at Canopy Parking when you get to
> the airport, even though it _looks_ like you have plenty of charge to
> make the return trip.
>
>  If your car has sufficient battery pack capacity, then indeed, you
> recoup quite a good fraction of the energy lost (or gained) traveling to
> a different elevation. In a mountainous region, you may not be able to
> make the round trip. The 20% "EVDL" number represents the typical energy
> gain from having regen in mixed driving, versus not having regen and
> throwing the braking energy away to your brakes. Based on what I
> experienced driving my Leaf in Colorado, I would guess that you recoup
> most of the range you expend changing altitude. Perhaps 80%, maybe a bit
> more.
>
>   Bill D.
>
> On 10/15/2020 6:01 AM, Lee Hart via EV wrote:
> > EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
> >> On 14 Oct 2020 at 6:09, Jay Summet via EV wrote:
> >>> Regeneration is only about 20% efficient.
> >>
> >> So they say - at least here on the EVDL.  I've read similar
> >> declarations for
> >> decades. But those statements aren't in accord with the data in the
> >> link I
> >> provided.
> >>
> >> http://evdl.org/pages/evergreen.html
> >>
> >> "Range is not significantly affected by mountain driving. Essentially
> >> the
> >> entire potential energy difference can be recovered by regenerative
> >> braking
> >> and by coasting when possible.  Nonetheless for optimal range, the
> >> mountainous portion of a long journey should not be at or near the
> >> journey's
> >> end."
> >>
> >> I have a lot of respect for Axel Krause.  So, with all due respect,
> >> I'd like
> >> to see some documentation for that 20% figure, if you don't mind.
> >
> > Indeed, regenerative braking only recovers about 20-30% of the energy
> > expended (battery-out to battery-in). This is due to the cascaded
> > efficiency losses of the battery, controller, motor, drive train,
> > tires, and aerodynamics on the way up; and then the same sequence of
> > losses again on the way down. Though each can be 90% efficient, they
> > multiply to nickel-and-dime you do death. If each is 90% efficient
> > 0.9^12 = 28%.
> >
> > But that's the worst-case. You're rarely going to drive up a mountain
> > so steep and long that you *double* your energy consumption going up,
> > and expend *zero* energy coasting back down. The more likely case is
> > that your horizontal drive is far longer than your vertical climb. So
> > over the length of your trip, you only expend a *little* more energy
> > going up than going sideways.
> >
> > For example, you might spends 10 + 1 = 11 KWH going up; and then 10 -
> > 25%(1) = 9.75 KWH coming back down. You only got back 25% of your
> > hill-climbing power; but the total trip used 11+9.75 = 20.75 KWH,
> > which is barely more than the 20 KWH that the trip would have taken on
> > level ground -- the loss of range is hardly noticeable.
> >
> > Lee Hart
> >
>
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Re: [EVDL] Miles consumed for altitude

[Jan Steinman via EV]

> From: Lee Hart 

> You're rarely going to drive up a mountain so 
> steep and long that you *double* your energy consumption going up, and 
> expend *zero* energy coasting back down.

This is pretty well backed up by a hundred years or so of driving experience.

When was the last time you budgeted extra fuel for an ICE trip over the 
mountains?

You get ZERO regeneration from an ICE, and yet, fuel economy isn't hugely 
different in most cases, the exception being if you have to use a lot of 
braking coming down.

Most of that is because you way less fuel coming downhill! In a diesel or a 
hybrid, you end up using ZERO fuel to come back down!

 Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op 

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Re: [EVDL] Miles consumed for altitude

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 15 Oct 2020 at 10:30, Bill Dube via EV wrote:

> The 20% "EVDL" number represents the typical energy gain from
> having regen in mixed driving, versus not having regen and throwing the
> braking energy away to your brakes. Based on what I experienced driving my
> Leaf in Colorado, I would guess that you recoup most of the range you expend
> changing altitude. Perhaps 80%, maybe a bit more.

Bill, thanks.  You've cut to the core of this matter quite neatly.  What you 
say makes sense, and follows closely what Axel Krause was reporting already 
in 1997.  

Of course you can't recover energy lost to rolling friction and aerodynamic 
resistance.  On level ground regen recovers only the kinetic energy lost to 
heat in the friction brakes, which is certainly a small fraction of the 
total losses. 

But regen clearly CAN recover a significant part of the energy expended in 
an altitude increase. 

That said, as both your airport example and and Krause's illustrate, "for 
optimal range, the mountainous [that is, high altitude] portion of a long 
journey should not be at or near the journey's end."  

It's also worth pointing out that no ICEV, nor any wussy-battery-fuel-only 
fake hybrid, can possibly recover more than a tiny fraction of the energy it 
expends on increasing altitude.  That accomplishment belongs solely to BEVs 
and true hybrids.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

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offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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Re: [EVDL] Miles consumed for altitude

[Bill Dube via EV]

    In Colorado, you care about the loss of range when you change 
altitude because you may not have enough range to; A) get to your 
destination at the higher elevation, or, B) make the return trip from 
some location at lower elevation.


    For example, if you were to drive you brand new Leaf from 
Evergreen, CO (7220 ft) to Denver International Airport (5434ft), then 
you had better stop for a fast charge at Canopy Parking when you get to 
the airport, even though it _looks_ like you have plenty of charge to 
make the return trip.


    If your car has sufficient battery pack capacity, then indeed, you 
recoup quite a good fraction of the energy lost (or gained) traveling to 
a different elevation. In a mountainous region, you may not be able to 
make the round trip. The 20% "EVDL" number represents the typical energy 
gain from having regen in mixed driving, versus not having regen and 
throwing the braking energy away to your brakes. Based on what I 
experienced driving my Leaf in Colorado, I would guess that you recoup 
most of the range you expend changing altitude. Perhaps 80%, maybe a bit 
more.


 Bill D.

On 10/15/2020 6:01 AM, Lee Hart via EV wrote:

EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

On 14 Oct 2020 at 6:09, Jay Summet via EV wrote:

Regeneration is only about 20% efficient.


So they say - at least here on the EVDL.  I've read similar 
declarations for
decades. But those statements aren't in accord with the data in the 
link I

provided.

http://evdl.org/pages/evergreen.html

"Range is not significantly affected by mountain driving. Essentially 
the
entire potential energy difference can be recovered by regenerative 
braking

and by coasting when possible.  Nonetheless for optimal range, the
mountainous portion of a long journey should not be at or near the 
journey's

end."

I have a lot of respect for Axel Krause.  So, with all due respect, 
I'd like

to see some documentation for that 20% figure, if you don't mind.


Indeed, regenerative braking only recovers about 20-30% of the energy 
expended (battery-out to battery-in). This is due to the cascaded 
efficiency losses of the battery, controller, motor, drive train, 
tires, and aerodynamics on the way up; and then the same sequence of 
losses again on the way down. Though each can be 90% efficient, they 
multiply to nickel-and-dime you do death. If each is 90% efficient 
0.9^12 = 28%.


But that's the worst-case. You're rarely going to drive up a mountain 
so steep and long that you *double* your energy consumption going up, 
and expend *zero* energy coasting back down. The more likely case is 
that your horizontal drive is far longer than your vertical climb. So 
over the length of your trip, you only expend a *little* more energy 
going up than going sideways.


For example, you might spends 10 + 1 = 11 KWH going up; and then 10 - 
25%(1) = 9.75 KWH coming back down. You only got back 25% of your 
hill-climbing power; but the total trip used 11+9.75 = 20.75 KWH, 
which is barely more than the 20 KWH that the trip would have taken on 
level ground -- the loss of range is hardly noticeable.


Lee Hart



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Re: [EVDL] Miles consumed for altitude

[paul dove via EV]

 That says an increase of 18%! Look at figure 23.

On Wednesday, October 14, 2020, 10:09:41 AM CDT, Jay Summet via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 These people were able to get up to 18% on an i-MiEV measured on a dyno

https://www.mdpi.com/2032-6653/5/2/494/pdf


Jay

On 10/14/20 7:38 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
> On 14 Oct 2020 at 6:09, Jay Summet via EV wrote:
> 
>> Regeneration is only about 20% efficient.
> 
> So they say - at least here on the EVDL.  I've read similar declarations for
> decades. But those statements aren't in accord with the data in the link I
> provided.
> 
> http://evdl.org/pages/evergreen.html
> 
> "Range is not significantly affected by mountain driving. Essentially the
> entire potential energy difference can be recovered by regenerative braking
> and by coasting when possible.  Nonetheless for optimal range, the
> mountainous portion of a long journey should not be at or near the journey's
> end."
> 
> I have a lot of respect for Axel Krause.  So, with all due respect, I'd like
> to see some documentation for that 20% figure, if you don't mind.
> 
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> 
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>      "My country, right or wrong" is a thing that no patriot would
>      think of saying except in a desperate case. It's like saying
>      "My mother, drunk or sober."
> 
>                                                  -- GK Chesterton
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Re: [EVDL] Miles consumed for altitude

[Lee Hart via EV]

EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

On 14 Oct 2020 at 6:09, Jay Summet via EV wrote:

Regeneration is only about 20% efficient.


So they say - at least here on the EVDL.  I've read similar declarations for
decades. But those statements aren't in accord with the data in the link I
provided.

http://evdl.org/pages/evergreen.html

"Range is not significantly affected by mountain driving. Essentially the
entire potential energy difference can be recovered by regenerative braking
and by coasting when possible.  Nonetheless for optimal range, the
mountainous portion of a long journey should not be at or near the journey's
end."

I have a lot of respect for Axel Krause.  So, with all due respect, I'd like
to see some documentation for that 20% figure, if you don't mind.


Indeed, regenerative braking only recovers about 20-30% of the energy 
expended (battery-out to battery-in). This is due to the cascaded 
efficiency losses of the battery, controller, motor, drive train, tires, 
and aerodynamics on the way up; and then the same sequence of losses 
again on the way down. Though each can be 90% efficient, they multiply 
to nickel-and-dime you do death. If each is 90% efficient 0.9^12 = 28%.


But that's the worst-case. You're rarely going to drive up a mountain so 
steep and long that you *double* your energy consumption going up, and 
expend *zero* energy coasting back down. The more likely case is that 
your horizontal drive is far longer than your vertical climb. So over 
the length of your trip, you only expend a *little* more energy going up 
than going sideways.


For example, you might spends 10 + 1 = 11 KWH going up; and then 10 - 
25%(1) = 9.75 KWH coming back down. You only got back 25% of your 
hill-climbing power; but the total trip used 11+9.75 = 20.75 KWH, which 
is barely more than the 20 KWH that the trip would have taken on level 
ground -- the loss of range is hardly noticeable.


Lee Hart

--
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint Exupery
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Miles consumed for altitude

[Peri Hartman via EV]

I think elevation becomes less significant because, in most cases, the 
overall grade is pretty minimal. In so many words, this is essentially 
what was explained in a lengthy post earlier (sorry, I can't remember 
who wrote it).


For example, if I were to drive to Snoqualmie Pass, east of Seattle, 
it's a 3000' climb. It's about 60 miles one way from my starting point. 
So, at 3 miles / kWh, i would need roughly 20kWh to go that distance if 
it were flat.


In the lengthy post, they show that it takes 1.3kWh to lift a 3.5k car 
1000'. In my example, that would be 3.9kWh for 3000'. (I'm not sure how 
significant I^2R losses are.)


Adding that in, I now need 24kWh. That's noticeably more than flat 
travel but small enough that it might be ignored, especially by the time 
regen kicks in for the descent. And especially less significant if you 
have cabin heat on for that hour of travel.


Peri

<< Want to know about the effects of leaf blowers ? 
https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>


-- Original Message --
From: "EVDL Administrator via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "EVDL Administrator" 
Sent: 14-Oct-20 4:38:25 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Miles consumed for altitude


On 14 Oct 2020 at 6:09, Jay Summet via EV wrote:


 Regeneration is only about 20% efficient.


So they say - at least here on the EVDL.  I've read similar declarations for
decades. But those statements aren't in accord with the data in the link I
provided.

http://evdl.org/pages/evergreen.html

"Range is not significantly affected by mountain driving. Essentially the
entire potential energy difference can be recovered by regenerative braking
and by coasting when possible.  Nonetheless for optimal range, the
mountainous portion of a long journey should not be at or near the journey's
end."

I have a lot of respect for Axel Krause.  So, with all due respect, I'd like
to see some documentation for that 20% figure, if you don't mind.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
 "My country, right or wrong" is a thing that no patriot would
 think of saying except in a desperate case. It's like saying
 "My mother, drunk or sober."

 -- GK Chesterton
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

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Re: [EVDL] Miles consumed for altitude

[Rod Hower via EV]

 I think this article does a good job describing the 
efficiency,https://electrek.co/2018/04/24/regenerative-braking-how-it-works/


On Wednesday, October 14, 2020, 07:41:05 AM EDT, EVDL Administrator via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 On 14 Oct 2020 at 6:09, Jay Summet via EV wrote:

> Regeneration is only about 20% efficient. 

So they say - at least here on the EVDL.  I've read similar declarations for 
decades. But those statements aren't in accord with the data in the link I 
provided.

http://evdl.org/pages/evergreen.html

"Range is not significantly affected by mountain driving. Essentially the 
entire potential energy difference can be recovered by regenerative braking 
and by coasting when possible.  Nonetheless for optimal range, the 
mountainous portion of a long journey should not be at or near the journey's 
end."

I have a lot of respect for Axel Krause.  So, with all due respect, I'd like 
to see some documentation for that 20% figure, if you don't mind.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
    "My country, right or wrong" is a thing that no patriot would 
    think of saying except in a desperate case. It's like saying 
    "My mother, drunk or sober."

                                                -- GK Chesterton
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] Miles consumed for altitude

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 14 Oct 2020 at 6:09, Jay Summet via EV wrote:

> Regeneration is only about 20% efficient. 

So they say - at least here on the EVDL.  I've read similar declarations for 
decades. But those statements aren't in accord with the data in the link I 
provided.

http://evdl.org/pages/evergreen.html

"Range is not significantly affected by mountain driving. Essentially the 
entire potential energy difference can be recovered by regenerative braking 
and by coasting when possible.  Nonetheless for optimal range, the 
mountainous portion of a long journey should not be at or near the journey's 
end."

I have a lot of respect for Axel Krause.  So, with all due respect, I'd like 
to see some documentation for that 20% figure, if you don't mind.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
 "My country, right or wrong" is a thing that no patriot would 
 think of saying except in a desperate case. It's like saying 
 "My mother, drunk or sober."

 -- GK Chesterton
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] Miles consumed for altitude

[Jay Summet via EV]

Regeneration is only about 20% efficient.  It saves you more power to 
coast (not expend power) than to regenerate (try and re-capture power 
you've already spent at 20% efficiency).


True, if you are high up, you can regain a lot of power, because you 
have a lot of potential energybut it took you a lot more energy to 
get up there in the first place.


Jay



On 10/13/20 12:34 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me that this is largely a moot
point unless you plan to never descend from the higher ground.  A well
designed EV should recover a large portion of the additional expended energy
via regeneration on the descent, n'est-ce pas?

http://evdl.org/pages/evergreen.html

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
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Re: [EVDL] Miles consumed for altitude

[Cor van de Water via EV]

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Re: [EVDL] Miles consumed for altitude

[Willie via EV]

On 10/13/20 11:34 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me that this is largely a moot
point unless you plan to never descend from the higher ground.  A well
designed EV should recover a large portion of the additional expended energy
via regeneration on the descent, n'est-ce pas?


Texas has little local changes in elevations.  From zero near the Gulf 
of Mexico up to around 4000' beyond Amarillo to near the NW New Mexico 
border; that's a distance of ~800 miles.  An exception is the Big Bend 
area along the Mexican border, especially Big Bend National Park which 
has the Chisos Mountains sticking up around 3000' above the surrounding 
desert.  The Chisos are a prime tourist attraction in the park.  I've 
made Big Bend trips through out my life.  The past 6-8 years, only in 
Teslas.  I believe I was the first EV to tour the park a few years ago. 
I made the mistake of laboriously acquiring a full charge at over 5000' 
in the Chisos.  Not thinking about the need for regen braking but 
worried about making a charge station some 200 miles distant.  Marathon 
is about the nearest "services" to the Chisos Basin; about 80 miles. 
Emergency RV park charging can be had in Marathon.  On a subsequent 
trip, I was careful to not charge above 80% in the Chisos Basin.  I 
found I could go over 40 miles toward Marathon before I used any net 
energy.  That is, about 40 miles out, I still had the same state of 
charge as I had in the Chisos Basin.


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Re: [EVDL] Miles consumed for altitude

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

The altitude question came up while I was developing the proposal to put
120v EV Outlets at Appalachian Trailheads in Maryland
During an 8 hour day hike, a car plugged into 120v can gain about 36 miles
for the trip home, PLUS the altitude potential energy gained.
So, for a 2000' trailhead, then the car can count on an additional 12 free
miles for the trip home.
See http://aprs.org/EVs-and-AT.html

If we can pull this off, imagine the PR potential of promoting EVs and
Clean energy!
The trail is only 40 miles across Maryland and I think we have found 8
trailheads with power..
Bob

On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 12:36 PM EVDL Administrator via EV <
ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

> Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me that this is largely a
> moot
> point unless you plan to never descend from the higher ground.  A well
> designed EV should recover a large portion of the additional expended
> energy
> via regeneration on the descent, n'est-ce pas?
>
> http://evdl.org/pages/evergreen.html
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Miles consumed for altitude

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me that this is largely a moot 
point unless you plan to never descend from the higher ground.  A well 
designed EV should recover a large portion of the additional expended energy 
via regeneration on the descent, n'est-ce pas?

http://evdl.org/pages/evergreen.html

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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Re: [EVDL] Miles consumed for altitude

[Peter Eckhoff via EV]

A while back, I proposed to the Bolt Forum that they use the conversion
formula from foot-pounds to kwh to figure loss of range when climbing hills
and mountains.  Several tried it and reported fairly accurate numbers.  So,
it's anecdotal but reasonable.

The formula is change in elevation (ft) x (weight of vehicle + cargo and
people (lbs)) * 3.76616e-7 = kwhrs used.

So if a Bolt weighs 3500 pounds and you add two adults plus cargo and it's
driven up a 1,000 foot grade,
that's 1,000 * (3500 + 400) * 3.77*e-7 = 1.47 kwhrs   In other words, you
lose about 6 miles of range for a vehicle that normally goes 4 miles on a
kwh of electricity.

Peter

On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 12:31 AM Robert Bruninga via EV 
wrote:

> I saw a reference to 7 miles or so range loss for each 1000' of elevation
> rise.
> I calculated about 4 miles for raising a 2000 Lb car 1000'.
> Hummh, VOLT weighs 3500 lBs, so I guess that is in the ballpark of 6
> miles
>
> ANyone seen a real reference?
> bob
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Re: [EVDL] Miles consumed for altitude

[Haudy Kazemi via EV]

The answer varies by conditions and vehicle. It takes a certain amount of
energy (kWh) to climb 1000'.

How much energy (kWh) you need to move vertically depends on your vehicle
mass (kg).

How big of an effect that amount of energy (kWh) has on your range, depends
on your battery capacity (kWh) and rated vehicle efficiency (Wh/mile) on
the flat.

For the same grade, it could be under 6, or it could be over 8, miles range
consumed per 1000' climbed, per the earlier examples.

There are also I^2R losses that increase under heavy loading conditions
like climbing, or under rapid regen, both of which will increase battery
temperatures. HVAC loads are on top of all the rest.



On Tue, Oct 13, 2020, 09:34 Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:

> Right, Haudy. But I think Bob was trying to come up with a simply way to
> factor in elevation gain. In other words, if you already know your range
> for driving on level ground, how much do you need to add to the energy
> consumption if climbing x vertical distance ?
>
> I did not try to verify his calcs. I'm curious if ambient temperature
> makes much difference. I would guess not, assuming that even an unheated
> battery would not change much in temperature during the time it takes to
> cross a mountain pass. If you stop there for 6 hours, that would be
> different.
>
> The other factor, which is probably more significant, is how much cabin
> heat you use. Of course, that could be a net gain in hot weather where
> you use less and less A/C as you gain elevation.
>
> Peri
>
> << Want to know about the effects of leaf blowers ?
> https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Haudy Kazemi via EV" 
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> Cc: "Haudy Kazemi" 
> Sent: 13-Oct-20 7:26:12 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Miles consumed for altitude
>
> >There are two major components.
> >
> >Vertical height is a major factor, as one must overcome gravity (g=9.8
> >m/s2).
> >
> >Horizontal distance traveled 'as the crow flies' is also a major factor,
> as
> >(most) road capable vehicles cannot move themselves in a direct vertical
> >manner. Consider a low sloping ramp 10 miles long vs a steep ramp 1 mile
> >long.
> >
> >Rolling resistance affects the horizontal component. Air resistance
> affects
> >all motion through the air. Vehicle aerodynamics can reduce the effects of
> >air resistance. Both are generally included in a vehicle's Wh/mile value
> >for flat terrain. An EV consuming 250 Wh/mile will use 2.5 kWh moving 10
> >miles on flat ground.
> >
> >Air resistance decreases with air density.
> >Air density decreases with altitude increases.
> >Air density decreases with temperature increases.
> >Air temperature usually decreases with altitude increases (but atmospheric
> >inversions sometimes exist).
> >
> >I'm not going to calculate any separate effects of air resistance.
> >
> >Miles of range consumed is based on the change in miles of range
> remaining.
> >Miles of range is an estimate based on the estimated battery state of
> >charge (Wh remaining) and the estimated vehicle energy consumption rate
> >(Wh/mile). Vehicle range meter algorithms can vary. Some may attempt to
> >dynamically adjust displayed range based on recent consumption. Some use a
> >fixed Wh/mile value (Tesla).
> >
> >Battery temperature affects usable battery capacity, and might be a factor
> >in a specific vehicle's guess-o-meter range estimator, but that is another
> >complication that I also won't calculate because it isn't generalizable.
> >
> >
> >h = 1000' = 304.8 meters
> >m = 2k lb car = 907.2 kg
> >m = 3.5k lb car =1587.6 kg
> >m = 5k lb car = 2268 kg
> >3600 Joules = 1 Wh
> >
> >E = mgh
> >(using kg, Earth's gravity, meters)
> >
> >2k lb car
> >E = 907.2*9.8*304.8 = 2709843 Joules = 753 Wh
> >
> >3.5k lb car
> >E = 1587.6*9.8*304.8 = 4742225 Joules = 1317 Wh
> >
> >5k lb car
> >E = 2268*9.8*304.8 = 6774607 Joules = 1881 Wh
> >
> >1000' vertical on a 6.3% grade is 3 miles horizontal. Pikes peak averages
> >6.6%.
> >
> >Assuming a 250 Wh/mile 3.5k lb EV on the slope mentioned above:
> >3 miles*250=750 Wh
> >750+1317=2067 Wh
> >2067/250=8.27 miles consumed on range estimate.
> >
> >Assuming a 333.3 Wh/mile 5k lb EV on the slope mentioned above:
> >3 miles*333.3=1000 Wh
> >1000+1881=2881 Wh
> >2881/333.3=5.65 miles consumed on range estimate.
> >
> >The miles of range consumed results will vary based on EV weight (less to
> >lift), EV effici

Re: [EVDL] Miles consumed for altitude

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Right, Haudy. But I think Bob was trying to come up with a simply way to 
factor in elevation gain. In other words, if you already know your range 
for driving on level ground, how much do you need to add to the energy 
consumption if climbing x vertical distance ?


I did not try to verify his calcs. I'm curious if ambient temperature 
makes much difference. I would guess not, assuming that even an unheated 
battery would not change much in temperature during the time it takes to 
cross a mountain pass. If you stop there for 6 hours, that would be 
different.


The other factor, which is probably more significant, is how much cabin 
heat you use. Of course, that could be a net gain in hot weather where 
you use less and less A/C as you gain elevation.


Peri

<< Want to know about the effects of leaf blowers ? 
https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>


-- Original Message --
From: "Haudy Kazemi via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Haudy Kazemi" 
Sent: 13-Oct-20 7:26:12 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Miles consumed for altitude


There are two major components.

Vertical height is a major factor, as one must overcome gravity (g=9.8
m/s2).

Horizontal distance traveled 'as the crow flies' is also a major factor, as
(most) road capable vehicles cannot move themselves in a direct vertical
manner. Consider a low sloping ramp 10 miles long vs a steep ramp 1 mile
long.

Rolling resistance affects the horizontal component. Air resistance affects
all motion through the air. Vehicle aerodynamics can reduce the effects of
air resistance. Both are generally included in a vehicle's Wh/mile value
for flat terrain. An EV consuming 250 Wh/mile will use 2.5 kWh moving 10
miles on flat ground.

Air resistance decreases with air density.
Air density decreases with altitude increases.
Air density decreases with temperature increases.
Air temperature usually decreases with altitude increases (but atmospheric
inversions sometimes exist).

I'm not going to calculate any separate effects of air resistance.

Miles of range consumed is based on the change in miles of range remaining.
Miles of range is an estimate based on the estimated battery state of
charge (Wh remaining) and the estimated vehicle energy consumption rate
(Wh/mile). Vehicle range meter algorithms can vary. Some may attempt to
dynamically adjust displayed range based on recent consumption. Some use a
fixed Wh/mile value (Tesla).

Battery temperature affects usable battery capacity, and might be a factor
in a specific vehicle's guess-o-meter range estimator, but that is another
complication that I also won't calculate because it isn't generalizable.


h = 1000' = 304.8 meters
m = 2k lb car = 907.2 kg
m = 3.5k lb car =1587.6 kg
m = 5k lb car = 2268 kg
3600 Joules = 1 Wh

E = mgh
(using kg, Earth's gravity, meters)

2k lb car
E = 907.2*9.8*304.8 = 2709843 Joules = 753 Wh

3.5k lb car
E = 1587.6*9.8*304.8 = 4742225 Joules = 1317 Wh

5k lb car
E = 2268*9.8*304.8 = 6774607 Joules = 1881 Wh

1000' vertical on a 6.3% grade is 3 miles horizontal. Pikes peak averages
6.6%.

Assuming a 250 Wh/mile 3.5k lb EV on the slope mentioned above:
3 miles*250=750 Wh
750+1317=2067 Wh
2067/250=8.27 miles consumed on range estimate.

Assuming a 333.3 Wh/mile 5k lb EV on the slope mentioned above:
3 miles*333.3=1000 Wh
1000+1881=2881 Wh
2881/333.3=5.65 miles consumed on range estimate.

The miles of range consumed results will vary based on EV weight (less to
lift), EV efficiency (better Wh/mile, say from lower weight, better aero
and lower rolling resistance), and grade (steeper slopes have a shorter
horizontal component).

Weight dominates the climbing math, (except in the case of long low slope
ramps where the horizontal distance is the biggest factor). More efficient
vehicles may see more 'miles of range consumed' when climbing, if their
increase in efficiency on the flat is due to factors other than just
reducing mass. As such they would use less energy while driving around.
It's just that those other efficiency increases don't help reduce the
direct load increases from carrying mass M up height H.

Similar things happen when looking at mpgs while towing with an efficient
vehicle vs. a traditional vehicle. Tow vehicle energy consumption (when not
towing) doesn't change the rolling resistance or aerodynamics of a trailer
(which together determine most of the additional energy consumption
requirements).


On Tue, Oct 13, 2020, 00:22 Mark Abramowitz via EV 
wrote:


 Wouldn’t temperature have an impact on what that range drop would be?

 - Mark

 Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

 > On Oct 12, 2020, at 9:31 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
 wrote:
 >
 > I saw a reference to 7 miles or so range loss for each 1000' of
 elevation
 > rise.
 > I calculated about 4 miles for raising a 2000 Lb car 1000'.
 > Hummh, VOLT weighs 3500 lBs, so I guess that is in the ballpark of 6
 > miles
 >
 

Re: [EVDL] Miles consumed for altitude

[Haudy Kazemi via EV]

There are two major components.

Vertical height is a major factor, as one must overcome gravity (g=9.8
m/s2).

Horizontal distance traveled 'as the crow flies' is also a major factor, as
(most) road capable vehicles cannot move themselves in a direct vertical
manner. Consider a low sloping ramp 10 miles long vs a steep ramp 1 mile
long.

Rolling resistance affects the horizontal component. Air resistance affects
all motion through the air. Vehicle aerodynamics can reduce the effects of
air resistance. Both are generally included in a vehicle's Wh/mile value
for flat terrain. An EV consuming 250 Wh/mile will use 2.5 kWh moving 10
miles on flat ground.

Air resistance decreases with air density.
Air density decreases with altitude increases.
Air density decreases with temperature increases.
Air temperature usually decreases with altitude increases (but atmospheric
inversions sometimes exist).

I'm not going to calculate any separate effects of air resistance.

Miles of range consumed is based on the change in miles of range remaining.
Miles of range is an estimate based on the estimated battery state of
charge (Wh remaining) and the estimated vehicle energy consumption rate
(Wh/mile). Vehicle range meter algorithms can vary. Some may attempt to
dynamically adjust displayed range based on recent consumption. Some use a
fixed Wh/mile value (Tesla).

Battery temperature affects usable battery capacity, and might be a factor
in a specific vehicle's guess-o-meter range estimator, but that is another
complication that I also won't calculate because it isn't generalizable.


h = 1000' = 304.8 meters
m = 2k lb car = 907.2 kg
m = 3.5k lb car =1587.6 kg
m = 5k lb car = 2268 kg
3600 Joules = 1 Wh

E = mgh
(using kg, Earth's gravity, meters)

2k lb car
E = 907.2*9.8*304.8 = 2709843 Joules = 753 Wh

3.5k lb car
E = 1587.6*9.8*304.8 = 4742225 Joules = 1317 Wh

5k lb car
E = 2268*9.8*304.8 = 6774607 Joules = 1881 Wh

1000' vertical on a 6.3% grade is 3 miles horizontal. Pikes peak averages
6.6%.

Assuming a 250 Wh/mile 3.5k lb EV on the slope mentioned above:
3 miles*250=750 Wh
750+1317=2067 Wh
2067/250=8.27 miles consumed on range estimate.

Assuming a 333.3 Wh/mile 5k lb EV on the slope mentioned above:
3 miles*333.3=1000 Wh
1000+1881=2881 Wh
2881/333.3=5.65 miles consumed on range estimate.

The miles of range consumed results will vary based on EV weight (less to
lift), EV efficiency (better Wh/mile, say from lower weight, better aero
and lower rolling resistance), and grade (steeper slopes have a shorter
horizontal component).

Weight dominates the climbing math, (except in the case of long low slope
ramps where the horizontal distance is the biggest factor). More efficient
vehicles may see more 'miles of range consumed' when climbing, if their
increase in efficiency on the flat is due to factors other than just
reducing mass. As such they would use less energy while driving around.
It's just that those other efficiency increases don't help reduce the
direct load increases from carrying mass M up height H.

Similar things happen when looking at mpgs while towing with an efficient
vehicle vs. a traditional vehicle. Tow vehicle energy consumption (when not
towing) doesn't change the rolling resistance or aerodynamics of a trailer
(which together determine most of the additional energy consumption
requirements).


On Tue, Oct 13, 2020, 00:22 Mark Abramowitz via EV 
wrote:

> Wouldn’t temperature have an impact on what that range drop would be?
>
> - Mark
>
> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
>
> > On Oct 12, 2020, at 9:31 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> > I saw a reference to 7 miles or so range loss for each 1000' of
> elevation
> > rise.
> > I calculated about 4 miles for raising a 2000 Lb car 1000'.
> > Hummh, VOLT weighs 3500 lBs, so I guess that is in the ballpark of 6
> > miles
> >
> > ANyone seen a real reference?
> > bob
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> >
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Re: [EVDL] Miles consumed for altitude

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Wouldn’t temperature have an impact on what that range drop would be?

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Oct 12, 2020, at 9:31 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV  wrote:
> 
> I saw a reference to 7 miles or so range loss for each 1000' of elevation
> rise.
> I calculated about 4 miles for raising a 2000 Lb car 1000'.
> Hummh, VOLT weighs 3500 lBs, so I guess that is in the ballpark of 6
> miles
> 
> ANyone seen a real reference?
> bob
> -- next part --
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[EVDL] Miles consumed for altitude

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

I saw a reference to 7 miles or so range loss for each 1000' of elevation
rise.
I calculated about 4 miles for raising a 2000 Lb car 1000'.
Hummh, VOLT weighs 3500 lBs, so I guess that is in the ballpark of 6
miles

ANyone seen a real reference?
bob
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