Re: [EVDL] PG's EV Charging Plan Still Angers Industry Players ...

[Mike Nickerson via EV]

Hmm.  I never thought about it that way.  I live in a rural farming area and 
actually have 480V 3 phase power on my property to run irrigation pumps. The 
kind of pumps that supply a pivot system that waters 80 acres.  That would make 
a heck of a fast charger!

Mike


On August 4, 2016 10:59:37 AM MDT, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
>Russ Sciville via EV  wrote:
> >> Surely no-one would wish a Rapid to operate at 240v 1 ph?
>
>Most assuredly, someone will! The same guy that wants and can afford a 
>top-of-the-line luxury EV is going to want a top-of-the-line luxury
>fast 
>charger.
>
>If he's in the USA, he won't have 3-phase power in his home. But he 
>*will* have 240v 200a single-phase service. That's 48kw if you dedicate
>
>it all to the charger.
>
>So, someone is bound to offer such a charger. To make it actually work,
>
>it will have to sense the home's present power usage, and "throttle"
>the 
>charger to use whatever is available. If the home's other luxury toys 
>are using 100a, then the charger can draw 100a without tripping the
>200a 
>main breaker.
>
>Naturally, they will advertise that it "charges at *up to* 48kw to 
>recharge your Tesla in *as little as* 15 minutes!" (asterisk...)
>
>The asterisk points to tiny text that no one reads, which says "...if 
>nothing else is turned on in the house, and the Tesla isn't fully 
>discharged".
>
>Personally, if I were doing this... I'd make it a whole-house UPS with 
>its own bank of batteries. These batteries are charged slowly, during 
>off-peak hours. If you need a fast charge, they are "dumped" into the 
>EV. Or, if the AC power to your home goes off, they can provide backup 
>power until it comes back on.

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Re: [EVDL] PG's EV Charging Plan Still Angers Industry Players ...

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 4 Aug 2016 at 11:59, Lee Hart via EV wrote:

> If he's in the USA, he won't have 3-phase power in his home. But he 
> *will* have 240v 200a single-phase service. That's 48kw if you dedicate 
> it all to the charger.

These days some "mc-mansions" are being built with 400a service.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] PG's EV Charging Plan Still Angers Industry Players ...

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Tesla Power Wall is just a fancy enclosure with a small part of a Tesla pack
so it could be part of the solution that Lee sketched.
It is called power wall but it does nothing until you add a charger and an 
inverter to actually get energy in and out of the Power Wall.
I have stacks of cells in my garage, if I wire those together I too have a 
power wall, minus the fancy enclosure. In fact, I have many times more energy 
than a power wall.
As you can tell, while I love what Tesla does, the power wall is a bit 
overhyped in my opinion because it is just a box with batteries and BMS.
Buy a used Leaf pack and you have the equivalent of 2 power walls.
I have two Leaf packs sitting in my garage...

Cor van de Water 
Chief Scientist 
Proxim Wireless 
  
office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water 
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
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message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Danny Ames via EV
Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2016 10:43 AM
To: Lee Hart; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] PG's EV Charging Plan Still Angers Industry Players ...

Till we get a TSLA Power wall engineered accordingly.

  From: Lee Hart via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.evdl.org> 
 Sent: Thursday, August 4, 2016 9:59 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] PG's EV Charging Plan Still Angers Industry Players ...
   
Russ Sciville via EV<ev@lists.evdl.org>  wrote:
 >> Surely no-one would wish a Rapid to operate at 240v 1 ph?

Most assuredly, someone will! The same guy that wants and can afford a 
top-of-the-line luxury EV is going to want a top-of-the-line luxury fast 
charger.

If he's in the USA, he won't have 3-phase power in his home. But he 
*will* have 240v 200a single-phase service. That's 48kw if you dedicate 
it all to the charger.

So, someone is bound to offer such a charger. To make it actually work, 
it will have to sense the home's present power usage, and "throttle" the 
charger to use whatever is available. If the home's other luxury toys 
are using 100a, then the charger can draw 100a without tripping the 200a 
main breaker.

Naturally, they will advertise that it "charges at *up to* 48kw to 
recharge your Tesla in *as little as* 15 minutes!" (asterisk...)

The asterisk points to tiny text that no one reads, which says "...if 
nothing else is turned on in the house, and the Tesla isn't fully 
discharged".

Personally, if I were doing this... I'd make it a whole-house UPS with 
its own bank of batteries. These batteries are charged slowly, during 
off-peak hours. If you need a fast charge, they are "dumped" into the 
EV. Or, if the AC power to your home goes off, they can provide backup 
power until it comes back on.
-- 
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
        -- Antoine de Saint Exupery
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] PG's EV Charging Plan Still Angers Industry Players ...

[Danny Ames via EV]

Till we get a TSLA Power wall engineered accordingly.

  From: Lee Hart via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.evdl.org> 
 Sent: Thursday, August 4, 2016 9:59 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] PG's EV Charging Plan Still Angers Industry Players ...
   
Russ Sciville via EV<ev@lists.evdl.org>  wrote:
 >> Surely no-one would wish a Rapid to operate at 240v 1 ph?

Most assuredly, someone will! The same guy that wants and can afford a 
top-of-the-line luxury EV is going to want a top-of-the-line luxury fast 
charger.

If he's in the USA, he won't have 3-phase power in his home. But he 
*will* have 240v 200a single-phase service. That's 48kw if you dedicate 
it all to the charger.

So, someone is bound to offer such a charger. To make it actually work, 
it will have to sense the home's present power usage, and "throttle" the 
charger to use whatever is available. If the home's other luxury toys 
are using 100a, then the charger can draw 100a without tripping the 200a 
main breaker.

Naturally, they will advertise that it "charges at *up to* 48kw to 
recharge your Tesla in *as little as* 15 minutes!" (asterisk...)

The asterisk points to tiny text that no one reads, which says "...if 
nothing else is turned on in the house, and the Tesla isn't fully 
discharged".

Personally, if I were doing this... I'd make it a whole-house UPS with 
its own bank of batteries. These batteries are charged slowly, during 
off-peak hours. If you need a fast charge, they are "dumped" into the 
EV. Or, if the AC power to your home goes off, they can provide backup 
power until it comes back on.
-- 
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
        -- Antoine de Saint Exupery
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] PG's EV Charging Plan Still Angers Industry Players ...

[Lee Hart via EV]

Russ Sciville via EV  wrote:
>> Surely no-one would wish a Rapid to operate at 240v 1 ph?

Most assuredly, someone will! The same guy that wants and can afford a 
top-of-the-line luxury EV is going to want a top-of-the-line luxury fast 
charger.


If he's in the USA, he won't have 3-phase power in his home. But he 
*will* have 240v 200a single-phase service. That's 48kw if you dedicate 
it all to the charger.


So, someone is bound to offer such a charger. To make it actually work, 
it will have to sense the home's present power usage, and "throttle" the 
charger to use whatever is available. If the home's other luxury toys 
are using 100a, then the charger can draw 100a without tripping the 200a 
main breaker.


Naturally, they will advertise that it "charges at *up to* 48kw to 
recharge your Tesla in *as little as* 15 minutes!" (asterisk...)


The asterisk points to tiny text that no one reads, which says "...if 
nothing else is turned on in the house, and the Tesla isn't fully 
discharged".


Personally, if I were doing this... I'd make it a whole-house UPS with 
its own bank of batteries. These batteries are charged slowly, during 
off-peak hours. If you need a fast charge, they are "dumped" into the 
EV. Or, if the AC power to your home goes off, they can provide backup 
power until it comes back on.

--
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint Exupery
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] PG's EV Charging Plan Still Angers Industry Players ...

[John Lussmyer via EV]

On Thu Aug 04 08:44:09 PDT 2016 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>This is in the ball park of an average North American home these days.  It's 
>likely the local transformer has sufficient overcapacity for one or two 
>additional homes in a subdivision so it's possible. Not the best solution but 
>if it's all that's available not unreal either.

I could add one of those at my house.
I have a 350A feed.



--

Worlds only All Electric F-250 truck! 
http://john.casadelgato.com/Electric-Vehicles/1995-Ford-F-250

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Re: [EVDL] PG's EV Charging Plan Still Angers Industry Players ...

[Haritech (Gmail) via EV]

This is in the ball park of an average North American home these days.  It's 
likely the local transformer has sufficient overcapacity for one or two 
additional homes in a subdivision so it's possible. Not the best solution but 
if it's all that's available not unreal either. 

Lawrence

> On Aug 4, 2016, at 02:55, Russ Sciville via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> 
> Surely no-one would wish a Rapid to operate at 240v 1 ph?
> Large currents will require a larger transformer.
> All European Rapids will I am sure be operating with 3 phase power. Supply 
> cables and volt drop is dramatically smaller.
> There will be inevitable extra losses when a 240v single phase supply is 
> boosted to 400vDC as most Rapids work at. 
> 
>  From: Jim Walls via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.evdl.org> 
> Sent: Wednesday, 3 August 2016, 21:51
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] PG's EV Charging Plan Still Angers Industry Players ...
> 
> 44KW at 240V is about 185 amps (likely more because of conversion losses and 
> voltage drop).  That makes for very large wire.
>   
> Jim Walls
>   
>   
>   
>   
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] PG's EV Charging Plan Still Angers Industry Players ...

[Russ Sciville via EV]

Surely no-one would wish a Rapid to operate at 240v 1 ph?
Large currents will require a larger transformer.
All European Rapids will I am sure be operating with 3 phase power. Supply 
cables and volt drop is dramatically smaller.
There will be inevitable extra losses when a 240v single phase supply is 
boosted to 400vDC as most Rapids work at. 

  From: Jim Walls via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.evdl.org> 
 Sent: Wednesday, 3 August 2016, 21:51
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] PG's EV Charging Plan Still Angers Industry Players ...
   
44KW at 240V is about 185 amps (likely more because of conversion losses and 
voltage drop).  That makes for very large wire.
  
 Jim Walls
  
  
  
  


  
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Re: [EVDL] PG's EV Charging Plan Still Angers Industry Players ...

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 3 Aug 2016 at 13:51, Jim Walls via EV wrote:

> 44KW at 240V is about 185 amps (likely more because of conversion losses and
> voltage drop).  That makes for very large wire.

Sure, but requiring 480v service limits where you can locate chargers.  And 
in some cases it would require installing a new 3-phase service.

Llet's say you have a 250 foot run from the panel to your proposed charger 
site.  For a that distance at 240v and 185a, you'd want 3/0 to keep voltage 
drop <= 5%.  I see 3/0 THWN on Ebay for less than $2.50 per foot.  So at 
250' your wire cost for 3 conductors would be $1875.  

If you were using 480v, your current would be halved, to about 95a.  This 
could be done with much smaller wire, #2 THWN.  I'm seeing that at around $1 
per foot.  Total cost for your 250' run would then be $750.  

So the difference on a 250' run is $1125.  At 500' it would be $2250.  

To be fair, you might also have to pay more for larger diameter conduit for 
the 3/0, but I haven't figured that into the equation.  Still, how much does 
it cost to have a 480v 3-phase service installed?  For that matter, is 3-
phase 480v even available where you want to locate the charger?

I'm no expert, but it seems to me that if you want to see more high power 
charging stations in more locations as soon as possible, developing chargers 
that can operate with existing power drops is a practical way to make it 
happen.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] PG's EV Charging Plan Still Angers Industry Players ...

[Jim Walls via EV]

44KW at 240V is about 185 amps (likely more because of conversion losses and 
voltage drop).  That makes for very large wire.
  
 Jim Walls
  
  
  
  


 From: "paul dove via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 3, 2016 12:59 PM
To: "Cor van de Water" <cwa...@proxim.com>, "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
<ev@lists.evdl.org>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] PG's EV Charging Plan Still Angers Industry Players ...   
Doesn't that just defer the cost to installation? Seems like you would need 
bigger wires using half the voltage. Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 2, 2016, at 
3:55 PM, Cor van de Water via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote: > > I visited 
Electric Motor Werks in San Ramon yesterday > https://emotorwerks.com/ > and 
apparently I was the first Beta-tester of their CHAdeMO 50kW charger > that 
they have been testing in-house on their own vehicles for over 100 charging 
sessions recently and will soon release. > I do not know their pricing, but I 
suspect that it will be very competitive, probably below $10k. I do know that 
it is entirely developed in-house incl production/assembly and the concept they 
are using is quite innovative, this is the first Smart Grid enabled Fast 
Charger, so they can integrate it into their network and you can earn money 
with it (JuicePoints is one of their programs). This means that the charger can 
earn back its investment if it is used often enough. > The cool thing with this 
Fast Charger is that it only requires a standard single phase 208 or 240V 
connection which is way cheaper and easier to find than the 480 Delta 
connections that almost all other Fast Chargers require, as 480V is the 
standard for a business park service connection but it is hard to find that 
voltage elsewhere. > There is some other amazing feature of this Fast Charger 
that I rather see > that they disclose themselves, so I won't post it on here. 
> They are still in the final stages of the basic development, working on 
things such as the cooling. That is why I only saw 110 Amps into my pack > (at 
something like 390V) because they have for now limited the power to 44kW > 
while improving the cooling. > The voltage and current were reported by my Leaf 
itself via LeafSpy, so > independent from what EMW was doing (I like 
independent verification of claims). > > So, while they are not yet ready for 
release, I would certainly keep en eye out for the Fast Charger from EMW. > > 
Regards, > > Cor van de Water > Chief Scientist > Proxim Wireless > > office +1 
408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water > XoIP +31 87 784 1130 private: 
cvandewater.info > > http://www.proxim.com > > This email message (including 
any attachments) contains confidential and proprietary information of Proxim 
Wireless Corporation. If you received this message in error, please delete it 
and notify the sender. Any unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or 
copying of any part of this message is prohibited. > > > -Original 
Message- > From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of paul 
dove via EV > Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2016 12:32 PM > To: EVDL Administrator; 
Electric Vehicle Discussion List > Subject: Re: [EVDL] PG's EV Charging Plan 
Still Angers Industry Players ... > > Do you know of a DC fast charger that has 
a lower price? All the ones I looked at were in this ballpark. > > Sent from my 
iPhone > >>> On Aug 2, 2016, at 12:44 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV 
<ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote: >>> >>> On 2 Aug 2016 at 1:03, brucedp5 via EV 
wrote: >>> >>> $22 million for 1,500 EV chargers ... >> >> A charger costs 
$14,667? Seriously? Good grief. >> >>> But PG´s proposal would require all EV 
charger hosts to charge their >>> customers based on prescribed time-of-use 
rates ... >> >> I think I see what PGE are doing, but why should they get to 
stipulate what >> the CUSTOMER pays? They should bill the energy used to the 
company >> providing the chargers, on whatever terms (time of use or otherwise) 
they >> negotiate. Then it's up to the charging provider to recover that cost 
from >> its customers -- or, if they want to, from the site hosting the 
charger, or >> by some other means. >> >> Perhaps I'm just naive, and I know it 
would cost more -- but I wonder if a >> charging provider couldn't avoid all 
this power company hassle by consuming >> no grid power at all -- rather using 
PV or another alternative energy source >> to power their charging stations. >> 
>> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA >> EVDL Administrato

Re: [EVDL] PG's EV Charging Plan Still Angers Industry Players ...

[paul dove via EV]

Doesn't that just defer the cost to installation? Seems like you would need 
bigger wires using half the voltage. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 2, 2016, at 3:55 PM, Cor van de Water via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> 
> I visited Electric Motor Werks in San Ramon yesterday
> https://emotorwerks.com/
> and apparently I was the first Beta-tester of their CHAdeMO 50kW charger
> that they have been testing in-house on their own vehicles for over 100 
> charging sessions recently and will soon release.
> I do not know their pricing, but I suspect that it will be very competitive, 
> probably below $10k. I do know that it is entirely developed in-house incl 
> production/assembly and the concept they are using is quite innovative, this 
> is the first Smart Grid enabled Fast Charger, so they can integrate it into 
> their network and you can earn money with it (JuicePoints is one of their 
> programs). This means that the charger can earn back its investment if it is 
> used often enough.
> The cool thing with this Fast Charger is that it only requires a standard 
> single phase 208 or 240V connection which is way cheaper and easier to find 
> than the 480 Delta connections that almost all other Fast Chargers require, 
> as 480V is the standard for a business park service connection but it is hard 
> to find that voltage elsewhere.
> There is some other amazing feature of this Fast Charger that I rather see
> that they disclose themselves, so I won't post it on here.
> They are still in the final stages of the basic development, working on 
> things such as the cooling. That is why I only saw 110 Amps into my pack
> (at something like 390V) because they have for now limited the power to 44kW
> while improving the cooling.
> The voltage and current were reported by my Leaf itself via LeafSpy, so
> independent from what EMW was doing (I like independent verification of 
> claims).
> 
> So, while they are not yet ready for release, I would certainly keep en eye 
> out for the Fast Charger from EMW.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Cor van de Water 
> Chief Scientist 
> Proxim Wireless 
> 
> office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water 
> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 
> 
> http://www.proxim.com
> 
> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this 
> message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
> use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is 
> prohibited.
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of paul dove via EV
> Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2016 12:32 PM
> To: EVDL Administrator; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] PG's EV Charging Plan Still Angers Industry Players ...
> 
> Do you know of a DC fast charger that has a lower price? All the ones I 
> looked at were in this ballpark.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>>> On Aug 2, 2016, at 12:44 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> On 2 Aug 2016 at 1:03, brucedp5 via EV wrote:
>>> 
>>> $22 million for 1,500 EV chargers ...
>> 
>> A charger costs $14,667?  Seriously?  Good grief.
>> 
>>> But PG´s proposal would require all EV charger hosts to charge their
>>> customers based on prescribed time-of-use rates ...
>> 
>> I think I see what PGE are doing, but why should they get to stipulate what 
>> the CUSTOMER pays?  They should bill the energy used to the company 
>> providing the chargers, on whatever terms (time of use or otherwise) they 
>> negotiate.  Then it's up to the charging provider to recover that cost from 
>> its customers -- or, if they want to, from the site hosting the charger, or 
>> by some other means.
>> 
>> Perhaps I'm just naive, and I know it would cost more -- but I wonder if a 
>> charging provider couldn't avoid all this power company hassle by consuming 
>> no grid power at all -- rather using PV or another alternative energy source 
>> to power their charging stations.
>> 
>> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>> EVDL Administrator
>> 
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
>> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
>> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
>> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
>> = = = = = = = =

Re: [EVDL] PG's EV Charging Plan Still Angers Industry Players ...

[paul dove via EV]

Or more.. although I like this one better

EVTV Motor Verks Store: CHAdeMO 50kw DC-DC Charge Station, Battery Chargers, 
dcdcchargestation

|   |
|   |  |   |   |   |   |   |
| EVTV Motor Verks Store: CHAdeMO 50kw DC-DC Char... |
|  |
| View on store.evtv.me | Preview by Yahoo |
|  |
|   |



  From: EVDL Administrator via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.evdl.org> 
 Sent: Tuesday, August 2, 2016 12:44 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] PG's EV Charging Plan Still Angers Industry Players ...
   
On 2 Aug 2016 at 1:03, brucedp5 via EV wrote:

> $22 million for 1,500 EV chargers ...

A charger costs $14,667?  Seriously?  Good grief.

> But PG´s proposal would require all EV charger hosts to charge their
> customers based on prescribed time-of-use rates ... 

I think I see what PGE are doing, but why should they get to stipulate what 
the CUSTOMER pays?  They should bill the energy used to the company 
providing the chargers, on whatever terms (time of use or otherwise) they 
negotiate.  Then it's up to the charging provider to recover that cost from 
its customers -- or, if they want to, from the site hosting the charger, or 
by some other means.

Perhaps I'm just naive, and I know it would cost more -- but I wonder if a 
charging provider couldn't avoid all this power company hassle by consuming 
no grid power at all -- rather using PV or another alternative energy source 
to power their charging stations.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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Re: [EVDL] PG's EV Charging Plan Still Angers Industry Players ...

[Cor van de Water via EV]

I visited Electric Motor Werks in San Ramon yesterday
https://emotorwerks.com/
and apparently I was the first Beta-tester of their CHAdeMO 50kW charger
that they have been testing in-house on their own vehicles for over 100 
charging sessions recently and will soon release.
I do not know their pricing, but I suspect that it will be very competitive, 
probably below $10k. I do know that it is entirely developed in-house incl 
production/assembly and the concept they are using is quite innovative, this is 
the first Smart Grid enabled Fast Charger, so they can integrate it into their 
network and you can earn money with it (JuicePoints is one of their programs). 
This means that the charger can earn back its investment if it is used often 
enough.
The cool thing with this Fast Charger is that it only requires a standard 
single phase 208 or 240V connection which is way cheaper and easier to find 
than the 480 Delta connections that almost all other Fast Chargers require, as 
480V is the standard for a business park service connection but it is hard to 
find that voltage elsewhere.
There is some other amazing feature of this Fast Charger that I rather see
that they disclose themselves, so I won't post it on here.
They are still in the final stages of the basic development, working on things 
such as the cooling. That is why I only saw 110 Amps into my pack
(at something like 390V) because they have for now limited the power to 44kW
while improving the cooling.
The voltage and current were reported by my Leaf itself via LeafSpy, so
independent from what EMW was doing (I like independent verification of claims).

So, while they are not yet ready for release, I would certainly keep en eye out 
for the Fast Charger from EMW.

Regards,

Cor van de Water 
Chief Scientist 
Proxim Wireless 
  
office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water 
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this 
message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of paul dove via EV
Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2016 12:32 PM
To: EVDL Administrator; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] PG's EV Charging Plan Still Angers Industry Players ...

Do you know of a DC fast charger that has a lower price? All the ones I looked 
at were in this ballpark.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 2, 2016, at 12:44 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> 
> wrote:
> 
>> On 2 Aug 2016 at 1:03, brucedp5 via EV wrote:
>> 
>> $22 million for 1,500 EV chargers ...
> 
> A charger costs $14,667?  Seriously?  Good grief.
> 
>> But PG´s proposal would require all EV charger hosts to charge their
>> customers based on prescribed time-of-use rates ...
> 
> I think I see what PGE are doing, but why should they get to stipulate what 
> the CUSTOMER pays?  They should bill the energy used to the company 
> providing the chargers, on whatever terms (time of use or otherwise) they 
> negotiate.  Then it's up to the charging provider to recover that cost from 
> its customers -- or, if they want to, from the site hosting the charger, or 
> by some other means.
> 
> Perhaps I'm just naive, and I know it would cost more -- but I wonder if a 
> charging provider couldn't avoid all this power company hassle by consuming 
> no grid power at all -- rather using PV or another alternative energy source 
> to power their charging stations.
> 
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
> 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> 
> 
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> 

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Re: [EVDL] PG's EV Charging Plan Still Angers Industry Players ...

[Lee Hart via EV]

PG´s proposal would require all EV charger hosts to charge their
customers based on prescribed time-of-use rates ...


EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

I think I see what PGE are doing, but why should they get to stipulate what
the CUSTOMER pays?


Because they can? Or at least, they can try?

We want EVs to be a success. But in a capitalistic society, the only way 
to make a rapid change from ICE to EV is if someone can get *rich* by 
promoting the change.



Perhaps I'm just naive, and I know it would cost more -- but I wonder if a
charging provider couldn't avoid all this power company hassle by consuming
no grid power at all -- rather using PV or another alternative energy source
to power their charging stations.


They certainly *could* put PV or wind generators at or near their 
charging sites. They could include batteries to "soak up" the power when 
it's available or cheap from the grid, and then "dump it" quickly to 
fast-charge EVs.


But, is this going to produce the big quick profits they are looking for?

Also, would this violate the guaranteed monopoly that the power 
companies have written into law to prevent anyone else from selling 
power in their territory?


--
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint Exupery
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] PG's EV Charging Plan Still Angers Industry Players ...

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 2 Aug 2016 at 1:03, brucedp5 via EV wrote:

> $22 million for 1,500 EV chargers ...

A charger costs $14,667?  Seriously?  Good grief.

> But PG´s proposal would require all EV charger hosts to charge their
> customers based on prescribed time-of-use rates ... 

I think I see what PGE are doing, but why should they get to stipulate what 
the CUSTOMER pays?  They should bill the energy used to the company 
providing the chargers, on whatever terms (time of use or otherwise) they 
negotiate.  Then it's up to the charging provider to recover that cost from 
its customers -- or, if they want to, from the site hosting the charger, or 
by some other means.

Perhaps I'm just naive, and I know it would cost more -- but I wonder if a 
charging provider couldn't avoid all this power company hassle by consuming 
no grid power at all -- rather using PV or another alternative energy source 
to power their charging stations.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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[EVDL] PG's EV Charging Plan Still Angers Industry Players ...

[brucedp5 via EV]

http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/pges-ev-charging-plan-still-angers-industry-players-and-heres-their-alterna
PG’s EV Charging Plan Still Angers Industry Players—and Here’s Their
Alternative
July 26, 2016  Jeff St. John

A counter-proposal seeks to scale back scope and open up third-party
competition.

We’ve been covering the struggles between the electric-vehicle charging
industry and Pacific Gas & Electric over the California utility’s
EV-charging pilot proposal. Now there's an alternative industry proposal for
state regulators to consider, which could decide the outcome for the last
major California utility in the state without support for an EV charging
infrastructure plan.

In recent filings with the California Public Utilities Commission, groups
including the Electric Vehicle Charging Association (EVCA), EV charging
companies ChargePoint and Volta, and consumer and environmental advocacy
groups, have laid out a plan they say would allow PG to boost EV adoption
in Northern California, while avoiding what they called the most
anti-competitive aspects of the utility’s proposal.

In particular, they’ve highlighted how PG, unlike fellow California
utilities Southern California Edison and San Diego Gas & Electric, is asking
for a lot more ratepayer money to fund a rollout that could lock in utility
control over an infrastructure that’s required by law to be open to
third-party competition and innovation.

While SCE and SDG got broad EV industry buy-in for their plans, PG saw
its first $650 million plan rejected by the CPUC last year. Unfortunately,
its second proposal, filed in March, contains many of the same problems as
the first, EVCA spokesperson Damon Conklin said in an interview last week.

And because PG operates in Northern California, where one out of five of
the country’s EV owners live, “It will set an example, a very dangerous
precedent, for many other states that have adopted EV programs, and inform
policies in other states,” he said.

The groups’ alternative plan differs from PG’s latest in two key
categories. First, it asks PG to spend a lot less money and install far
fewer chargers. The alternative proposal would limit PG’s pilot to no more
than $87.4 million, or about half of the $160 million it’s seeking in its
latest revised proposal, and keep the number of Level 2 chargers to 2,500,
or one-third of the 7,500 it eventually wants to install.

Even with these reductions, it’s still more than the $45 million and 3,500
EV chargers that SDG is rolling out, or the $22 million for 1,500 EV
chargers that SCE saw approved early this year, Conklin noted. But it’s
still in line with a proposal submitted by PG last year as an alternative
to its larger-scale plan.

But PG’s plan has problems beyond its scope and cost, these groups say.
Specifically, their alternative proposal would change the structure of the
pilot in several ways its backers say will be critical to ensure it doesn’t
become a utility-controlled and innovation-constrained deployment.

Indeed, under PG’s current proposed structure, companies like ChargePoint
and Volta may not be able to participate in the utility’s rollout at all,
unless they ditch their current business models, according to government
affairs directors at the two companies.

Take Volta, a startup that’s installing EV chargers with local partners that
charge nothing for EV drivers to top off their batteries, by leveraging
advertising revenues and the value of drawing EV drivers to their locations.
“It’s free to the site host, and it’s free to the users,” Abdellah
Cherkaoui, Volta's vice president of government affairs, said in an
interview last week.

But PG’s proposal would require all EV charger hosts to charge their
customers based on prescribed time-of-use rates, a rule that would preclude
Volta from making use of its free charging model, he said. “They say they
have an inclusive model where all vendors can come in,” he said. “But we’re
not included at all.”

Similarly, EV-charging market leader ChargePoint uses different pricing
models in different settings, based on the needs of the government agencies,
businesses and other “hosts” of its EV charging systems. But under PG’s
proposed plan, “you can’t participate in this program unless you agree
you’re going to accept this time-of-use rate,” Colleen Quinn, the startup’s
vice president of government market development and public policy, said last
week.

The groups' alternative proposal would change that, by stating that "the
site host may determine the rate structure and amount charged to drivers for
EV charging services, subject to the obligation to implement a load
management plan reflecting best practices."

Quinn pointed out other differences between PG’s plan and those of its
fellow California utilities that could prevent EV-charging companies from
playing a role. For one, “the PG proposal requires separating the
procurement of the hardware from the network services,” Quinn said -- in
other words,