Re: [EVDL] [External] EVLN: Tesla-Y feels like it’s not towing anything

2020-08-20 Thread Lee Hart via EV 

paul dove via EV wrote:

  If your car reports Wh/m then just drive it while towing and record the 
consumption. The Tesla can do this. Then just divide by the battery capacity to 
get range.


Good point! Most EVs have instrumentation that provides a much easier 
way to measure power consumption, which will be directly related to 
losses. It would be easy to compare the WH/mile with and without a trailer.


Lee Hart

--
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint Exupery
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] [External] EVLN: Tesla-Y feels like it’s not towing anything

2020-08-18 Thread paul dove via EV 
 If your car reports Wh/m then just drive it while towing and record the 
consumption. The Tesla can do this. Then just divide by the battery capacity to 
get range.

On Tuesday, August 18, 2020, 11:49:14 AM CDT, Luke Scharf via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 We need a way to rate the trailer's drag, as well as its weight.

Measuring the cross sectional area of the trailer seems like a good proxy
for drag, as the Cd won't very as much for trailers as it does for cars.

As many people on this list already know, there are some classic
engineering formulas which could be used to calculate a useful
approximation of the trailer's energy cost to the tow vehicle in
steady-state highway driving.  If I get a moment, I'll build a
spreadsheet-toy to see how well I can put it all together.

-Luke

On Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 11:12 AM Willie via EV  wrote:

>
>
> On 8/16/20 11:24 PM, George Mullineaux via EV wrote:
> > But I never doubted the ability of an EV with 2,000+ pounds of torque
> towing. It is the manufacturers that will not rate their vehicles with a
> comparable towing weight. Let me go out on a limb and claim that the reason
> for this is that towing will greatly impact range. As has been mentioned
> many times in posts, that is the holy grail of EVs. If Tesla, Audi, Ford,
> Rivian, etc. would give us the range while unloaded, and a range while
> fully loaded and another while towing a respectable weight; they could then
> rate their vehicles for towing and hauling so that the owner would not void
> the warranty. Or maybe that is another underlying reason, the warranty.
>
> To rate range, you would have to have some standard load.  Tires,
> weight, shape, etc.
>
> My experience is that range reduction from towing can be near zero up to
> near 50%.
>
> Tesla, especially, has been reluctant to bless towing.  I ignore them.
> The early Ss did seem to have rather fragile drive trains which would
> explain Tesla discouraging towing.  But the Semi is supposed to use drive
> trains from 3s.
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] [External] EVLN: Tesla-Y feels like it’s not towing anything

2020-08-18 Thread Lee Hart via EV 

Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

Won't it also make a large difference overall, depending on the tow
vehicle? If the trailer fits in the trailing vacuum, I would think
there would be less resistance than if it were punching a new hole. I
suspect this could have a larger difference than the frontal area and Cd.


But of course! To find the difference, you would do the roll-down test 
with just the tow vehicle, and then with the tow vehicle + trailer. Then 
you could calculate the difference in drag coefficients.


Aerodynamics is complicated, and does not lend itself to intuitive 
guesses (unless you are an aerodynamics expert). In special cases, a 
trailer can even *reduce* the aerodynamic drag of a vehicle! For 
example, a teardrop trailer can "fill in" the hole behind a truck or van 
with a squared-off back. But you still consume more energy due to the 
trailer's weight and rolling resistance.


Lee Hart

--
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint Exupery
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] [External] EVLN: Tesla-Y feels like it’s not towing anything

2020-08-18 Thread Peri Hartman via EV 
Won't it also make a large difference overall, depending on the tow 
vehicle ? If the trailer fits in the trailing vacuum, I would think 
there would be less resistance than if it were punching a new hole. I 
suspect this could have a larger difference than the frontal area and 
Cd.


Peri

<< Want to know about the effects of leaf blowers ? 
https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>


-- Original Message --
From: "Lee Hart via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Lee Hart" 
Sent: 18-Aug-20 11:09:11 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] [External] EVLN: Tesla-Y feels like it’s not towing 
anything



Luke Scharf via EV wrote:

We need a way to rate the trailer's drag, as well as its weight.


One possibility is a roll-down test. Accellerate the vehicle to speed, put it 
in neutral, and measure the time and/or distance to coast down to a lower speed.

Obviously, do it on flat ground when there is no wind. It's best to repeat the 
test in both directions to cancel out any effects of wind or incline.

If you want more data, you could record the speed and distance every second or 
so right down to a standstill. The drag of a vehicle has 3 factors: friction 
(constant), rolling (proportional to speed), and aerodynamic (proportional to 
speed squared). With some math, the 3 factors can be separated out. This can 
give you the actual aerodynamic drag coefficient.

Lee Hart

-- A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint Exupery
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] [External] EVLN: Tesla-Y feels like it’s not towing anything

2020-08-18 Thread Lee Hart via EV 

Luke Scharf via EV wrote:

We need a way to rate the trailer's drag, as well as its weight.


One possibility is a roll-down test. Accellerate the vehicle to speed, 
put it in neutral, and measure the time and/or distance to coast down to 
a lower speed.


Obviously, do it on flat ground when there is no wind. It's best to 
repeat the test in both directions to cancel out any effects of wind or 
incline.


If you want more data, you could record the speed and distance every 
second or so right down to a standstill. The drag of a vehicle has 3 
factors: friction (constant), rolling (proportional to speed), and 
aerodynamic (proportional to speed squared). With some math, the 3 
factors can be separated out. This can give you the actual aerodynamic 
drag coefficient.


Lee Hart

--
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint Exupery
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] [External] EVLN: Tesla-Y feels like it’s not towing anything

2020-08-18 Thread Luke Scharf via EV 
We need a way to rate the trailer's drag, as well as its weight.

Measuring the cross sectional area of the trailer seems like a good proxy
for drag, as the Cd won't very as much for trailers as it does for cars.

As many people on this list already know, there are some classic
engineering formulas which could be used to calculate a useful
approximation of the trailer's energy cost to the tow vehicle in
steady-state highway driving.  If I get a moment, I'll build a
spreadsheet-toy to see how well I can put it all together.

-Luke

On Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 11:12 AM Willie via EV  wrote:

>
>
> On 8/16/20 11:24 PM, George Mullineaux via EV wrote:
> > But I never doubted the ability of an EV with 2,000+ pounds of torque
> towing. It is the manufacturers that will not rate their vehicles with a
> comparable towing weight. Let me go out on a limb and claim that the reason
> for this is that towing will greatly impact range. As has been mentioned
> many times in posts, that is the holy grail of EVs. If Tesla, Audi, Ford,
> Rivian, etc. would give us the range while unloaded, and a range while
> fully loaded and another while towing a respectable weight; they could then
> rate their vehicles for towing and hauling so that the owner would not void
> the warranty. Or maybe that is another underlying reason, the warranty.
>
> To rate range, you would have to have some standard load.  Tires,
> weight, shape, etc.
>
> My experience is that range reduction from towing can be near zero up to
> near 50%.
>
> Tesla, especially, has been reluctant to bless towing.  I ignore them.
> The early Ss did seem to have rather fragile drive trains which would
> explain Tesla discouraging towing.  But the Semi is supposed to use drive
> trains from 3s.
>
>
> ___
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> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] [External] EVLN: Tesla-Y feels like it’s not towing anything

2020-08-17 Thread Luke Scharf via EV 
 towed a travel trailer with a GMC Sierra Hybrid this weekend.  This is one
of the GM 2-Mode Hybrid vehicles.

My MPG and driving range fell to about 50% with the trailer attached to the
big hybrid -- which is about what people who've towed with the Model X have
reported.  Thinking through the feel of my setup this weekend, I feel like
most of the range drop was due to the aerodynamic drag of the trailer
(which had a large cross-sectional area).

I definitely felt the aerodynamic drag of the trailer more than the weight
when traveling at highway speeds.

The low-speed controllability of the eCVT makes for a really nice tow
vehicle.  Hitching up and maneuvering the trailer was easier with this
truck than with any other tow-vehicle I've ever used.  At low speed/power
settings, the eCVT part of the 2-mode system dominates the driving feel,
but it feels more like a conventional automatic at higher speed/power.

An electric tow vehicle could easily beat the big hybrid in terms of
low-speed controllability, but would likely be smoother and quieter at
highway speeds.  The 50% reduction in range seems to be about par for the
course.

-Luke


On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 3:27 AM George Mullineaux via EV 
wrote:

> But I never doubted the ability of an EV with 2,000+ pounds of torque
> towing. It is the manufacturers that will not rate their vehicles with a
> comparable towing weight. Let me go out on a limb and claim that the reason
> for this is that towing will greatly impact range. As has been mentioned
> many times in posts, that is the holy grail of EVs. If Tesla, Audi, Ford,
> Rivian, etc. would give us the range while unloaded, and a range while
> fully loaded and another while towing a respectable weight; they could then
> rate their vehicles for towing and hauling so that the owner would not void
> the warranty. Or maybe that is another underlying reason, the warranty.
>
> George Mullineaux
> 3rd Shift Wrench Monkey
> Pinnacle Corrugated, Landis, N.C.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: EV  On Behalf Of evln via EV
> Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 23:27
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Cc: evln 
> Subject: [External] [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla-Y feels like it’s not towing
> anything
>
>
>
>
> https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2F%2Fthedriven.io%2F2020%2F08%2F10%2Ffeels-like-its-not-towing-anything-video-of-model-y-shows-powerful-towing-capability%2F__%3B!!CvttNVKvMsQ7MGjF!s_v-NSm4DveFnqwToIemStXIe4LQThqS8gYqFZUhqn2VLq-Z8hdV11YcWI-_WCV62zJmLrQ64To6LZQ%24data=02%7C01%7Cgeorgemullineaux%40pinnaclecorrugated.com%7Ca528f420d24748c921f108d8425d5f40%7C976178cc71b24588b870337d092cdfe3%7C0%7C0%7C637332316083464575sdata=%2FMJg4Nd0bTMjEFi%2BQJI%2BHs32Fc85vFVIi570NIndWNc%3Dreserved=0
> “Feels like it’s not towing anything”: Video of Model Y shows powerful
> towing capability August 10, 2020 ... The claim that electric vehicles
> cannot tow trailers, caravans and boats has been proven wrong ... a Tesla
> Model Y has been captured on camera bringing a speed boat out of the water,
> with the owner reportedly saying it was so effortless that it felt “like
> it’s not towing anything“ ...
>
> https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2F%2Fthedriven.io%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2020%2F08%2Fmodel-y-towing-boat.jpg__%3B!!CvttNVKvMsQ7MGjF!s_v-NSm4DveFnqwToIemStXIe4LQThqS8gYqFZUhqn2VLq-Z8hdV11YcWI-_WCV62zJmLrQ64L127Uw%24data=02%7C01%7Cgeorgemullineaux%40pinnaclecorrugated.com%7Ca528f420d24748c921f108d8425d5f40%7C976178cc71b24588b870337d092cdfe3%7C0%7C0%7C637332316083464575sdata=KWZ9hjJLCeFFbN32w6Io82e5ucm5kiMVtlei5k3pbBM%3Dreserved=0
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>
> + (Tesla not worried about Lucid EV's range)
>
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> Why Tesla shouldn't worry about Lucid's 517-mile range
> The Long Range Plus variant has done wonders for EV competition and has
> solidified Tesla's position as the leader in electric car development. It
> is
> important to ...
> ...
>
> https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2F%2Fdriving.ca%2Fauto-news%2Fnews%2Findependent-tests-show-lucid-evs-range-approaches-830-km-besting-tesla__%3B!!CvttNVKvMsQ7MGjF!s_v-NSm4DveFnqwToIemStXIe4LQThqS8gYqFZUhqn2VLq-Z8hdV11YcWI-_WCV62zJmLrQ6Vb6RLRs%24data=02%7C01%7Cgeorgemullineaux%40pinnaclecorrugated.com%7Ca528f420d24748c921f108d8425d5f40%7C976178cc71b24588b870337d092cdfe3%7C0%7C0%7C637332316083464575sdata=CfxQcKxFGqHln5YHNr00z4P%2FclnsUv%2FQCw%2Bkr6aeEq0%3Dreserved=0

Re: [EVDL] [External] EVLN: Tesla-Y feels like it’s not towing anything

2020-08-17 Thread Willie via EV 




On 8/16/20 11:24 PM, George Mullineaux via EV wrote:

But I never doubted the ability of an EV with 2,000+ pounds of torque towing. 
It is the manufacturers that will not rate their vehicles with a comparable 
towing weight. Let me go out on a limb and claim that the reason for this is 
that towing will greatly impact range. As has been mentioned many times in 
posts, that is the holy grail of EVs. If Tesla, Audi, Ford, Rivian, etc. would 
give us the range while unloaded, and a range while fully loaded and another 
while towing a respectable weight; they could then rate their vehicles for 
towing and hauling so that the owner would not void the warranty. Or maybe that 
is another underlying reason, the warranty.


To rate range, you would have to have some standard load.  Tires, 
weight, shape, etc.


My experience is that range reduction from towing can be near zero up to 
near 50%.


Tesla, especially, has been reluctant to bless towing.  I ignore them. 
The early Ss did seem to have rather fragile drive trains which would 
explain Tesla discouraging towing.  But the Semi is supposed to use 
drive trains from 3s.



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Re: [EVDL] [External] EVLN: Tesla-Y feels like it’s not towing anything

2020-08-17 Thread George Mullineaux via EV 
But I never doubted the ability of an EV with 2,000+ pounds of torque towing. 
It is the manufacturers that will not rate their vehicles with a comparable 
towing weight. Let me go out on a limb and claim that the reason for this is 
that towing will greatly impact range. As has been mentioned many times in 
posts, that is the holy grail of EVs. If Tesla, Audi, Ford, Rivian, etc. would 
give us the range while unloaded, and a range while fully loaded and another 
while towing a respectable weight; they could then rate their vehicles for 
towing and hauling so that the owner would not void the warranty. Or maybe that 
is another underlying reason, the warranty.

George Mullineaux
3rd Shift Wrench Monkey
Pinnacle Corrugated, Landis, N.C.

-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of evln via EV
Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 23:27
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: evln 
Subject: [External] [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla-Y feels like it’s not towing anything



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“Feels like it’s not towing anything”: Video of Model Y shows powerful towing 
capability August 10, 2020 ... The claim that electric vehicles cannot tow 
trailers, caravans and boats has been proven wrong ... a Tesla Model Y has been 
captured on camera bringing a speed boat out of the water, with the owner 
reportedly saying it was so effortless that it felt “like it’s not towing 
anything“ ...
https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2F%2Fthedriven.io%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2020%2F08%2Fmodel-y-towing-boat.jpg__%3B!!CvttNVKvMsQ7MGjF!s_v-NSm4DveFnqwToIemStXIe4LQThqS8gYqFZUhqn2VLq-Z8hdV11YcWI-_WCV62zJmLrQ64L127Uw%24data=02%7C01%7Cgeorgemullineaux%40pinnaclecorrugated.com%7Ca528f420d24748c921f108d8425d5f40%7C976178cc71b24588b870337d092cdfe3%7C0%7C0%7C637332316083464575sdata=KWZ9hjJLCeFFbN32w6Io82e5ucm5kiMVtlei5k3pbBM%3Dreserved=0
 


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Why Tesla shouldn't worry about Lucid's 517-mile range
The Long Range Plus variant has done wonders for EV competition and has
solidified Tesla's position as the leader in electric car development. It is
important to ...
...
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