Re: [EVDL] NEV is a stoopid idea. Moped is better

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

You can talk all you want about an NEV but it is basically a car without the 
speed. An enclosed 3 passenger moped is so much cheaper and practical. Moped 
license is more valuable since it is one time only and you get to go 5mph 
faster. Cheaper insurance. They start around $2.000 dollars. No NEV is that 
cheap. 
https://www.google.com/search?q=three+wheel+electric+car+chinese+imports=firefox-b-1-d=1302=513=shop=ALeKk01_Cp4qbj4cGpZF2O60l0_6KsBiYw%3A1621997706923=iritYLj_N5PO0PEPp5mgCA=three+wheel+electric+car+chinese+imports_lcp=Cgtwcm9kdWN0cy1jYxAMOgQIIxAnOgQIIRAKULdkWJNyYPiHAWgAcAB4AIABggGIAZoHkgEDOS4xmAEAoAEBwAEB=products-cc=0ahUKEwi47JaprObwAhUTJzQIHacMCAEQ4dUDCAs
  Lawrence Rhodes




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Re: [EVDL] NEV is a stoopid idea. Moped is better

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

It’s amazing what civil unrest accomplished in China.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On May 24, 2021, at 3:14 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> On 24 May 2021 at 11:26, Larry Gales via EV wrote:
> 
>> The smaller you make a gas vehicle, the uglier, noisier, dirtier, they
>> become . In addition, they are proportionally less efficient.  So small gas
>> vehicles are generally a bad idea: they are responsible for much of the
>> horrific pollution you see in much of asia.
> 
> This is true in practice, but I don't think it's inherent to their size.  
> They COULD be clean and quiet, even with ICEVs.  However, that's usually not 
> required by law, so the manufacturers don't bother.  
> 
> From what I've read, the engines usually fitted are of crude design, with 
> little or no emission control.  I'd guess air cooled with poppet or pushrod 
> valves, simple carburetors, and mechanical ignition systems.  I know that a 
> fair number of Tuktuks are powered by two-stroke engines.  Some, I think, 
> are Diesel. They're gross polluters, and noisy to boot.
> 
> The reason that EV is better for these uses is the same reason that it's 
> better for all road transportation.  The only difference is that normal
> passenger ICEVs have evolved significantly and have mandated emission 
> controls, so the improvement for them isn't quite as dramatic.
> 
>> Right now, the only type of micro electric vehicle that is surging in
>> a major way, is the electric bike. But I believe that NEVs should also
>> become a major part of the mix.  
> 
> E-bikes were the first EV sucess story of our time, from about the 1990s.  
> 
> IMO the key to that success is that they're cheap.  That's because they sell 
> in large volumes in Asia, particularly China.  Economy of scale, 
> competition, and cheap sweatshop labor have driven the price down to where 
> you can get an fairly decent E-bike for well under $1k.
> 
> E-bikes are so cheap that for many middle income folks they can almost be an 
> impulse purchase.  It's a hobby or fun weekend vehicle at almost a toy 
> price.  If you're the right kind of person, it can even be a commuter.
> 
> But the most important factor is that E-bike cost is in line with their
> utility.  Yeah, that $700 E-bike does a lot less than a car, but it costs 
> about 1/30 as much as an "entry level" car.
> 
> An NEV also does less than a car, but more than an E-bike.  For one thing, 
> it keeps you dry!  (Or should.)  You should be able to sell one if you price 
> it in line with its level of utility.  
> 
> And that's a problem.  I can tell you that in the early 2000s, NEVs priced 
> at (IIRC) $7-10k didn't sell in significant numbers.  Part of that may be 
> because they looked like (and were) glorified golf cars.  But I think that a 
> big reason is that they were just too close to the price of low-end ICEVs, 
> while being far less practical and comfortable.
> 
> Still true today.  Right now in France you can get a basic 2-seat 5hp 
> Renault Twizy EV (doors optional!) that will go 28mph.  It costs just over 
> 10k euros.  Or you can buy a 4-seat Twingo ICEV for 13.5k euros, close the 
> (standard) doors, and take it up to 100mph, if you're brave enough. 
> 
> You know who in France buys a Twizy instead of a Twingo?  People who've lost 
> their driving licenses from drunk driving, because in France you can drive a 
> 28mph car without a driving license.  (Really.)  
> 
> It's not just perception of value.  An NEV *is* low valiue compared to the 
> cheapest ICEV.  It only carries 2 people and minimal cargo.  You can't take 
> it on most roads.  To get across town without the innerbelt, you have to 
> pull out the map and plot a course that here in the Midwest often goes 
> through rough neighborhoods - at 25 mph.  
> 
> So if an NEV is going to have anything close to the success that E-bikes 
> have had, it has to be cheap, in line with its value as transportation.
> 
> How cheap?  I don't know.  You'd have to study the market, survey vehicle 
> buyers.  But a wild, irresponsible guess might be around $5k, maybe $7k.
> 
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> 
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
> I think [Rio de Janeiro mayor Marcelo] Crivella will be 
> remembered as a mayor to be forgotten.
> 
> -- Alvaro Costa e Silva
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] NEV is a stoopid idea. Moped is better

[Larry Gales via EV]

Yes, these micro cars, such as the Elf and Tactical Elf are way too
expensive, but that is almost certainly due to their limited production.
But their advantages in an urban environment in terms of operating cost,
quietness, dramatically reduced energy, and traffic/parking space should
draw attention from those who address climate change to bring about the
nec[cessary cost reductions.

By the way, although e-Bikes do not come with built-in weather protection,
they do allow you to be comfortable in cold rainy weather.  With a human
powered bike, you can never be comfortable in cold, rainy weather because
if you dress to be warm and dry you will be soaked with sweat from within
after the first hill.  But ebikes (at least those with sufficient power,
such as 750 watts)  give you almost complete control over how much effort
you use, so you never have to sweat unless you want to.

On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 3:14 PM EVDL Administrator via EV 
wrote:

> On 24 May 2021 at 11:26, Larry Gales via EV wrote:
>
> > The smaller you make a gas vehicle, the uglier, noisier, dirtier, they
> > become . In addition, they are proportionally less efficient.  So small
> gas
> > vehicles are generally a bad idea: they are responsible for much of the
> > horrific pollution you see in much of asia.
>
> This is true in practice, but I don't think it's inherent to their size.
> They COULD be clean and quiet, even with ICEVs.  However, that's usually
> not
> required by law, so the manufacturers don't bother.
>
> From what I've read, the engines usually fitted are of crude design, with
> little or no emission control.  I'd guess air cooled with poppet or
> pushrod
> valves, simple carburetors, and mechanical ignition systems.  I know that
> a
> fair number of Tuktuks are powered by two-stroke engines.  Some, I think,
> are Diesel. They're gross polluters, and noisy to boot.
>
> The reason that EV is better for these uses is the same reason that it's
> better for all road transportation.  The only difference is that normal
> passenger ICEVs have evolved significantly and have mandated emission
> controls, so the improvement for them isn't quite as dramatic.
>
> > Right now, the only type of micro electric vehicle that is surging in
> > a major way, is the electric bike. But I believe that NEVs should also
> > become a major part of the mix.
>
> E-bikes were the first EV sucess story of our time, from about the 1990s.
>
> IMO the key to that success is that they're cheap.  That's because they
> sell
> in large volumes in Asia, particularly China.  Economy of scale,
> competition, and cheap sweatshop labor have driven the price down to where
> you can get an fairly decent E-bike for well under $1k.
>
> E-bikes are so cheap that for many middle income folks they can almost be
> an
> impulse purchase.  It's a hobby or fun weekend vehicle at almost a toy
> price.  If you're the right kind of person, it can even be a commuter.
>
> But the most important factor is that E-bike cost is in line with their
> utility.  Yeah, that $700 E-bike does a lot less than a car, but it costs
> about 1/30 as much as an "entry level" car.
>
> An NEV also does less than a car, but more than an E-bike.  For one thing,
> it keeps you dry!  (Or should.)  You should be able to sell one if you
> price
> it in line with its level of utility.
>
> And that's a problem.  I can tell you that in the early 2000s, NEVs priced
> at (IIRC) $7-10k didn't sell in significant numbers.  Part of that may be
> because they looked like (and were) glorified golf cars.  But I think that
> a
> big reason is that they were just too close to the price of low-end ICEVs,
> while being far less practical and comfortable.
>
> Still true today.  Right now in France you can get a basic 2-seat 5hp
> Renault Twizy EV (doors optional!) that will go 28mph.  It costs just over
> 10k euros.  Or you can buy a 4-seat Twingo ICEV for 13.5k euros, close the
> (standard) doors, and take it up to 100mph, if you're brave enough.
>
> You know who in France buys a Twizy instead of a Twingo?  People who've
> lost
> their driving licenses from drunk driving, because in France you can drive
> a
> 28mph car without a driving license.  (Really.)
>
> It's not just perception of value.  An NEV *is* low valiue compared to the
> cheapest ICEV.  It only carries 2 people and minimal cargo.  You can't
> take
> it on most roads.  To get across town without the innerbelt, you have to
> pull out the map and plot a course that here in the Midwest often goes
> through rough neighborhoods - at 25 mph.
>
> So if an NEV is going to have anything close to the success that E-bikes
> have had, it has to be cheap, in line with its value as transportation.
>
> How cheap?  I don't know.  You'd have to study the market, survey vehicle
> buyers.  But a wild, irresponsible guess might be around $5k, maybe $7k.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist 

Re: [EVDL] NEV is a stoopid idea. Moped is better

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 24 May 2021 at 11:26, Larry Gales via EV wrote:

> The smaller you make a gas vehicle, the uglier, noisier, dirtier, they
> become . In addition, they are proportionally less efficient.  So small gas
> vehicles are generally a bad idea: they are responsible for much of the
> horrific pollution you see in much of asia.

This is true in practice, but I don't think it's inherent to their size.  
They COULD be clean and quiet, even with ICEVs.  However, that's usually not 
required by law, so the manufacturers don't bother.  

>From what I've read, the engines usually fitted are of crude design, with 
little or no emission control.  I'd guess air cooled with poppet or pushrod 
valves, simple carburetors, and mechanical ignition systems.  I know that a 
fair number of Tuktuks are powered by two-stroke engines.  Some, I think, 
are Diesel. They're gross polluters, and noisy to boot.

The reason that EV is better for these uses is the same reason that it's 
better for all road transportation.  The only difference is that normal 
passenger ICEVs have evolved significantly and have mandated emission 
controls, so the improvement for them isn't quite as dramatic.

> Right now, the only type of micro electric vehicle that is surging in
> a major way, is the electric bike. But I believe that NEVs should also
> become a major part of the mix.  

E-bikes were the first EV sucess story of our time, from about the 1990s.  

IMO the key to that success is that they're cheap.  That's because they sell 
in large volumes in Asia, particularly China.  Economy of scale, 
competition, and cheap sweatshop labor have driven the price down to where 
you can get an fairly decent E-bike for well under $1k.

E-bikes are so cheap that for many middle income folks they can almost be an 
impulse purchase.  It's a hobby or fun weekend vehicle at almost a toy 
price.  If you're the right kind of person, it can even be a commuter.

But the most important factor is that E-bike cost is in line with their 
utility.  Yeah, that $700 E-bike does a lot less than a car, but it costs 
about 1/30 as much as an "entry level" car.

An NEV also does less than a car, but more than an E-bike.  For one thing, 
it keeps you dry!  (Or should.)  You should be able to sell one if you price 
it in line with its level of utility.  

And that's a problem.  I can tell you that in the early 2000s, NEVs priced 
at (IIRC) $7-10k didn't sell in significant numbers.  Part of that may be 
because they looked like (and were) glorified golf cars.  But I think that a 
big reason is that they were just too close to the price of low-end ICEVs, 
while being far less practical and comfortable.

Still true today.  Right now in France you can get a basic 2-seat 5hp 
Renault Twizy EV (doors optional!) that will go 28mph.  It costs just over 
10k euros.  Or you can buy a 4-seat Twingo ICEV for 13.5k euros, close the 
(standard) doors, and take it up to 100mph, if you're brave enough. 

You know who in France buys a Twizy instead of a Twingo?  People who've lost 
their driving licenses from drunk driving, because in France you can drive a 
28mph car without a driving license.  (Really.)  

It's not just perception of value.  An NEV *is* low valiue compared to the 
cheapest ICEV.  It only carries 2 people and minimal cargo.  You can't take 
it on most roads.  To get across town without the innerbelt, you have to 
pull out the map and plot a course that here in the Midwest often goes 
through rough neighborhoods - at 25 mph.  

So if an NEV is going to have anything close to the success that E-bikes 
have had, it has to be cheap, in line with its value as transportation.

How cheap?  I don't know.  You'd have to study the market, survey vehicle 
buyers.  But a wild, irresponsible guess might be around $5k, maybe $7k.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
 I think [Rio de Janeiro mayor Marcelo] Crivella will be 
 remembered as a mayor to be forgotten.

 -- Alvaro Costa e Silva
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] NEV is a stoopid idea. Moped is better

[Peter C. Thompson via EV]

FWIW, I was in Shanghai about 2 years ago - amazing transformation from 
ugly and smelly.  All of the motorcycles and 3-wheel delivery vehicles 
are now electric.  The noise level was dramatically reduced in addition 
to the smog reduction.


So NEVs do indeed have their place, as long as one keeps in mind the 
limitations of where they will be used.


Cheers, Peter

On 5/24/21 11:26 AM, Larry Gales via EV wrote:

The smaller you make a gas vehicle, the uglier, noisier, dirtier, they
become . In addition, they are proportionally less efficient.  So small gas
vehicles are generally a bad idea: they are responsible for much of the
horrific pollution you see in much of asia. .  But electric vehicles
downsize beautifully: they are always quiet, clean, and very efficient.
Given that 75% of all trips we make in cars today are within  10 miles, and
the average number of people in a car is 1.7, very small electric vehicles
could make a major difference in our cities.

Right now, the only type of micro electric vehicle that is surging in a
major way, is the electric bike. But I believe that NEVs should also become
a major part of the mix.

On Sun, May 23, 2021 at 8:07 PM Peter VanDerWal via EV 
wrote:


There are only two ways out of my neighborhood.  The short way is on a
highway with a 55mph speed limit.  The long way (adds 6 miles) has a posted
speed limit of 45.
So technically NEVs would not be a legal way to get to town.  On the other
hand, I doubt anyone else around here ( including the cops) realize that,
so you could probably get away with it.

On the other hand, every used NEV I've seen for sale costs as much or more
than a used EV, so I've never serious considered buying one.

My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key

May 22, 2021 5:05 PM, "Peri Hartman via EV"  wrote:


Depends on your needs. I bicycle. My wife could use a small NEV, not a

moped. She needs protection

from weather and a place to put groceries, etc. And additional safety.

We live in a place with

mostly 20 and 25mph streets for miles in every direction.
Peri


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Re: [EVDL] NEV is a stoopid idea. Moped is better

[Larry Gales via EV]

The smaller you make a gas vehicle, the uglier, noisier, dirtier, they
become . In addition, they are proportionally less efficient.  So small gas
vehicles are generally a bad idea: they are responsible for much of the
horrific pollution you see in much of asia. .  But electric vehicles
downsize beautifully: they are always quiet, clean, and very efficient.
Given that 75% of all trips we make in cars today are within  10 miles, and
the average number of people in a car is 1.7, very small electric vehicles
could make a major difference in our cities.

Right now, the only type of micro electric vehicle that is surging in a
major way, is the electric bike. But I believe that NEVs should also become
a major part of the mix.

On Sun, May 23, 2021 at 8:07 PM Peter VanDerWal via EV 
wrote:

> There are only two ways out of my neighborhood.  The short way is on a
> highway with a 55mph speed limit.  The long way (adds 6 miles) has a posted
> speed limit of 45.
> So technically NEVs would not be a legal way to get to town.  On the other
> hand, I doubt anyone else around here ( including the cops) realize that,
> so you could probably get away with it.
>
> On the other hand, every used NEV I've seen for sale costs as much or more
> than a used EV, so I've never serious considered buying one.
>
> My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key
>
> May 22, 2021 5:05 PM, "Peri Hartman via EV"  wrote:
>
> > Depends on your needs. I bicycle. My wife could use a small NEV, not a
> moped. She needs protection
> > from weather and a place to put groceries, etc. And additional safety.
> We live in a place with
> > mostly 20 and 25mph streets for miles in every direction.
> > Peri
> >
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-- 
Larry Gales
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Re: [EVDL] NEV is a stoopid idea. Moped is better

[Jan Steinman via EV]

> From: Lawrence Rhodes  >
> 
> A moped (tuk tuk style) has the advantage of less cost on insurance and a one 
> time registration and holds three people. NEV should just die. 

Yea, here on the rainy west coast, I find a moped saves me time, because I can 
shower at the same time that I commute to work!

You must be from Southern California.

Jan

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Re: [EVDL] NEV is a stoopid idea. Moped is better

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Your comment about golf carts in San Francisco surprises me. Unless it has been 
recently changed, state law allows them to be driven on public roads only if 
they are within a short distance (I can’t recall exactly how far - half mile?) 
of a golf course AND the city has adopted an ordinance allowing their operation.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On May 23, 2021, at 4:24 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> If NEVs are such a "stoopid" idea, why do you see so many smiling people
> 
>> driving golf cars around retirement communities?
> 
> 
>> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> 
> 
> Because there is no fee in gated communities for golf carts. Large base of 
> used golf carts. 15mph is not a big deal when it's short distances. 
> California Golf Cart & Low Speed Vehicle Laws:
> General Federal Law for Golf Carts:
> 
> Under current NHTSA interpretations and regulations, so long as golf cars and 
> other similar vehicles are incapable of exceeding 20 miles per hour, they are 
> subject to only state and local requirements regarding safety equipment. 
> However, if these vehicles are originally manufactured so that they can go 
> faster than 20 miles per hour, they are treated as motor vehicles under 
> Federal law.
> 
> The standard requires low-speed vehicles (15mph)to be equipped with 
> headlamps, stop lamps, turn signal lamps, tail-lamps, reflex reflectors, 
> parking brakes, rear view mirrors, windshields, seat belts, and vehicle 
> identification numbers. 
> https://golfcartresource.com/california-golf-cart-low-speed-vehicle-laws/  I 
> have seen golf carts driven on San Francisco city streets. Just had a talk 
> with a city official. No license is required for the vehicle but insurance 
> and a drivers license is required in San Francisco. That's why they are 
> smiling.NEV needs full registration just like a car. Mopeds can go 30mph.  
> Lawrence Rhodes 
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001694093887.html?albpd=en1005001694093887=708-803-3821_platform=aaf=374448549250=u=9594035441=UneMJZVf=374448549250_id=cf99d56e6e404571826921bcd1e8a857=new_Detail=false=Google_7_shopping=google=en1005001694093887_fcid=f850416029aa46c68b43e3d9374d83be-1621812165465-03567-UneMJZVf=CjwKCAjw-qeFBhAsEiwA2G7Nl_yTO5rjgYKLhGESZnf0hONd8Ohqb0T8jRH71NO88Jm9ih8yA_3YKRoCXwYQAvD_BwE=102695258807_fsk=UneMJZVf=shopping=88=false_trace_key=f850416029aa46c68b43e3d9374d83be-1621812165465-03567-UneMJZVf=c=aw.ds
>  
> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] NEV is a stoopid idea. Moped is better

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

>If NEVs are such a "stoopid" idea, why do you see so many smiling people

>driving golf cars around retirement communities?


>David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey


Because there is no fee in gated communities for golf carts. Large base of used 
golf carts. 15mph is not a big deal when it's short distances. California Golf 
Cart & Low Speed Vehicle Laws:
General Federal Law for Golf Carts:

Under current NHTSA interpretations and regulations, so long as golf cars and 
other similar vehicles are incapable of exceeding 20 miles per hour, they are 
subject to only state and local requirements regarding safety equipment. 
However, if these vehicles are originally manufactured so that they can go 
faster than 20 miles per hour, they are treated as motor vehicles under Federal 
law.

The standard requires low-speed vehicles (15mph)to be equipped with headlamps, 
stop lamps, turn signal lamps, tail-lamps, reflex reflectors, parking brakes, 
rear view mirrors, windshields, seat belts, and vehicle identification numbers. 
https://golfcartresource.com/california-golf-cart-low-speed-vehicle-laws/  I 
have seen golf carts driven on San Francisco city streets. Just had a talk with 
a city official. No license is required for the vehicle but insurance and a 
drivers license is required in San Francisco. That's why they are smiling.NEV 
needs full registration just like a car. Mopeds can go 30mph.  Lawrence Rhodes 
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001694093887.html?albpd=en1005001694093887=708-803-3821_platform=aaf=374448549250=u=9594035441=UneMJZVf=374448549250_id=cf99d56e6e404571826921bcd1e8a857=new_Detail=false=Google_7_shopping=google=en1005001694093887_fcid=f850416029aa46c68b43e3d9374d83be-1621812165465-03567-UneMJZVf=CjwKCAjw-qeFBhAsEiwA2G7Nl_yTO5rjgYKLhGESZnf0hONd8Ohqb0T8jRH71NO88Jm9ih8yA_3YKRoCXwYQAvD_BwE=102695258807_fsk=UneMJZVf=shopping=88=false_trace_key=f850416029aa46c68b43e3d9374d83be-1621812165465-03567-UneMJZVf=c=aw.ds
 


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Re: [EVDL] NEV is a stoopid idea. Moped is better

[Peter VanDerWal via EV]

There are only two ways out of my neighborhood.  The short way is on a highway 
with a 55mph speed limit.  The long way (adds 6 miles) has a posted speed limit 
of 45.
So technically NEVs would not be a legal way to get to town.  On the other 
hand, I doubt anyone else around here ( including the cops) realize that, so 
you could probably get away with it.

On the other hand, every used NEV I've seen for sale costs as much or more than 
a used EV, so I've never serious considered buying one.

My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key

May 22, 2021 5:05 PM, "Peri Hartman via EV"  wrote:

> Depends on your needs. I bicycle. My wife could use a small NEV, not a moped. 
> She needs protection
> from weather and a place to put groceries, etc. And additional safety. We 
> live in a place with
> mostly 20 and 25mph streets for miles in every direction.
> Peri
>
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Re: [EVDL] NEV is a stoopid idea. Moped is better

[Phil Hochstetler via EV]

https://etukusa.com/

Perhaps?

On Sat, May 22, 2021 at 5:12 PM Willie McKemie via EV 
wrote:

> Point out some available in US, supported, semi-safe, reliable tuk-tuks,
> por favor.
>
>
> On Sat, May 22, 2021, 6:22 PM Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > Speed disadvantage. No price advantage compared to a more functional used
> > EV. A moped (tuk tuk style) has the advantage of less cost on insurance
> and
> > a one time registration and holds three people. NEV should just die.
> > Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] NEV is a stoopid idea. Moped is better

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

If NEVs are such a "stoopid" idea, why do you see so many smiling people 
driving golf cars around retirement communities?

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
 I am the one with no secrets. They [the Chinese government] 
 have secrets. It is only because they have secrets that they 
 can imagine everyone else having them too.

 -- Ai Weiwei
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] NEV is a stoopid idea. Moped is better

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Depends on your needs. I bicycle. My wife could use a small NEV, not a 
moped. She needs protection from weather and a place to put groceries, 
etc. And additional safety. We live in a place with mostly 20 and 25mph 
streets for miles in every direction.

Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "Lawrence Rhodes via EV" 
To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" 
Cc: "Lawrence Rhodes" 
Sent: 22-May-21 4:04:11 PM
Subject: [EVDL] NEV is a stoopid idea. Moped is better


Speed disadvantage. No price advantage compared to a more functional used EV. A 
moped (tuk tuk style) has the advantage of less cost on insurance and a one 
time registration and holds three people. NEV should just die. Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] NEV is a stoopid idea. Moped is better

[Willie McKemie via EV]

Point out some available in US, supported, semi-safe, reliable tuk-tuks,
por favor.


On Sat, May 22, 2021, 6:22 PM Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
wrote:

> Speed disadvantage. No price advantage compared to a more functional used
> EV. A moped (tuk tuk style) has the advantage of less cost on insurance and
> a one time registration and holds three people. NEV should just die.
> Lawrence Rhodes
> ___
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>
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