Re: [EVDL] Two EV's to Donate

[ROBERT via EV]

"I beg to differ. Most of the early battery chargers and controllers were built 
with generic parts that are still widely available. There was little or no 
software in the way, as they didn't *have* microcomputers running them. 
Schematics can usually be found quite easily on the web, either in the old 
service manuals or ones that someone has reverse-engineered and posted."


Lee, you are correct; however, the early BC and controllers were inefficient 
and would not be acceptable for a present day EV conversion.  Same applies to 
the GE EV1 controller.  My comment concerned the low value of a 10 year old DC 
EV conversion and the difficulty in maintaining the system.  As to easy of 
troubleshooting an older EV just read the on going discussion "Slow due to 96V 
pack".  This system was used on a lot of early EV conversions and the knowledge 
base is still limited and conflicted.


It has been and still is my opinion that someone needs to design an open source 
PFC battery charger and 200KW motor controller with direct torque control.  I 
have always felt the EAA should have sponsored and supported a technical group 
for this purpose.  I started working with the EV group about 15 years ago.  No 
production EV was available.  The only choose was a conversion.  EV equipment 
was limited and many people like you developed some equipment; however, 
national support was limited and no central repository for documentation was 
available.  In my opinion, this has hurt/killed the EV conversion market.  As a 
compliment to you and others who developed early EV equipment, we all thank 
you.  However, the big boys (car companies) have won.



From: EV  on behalf of Lee Hart via EV 

Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 4:34 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Lee Hart
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Two EV's to Donate

From: ROBERT via EV 
>"You can actually work on them yourself, without having to fight some 
>automaker's proprietary security stuff."  That said; however, on older 
>conversions and on most conversions the conversion documentation is very weak 
>and documentation on the individual components is limited or non-exist.  Many 
>companies that made battery chargers, motor controllers, meter, and other 
>electronic devices had limited documentation or proprietary documentation and 
>never a schematic or software source code.  I would rather hack a production 
>EV product than reverse engineer or troubleshoot a product from a company that 
>was out of business.  A good example is the original EV1 hardware.  Try to 
>work on that stuff.  Its value is nil.

I beg to differ. Most of the early battery chargers and controllers were built 
with generic parts that are still widely available. There was little or no 
software in the way, as they didn't *have* microcomputers running them. 
Schematics can usually be found quite easily on the web, either in the old 
service manuals or ones that someone has reverse-engineered and posted.

If by "EV1" you mean the GM EV1 electric car, then you're right; its 
controller, charger, and associated systems are essentially undocumented and 
unfixable -- just the way GM wanted it.

But if you mean the GE EV1 EV controllers, they are eminently repairable and 
hackable. Full service manuals with schematics are available. Virtually every 
part can be easily replaced with basic tools. There is *no* software to get in 
the way.

I would much rather fix a Curtis 1231 EV controller than a GM Dolphin 
controller.

--
Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart http://www.sunrise-ev.com


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Re: [EVDL] Two EV's to Donate

[Lee Hart via EV]

From: ROBERT via EV 
>"You can actually work on them yourself, without having to fight some 
>automaker's proprietary security stuff."  That said; however, on older 
>conversions and on most conversions the conversion documentation is very weak 
>and documentation on the individual components is limited or non-exist.  Many 
>companies that made battery chargers, motor controllers, meter, and other 
>electronic devices had limited documentation or proprietary documentation and 
>never a schematic or software source code.  I would rather hack a production 
>EV product than reverse engineer or troubleshoot a product from a company that 
>was out of business.  A good example is the original EV1 hardware.  Try to 
>work on that stuff.  Its value is nil.

I beg to differ. Most of the early battery chargers and controllers were built 
with generic parts that are still widely available. There was little or no 
software in the way, as they didn't *have* microcomputers running them. 
Schematics can usually be found quite easily on the web, either in the old 
service manuals or ones that someone has reverse-engineered and posted.

If by "EV1" you mean the GM EV1 electric car, then you're right; its 
controller, charger, and associated systems are essentially undocumented and 
unfixable -- just the way GM wanted it.

But if you mean the GE EV1 EV controllers, they are eminently repairable and 
hackable. Full service manuals with schematics are available. Virtually every 
part can be easily replaced with basic tools. There is *no* software to get in 
the way.

I would much rather fix a Curtis 1231 EV controller than a GM Dolphin 
controller.

--
Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart http://www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Two EV's to Donate

[ROBERT via EV]

"You can actually work on them yourself, without having to fight some 
automaker's proprietary security stuff."  That said; however, on older 
conversions and on most conversions the conversion documentation is very weak 
and documentation on the individual components is limited or non-exist.  Many 
companies that made battery chargers, motor controllers, meter, and other 
electronic devices had limited documentation or proprietary documentation and 
never a schematic or software source code.  I would rather hack a production EV 
product than reverse engineer or troubleshoot a product from a company that was 
out of business.  A good example is the original EV1 hardware.  Try to work on 
that stuff.  Its value is nil.



From: EV  on behalf of EVDL Administrator via EV 

Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2017 5:17 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: EVDL Administrator
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Two EV's to Donate

On 10 Sep 2017 at 22:16, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

> They are old technology which has no place in the brush less motor
> world of today.

Yes, but they have an upside:

You can actually work on them yourself, without having to fight some
automaker's proprietary security stuff.

If the motor or controller craps out, you can replace it (or them) with
whatever new unit(s) you want.  Same with the DC:DC, brake vacuum pump, and
so on.  Same with the battery. You can upgrade or downgrade any component at
will.  You can get parts from any source, not just the dealer.  You won't
have the car rejecting some junkyard or generic part you put in because it
isn't "registered" with the body computer, or whatever.

There seems to be a large and growing "hacking" (in a good way) community
devoted to some production EVs, but even those are still much more locked
down and opaque than any conversion.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Two EV's to Donate

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

DavidWhile what you say is true it is also true that golfcart/forklift type 
of conversions are simple to troubleshoot but they are also prone to blown 
controllers.  One thing to do is hack Leaf packs to put into conversions of 
unusual vehicles.  I stopped my EV escapades when I got an estimate of 22k for 
batteries and BMS/charger for my Aspire.  I now have two Leafs for little more 
money.  I have been driving the State of California with my Leafs.  This is 
something I couldn't do with my conversions.  However with inexpensive Leaf 
packs available it is possible to revive some conversions and I think 
converting RV type vehicles may come into vogue.  
https://www.designboom.com/technology/solar-electric-volkswagen-camper-van-12-02-2016/Here
 is an example of a lead conversion which gives the owner great satisfaction.  
However there are plans to expand the range of this conversion to 150 miles and 
the solar array to 8kw.  Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Two EV's to Donate

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 10 Sep 2017 at 22:16, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

> They are old technology which has no place in the brush less motor
> world of today. 

Yes, but they have an upside: 

You can actually work on them yourself, without having to fight some 
automaker's proprietary security stuff.

If the motor or controller craps out, you can replace it (or them) with 
whatever new unit(s) you want.  Same with the DC:DC, brake vacuum pump, and 
so on.  Same with the battery. You can upgrade or downgrade any component at 
will.  You can get parts from any source, not just the dealer.  You won't 
have the car rejecting some junkyard or generic part you put in because it 
isn't "registered" with the body computer, or whatever.  

There seems to be a large and growing "hacking" (in a good way) community 
devoted to some production EVs, but even those are still much more locked 
down and opaque than any conversion.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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Re: [EVDL] Two EV's to Donate

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

Every dog has it's day.  I think you would be better off to sell. At least then 
the parts will be used in a working project.  If you donate I would be 
surprised if anyone would honor your do not scrap or cannibalize rule. These 
cars are near worthless.  Sorry to say.  I've spent thousands running cars like 
these.  I was lucky to get 3k for my Aspire.  I now have Leafs.  Be happy if 
someone just wants them for parts.  They are old technology which has no place 
in the brush less motor world of today. Not to mention lithium batteries. 
Sincerely, Lawrence Rhodes
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