Re: [EVDL] opinion: smaller evs ?

[Peter VanDerWal via EV]

A large part of the popularity is due to the laws in the USA.

Powered three wheeled vehicles are considered "Motorcycles" by the Federal 
government and most states, so they don't need to meet the safety requirements 
for cars.

Three wheeled bicycles are specified by federal law as bicycles (overrules 
state laws) and subject to the same rules/restrictins etc. as two wheeled 
bicycles.
4 wheeled bicycles are not bicycles and aren't legal in some areas.

My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key

September 11, 2022 7:15 AM, "Arnold Ligurs via EV"  wrote:

> On Sat, 10 Sep 2022 15:29:10 +
> Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
> 
>> Here are a few small EVs on sale, or about to be available.
>> 
>> https://electrek.co/2022/07/25/nimbus-one-50-mph-electric-vehicle
>> single seat, front air back, collision sensors
>> 
>> Arcimoto
>> https://www.arcimoto.com/order
>> two tandem seats, crush resistant roof same as passenger cars
>> 
>> https://massimoelectric.com/e-spider
>> two seats
>> (I had an email communication with them a year ago, but can't find the
>> thread. What I remember is it is designed for 70mph operation, with
>> safety features, but I don't remember if that includes any air bags.
>> 
>> Are people buying them ? I'm very tempted to buy one for in city use.
>> Safety is a must-have feature for me, so I'm mostly waiting for someone
>> to build one that has more protection, such as for side impact (yes,
>> that will make it slightly bigger, but still much smaller than a car).
>> It has to be fully enclosed, too, because of weather.
>> 
>> Peri
> 
> All seem quite interesting, but I have never really understood the allure
> of this sort of 3 wheel design.
> 
> It is a natural evolution from the traditional bicycle or motorcycle design,
> especially when the third wheel is used for steering, and the added width is
> available for side by side seating or cargo space.
> 
> However, although this configuration minimizes the vehicle weight by 
> eliminating
> a possible axle and a wheel, it seems to increase wheel contact with potholes
> and other road irregularities.
> Also, when the front pair of wheels are used for steering, that only increases
> the weight of the vehicle, since a more bulky steering mechanism is required.
> This design unevenly increases the load and wear on that one tire and wheel, 
> too.
> 
> Am I the only one that thinks this sort of 3 wheel configuration is not 
> optimal?
> 
> In some ways it is similar to in-wheel motors that are unsprung weight...
> it seems like a great idea, until you have to deal with some of the practical 
> issues.
> 
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Re: [EVDL] opinion: smaller evs ?

[Peter VanDerWal via EV]

I think something similar to the BMW I3 Rex would be a good solution for most 
people.
70-80 miles on batteries (less lithium, less weight) would work for the 
majority of people 90-95% of the time.  For longer trips you switch over to the 
onboard generator.  

The main problem with the I3 Rex is it's built for California's asinine rules, 
so it only goes approx 75 miles per tank.  Give it a larger gas tank, or the 
option for connecting a larger tank, for those rare trips.

It's not a perfect solution, but it is a 'good' solution for today (with todays 
technology) that would work for most people, and be a better option (for the 
planet) than carrying around a massive LiIon battery or running just on 
gasoline.

My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key

September 8, 2022 8:49 PM, "Peri Hartman via EV"  wrote:

> Currently, we have shortage of EVs. From what I've read and observed, this is 
> primarily because
> industry is ramping up. But, the next shortage will take longer to overcome. 
> We need a much larger
> supply of lithium and various metals to meet the enormous demand for 
> batteries. That will happen
> (hopefully in a relatively environmentally friendly way).
> 
> In the mean time, one possibility is for manufactures to make smaller, light 
> weight cars. Less
> weight, less battery. Maybe less cost, too. Is there a market for that ? 
> Could be, if people are
> impatient enough to buy EVs.
> 
> Peri
> 
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org >>
> 
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Re: [EVDL] opinion: smaller evs ?

[Lee Hart via EV]

EV List Lackey via EV wrote:

I'm not an engineer (duh), but I get the impression that 3-wheelers can be
made reasonably stable with clever engineering.  But you have to be really
careful what you do with them once they've left the drawing board, because
that engineering depends partly on precise center of mass and balance.

A trike uses less material, at least in theory, and that may be why they're
being designed today.  However, I remember several EV trike propsals in the
1980s and 1990s, including at least one that made it into significant
production numbers (Corbin Sparrow).  There've also been some Chinese made
EV trikes imported by ... er ... perhaps somewhat dodgy US firms.  The less
said about those the better.


The US market for EV trikes may be almost non-existant; but they are a 
major market internationally. See...


https://restofworld.org/2022/scooters-and-3-wheelers-are-really-whats-driving-an-ev-revolution/?utm_source=pocket-newtab

Lee Hart

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Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] opinion: smaller evs ?

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 11 Sep 2022 at 10:15, Arnold Ligurs via EV wrote:

> Am I the only one that thinks this sort of 3 wheel configuration is not
> optimal?

Nope. :-)

I'm not an engineer (duh), but I get the impression that 3-wheelers can be 
made reasonably stable with clever engineering.  But you have to be really 
careful what you do with them once they've left the drawing board, because 
that engineering depends partly on precise center of mass and balance.

A trike uses less material, at least in theory, and that may be why they're 
being designed today.  However, I remember several EV trike propsals in the 
1980s and 1990s, including at least one that made it into significant 
production numbers (Corbin Sparrow).  There've also been some Chinese made 
EV trikes imported by ... er ... perhaps somewhat dodgy US firms.  The less 
said about those the better.

The designers back then (80s/90s) pretty freely admitted that they weren't 
doing trikes for technical advantage. They did them for regulatory reasons.  
In some (most?) states a motorized trike is considered a motorcycle.  So you 
can neatly sidestep FMVSS compliance.  This saves a small company a LOT of 
dough.

You could argue that that saved dough is at least partly paid for with the 
lives and disabilities of people who crash those vehicles and die or are 
maimed. Or you could argue that anyone who buys such a vehicle should know 
the hazards just by looking at it, so his life ought to be his own look-out. 
Take your pick.

BTW, in the EU vehicke safety laws are in some ways more flexible.  They 
allow for a class of 4-wheel license free vehicles called quadricycles. You 
see these pokey little cars, many of them kitten-cute, all over France, 
which seems to be the country consuming the largest number of them.  There 
they're often - maybe predominantly - used by alcoholics who've permanently 
lost their driving licenses.  French law allows this. The possible rationale 
will be left as an exercise for the reader.

An aside: South Korea's postal service is replacing some of their ICEV 
delivery scooters with Renault Twizy quadricycles, built there by Samsung, 
which has a partnership with Renault.  So if you doubt that there's a place 
where small, efficient EVs can shove ICEVs out, there's your evidence for 
it.

Here's another quite interesting small, light EV, though it's unlikely that 
you'll ever be able to drive one here.  

https://www.citroen.com/en/Highlight/131/ami-100-electric-mobility-
accessible-to-all

or https://v.gd/nypeFb

Also: https://www.citroen.co.uk/ami

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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Re: [EVDL] opinion: smaller evs ?

[Arnold Ligurs via EV]

On Sat, 10 Sep 2022 15:29:10 +
Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:

> Here are a few small EVs on sale, or about to be available.
> 
> https://electrek.co/2022/07/25/nimbus-one-50-mph-electric-vehicle/
> single seat, front air back, collision sensors
> 
> Arcimoto
> https://www.arcimoto.com/order
> two tandem seats, crush resistant roof same as passenger cars
> 
> https://massimoelectric.com/e-spider/
> two seats
> (I had an email communication with them a year ago, but can't find the 
> thread. What I remember is it is designed for 70mph operation, with 
> safety features, but I don't remember if that includes any air bags.
> 
> Are people buying them ? I'm very tempted to buy one for in city use. 
> Safety is a must-have feature for me, so I'm mostly waiting for someone 
> to build one that has more protection, such as for side impact (yes, 
> that will make it slightly bigger, but still much smaller than a car). 
> It has to be fully enclosed, too, because of weather.
> 
> Peri
> 
> 

All seem quite interesting, but I have never really understood the allure
of this sort of 3 wheel design.

It is a natural evolution from the traditional bicycle or motorcycle design,
especially when the third wheel is used for steering, and the added width is
available for side by side seating or cargo space. 

However, although this configuration minimizes the vehicle weight by eliminating
a possible axle and a wheel, it seems to increase wheel contact with potholes 
and other road irregularities.
Also, when the front pair of wheels are used for steering, that only increases
the weight of the vehicle, since a more bulky steering mechanism is required.
This design unevenly increases the load and wear on that one tire and wheel, 
too.

Am I the only one that thinks this sort of 3 wheel configuration is not optimal?

In some ways it is similar to in-wheel motors that are unsprung weight...
it seems like a great idea, until you have to deal with some of the practical 
issues. 

-- 
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Re: [EVDL] opinion: smaller evs ?

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 10 Sep 2022 at 9:11, Gary Krysztopik via EV wrote:

> our best hope is to create a new system separate from the roads that
> are now ruined from a safety/efficiency standpoint. That new system can
> be closing some city roads to fast/heavy traffic to help connect bike
> paths but it seems that we have to separate fast/heavy from slow/light. 

That's a fine idea.  Europe has quite a lot of such infrastructure right 
now.  Look at Netherlands and Denmark. With bike trails and routes 
everywhere, 52 percent of Copenhagen workers commute by bike, and 70 percent 
of trips in Amsterdam are by bike.  

Germany has a "bike autobahn."  In France, the 27% EV direct subsidy applies 
to e-bikes, and Paris mayor Anne Hidalgo (go Anne!) vows to make Paris one 
of the world's most bike-friendly cities by 2026. Some EU countries have, or 
have experimented with, laws requiring employers to pay their employees to 
bike to work.  

Once again, although they're often baby steps, Europe is actually somewhat 
interested in reducing their carbon output.

But Europe is a different, more communitarian culture.  Here in the states, 
we're about ME and MY SAFETY, more into force and might-makes-right. Hence 
that Hummer - AFAIK, the world's only vehicle named after a sex act.  :-\

But I think it can happen here in the most forward-looking cities - maybe a 
dozen or two?  The feds would have to stay out of the way, and not literally 
prohibit it, as they've tried to do in the past (and probably will again) 
with CA and other state-level stricter emissions laws.

One or 2 dozen cities wouldn't be likely to prompt manufacturers to develop 
EV "enhanced bikes," but some of those that you and Bill cited seem aimed at 
Europe, with prices in euros. We might get the leftovers and B-stock. :-)

And your suggestion in the other post of building such vehicles locally from 
open-source designs sounds VERY promising.

I don't think they'll replace "normal size" EVs for very many people, but 
they can certainly supplement them, again as long as the price reflects 
their range and utility.  

My "French connection" used an e-bike as sole transportation for the better 
part of a year.  When the Renault Zoe EV arrived with 4 wheels and a roof, 
it was a relief to no longer get home from a downpour looking like sodden 
roadkill.  Enclose that open e-bike in a weatherproof shroud or body, and 
the equation would rebalance.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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Re: [EVDL] opinion: smaller evs ?

[Gary Krysztopik via EV]

Thanks! I listen to the Micromobility podcast and they talked about Nimbus.
Been following Arcimoto since the beginning, big fan.

The problem with trying to go lite is that the trucks have gotten even
bigger, and if that isn't bad enough GM threw down with the 9,000 lb
eHummer. So it's a tough battle to mix anything in that class of vehicles
with the eHummer and the new trucks with grills-of-death. That's why I
think our best hope is to create a new system separate from the roads that
are now ruined from a safety/efficiency standpoint. That new system can be
closing some city roads to fast/heavy traffic to help connect bike paths
but it seems that we have to separate fast/heavy from slow/light.

On Sat, Sep 10, 2022 at 8:30 AM Peri Hartman via EV 
wrote:

> Here are a few small EVs on sale, or about to be available.
>
> https://electrek.co/2022/07/25/nimbus-one-50-mph-electric-vehicle/
> single seat, front air back, collision sensors
>
> Arcimoto
> https://www.arcimoto.com/order
> two tandem seats, crush resistant roof same as passenger cars
>
> https://massimoelectric.com/e-spider/
> two seats
> (I had an email communication with them a year ago, but can't find the
> thread. What I remember is it is designed for 70mph operation, with
> safety features, but I don't remember if that includes any air bags.
>
> Are people buying them ? I'm very tempted to buy one for in city use.
> Safety is a must-have feature for me, so I'm mostly waiting for someone
> to build one that has more protection, such as for side impact (yes,
> that will make it slightly bigger, but still much smaller than a car).
> It has to be fully enclosed, too, because of weather.
>
> Peri
>
>
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Gary Krysztopik via EV" 
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> Cc: "Gary Krysztopik" 
> Sent: 10-Sep-22 06:28:13
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] opinion: smaller evs ?
>
> >I call them bike path superhighways. I lived in D.C. in 1995 (the late
> >nineteenth century) and they had 4-lane divided bike paths - a slow lane
> >and fast lane for each direction. The divide was only paint but I picture
> a
> >physical divide for safety. I think they have these huge bike paths in
> >SoCal too. So don't think of bike paths as we know them.
> >
> >It's good to keep in mind that a change like this will not and cannot
> >happen all at once overnight. But if enough people agree that this is a
> >direction worth heading towards then we can figure out details as we
> >transition.
> >
> >As far as whether cyclists will accept larger vehicles I don't know but if
> >you ask me whether I will accept climate change and business as usual I
> >definitely have a strong opinion on that. I really don't think replacing
> >ICE with EV and still having a 5,000 lb steel cage for every person is
> >going to be enough. Time has run out - it's called "Climate ChangeD" now.
> >
> >I just got back from a long trip across Canada and was happy to see that
> >the bike infrastructure (and climate awareness) was way ahead of the U.S.
> >There is someone running for office in Ottawa that is saying that they
> will
> >add 25 years of bike infrastructure in a matter of a year or two if
> >elected. This is possible when you look at the billion$ spent for an extra
> >interstate lane or new overpass and the associated externalities,
> >especially when it's been proven over and over again that it contributes
> to
> >the problem instead of solving it (driven by Big Auto and Big Oil).
> >
> >So the battery resources for microlight EV's is much more realistic and
> >sustainable (reduced by an order of magnitude), the energy required to
> >charge them is reduced by an order of magnitude, and the infrastructure
> >costs are reduced by probably much more than that and can be done much
> >quicker while having a much greater impact. A microlight EV can use a
> >standard 120 VAC outlet so the charging network infrastructure gets a lot
> >simpler and cheaper.
> >
> >Another benefit is that these vehicles are simple and can be locally
> >manufactured by small shops sharing open source designs. I've built a lot
> >of ebikes, emotorcycles and EV cars and trucks. The complexity goes way up
> >with size, speed and power. I worked on an ELF (by Organic Transit) and
> >it's wonderfully simple. The PEBL goes a step further by being totally
> >enclosed, and Shift EV around the corner from me has been doing great work
> >and recently installed a $500 A/C unit in a conversion that seems to work
> >well. As we

Re: [EVDL] opinion: smaller evs ?

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Here are a few small EVs on sale, or about to be available.

https://electrek.co/2022/07/25/nimbus-one-50-mph-electric-vehicle/
single seat, front air back, collision sensors

Arcimoto
https://www.arcimoto.com/order
two tandem seats, crush resistant roof same as passenger cars

https://massimoelectric.com/e-spider/
two seats
(I had an email communication with them a year ago, but can't find the 
thread. What I remember is it is designed for 70mph operation, with 
safety features, but I don't remember if that includes any air bags.


Are people buying them ? I'm very tempted to buy one for in city use. 
Safety is a must-have feature for me, so I'm mostly waiting for someone 
to build one that has more protection, such as for side impact (yes, 
that will make it slightly bigger, but still much smaller than a car). 
It has to be fully enclosed, too, because of weather.


Peri


<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "Gary Krysztopik via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Gary Krysztopik" 
Sent: 10-Sep-22 06:28:13
Subject: Re: [EVDL] opinion: smaller evs ?


I call them bike path superhighways. I lived in D.C. in 1995 (the late
nineteenth century) and they had 4-lane divided bike paths - a slow lane
and fast lane for each direction. The divide was only paint but I picture a
physical divide for safety. I think they have these huge bike paths in
SoCal too. So don't think of bike paths as we know them.

It's good to keep in mind that a change like this will not and cannot
happen all at once overnight. But if enough people agree that this is a
direction worth heading towards then we can figure out details as we
transition.

As far as whether cyclists will accept larger vehicles I don't know but if
you ask me whether I will accept climate change and business as usual I
definitely have a strong opinion on that. I really don't think replacing
ICE with EV and still having a 5,000 lb steel cage for every person is
going to be enough. Time has run out - it's called "Climate ChangeD" now.

I just got back from a long trip across Canada and was happy to see that
the bike infrastructure (and climate awareness) was way ahead of the U.S.
There is someone running for office in Ottawa that is saying that they will
add 25 years of bike infrastructure in a matter of a year or two if
elected. This is possible when you look at the billion$ spent for an extra
interstate lane or new overpass and the associated externalities,
especially when it's been proven over and over again that it contributes to
the problem instead of solving it (driven by Big Auto and Big Oil).

So the battery resources for microlight EV's is much more realistic and
sustainable (reduced by an order of magnitude), the energy required to
charge them is reduced by an order of magnitude, and the infrastructure
costs are reduced by probably much more than that and can be done much
quicker while having a much greater impact. A microlight EV can use a
standard 120 VAC outlet so the charging network infrastructure gets a lot
simpler and cheaper.

Another benefit is that these vehicles are simple and can be locally
manufactured by small shops sharing open source designs. I've built a lot
of ebikes, emotorcycles and EV cars and trucks. The complexity goes way up
with size, speed and power. I worked on an ELF (by Organic Transit) and
it's wonderfully simple. The PEBL goes a step further by being totally
enclosed, and Shift EV around the corner from me has been doing great work
and recently installed a $500 A/C unit in a conversion that seems to work
well. As we know heat is simple to add. So fully-enclosed bike-like EV's
with heat and A/C are not a technical challenge for small local shops to
build, especially with shared designs. This can flip the economic model
upside down - instead of mega factories shipping big complex EV's all
around the world local shops can build simple vehicles for local
transportation. I appreciate what Elon has done (I bash billionaires for
not paying their fair share in taxes but I really think it took a dedicated
billionaire to kick down the door and get EV's in the room) but I'd rather
see the profits stay local in mom and pop shops rather than see profits go
to making the next wealthiest person in the world. So this approach has
benefits in resources, energy, safety, economy, education and climate.

Looking forward to going to the Micromobility America conference next week!
Anybody else going?

Gary

On Fri, Sep 9, 2022 at 8:41 PM Peri Hartman via EV 
wrote:


 I'll speak up here, as an avid urban bike rider.

 Already bike lanes are used by multiple kinds of vehicles: bikes, of
 course, but also e-bikes, electric scooters, hover boards, segways,
 skate boards, and just about any personal mobility device you can
 imagine.

 So, the question isn't really whether bike riders would comfortably
 share bike paths

Re: [EVDL] opinion: smaller evs ?

[Ron via EV]

The width was one of my thoughts, too. I know of a couple of urban bridges 
where the "bike lane" is actually a single shared sidewalk. It's been several 
years since I lived there and used those routes, but as I recall it required 
care for two standard wheelchairs or mobility scooters to get past each other 
when they met partway across. I've since wondered how some of those adult 
upright tricycles and the newer recumbent trikes fare.

I can only imagine that anything with an outer shell would be even more 
challenging. Even if narrow enough, it might still require sticking your head 
out a window to get a good sight line to ensure clearance.
--
Ron

On September 9, 2022 9:40:59 p.m. CST, Peri Hartman via EV  
wrote:
>I'll speak up here, as an avid urban bike rider.
>
>Already bike lanes are used by multiple kinds of vehicles: bikes, of course, 
>but also e-bikes, electric scooters, hover boards, segways, skate boards, and 
>just about any personal mobility device you can imagine.
>
>So, the question isn't really whether bike riders would comfortably share bike 
>paths with various electric vehicles. I think two factors are important
>1. speed
>2. size
>
>On speed, in Seattle, e-bikes are limited to 20mph (you can go faster, but not 
>with assist). That's amply fast and, so far, seems to be ok. My personal 
>opinion is that other forms of EVs could use bike paths if they are limited to 
>20 mph. But that only works if the density is low. Imagine if you have a child 
>riding, who hasn't yet developed good situational awareness. A moderately 
>heavy object at 20 mph is enough to kill the child. So, I don't really have a 
>good answer on speed.
>
>On size, it gets more argumentative. Bikes are relatively narrow, and can pass 
>or be passed without too much extra space. Same for scooters, skate boards, 
>etc. If we get small, enclosed EVs that are 3-4' wide they may literally fit 
>in a bike lane but completely hog it. I can see that being strongly looked 
>down on. On the other hand, if someone were to design a wind and weather shell 
>which was no wider than the handle bars of a road bike, it might be ok.
>
>And, like for any subject, there are as many opinions as people. I don't know 
>how others would react. All I know is that the current sharing situation seems 
>to be ok with most people.
>
>Peri
>
><< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
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Re: [EVDL] opinion: smaller evs ?

[Peri Hartman via EV]

I'll speak up here, as an avid urban bike rider.

Already bike lanes are used by multiple kinds of vehicles: bikes, of 
course, but also e-bikes, electric scooters, hover boards, segways, 
skate boards, and just about any personal mobility device you can 
imagine.


So, the question isn't really whether bike riders would comfortably 
share bike paths with various electric vehicles. I think two factors are 
important

1. speed
2. size

On speed, in Seattle, e-bikes are limited to 20mph (you can go faster, 
but not with assist). That's amply fast and, so far, seems to be ok. My 
personal opinion is that other forms of EVs could use bike paths if they 
are limited to 20 mph. But that only works if the density is low. 
Imagine if you have a child riding, who hasn't yet developed good 
situational awareness. A moderately heavy object at 20 mph is enough to 
kill the child. So, I don't really have a good answer on speed.


On size, it gets more argumentative. Bikes are relatively narrow, and 
can pass or be passed without too much extra space. Same for scooters, 
skate boards, etc. If we get small, enclosed EVs that are 3-4' wide they 
may literally fit in a bike lane but completely hog it. I can see that 
being strongly looked down on. On the other hand, if someone were to 
design a wind and weather shell which was no wider than the handle bars 
of a road bike, it might be ok.


And, like for any subject, there are as many opinions as people. I don't 
know how others would react. All I know is that the current sharing 
situation seems to be ok with most people.


Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "EV List Lackey via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "EV List Lackey" 
Sent: 09-Sep-22 14:14:34
Subject: Re: [EVDL] opinion: smaller evs ?


On 9 Sep 2022 at 14:21, Gary Krysztopik via EV wrote:


 If we could greatly expand protected bike paths we could introduce all kinds
 of micro EVTMs like the ELF, PEBL, Twike, Podride and so many more for simple
 efficient local transportation.


Do you think that bike riders would accept without a fuss opening bike paths
to small enclosed or partly enclosed EVs, especially ones with no pedals?

That isn't a rhetorical question.  Although I ride an E-bike, I'm not a part
of that community, so I have no clue.  I do seem to recall having read years
ago that some of the more purist pedalers looked askance at e-bikes and
their owners.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
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Re: [EVDL] opinion: smaller evs ?

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 9 Sep 2022 at 14:21, Gary Krysztopik via EV wrote:

> If we could greatly expand protected bike paths we could introduce all kinds
> of micro EVTMs like the ELF, PEBL, Twike, Podride and so many more for simple
> efficient local transportation.

Do you think that bike riders would accept without a fuss opening bike paths 
to small enclosed or partly enclosed EVs, especially ones with no pedals?  

That isn't a rhetorical question.  Although I ride an E-bike, I'm not a part 
of that community, so I have no clue.  I do seem to recall having read years 
ago that some of the more purist pedalers looked askance at e-bikes and 
their owners.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
 Some people ask, "Why?" Others ask, "Why not?" 
 Then later they say, "Oh."

  -- Found on the Net
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] opinion: smaller evs ?

[EV List Lackey via EV]

Bill, all good points.  

The idea that one needs 2 tons of steel round him to get to work is just 
plain nuts.  I absolutely agree that we need efficient EVs.  But it's tough 
to even get more efficient ICEVs here. The trend is in the opposite 
direction, and it has the immense mass of ultra-rich and ultra-powerful 
corporations and their advertising agencies bearing on it.  

So while we try to fight that trend, we also have to do what we can to work 
within it.

As of 2019, 0.6% of Americans commuted by bicycle.  These are the kind of 
intelligent, thoughtful, forward-thinking people who we have a good chance 
of getting into alternative EVs. Again, I absolutely support working toward 
this.  

At least two of the vehicles you mention, the Podbike Frikar and the 
Northern Light 630, sound like they may have potential. IMO that's because 
they're priced more or less in line with their utility, at around 6,000-
7,000 euros.  

Ever heard of the Twike?  It was a human-electric hybrid trike, developed in 
the 1990s, arguably the spiritual ancestor of the EVs you mention.  IMO, it 
was a magnificently-designed vehicle, the Swiss watch of EVs.  

At a time when you could buy a small, fuel-efficient ICEV for under $10,000, 
a Twike cost around $35,000.  How many of them have you ever seen?  

For you, the utility of a tiny EV may be equal, or even superior, to that of 
a 4-place (or 7-place) road hog EV.  And, again, there's a place for such 
EVs when they're priced realistically - look at the success of E-bikes.

But as I see it, it's not practical to try to convert the real world that we 
live in to EVs by selling them only to people like you - or for that matter, 
only to people like me.

We have to offer Jane and Joe Average something not much less utilitarian 
than what they have now.  And the price has to be in line with the utility.

Hence my observation.  All else equal, including battery technology, it 
remains true that *for a given size and type of vehicle*, in general, the 
smaller the battery, the shorter the range.  

And the shorter the range, the lower the vehicle's *perceived* utility.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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 Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent 
 revolution inevitable.  

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Re: [EVDL] opinion: smaller evs ?

[Gary Krysztopik via EV]

If we could greatly expand protected bike paths we could introduce all kinds of 
micro EV’s like the ELF, PEBL, Twike, Podride and so many more for simple 
efficient local transportation.

Gary Krysztopik 
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Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 9, 2022, at 3:50 AM, Bill Woodcock via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sep 9, 2022, at 7:23 AM, EV List Lackey via EV  wrote:
>>> On 9 Sep 2022 at 3:49, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>>> In the mean time, one possibility is for manufactures to make smaller,
>>> light weight cars. Less weight, less battery. Maybe less cost, too. Is
>>> there a market for that ? Could be, if people are impatient enough to
>>> buy EVs.
>> 
>> Less battery means less range,
> 
> No, it doesn’t, not inherently.  That’s the whole point of the question.
> 
> The battery is storage for the energy to propel the laden vehicle, at a speed 
> which we can assume to be constant for convenience.  So, the trade-off is 
> between weight and range.
> 
> There are three weights of concern: the weight of the payload, being the 
> driver, any passengers, and any cargo; the weight of the vehicle structure, 
> including the body/frame motor, wheels, upholstery, etc.; and the weight of 
> the battery itself.
> 
> The weight of the battery varies with the capacity of the battery, while the 
> other two are unrelated to the capacity of the battery.
> 
> The weight of the payload is variable: a bus might have to accommodate a 
> hundred people; a truck might have to carry twenty tons of cargo; while a 
> skateboard might need to carry a 60-pound child.  So we can reduce weight and 
> increase range by reducing the actual payload.
> 
> The weight of the vehicle is also variable, and is very dependent on the 
> maximum possible (as opposed to the actual) payload.  Thus an 
> Electrameccanica Solo is lighter than a Model X because the maximum possible 
> payload is one person rather than seven+ people.  Less structure is needed to 
> enclose space which is sometimes empty.  Likewise, less structure is needed 
> to support and enclose a smaller battery.
> 
> So, as Peri points out, all of these work together… If you make the vehicle 
> smaller, it gets lighter.  If it’s lighter, it needs less battery. If it has 
> less battery, it can get smaller again… And that beneficial cycle continues 
> right up to the point where you get to an electric skateboard or 
> roller-skate… and then you’re constrained by the minimum useful payload of 
> one person.
> 
> Smaller batteries and smaller vehicles have a lot of other benefits as well: 
> less power, faster charging, easier to park, less expensive, cause less 
> damage in a crash, easier to work on.
> 
> When we lived in California, my primary driver was a Smart, and my wife’s 
> primary driver was a Model X.  Now that we live in Paris, my primary driver 
> is a Luna Stealth and my wife’s primary driver is a Tern GSD.  But we also 
> have a Ford Kuga PHEV, which we rarely drive, and I’ve got orders in for four 
> other small vehicles:
> 
> - PodBike Frikar - Pre-ordered on Nov 23, 2021.
> - Northern Light 630 - Pre-ordered on Jan 3, 2022.
> - Nimbus One - Pre-ordered on June 12, 2022.
> - Arcimoto Mean Lean Machine - Pre-ordered on July 28, 2022.
> 
> We’ll see if and when any of those arrive, but they’re all the kind of 
> vehicle that I see the greatest utility for, in the future.  It’s hard for me 
> to imagine owning something as large as a Model X for personal use again.
> 
>> thus less buyer value
> 
> Not at all.  The value of the Luna and the Tern are far higher than the value 
> of a Model X, to me, now.  I ride one or the other of them three or four 
> times in an average day.  Whereas the Kuga seems too big and unwieldy and a 
> pain-in-the-ass to bother getting out of the garage more than once or twice a 
> month.  And a Model X would be that much worse, since it’s substantially 
> larger than the Kuga.
> 
> Another thing… Most of the vehicles we’re talking about are legal for kids to 
> drive (because they’re less lethal), so that’s another form of value: they’re 
> more accessible to more people.  And, as I said, they kill fewer people, 
> which is good too.  :-)
> 
>> so something like that had darn well better be less cost!
> 
> They are inherently much lower cost, but that’s because they cost less to 
> build, not because they’re lower value.
> 
>-Bill
> 
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Re: [EVDL] opinion: smaller evs ?

[Bill Woodcock via EV]

> On Sep 9, 2022, at 7:23 AM, EV List Lackey via EV  wrote:
> On 9 Sep 2022 at 3:49, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>> In the mean time, one possibility is for manufactures to make smaller,
>> light weight cars. Less weight, less battery. Maybe less cost, too. Is
>> there a market for that ? Could be, if people are impatient enough to
>> buy EVs.
> 
> Less battery means less range,

No, it doesn’t, not inherently.  That’s the whole point of the question.

The battery is storage for the energy to propel the laden vehicle, at a speed 
which we can assume to be constant for convenience.  So, the trade-off is 
between weight and range.

There are three weights of concern: the weight of the payload, being the 
driver, any passengers, and any cargo; the weight of the vehicle structure, 
including the body/frame motor, wheels, upholstery, etc.; and the weight of the 
battery itself.

The weight of the battery varies with the capacity of the battery, while the 
other two are unrelated to the capacity of the battery.

The weight of the payload is variable: a bus might have to accommodate a 
hundred people; a truck might have to carry twenty tons of cargo; while a 
skateboard might need to carry a 60-pound child.  So we can reduce weight and 
increase range by reducing the actual payload.

The weight of the vehicle is also variable, and is very dependent on the 
maximum possible (as opposed to the actual) payload.  Thus an Electrameccanica 
Solo is lighter than a Model X because the maximum possible payload is one 
person rather than seven+ people.  Less structure is needed to enclose space 
which is sometimes empty.  Likewise, less structure is needed to support and 
enclose a smaller battery.

So, as Peri points out, all of these work together… If you make the vehicle 
smaller, it gets lighter.  If it’s lighter, it needs less battery. If it has 
less battery, it can get smaller again… And that beneficial cycle continues 
right up to the point where you get to an electric skateboard or roller-skate… 
and then you’re constrained by the minimum useful payload of one person.

Smaller batteries and smaller vehicles have a lot of other benefits as well: 
less power, faster charging, easier to park, less expensive, cause less damage 
in a crash, easier to work on.

When we lived in California, my primary driver was a Smart, and my wife’s 
primary driver was a Model X.  Now that we live in Paris, my primary driver is 
a Luna Stealth and my wife’s primary driver is a Tern GSD.  But we also have a 
Ford Kuga PHEV, which we rarely drive, and I’ve got orders in for four other 
small vehicles:

 - PodBike Frikar - Pre-ordered on Nov 23, 2021.
 - Northern Light 630 - Pre-ordered on Jan 3, 2022.
 - Nimbus One - Pre-ordered on June 12, 2022.
 - Arcimoto Mean Lean Machine - Pre-ordered on July 28, 2022.

We’ll see if and when any of those arrive, but they’re all the kind of vehicle 
that I see the greatest utility for, in the future.  It’s hard for me to 
imagine owning something as large as a Model X for personal use again.

> thus less buyer value

Not at all.  The value of the Luna and the Tern are far higher than the value 
of a Model X, to me, now.  I ride one or the other of them three or four times 
in an average day.  Whereas the Kuga seems too big and unwieldy and a 
pain-in-the-ass to bother getting out of the garage more than once or twice a 
month.  And a Model X would be that much worse, since it’s substantially larger 
than the Kuga.

Another thing… Most of the vehicles we’re talking about are legal for kids to 
drive (because they’re less lethal), so that’s another form of value: they’re 
more accessible to more people.  And, as I said, they kill fewer people, which 
is good too.  :-)

> so something like that had darn well better be less cost!

They are inherently much lower cost, but that’s because they cost less to 
build, not because they’re lower value.

-Bill

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Re: [EVDL] opinion: smaller evs ?

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 9 Sep 2022 at 3:49, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

> In the mean time, one possibility is for manufactures to make smaller, 
> light weight cars. Less weight, less battery. Maybe less cost, too. Is 
> there a market for that ? Could be, if people are impatient enough to 
> buy EVs.

Less battery means less range, thus less buyer value, so something like that 
had darn well better be less cost!  

It probably wouldn't translate to the US, where city cars aren't really a 
thing, but in France the Dacia Spring was the #1 selling EV in 2022/h1.

A-segment, 250km range (WLTP), price 19,000 euros (14,000 euros after the 
French EV subsidy).

For comparison, you'd pay 53,000 euros for a Tesla 3 there, if you could get 
one.  And your subsidy would be only 1,000 euros because of the luxury-car 
price.

FWIW, at the moment 1 euro is approximately 1 US dollar.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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Re: [EVDL] opinion: smaller evs ?

[Frank Bonilla via EV]

2 words, - Super Capacitors-   If battery tech fails start putting R & D
into Super caps. and solar.

On Thu, Sep 8, 2022 at 11:51 PM Peri Hartman via EV 
wrote:

> Currently, we have shortage of EVs. From what I've read and observed,
> this is primarily because industry is ramping up. But, the next shortage
> will take longer to overcome. We need a much larger supply of lithium
> and various metals to meet the enormous demand for batteries. That will
> happen (hopefully in a relatively environmentally friendly way).
>
> In the mean time, one possibility is for manufactures to make smaller,
> light weight cars. Less weight, less battery. Maybe less cost, too. Is
> there a market for that ? Could be, if people are impatient enough to
> buy EVs.
>
> Peri
>
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>
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-- 
F. A. Bonilla
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