Re: [Evangelism] Numbers

2010-03-25 Thread Alexander Limi
There are more than 200 developers with commit rights, the number of
active contributors varies depending on how you define it.

From Ohloh:

 Over the past twelve months, 81 developers contributed new code to Plone.

That number has been steadily rising, for what it's worth.


On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 7:51 AM, Matt Hamilton ma...@netsight.co.uk wrote:

 Well plone.net currently says 334 providers in 61 countries, so it has
 gone up a bit.

 As for core developers... I presume they mean there those with commit
 rights... I'm not sure, someone else with access to plone.org would have
 to get that data.

 -Matt


 On 24 Mar 2010, at 13:36, Jan Ulrich Hasecke wrote:

  Hi all,

 we want to make T-Shirts and print on the back a short version of the
 big text of plone.org

 
 Plone is among the top 2% of all open source projects worldwide,
 with 200 core developers
 and more than 300 solution providers in 57 countries.
 The project has been actively developed since 2001,
 is available in more than 40 languages,
 and has the best security track record of any major CMS.
 

 Are the numbers correct or did they change?

 juh
 DZUG e.V.


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Re: [Evangelism] Conference kit? And Plone booth at PyCon 2010

2010-02-01 Thread Alexander Limi
Matt Hamilton / Netsight (CCed) have some FANTASTIC brochures that will make
everyone else jealous. I don't know how hard it'll be to organize the
logistics of shipping them, or whether you should get the paper spec from
Matt and print locally. (I can't overstate how important it is to print on
the right type of paper, btw :)


On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 8:49 PM, cjj c...@ifpeople.net wrote:


 Hi folks,

 After over a month after requesting it...we finally got word that Plone
 will
 have a booth at PyCon 2010 (here in Atlanta in just 3 weeks!). That's a
 very
 short heads up time, so I wanted to catch up and see if there was a booth
 kit available. I know there has been much talk of it over time and we could
 really use it for both PyCon and NTEN (both here in Atlanta).

 In case that idea is still just imaginary, here's what I'm looking for:
 - Banner or info and graphics file for having a banner printed
 - materials (or files for printing them) to provide overview of Plone

 We have bumper stickers and the little device stickers here. If there is
 any
 other goodies for booth, then those would be great too.

 Also, if you're coming to PyCon, please let me know! We need help manning
 the booth Friday and Saturday, from 10am till 4pm. If you're willing to put
 in some time, please indicate that too.

 Thanks and hope to see you in Atlanta!

 Best,
 Chris
 --
 www.ifpeople.net
 t: 678-608-3408
 --
 View this message in context:
 http://n2.nabble.com/Conference-kit-And-Plone-booth-at-PyCon-2010-tp4498924p4498924.html
 Sent from the Evangelism mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Re: [Evangelism] CMS exchange on EDUCAUSE Web Administrators list

2010-01-31 Thread Alexander Limi
Nate,

Send an email to Geir? He's been handling and consolidating the foundation's
domains lately.

On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 2:30 PM, Nate Aune na...@jazkarta.com wrote:

 Hi Mike,

 I'd like to get an update on what's happening with the PloneEdu site.
 I still own these domain names, and they are all expiring on Feb. 2nd.

 PLONEEDU.COM
 PLONEEDU.INFO
 PLONEEDU.ORG
 PLONENGO.COM
 PLONENGO.INFO
 PLONENGO.ORG

 I would love to transfer these to the Plone Foundation and then have
 them pointing to the appropriate IP address.

 Nate

 On Sat, Jan 9, 2010 at 3:56 PM, Alexander Limi l...@plone.org wrote:
  Hi Tom,
 
  There is indeed a group of people doing Edu stuff with Plone, and the
  WebLion folks are part of that. I'm a bit out of the loop on what they
 have
  been doing lately, but they aim to have PloneEdu set up as a group to
 handle
  these things.
 
  I've CCed Mike Halm here, he should be able to fill you in on what they
 are
  doing.
 
  — Alexander
 
  On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 8:38 AM, Clark, Tom tomcl...@shawu.edu wrote:
 
  Plonefolk,
 
  Some of you will know the EDUCAUSE organization that covers the higher
  education technology space.  I lurk on one of their lists, for 'Web
  Administrators.'  Someone is hosting a 'Drupal Bootcamp' and asked
 others on
  the list if they had any experience managing such an event.
 
  While no one said much about how to host the event, there were several
  quick replies about organizing a Drupal sub-community (including someone
  from my local, deep-pocketed alma mater and ex-employer; who also has an
  active Plone community--TriPZUG--which I participate in as I can).
 
  The exchange seemed like a missed opportunity or something and made me
  wonder if there more plans anything similar for Plone.  I recall a
  'Plone4Ed' group, but it seems they never got past deciding on a name.
   Please correct me if I'm wrong on that.
 
  I work in higher ed and am actively trying to use Plone--love to know
  about others doing the same.  I have learned much from Penn State's
 WebLion
  stuff (many thanks for FSD!), but I'm thinking I'm need something more
 entry
  level.  I'm just learning to drive and their discussion is so much about
  repairing the Lexus : )
 
  Any thoughts welcome.
 
  TC
 
  Tom Clark, MLS
  Director, Wiggins Library
  Shaw University Divinity School
  919-716-5518
  tomcl...@shawu.edu
 
  -Original Message-
  From: evangelism-boun...@lists.plone.org
  [mailto:evangelism-boun...@lists.plone.org] On Behalf Of
  evangelism-requ...@lists.plone.org
  Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 6:55 AM
  To: evangelism@lists.plone.org
  Subject: Evangelism Digest, Vol 30, Issue 1
 
  Send Evangelism mailing list submissions to
 evangelism@lists.plone.org
 
  To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
 http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/evangelism
  or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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 evangelism-ow...@lists.plone.org
 
  When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
  than Re: Contents of Evangelism digest...
 
 
  Today's Topics:
 
1. [DW] Query - Are any government-focused open source
   consortiums still operational? (Csaba Madar?sz)
 
 
  --
 
  Message: 1
  Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 14:14:29 +0100
  From: Csaba Madar?sz madarasz.cs...@gmail.com
  Subject: [Evangelism] [DW] Query - Are any government-focused open
 source  consortiums still operational?
  To: evangelism@lists.plone.org
  Message-ID:
 c1fa695a1001060514n47d74dbai5def260083d1a...@mail.gmail.com
  Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
 
  Hi There,
 
  I am Csaba, working with Balazs in Hungary, and have run into this
  question
  at dowire.org.
 
  I think, we can add plonegov, but do you have other thing in your mind
 to
  share?
  Let me know pls..
 
  Cheers
 
 
 
 
  Madarász Csaba
  tel.:+36703643482
 
 
 
  Google Talk: madarasz.csaba Skype: bpanther360
  Linkedin http://www.linkedin.com/in/mcsaba
  Facebookhttp://www.facebook.com/csabam
  Youtube http://www.youtube.com/kiazami
  Twitterhttp://www.tiwitter.com/kiazami
  del.icio.us http://delicious.com/kiazami Blog
  RSShttp://nyilt.org/main/rss.xml
  Nyílt.org FSFE: EC caves in to proprietary lobbyists on
 
  interoperability
 http://nyilt.org/szabvany/FSFE_EC_caves_in_to_proprietary_lobbyists_on_interoperability
 
 
 
  -- Forwarded message --
  From: Steven Clift cl...@e-democracy.org
  Date: 2010/1/6
  Subject: [DW] Query - Are any government-focused open source consortiums
  still operational?
  To: newswire newsw...@groups.dowire.org
 
 
  I am noticing an uptick in interest again in promoting open source for
 use
  in government technology. This time more on economic reality grounds
 than
  philosophical.
 
  Are any government

[Evangelism] Re: noted: python.reddit.com sent me quite a bit of traffic

2010-01-21 Thread Alexander Limi
Yup, the Python subreddit has a lot of Python people, which is why I put it
there. We should especially jump in and help correct the perception that
people have from trying Plone 3 years ago. Some of the comments are very
uninformed or plain incorrect.

But Reddit should definitely be one of our developer evangelism channels.

PS: Reddit is written in Python, which is also a reason they have such a
good Python community.

2010/1/21 Jon Stahl jonst...@gmail.com

 Just wanted to close the loop here with some stats:

 I saw that Alex submitted my Plone 4 is three times faster...
 article to http://python.reddit.com.  (Thanks, Alex!)

 Of the 893 visits that the page got yesterday, it appears (from Google
 Analytics) that 229 referred by reddit.com.  That's considerably more
 than came from twitter.com (97, although that almost certainly doesn't
 include those who came via non-web twitter clients), or Facebook (54).

 My conclusion: it's worth the effort to post hot Plone-related news
 items or blog posts to python.reddit.com, if we want them to reach an
 audience of interested pythonistas.

 best,
 jon




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Re: [Evangelism] CMS exchange on EDUCAUSE Web Administrators list

2010-01-09 Thread Alexander Limi

 Replies go to members of Newswire - Steven Clift's Democracies Online
 Newswire with all posts on this topic here:
 http://groups.dowire.org/r/topic/5QvjpRHawd1wVbJXlubiTi

 For digest version or to leave Newswire - Steven Clift's Democracies Online
 Newswire,
 email newsw...@groups.dowire.org
 with digest on or unsubscribe in the *subject*.

 Newswire - Steven Clift's Democracies Online Newswire is hosted by
 Democracies Online - http://dowire.org.
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Re: [Evangelism] Govt Tender and JCR standard

2009-12-14 Thread Alexander Limi
It's been a while since I was in the business of answering RFPs, but here's
something I used in an RFP that asked for JSR168:

Plone has a flexible and powerful framework for managing portlets. Portlets
can be developed and shared as separate components and have contracts with
their containing environment, similar to JSR168 and other Java-based
standards. Plone's portlet framework has focused on providing the needed
functionality for Plone. Complying with JSR168 was not considered a priority
in the initial implementation, but is something that can be added if the
deployment requires it. This will add additional development cost.

They usually just ask for these because they are checkbox items that they
have been told to ask for. If you can demonstrate similar functionality, and
have the door open for developing integration with Java-based standards
should they ever need it (which almost always ends up not being a priority),
they usually don't see it as a big deal.

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2009/12/14 Matt Hamilton ma...@netsight.co.uk

 Hi All,
  I've got a govt tender in front of me which is mandating:

 1. Portal supporting full JSR 170 and a roadmap to support JSR 283 Content
 Repository API
 2. WCM supporting JSR 168 and JSR 286.

 Which effectively mandates a Java solution. One other company has asked
 'Will you still consider a CMS solution which is not Java based?' to which
 their (rather lame) reply was 'We have an open mind and will consider all
 responses equally'.

 Has anyone here managed to come up with a good bit of text which suitably
 answers their question? Something along the lines of 'Plone does not support
 JSR standards as it is not a Java CMS, but we do support equivalent
 standards such as'?

 -Matt

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 Netsight Internet Solutions, Ltd.   Understand. Develop. Deliver
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Re: [Evangelism] cost comparison

2009-12-08 Thread Alexander Limi
Also, TCO usually means we couldn't find any other way to justify the cost
of our product, and we're taking a beating in the market right now, so we
made up* this totally arbitrary calculation that shows our competitor as
being harder to use / weird to set up / too communist.

* aka. paid a company to make charts

At least that's what usually happens when Microsoft starts touting TCO
numbers. ;)

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On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 8:27 PM, Ken Wasetis [Contextual Corp.] 
ken.wase...@contextualcorp.com wrote:

 Virginia,

 I had mentioned this Sharepoint cost calculator link when adding to
 Francesco's blog post comparing Plone and Sharepoint too.  Besides the cost
 factor, it couldn't hurt you to re-read his (two-part?) blog post regarding
 the Plone vs. Sharepoint comparison.
 http://francescociriaci.wordpress.com/2008/12/22/plone-vs-moss-round-1/

 I had helped a for-profit university evaluate commercial CMS tools a few
 years ago and they chose RedDot.  At the time, the price for their
 .Net-based CMS plus their Java-based personalized portal delivery engine,
 plus a 'Quick Start' where a small portion of the website was
 themed/implemented was to run about $330K in US$.

 Teamsite was in that evaluation as well, and their offering is broken up
 into many modules, so it's harder to compare, but this client would have
 paid a bit more for what they needed from IWOV than what the RedDot (now
 OpenText) price was, even.  Probably not a lot more, though.

 Seems like the bigger players such as Autonomy/Interwoven/Teamsite,
 OpenText/Vignette, etc. are in the 350-500K US$ range by the time you buy
 licenses for not only your production servers, but also development and/or
 staging.

 Not to mention that the per-hour integrator rates I was seeing were in the
 $175+/hr range US$, which is 30-40% more than most Plone shops will charge.

 Plus, you should build a comparison that looks at year 2, 3, etc.  With the
 commercial tools, the client will be paying 20%/year of license cost just to
 keep up with patches/upgrades, no on-site services, just emergency support,
 access to the online knowledge base, forums, etc.
 If you do a 3-year Total Cost of Ownership comparison, I can't imagine the
 other tools, even Sharepoint, coming close to Plone on a financial basis,
 but others would disagree.

 -Ken


 Nate Aune wrote:

 i don't know about Reddot or Teamsite, but the Sharepoint calculator can
 be used to determine the total cost of ownership if you have to buy all the
 user licenses and software licenses for the other dependent Microsoft
 products.

 http://community.bamboosolutions.com/blogs/sharepoint-price-calculator/default.aspx

 found via Cynapse blog:
 http://www.cynapse.com/blog/cynin-low-cost-alternative-sharepoint

 Nate

 On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 9:05 PM, Virginia Choy virgi...@pretaweb.commailto:
 virgi...@pretaweb.com wrote:

Hi,


Does anyone have any documentation about total cost of ownership
or general cost comparisons between deploying Plone, Sharepoint,
Teamsite,, RedDot or any other proprietary enterprise solution?


Thanks Virginia


~
Virginia Choy
Business Development Manager
PretaWeb - Plone Open Source Enterprise Web Solutions
Suite 2, Level 6, 99 York Street, Sydney 2000 NSW Australia
P: 612-8081-9072
M: 0423-198-306
W: www.pretaweb.com http://www.pretaweb.com

Sales  Support: 02-9955-2830



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[Evangelism] Re: WPDx2

2009-07-13 Thread Alexander Limi
I agree with Ken, don't schedule it on the same day as Earth Day. We have  
a lot of non-profits that are quite busy that day. :)


Always useful to check Wikipedia for a suggested date:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_22#Holidays_and_observances

Looking forward to WPD 2010!

— Alexander

On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 13:51:17 -0700, ctxlken  
ken.wase...@contextualcorp.com wrote:




Hi Roberto, I could help you with the English press release, if you'd  
like, and have an idea of what you want to have stated. Also, if I'm not  
mistaken, this past year the World Plone Day competed with Earth Day for  
April 22nd.nbsp; I'd recommend against doing that again next year,  
unless others think that 'piggy-backing' on Earth Day might have given  
us any advantage. Once again, nice job getting this idea launched and  
building upon its success each year! Ken Wasetis



 Original Message 
Subject: [Evangelism] WPDx2
From: Roberto Allende (via Nabble)
lt;ml-user+19463-786882...@n2.nabble.comgt;
Date: Mon, July 13, 2009 3:35 pm
To: ctxlken  
lt;ken.wase...@contextualcorp.comgt;


 Hello I'm writing in order to move forward two issues of WPD. Then  
first one is the postmortem document, the second one is the 2010 edition  
date. Postmortem document I need help from one or more volunteers to  
write a news/press release of wpd2009. Based on the results and the last  
year one, it could be a very easy task to do for anyone who has good  
skills writing in english and it would be a huge contribution for the  
event. If you're interested just contact me. WPD 2010 date We need to  
define a date for WPD 2010 edition. Last year this discussion was long  
and it is difficult to reach consensus when we talk about a worldwide  
event, but probably we could start it getting answer from 2 questions: -  
Shall we keep april as the month for WPD ? - Shall we keep doing it in a  
weekday as Wednesday ? I suggest to start wpd2010 planning with these  
points, once defined we can move forward improving it and get into other  
important topics. Kind Regards r. -- http://robertoallende.com  
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[Evangelism] Re: Top 15 Questions... Final Draft

2009-04-14 Thread Alexander Limi
On Mon, 13 Apr 2009 20:23:14 +0200, Chris Barnes  
ch...@txbarnes.com wrote:


In fact, this is my main complaint with Plone in general.  It might very  
well be easy to use for the end users - but to run the entire system  
requires a person who is well versed in Zope/python.


To run it — I'd say no. To customize it, absolutely. There's use as in  
end user, and use as in develop for / customize. We are very much  
aware that the current approach where Plone straddles multiple large  
pieces of infrastructure (Zope 2, Zope 3 and the CMF), is not ideal. The  
other option would be to dump our current user base and restart  
development in pure Zope 3 (or something else), which was an option that  
was deemed too risky.


I'm a computer administrator by profession - and *I* haven't been able  
to get a Plone site up and running yet.  What does that say for the  
average user? Iow, the kb needed to run  maintain a Plone system is  
WAY under stated.


With the latest advancements in configuration and setup tools (buildout  
being among the major changes here), the core part of this problem will be  
in much better shape than it was a year ago. The main problem as I see it  
at the moment is that not all documentation is current, but the team is  
working on updating the documentation to the current state of the art.



I have to be honest - I am close to giving up on Plone.


That's sad to hear. Let us know if there are specific things we can help  
with.


There are lots of things we want to make better about Plone — the good  
news is that the team is acutely aware of these issues, and everyone is  
pulling in the same direction to get them fixed. It just takes a bit of  
time, as everything does in a project with a large installed user base,  
where you need to care about upgrades and compatibility.


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[Evangelism] Re: Top 15 Questions... Final Draft

2009-04-11 Thread Alexander Limi
On Fri, 10 Apr 2009 05:38:26 +0200, Gabrielle Hendryx-Parker  
gabrie...@sixfeetup.com wrote:


Thanks to all of you who participated in this effort, we now have a  
final draft ready for the Top 15 Questions About Plone at:

http://www.openplans.org/projects/plone-marketing/top-ten-questions-about-plone


Thanks for doing this!

Comments/suggestions below:

#4: A free Plone add-on, RelStorage, also allows enterprises with  
investments in Oracle, MySQL and PostgreSQL to store the data driving  
their Plone site in their existing infrastructure for more robust  
scalability, clustering and failover.


This implies that the ZODB doesn't scale, and that you choose Oracle to do  
so — neither of which are true. ;)


I would drop the scalability argument, the main reason why people use it  
is the existing infrastructure/standards and tool support for  
failover/backup/clustering. So, something like:


A free Plone add-on, RelStorage, also allows enterprises with investments  
in Oracle, MySQL and PostgreSQL to store the data driving their Plone site  
in their existing infrastructure to be able to make use of familiar tools,  
clustering and failover solutions.


Not perfect, but you get the idea, and I'm sure you can make it better. :)



#5: Maybe mention something like As an example, plone.org is one of the  
few web sites in the world that has a 9 out of 10 PageRank in Google, the  
same as major sites like those of IBM and Microsoft.


It's a nice soundbite that people remember, and it's true. :)


The document looks great!


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[Evangelism] Some World Plone Day suggestions

2009-04-02 Thread Alexander Limi
Right now, there are a lot of event objects on plone.org, each announcing  
WPD in a different country. This won't scale, since only a few events are  
listed in the events listing.


I suggest that you create one mega-event with all the locations and local  
times — and share it among the organizers in the different countries. That  
way, there will be one prominent listing with all the key locations and  
dates, instead of 4 arbitrarily chosen locations on the front page.


And, if there is time — can the WPD logo be adjusted to the official blue  
color of the Plone logo? See http://plone.org/foundation/logo for specs. :)


Very excited to see everything coming together!

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[Evangelism] Re: Re: proposal for plone awards

2009-02-18 Thread Alexander Limi
On Fri, 13 Feb 2009 11:31:14 -0800, Chris Calloway  
c...@unc.edu wrote:


The name Ploney Award has been floating around for years and its  
purposefully awful® sound is part of what makes it so endearing.


It's actually spelled the Plonies (as in the Grammies), and yes — we  
have been discussing this for years. Having the official name be the  
Plone Awards is probably a good idea, though. Then we can refer to it as  
the Plonies inside the community.


It just lacks a person to own it — should be a simple matter of  
identifying some categories, set up a timely survey with some good  
candidates (as well as a freeform option) before the conference, and keep  
it a secret until it's announced at the conference.


Oh, and an awesome Plonies statuette for the winners, of course. ;)

Personally, my opinion is that it shouldn't be a simple popularity  
contest, but rather be used as the basis from where the winners are  
selected by the judges. This would make it more like the Oscars/Grammies  
too — and make it possible to put the spotlight on people/project that get  
less attention that they perhaps should have. :)


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[Evangelism] Re: Re: April 26, 2009 WPD ??

2008-12-23 Thread Alexander Limi
On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 03:19:58 -0800, Calvin Hendryx-Parker  
cal...@sixfeetup.com wrote:



On Dec 22, 2008, at 3:37 PM, Virginia Choy wrote:


I think plone week is a great idea as every country has different
circumstances. April is good for us in Sydney .


-1 on the week idea from me.  I think we will lose the impact of the
event if it is too spread out.


-1 from me too — a single day makes it special, a week does not. And yes,  
there will always be exceptions — it's beer/holiday time somewhere on the  
planet at all times. ;)


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[Evangelism] Re: Linux New Media

2008-12-15 Thread Alexander Limi
On Mon, 15 Dec 2008 05:49:56 -0800, Jan Ulrich Hasecke  
juhase...@googlemail.com wrote:



:-(
http://www.pr-inside.com/linux-new-media-chooses-the-ez-r967613.htm


That's a press release written by eZ Systems, what did you expect? :)

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[Evangelism] Re: Blog post - article

2008-12-10 Thread Alexander Limi
On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 02:29:48 -0800, Graham Perrin  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



From the author's closing paragraph:



goodbye Plone. Life is much better here in Drupal land. I have like 40++
modules


… one of which is not working :/

Notice all those 'Anonymous Cowards' in the comments? This Drupal site's
'User login' feature is not working … I had to laugh (and have commented
politely to the author).


That is indeed funny. :D

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[Evangelism] Re: READY for Testing: Text Search Improvement for Asian Languages

2008-12-03 Thread Alexander Limi
You should post this to the i18n list, not the evangelism list. More  
receptive audience there. ;)



On Wed, 03 Dec 2008 05:14:47 -0800, Takeshi Yamamoto  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



Sorry for long quiet period.  Now we are ready to act for text search
improvement.
Since all these things are of interest for all languages except English,
any contributors are welcome regardless region.

 CREATE TEST ASSERTION FOR TEXT SEARCH IMPROVEMENT 
We appreciate if many people writes a test assertion in their own
languages
and also provide language specific information.
For example, if the words are separated by space, if the words are
combined
with particles, if the words changes according other words, if words
combined
under some conditions, etc.
Also, Unicode specific issues are welcome, of course.
For example, some characters are expressed by single code, but also as
a composite of two codes.  similar to alphabet with accent aigu or
umlaut.
Such an information nees to be communicated to improve this software.
Though all these instructions are written in English, the this testing
is not
for English language.
Detail description for testing is described in following files:
http://dev.plone.org/collective/browser/UnicodeSplitterPatch/trunk/UnicodeSplitterPatch/tests/README-en.txt
http://dev.plone.org/collective/browser/UnicodeSplitterPatch/trunk/UnicodeSplitterPatch/tests/langs/en-sample-01.txt

 FILL UP SMALL PART OF LANGUAGE SURVEY 
Apart from this direct development work, I would like to have a quick
survey
of world languages Plone is now supporting.
I appreciate if you fill out some part of this form, the part you are
familiar with.
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pgA5RsCXykF6TE4QJ5eBCJghl=en
I found that Plone now support 60 languages from the view point of po-
file,
but also want to know population coverage.  I think the native
language user
population coverage could be one key perfomance indicator(KPI) of Plone.

 PO FILE CHARTING TOOL 
Another numbers I want to know is filled-out ratio per language.
There was
a chart included in translation files folder at the age of Plone 1.
Does anyone
know similar tools for Plone 3?

Thank you very much.
retsu




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