Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Hard Problem
On 16 January 2014 18:29, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: Colin, Liz, What do you find wrong with what Dennett said? I didn't actually say I found anything wrong with it, just that I would expect him to want to drop the hard problem. I said that because he's wanted to for decades now, and indeed believes he has. And perhaps he's right. If we can explain what it means for consciousness to supervene on matter then I think it could be game over for the HP. Until then I remain agnostic, as I find myself doing on many things. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Hard Problem
On 16 Jan 2014, at 08:11, meekerdb wrote: On 1/15/2014 7:20 PM, LizR wrote: Ah, well, I would expect Dennett to say that! On 16 January 2014 16:19, Colin Geoffrey Hales cgha...@unimelb.edu.au wrote: http://www.edge.org/response-detail/25289 I think Dennett is right. As soon as we're able to build robots that act as intelligently as humans, all talk of the hard problem and qualia will fade away and be seen as asking the wrong question. On the contrary. If intelligent machine appears, they will struggle like us on the hard question. Even more so, in the paradoxical situation where they extract the comp physics, and it is different from physics, then the 3-1 person associated to such machine will ... correctly know that they are zombie! Dennett is just abandoning the problem, because he fail to solve it. but with comp, we know that his error is in the physicalist, weakly materialist, stance that he adopts. He is just denying the contardiction he tend toward, between weak materialism and computationalism (that he adopts too). I was hoping you could see that, a part (at least) of the comp mind- body problem is well formulated (at the least). We'll know that if we fit the robot with IR retinas it will see IR. If we program it to do drastic and dangerous things when frustrated, we'll know it's angry. I am not sure we can program that. It is more like we can't avoid machine to introspect and become like that, through long and deep histories. Bruno Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Hard Problem
On 16 Jan 2014, at 04:19, Colin Geoffrey Hales wrote: http://www.edge.org/response-detail/25289 Daniel C. Dennett Philosopher; Austin B. Fletcher Professor of Philosophy, Co- Director, Center for Cognitive Studies, Tufts University; Author, Intuition Pumps And again Cheers Niloc am done Dennet wrote (there): Is the Hard Problem an idea that demonstrates the need for a major revolution in science if consciousness is ever to be explained, or an idea that demonstrates the frailties of human imagination? That question is not settled at this time, so scientists should consider adopting the cautious course that postpones all accommodation with it. That's how most neuroscientists handle ESP and psychokinesis—assuming, defeasibly, that they are figments of imagination. The question has been settled, it seems to me, or at least reduce to another more precise question. And the answer is that if computationalism is true, as dennett advocates, then consciousness is not a figment of imagination (which makes no sense), but physicalism is refuted, and the new problem is to compare the comp physics (the physics extracted from arithmetic, by comp) and the facts. Bruno -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Hard Problem
Dear Bruno, Hear Hear! Dennett wants to be correct by making the Hard Problem go away. that is the most lazy way of solving the problem: making a long winded wand-waving argument that consciousness is an illusion and then failing to explain the persistence of the stipulated illusion! On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 6:05 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 16 Jan 2014, at 08:11, meekerdb wrote: On 1/15/2014 7:20 PM, LizR wrote: Ah, well, I would expect Dennett to say that! On 16 January 2014 16:19, Colin Geoffrey Hales cgha...@unimelb.edu.auwrote: http://www.edge.org/response-detail/25289 I think Dennett is right. As soon as we're able to build robots that act as intelligently as humans, all talk of the hard problem and qualia will fade away and be seen as asking the wrong question. On the contrary. If intelligent machine appears, they will struggle like us on the hard question. Even more so, in the paradoxical situation where they extract the comp physics, and it is different from physics, then the 3-1 person associated to such machine will ... correctly know that they are zombie! Dennett is just abandoning the problem, because he fail to solve it. but with comp, we know that his error is in the physicalist, weakly materialist, stance that he adopts. He is just denying the contardiction he tend toward, between weak materialism and computationalism (that he adopts too). I was hoping you could see that, a part (at least) of the comp mind-body problem is well formulated (at the least). We'll know that if we fit the robot with IR retinas it will see IR. If we program it to do drastic and dangerous things when frustrated, we'll know it's angry. I am not sure we can program that. It is more like we can't avoid machine to introspect and become like that, through long and deep histories. Bruno Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/everything-list/TBc_y2MZV5c/unsubscribe. To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- Kindest Regards, Stephen Paul King Senior Researcher Mobile: (864) 567-3099 stephe...@provensecure.com http://www.provensecure.us/ “This message (including any attachments) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed, and may contain information that is non-public, proprietary, privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law or may be constituted as attorney work product. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, notify sender immediately and delete this message immediately.” -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
RE: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Hard Problem
http://www.edge.org/response-detail/25289 Daniel C. Dennetthttp://www.edge.org/memberbio/daniel_c_dennett Philosopher; Austin B. Fletcher Professor of Philosophy, Co-Director, Center for Cognitive Studies, Tufts University; Author, Intuition Pumps And again Cheers Niloc am done -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Hard Problem
Ah, well, I would expect Dennett to say that! On 16 January 2014 16:19, Colin Geoffrey Hales cgha...@unimelb.edu.auwrote: http://www.edge.org/response-detail/25289 *Daniel C. Dennett* http://www.edge.org/memberbio/daniel_c_dennett *Philosopher; Austin B. Fletcher Professor of Philosophy, Co-Director, Center for Cognitive Studies, Tufts University; Author, Intuition Pumps* And again Cheers Niloc am done -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
RE: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Hard Problem
:) yeah... he does that he's so wrong and yet I like him a lot. From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of LizR Sent: Thursday, 16 January 2014 2:21 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Hard Problem Ah, well, I would expect Dennett to say that! On 16 January 2014 16:19, Colin Geoffrey Hales cgha...@unimelb.edu.aumailto:cgha...@unimelb.edu.au wrote: http://www.edge.org/response-detail/25289 Daniel C. Dennetthttp://www.edge.org/memberbio/daniel_c_dennett Philosopher; Austin B. Fletcher Professor of Philosophy, Co-Director, Center for Cognitive Studies, Tufts University; Author, Intuition Pumps And again Cheers Niloc am done -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.commailto:everything-list%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.commailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.commailto:everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.commailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Hard Problem
Colin, Liz, What do you find wrong with what Dennett said? Jason On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 9:21 PM, Colin Geoffrey Hales cgha...@unimelb.edu.au wrote: J yeah... he does that he’s so wrong and yet I like him a lot. *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto: everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *LizR *Sent:* Thursday, 16 January 2014 2:21 PM *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com *Subject:* Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Hard Problem Ah, well, I would expect Dennett to say that! On 16 January 2014 16:19, Colin Geoffrey Hales cgha...@unimelb.edu.au wrote: http://www.edge.org/response-detail/25289 *Daniel C. Dennett* http://www.edge.org/memberbio/daniel_c_dennett *Philosopher; Austin B. Fletcher Professor of Philosophy, Co-Director, Center for Cognitive Studies, Tufts University; Author, Intuition Pumps* And again Cheers Niloc am done -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Hard Problem
On 1/15/2014 7:20 PM, LizR wrote: Ah, well, I would expect Dennett to say that! On 16 January 2014 16:19, Colin Geoffrey Hales cgha...@unimelb.edu.au mailto:cgha...@unimelb.edu.au wrote: http://www.edge.org/response-detail/25289 I think Dennett is right. As soon as we're able to build robots that act as intelligently as humans, all talk of the hard problem and qualia will fade away and be seen as asking the wrong question. We'll know that if we fit the robot with IR retinas it will see IR. If we program it to do drastic and dangerous things when frustrated, we'll know it's angry. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
