Re: Re: The unpredictability of solar energy
Hi Platonist Guitar Cowboy It's not that complicated. The Revelation of John foretells the coming apocalypse. St Augustine and anybody else has to stick with that book, like it or not, unless, of course, liberalism has already destroyed you. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/18/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Platonist Guitar Cowboy Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-17, 15:39:54 Subject: Re: The unpredictability of solar energy Alberto, On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 9:27 PM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: This is in fact the return to primitive cults to the mother earth, the feeder, that give us resources from his pregnant belly. It is exactly that. only that instead of vegetabless and game, it is minerals and energy and biodiversity. I have to say that the utopism/apocalipticism is a perversion of christianity that had its justification in the spectations of primitive cristianity, but Saint Agustine reinterpreted it well to avoid its revolutionary and disturbing character. Joaquin de Fiore, broke with the agustinian interpretation and proposed a new age of?pirituality?n earth. This reinterpretation is widely?dmitted?y most historians as the foundation of modernity. The evangelical movements, the French revolution, the?ommunism?nd the current environmentalism are the derivations of this expectancy in ever increasing degrees of radicalism and inmanentism. ? Once the distorted?hristian?ects, first,?nd then the grand ideologies passed by, the only remain in the resulting nihilism are the primitive atavic cults that return naturally back, permeated by the distorted?hristian?spirations and all other rests of the shipwreck. Eric Voegelin is the great philosopher that more deeply studied the spirit of modernity as a consequence of the helenic and christian roots. I recommend The new science of Politics.? It seems like the mix of fear and desire for the extraordinary grows with the repression of magic in ordinary life. Magic is dangerous because it promotes?yranny?nd manipulation, and the repression of magic allows an scientific study of reality, and for this matter the christian spirit gave science and, for the first time in history, applied science. But the desire for the extraordinary persist.? The apocalypse myth has been with every generation. Attacking it has nothing to do with finding flaws in the work of Hansen and co. Not my area of expertise, but from what I read, as far as we know, it's as solid as we can get. If everybody that tries to frame facts critically with available data is alarmist, then how can do you save criticism? PGC -- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: The unpredictability of solar energy
Roger, On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 12:30 PM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi Platonist Guitar Cowboy It's not that complicated. The Revelation of John foretells the coming apocalypse. St Augustine and anybody else has to stick with that book, like it or not, unless, of course, liberalism has already destroyed you. 1) I don't buy the conservative v. liberal narratives from US perspective. 2) You're not serious with the Christian or monad values you hype: - Jesus implies sharing, Roger posts greed is good. - Jesus and Leibniz tend towards immaterialism, Roger prays to acquisition of wealth for its own sake - Jesus and Leibniz are clear on solidarity and compassion to groups, Roger is not liberal/socialist. Nobody is perfect, but this is definitely pushing it in the Kierkegaard sense of (I paraphrase) 90% of those that go to Church or call themselves Christian do not really have faith- they use faith politically. Preaching one thing and doing opposite. They are not really concerned with working on themselves or for the arrival of the Kingdom of the lord. If they were, they'd pose less for vanity's sake, speak less, and do more. For instance, it doesn't concern most Christians that we haven't tackled the problem of good and evil sufficiently, and although the bible gives us pointers, there are many deep open problems such as this, that most Christians are in denial of, and that our holy book only begins to address. I think that that is a profound, open Christian attitude, granted with flaws here and there, but still open enough for serious inquiry. So please refrain from pulling the personal faith card on us, because I for one just can't decide which Roger I am reading: the Christian, the conservative, or to return to topic, the guy who is untroubled by making a mess on his Lord's earth if it's for greed's sake, which is good etc. This undermines discussion of the issue. PGC -- [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/18/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Platonist Guitar Cowboy Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-17, 15:39:54 Subject: Re: The unpredictability of solar energy Alberto, On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 9:27 PM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: This is in fact the return to primitive cults to the mother earth, the feeder, that give us resources from his pregnant belly. It is exactly that. only that instead of vegetabless and game, it is minerals and energy and biodiversity. I have to say that the utopism/apocalipticism is a perversion of christianity that had its justification in the spectations of primitive cristianity, but Saint Agustine reinterpreted it well to avoid its revolutionary and disturbing character. Joaquin de Fiore, broke with the agustinian interpretation and proposed a new age of?pirituality?n earth. This reinterpretation is widely?dmitted?y most historians as the foundation of modernity. The evangelical movements, the French revolution, the?ommunism?nd the current environmentalism are the derivations of this expectancy in ever increasing degrees of radicalism and inmanentism. ? Once the distorted?hristian?ects, first,?nd then the grand ideologies passed by, the only remain in the resulting nihilism are the primitive atavic cults that return naturally back, permeated by the distorted?hristian?spirations and all other rests of the shipwreck. Eric Voegelin is the great philosopher that more deeply studied the spirit of modernity as a consequence of the helenic and christian roots. I recommend The new science of Politics.? It seems like the mix of fear and desire for the extraordinary grows with the repression of magic in ordinary life. Magic is dangerous because it promotes?yranny?nd manipulation, and the repression of magic allows an scientific study of reality, and for this matter the christian spirit gave science and, for the first time in history, applied science. But the desire for the extraordinary persist.? The apocalypse myth has been with every generation. Attacking it has nothing to do with finding flaws in the work of Hansen and co. Not my area of expertise, but from what I read, as far as we know, it's as solid as we can get. If everybody that tries to frame facts critically with available data is alarmist, then how can do you save criticism? PGC -- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from
Re: Re: The unpredictability of solar energy
Hi Telmo Menezes I think we will run out of fresh water and food before we run out of fossil fuels. The ocean floors are covered with frozen methyl hydrates, for example. And there is an unlimited amount of nuclear power. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/17/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Telmo Menezes Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-17, 07:02:01 Subject: Re: The unpredictability of solar energy I'm agnostic about the environmental apocalipse. Producing useful scientific theories about complex systems is already a daunting task. When the issue is so heavily politicised by both sides, it becomes almost impossible. Anyone that has ever done experimental research knows how easy it is to lie with statistics and graphs. One would have to study climate science for years just to get to the point of being able to have an informed opinion. The thing is so ideological now that you can't trust anyone to tell you the truth. Is big industry funding a misinformation campaign to protect their profits? Sounds plausible. Are?ureaucratic?nti-capitalist scientists distorting the facts to protect their careers? Sounds plausible. Things we know for sure: fossil fules are a finite resource. The current human population is only possible because of fossil fuel energy. If we don't find an alternative, we will eventually face a mass extinction event. I'm not sure such an alternative exists, but maybe I'll be proven wrong (at least for my 1p) by MWI and QS. On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 11:57 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: Count me as an heretic denialist of the ecological Apocalipsis. The Michael Mann hockey stick is a fraud as you can verify in the mails leaked in the Climate Research Unit. You must read the mails to have an idea of the context in which the global warming?windle?as growth. 90% of the mails between climate scientists around the world were related with the need for?overnment?oney for department growth. And this includes people of many US and EU universitary institutions. ?his is Specially true for the experimental data, made most of them by russian scientist in a vanishing USSR that desperately needed money from the west. http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/08/23/make-your-own-mannian-hockey-stick-at-home/ ?l Gore (peace upon it), ?he Michael Mann (the merciful and compassionate) prophet added still more fallacies. I know that i deserve the hot Hell for saying something about the sacred books of IPCC, a political body made of power-hungry bureaucrats of sicience, that consistently have denied or diminished any other sources of climate influence but anthropogenic CO2, but here I am. 2013/1/17 meekerdb On 1/16/2013 3:54 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 1/16/2013 1:52 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 1/16/2013 1:45 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: ? Now the same PR firms are hired by the oil and coal industry to obfuscate the problem of global warming. And meanwhile we disregard other options out of ideology, namely geo-engineering. They are disregarded not out of ideology; they are disregarded because the global warming denial industry has succeeded in obfuscating the science so that people think there is great uncertainty about the problem.? Of course they are not going to do anything about a problem they are not sure exists, and certainly not anything so drastic, and whose consequences are as difficult to predict, as geo-engineering. Brent There are a couple of very interesting proposals on that front that are dismissed without proper thought. Global warming can kill us all, but so can energy shortage. Hi Brent, ?? Why is it that almost all of the Green proposals are exactly what would be required to push civilization back to the Stone age, once implemented fully? And those would be what?? Solar power, geo-thermal power, tidal power, wind power, liquid thorium reactors - which exactly do you see as stone age technology? Frankly, I worry more about the impending Ice age which is about over due if the cycle that we see in the Vostok icecore data is real. Maybe you wouldn't be so worried if you noticed that CO2 peaked at 300ppm on all those warm cycles and it's now at 390ppm and climbing so fast it's just a vertical line on the above time scale (unlike the previous cycles).? Or maybe you're just part of the denialist industry. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group
Re: Re: The unpredictability of solar energy
The idea of the end of resources comes from Malthus, but it can be traced much back in time, to some misconceptions of what is a resource from our evolutionary past. It is though naturally that a resource is something produced by the heart, which is not in the hand of the man to fabricate it. This is due to the fact that the hunter-gatherer clans where we evolved had no innovation, there were no agriculture nor industry nor cattle, so the game passed by and the wild vegetables depleted locally and the clans had to be nomads in permanent search of new resources. Infanticide for lack of resources and to keep it in manageable number for the movements were common practice. Many misconceptions come from this primitive mind: because the resources are finite, more for me means less for you, because we can no fabricate plants nor animals. The refusal to admit that the modern economy is not a zero sum game. The fact is that we can fabricate plants and animals, and produce new kinds of energy, and find new resources. Most of the most advanced and valuable thigs are made with matherials that were worthless before. Petrol only formed dangerous swamps for the catle before the combustion engine. Sand were just sand before the silicon revolution. The univese is full of energy materials and space at the disposal of the human intelligence. At this moment we have not found any contender in the property rights of the vicinity. To cry for any foreseeable scacity in the future is primitive. We are hearing these cries since the beginning of humanity. The coming of an apocalypsis is an innovation of the judaic and christian mindset that the post-christian sects have inherited. apocalypse means a time of hope (parousia) and suffering at the en of the time, that inaugurates a new era. Since Joaquim de Fiore (XIII century) all the western movements had a form of another belief on apocalipticism or/and utopic new age. This apocalipticism is so deep in the western mindset, that the Naya prophecy of the end of the world is not so. It is a western re-interpretation of a no-ending cyclic calendar by western esoterics. The two reinterpretations: one, the end of the world in 2012 and the other, the beginning of a new era, are just a direct derivations of the double interpretation of the Christian apocalypse. 2013/1/17 Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net Hi Telmo Menezes I think we will run out of fresh water and food before we run out of fossil fuels. The ocean floors are covered with frozen methyl hydrates, for example. And there is an unlimited amount of nuclear power. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/17/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Telmo Menezes Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-17, 07:02:01 Subject: Re: The unpredictability of solar energy I'm agnostic about the environmental apocalipse. Producing useful scientific theories about complex systems is already a daunting task. When the issue is so heavily politicised by both sides, it becomes almost impossible. Anyone that has ever done experimental research knows how easy it is to lie with statistics and graphs. One would have to study climate science for years just to get to the point of being able to have an informed opinion. The thing is so ideological now that you can't trust anyone to tell you the truth. Is big industry funding a misinformation campaign to protect their profits? Sounds plausible. Are?ureaucratic?nti-capitalist scientists distorting the facts to protect their careers? Sounds plausible. Things we know for sure: fossil fules are a finite resource. The current human population is only possible because of fossil fuel energy. If we don't find an alternative, we will eventually face a mass extinction event. I'm not sure such an alternative exists, but maybe I'll be proven wrong (at least for my 1p) by MWI and QS. On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 11:57 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: Count me as an heretic denialist of the ecological Apocalipsis. The Michael Mann hockey stick is a fraud as you can verify in the mails leaked in the Climate Research Unit. You must read the mails to have an idea of the context in which the global warming?windle?as growth. 90% of the mails between climate scientists around the world were related with the need for?overnment?oney for department growth. And this includes people of many US and EU universitary institutions. ?his is Specially true for the experimental data, made most of them by russian scientist in a vanishing USSR that desperately needed money from the west. http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/08/23/make-your-own-mannian-hockey-stick-at-home/ ?l Gore (peace upon it), ?he Michael Mann (the merciful and compassionate) prophet added still more fallacies. I know that i deserve the hot Hell for saying something about the sacred books of IPCC, a political body made
Re: Re: Re: The unpredictability of solar energy
Hi Platonist Guitar Cowboy A more powwerful way to steal from the future is to continue govt spending as it is. But to get back to the issue, I'll let the market decide. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/14/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Platonist Guitar Cowboy Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-13, 09:50:52 Subject: Re: Re: The unpredictability of solar energy Hi Roger On Sun, Jan 13, 2013 at 12:03 PM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Platonist Guitar Cowboy I always let the market decide. Please. It's peoples' behavior that determines market. And it has decided: you can steal from the coming generations by allowing energy industry to continue stealing from you or you can work to lower long term costs for your friends and family, the people you live with, local interests and community, energy independence and profit in long term. But sure, go ahead, think that gas and utilities prices will keep falling as dramatically as they have. ? You can't go wrong that way. I doubt Leibniz would agree. Harnessing energy all around us instead of burning, drilling etc. is the least materialistic prospect for now, concerning energy. Additionally, both Jesus and numbers of straight market economics over the long run, and if you're smart even in short to mid term (I know people who are making profit TODAY by mixing their energy needs with contributing energy themselves; the moment you can afford to do this, it makes sense from any economic point of view), do not cohere with your infallibility derived from market + short-term perspective. Also, you could consider dealing the most harmful, addictive drugs and/or get into organized crime: the market has decided these to be very lucrative. But drop the Jesus and God talk for now on, because your usage and relationship to personal theology seems pretty clear now. Thanks for sharing. PGC -- ? [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/13/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Platonist Guitar Cowboy Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-12, 11:06:43 Subject: Re: The unpredictability of solar energy Hi Roger, On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 11:35 AM, Roger Clough ?rote: The unpredictability of solar energy ? I've lost the page ref for the graph below, but it's typical of numerous other graphs of the daily variation in solar energy on the internet. (For a comparison see solar variations on http://www.bigindianabass.com/big_indiana_bass/2010/01/yearly-water-temps-precip-and-solar-energy.html?) ? The hourly variation would be much worse, since the sun does not shine at night. ? The variation from day to day is unpredicatable and enormous, going from?ear 0 Ly to almost 100 Ly. This is probably due to variable cloud cover, not auto exhaust emissions. ? I'll stay with conventional electric power, thank you very much. ? ? ? ? Ly. Langley, a measurement of solar energy. One langley is equal to one gram-calorie per square centimeter. A gram-calorie is the amount of heat required to raise the temperature of one gram of water one degree Celsius. ? ? Good for you but perhaps bad for your wallet in long term. In Germany, many are starting to see that independence from fossil fuel monopolies is not just ideological... it turns citizens into energy traders instead of big oil slaves. See: In Germany, where sensible federal rules have fast-tracked and streamlined the permit process, the costs are considerably lower. It can take as little as eight days to license and install a solar system on a house in Germany. In the United States, depending on your state, the average ranges from 120 to 180 days. More than one million Germans have installed solar panels on their roofs. Australia also has a streamlined permitting process and has solar panels on 10 percent of its homes. Solar photovoltaic power would give America the potential to challenge the utility monopolies, democratize energy generation and transform millions of homes and small businesses into energy generators. Rational, market-based rules could turn every American into an energy entrepreneur. That transition to renewable power could create millions of domestic jobs and power in this country with American resourcefulness, initiative and entrepreneurial energy while taking a substantial bite out of the nation? emissions of greenhouse gases and other dangerous pollutants. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/13/opinion/solar-panels-for-every-home.html?_r=0 It's really not an ideological green vs. conservative matter. People just don't like being stolen from. The energy monopolies thank YOUR wallet very much, as for solar panel users, we don't care if people have ideological axes to grind for which they want to pay
Re: Re: Re: The unpredictability of solar energy
THe problem with solar energy is that it is strongly subsidized. Instead of you being stolen by monopolistic energy companies, you can steal the taxpayer thank to state planning. Most solar panels are installed because they receive subsidies by KW. As a logical consequience a boost in production is expected. In fact they produced electricity even in the night at full level. ... With some help of pirate electrogenerators working with fossil fuels, hidden near then. Many governments, ruined by this authentic robbery or all these ecological friends of the planet, had to switch the schema of subsidies, to a fixed schema, that don´t take into account the production. That foreseeable bureaucratic move had the foreseeable consequences: That rendered the most productive and expensive and technologically advanced panels a ruinous investment. Technological development has stopped and engineers fired. Because the subsidies is independent of production now, most of them don care to maintain the panels. Most of them do not plug them to the transmission lines and generate the minimum required of production at sun ours with less fossil fuel generators while they receive the solar subsidies. According with the subsidies contracts, made at the peak of the bubble, countries like Spain and Germany have compromises of payment that they will not have enough money from taxpayers to pay now and in the coming years. The had to break contracts and reduce subsidies, damaging the credibility of the judicial system, many best producers lost their investments and only the worst had benefits. Most of them, big companies which had contact with the government and knew in advance the changes so they reacted accordingly to have the maximum cost-benefit with the less investment. Those that were conscious that what the panels produce is not electricity forever, but suck money from the taxpayers as long as the subsidy plans were active, won. And this is the result of just another wonderful state planning experiment 2013/1/14 Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net Hi Platonist Guitar Cowboy A more powwerful way to steal from the future is to continue govt spending as it is. But to get back to the issue, I'll let the market decide. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/14/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Platonist Guitar Cowboy Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-13, 09:50:52 Subject: Re: Re: The unpredictability of solar energy Hi Roger On Sun, Jan 13, 2013 at 12:03 PM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Platonist Guitar Cowboy I always let the market decide. Please. It's peoples' behavior that determines market. And it has decided: you can steal from the coming generations by allowing energy industry to continue stealing from you or you can work to lower long term costs for your friends and family, the people you live with, local interests and community, energy independence and profit in long term. But sure, go ahead, think that gas and utilities prices will keep falling as dramatically as they have. ? You can't go wrong that way. I doubt Leibniz would agree. Harnessing energy all around us instead of burning, drilling etc. is the least materialistic prospect for now, concerning energy. Additionally, both Jesus and numbers of straight market economics over the long run, and if you're smart even in short to mid term (I know people who are making profit TODAY by mixing their energy needs with contributing energy themselves; the moment you can afford to do this, it makes sense from any economic point of view), do not cohere with your infallibility derived from market + short-term perspective. Also, you could consider dealing the most harmful, addictive drugs and/or get into organized crime: the market has decided these to be very lucrative. But drop the Jesus and God talk for now on, because your usage and relationship to personal theology seems pretty clear now. Thanks for sharing. PGC -- ? [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/13/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Platonist Guitar Cowboy Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-12, 11:06:43 Subject: Re: The unpredictability of solar energy Hi Roger, On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 11:35 AM, Roger Clough ?rote: The unpredictability of solar energy ? I've lost the page ref for the graph below, but it's typical of numerous other graphs of the daily variation in solar energy on the internet. (For a comparison see solar variations on http://www.bigindianabass.com/big_indiana_bass/2010/01/yearly-water-temps-precip-and-solar-energy.html ?) ? The hourly variation would be much worse, since the sun does not shine at night. ? The variation from day to day is unpredicatable and enormous, going from?ear 0 Ly to almost 100 Ly
Re: Re: Re: The unpredictability of solar energy
Instead of complaining now or watching what the market does, by not really watching it á la Roger, better include the future when considering past and present: I bet that Spain, with its sunshine monopoly and mix of renewable energy and infrastructure investment of the last years, will be able to fend off worst effects of economic woes in Europe when compared to Greece etc. Spain will be better positioned in the next years even though it now looks worrying. My home country is neighbouring Portugal, and we made a huge investment on renewable energy sources in the last decade - solar and wind. It was (and still is) highly subsidised by the state. I still have an appartement there and pay the monthly energy bill. I pay a similar amount to my friends and family who actually live there and use energy, because the energy bill is now about 75% taxes. I recently received an email warning me that I'll have to pay even more this year. Energy-dependent industry is collapsing all over the country because their business in no longer viable. One of the main industrial plants (metallurgic) near my home town closed its doors last year. This tax now extends to gas. Stealing gas from cars is now becoming a common crime (almost unheard of a couple years ago). Meanwhile Paris runs on nuclear energy. My energy bill here is about half of my Portuguese energy bill - the latter for zero kW. I spent Christmas night at my in-laws and they turned up the heating as a special treat. Keeping it on the entire month would cost them about 900 euros. This is the view from the ground. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Re: The unpredictability of solar energy
You are californian its'nt? 2013/1/14 Platonist Guitar Cowboy multiplecit...@gmail.com On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 2:42 PM, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.comwrote: THe problem with solar energy is that it is strongly subsidized. Yes, but this is lessening. Protectionism is crumbling. Instead of you being stolen by monopolistic energy companies, you can steal the taxpayer thank to state planning. I am the taxpayer and this is better than weapons business or paying for prohibition. Most solar panels are installed because they receive subsidies by KW. As a logical consequience a boost in production is expected. In fact they produced electricity even in the night at full level. ... With some help of pirate electrogenerators working with fossil fuels, hidden near then. Many governments, ruined by this authentic robbery or all these ecological friends of the planet, had to switch the schema of subsidies, to a fixed schema, that don´t take into account the production. You have to incentivize early adopters. When they are weaned off in a couple of years, more renewable energies and their mixes will have the same cost effectivity. That foreseeable bureaucratic move had the foreseeable consequences: That rendered the most productive and expensive and technologically advanced panels a ruinous investment. Technological development has stopped and engineers fired. Because the subsidies is independent of production now, most of them don care to maintain the panels. Most of them do not plug them to the transmission lines and generate the minimum required of production at sun ours with less fossil fuel generators while they receive the solar subsidies. For the first time last year; at certain times, up to half of Germany's electricity demand were covered by mix of renewable energy. According with the subsidies contracts, made at the peak of the bubble, countries like Spain and Germany have compromises of payment that they will not have enough money from taxpayers to pay now and in the coming years. The had to break contracts and reduce subsidies, damaging the credibility of the judicial system, many best producers lost their investments and only the worst had benefits. Most of them, big companies which had contact with the government and knew in advance the changes so they reacted accordingly to have the maximum cost-benefit with the less investment. Instead of complaining now or watching what the market does, by not really watching it á la Roger, better include the future when considering past and present: I bet that Spain, with its sunshine monopoly and mix of renewable energy and infrastructure investment of the last years, will be able to fend off worst effects of economic woes in Europe when compared to Greece etc. Spain will be better positioned in the next years even though it now looks worrying. Those that were conscious that what the panels produce is not electricity forever, but suck money from the taxpayers as long as the subsidy plans were active, won. Yeah, so traditional fossil fuels produce energy forever and don't cost taxpayer any money while minimizing harm for the environment and democratizing energy generation. And the prices keep falling. And this is the result of just another wonderful state planning experiment A state that makes no bets on sustainability, however misguided or corrupt they seem at the start (technology never appears in its most efficient guise at the beginning), is undermining its own role as infrastructure provider and governing body. Luckily more people are taking things into their own hands: local engineers are volunteering their free time to help render their communities and districts more sustainably through more intelligent and locally sourced energy mixes. Nobody is pounding on solar exclusively: straw man. Thus in a non-literal sense: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTErMW2jBJA PGC -- 2013/1/14 Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net Hi Platonist Guitar Cowboy A more powwerful way to steal from the future is to continue govt spending as it is. But to get back to the issue, I'll let the market decide. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/14/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Platonist Guitar Cowboy Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-13, 09:50:52 Subject: Re: Re: The unpredictability of solar energy Hi Roger On Sun, Jan 13, 2013 at 12:03 PM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Platonist Guitar Cowboy I always let the market decide. Please. It's peoples' behavior that determines market. And it has decided: you can steal from the coming generations by allowing energy industry to continue stealing from you or you can work to lower long term costs for your friends and family, the people you live with, local interests and community, energy independence and profit
Re: Re: The unpredictability of solar energy
Hi Platonist Guitar Cowboy I always let the market decide. You can't go wrong that way. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/13/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Platonist Guitar Cowboy Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-12, 11:06:43 Subject: Re: The unpredictability of solar energy Hi Roger, On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 11:35 AM, Roger Clough wrote: The unpredictability of solar energy ? I've lost the page ref for the graph below, but it's typical of numerous other graphs of the daily variation in solar energy on the internet. (For a comparison see solar variations on http://www.bigindianabass.com/big_indiana_bass/2010/01/yearly-water-temps-precip-and-solar-energy.html?) ? The hourly variation would be much worse, since the sun does not shine at night. ? The variation from day to day is unpredicatable and enormous, going from?ear 0 Ly to almost 100 Ly. This is probably due to variable cloud cover, not auto exhaust emissions. ? I'll stay with conventional electric power, thank you very much. ? ? ? ? Ly. Langley, a measurement of solar energy. One langley is equal to one gram-calorie per square centimeter. A gram-calorie is the amount of heat required to raise the temperature of one gram of water one degree Celsius. ? ? Good for you but perhaps bad for your wallet in long term. In Germany, many are starting to see that independence from fossil fuel monopolies is not just ideological... it turns citizens into energy traders instead of big oil slaves. See: In Germany, where sensible federal rules have fast-tracked and streamlined the permit process, the costs are considerably lower. It can take as little as eight days to license and install a solar system on a house in Germany. In the United States, depending on your state, the average ranges from 120 to 180 days. More than one million Germans have installed solar panels on their roofs. Australia also has a streamlined permitting process and has solar panels on 10 percent of its homes. Solar photovoltaic power would give America the potential to challenge the utility monopolies, democratize energy generation and transform millions of homes and small businesses into energy generators. Rational, market-based rules could turn every American into an energy entrepreneur. That transition to renewable power could create millions of domestic jobs and power in this country with American resourcefulness, initiative and entrepreneurial energy while taking a substantial bite out of the nation? emissions of greenhouse gases and other dangerous pollutants. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/13/opinion/solar-panels-for-every-home.html?_r=0 It's really not an ideological green vs. conservative matter. People just don't like being stolen from. The energy monopolies thank YOUR wallet very much, as for solar panel users, we don't care if people have ideological axes to grind for which they want to pay, instead of trading themselves with that little patch of sunshine that everybody owns. For most I know, it's not an either/or thing anyway; everybody just wants to transition to energy that costs less in long term and that brings cash into the household, instead of burning it. To not give the wrong impression: these moves make politics more complex and we have huge problems facing us with renewable energy in terms of costly infrastructure and higher electricity bills in short to midterm, which this entails. But we can still opt for companies with fossil fuel based cheaper energy. And if people are starting to make money in sunny Germany where everybody goes for abundant sunshine and beaches, then for many parts of the US this would mean... PGC ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/12/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options
Re: Re: The unpredictability of solar energy
Hi Roger On Sun, Jan 13, 2013 at 12:03 PM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi Platonist Guitar Cowboy I always let the market decide. Please. It's peoples' behavior that determines market. And it has decided: you can steal from the coming generations by allowing energy industry to continue stealing from you or you can work to lower long term costs for your friends and family, the people you live with, local interests and community, energy independence and profit in long term. But sure, go ahead, think that gas and utilities prices will keep falling as dramatically as they have. You can't go wrong that way. I doubt Leibniz would agree. Harnessing energy all around us instead of burning, drilling etc. is the least materialistic prospect for now, concerning energy. Additionally, both Jesus and numbers of straight market economics over the long run, and if you're smart even in short to mid term (I know people who are making profit TODAY by mixing their energy needs with contributing energy themselves; the moment you can afford to do this, it makes sense from any economic point of view), do not cohere with your infallibility derived from market + short-term perspective. Also, you could consider dealing the most harmful, addictive drugs and/or get into organized crime: the market has decided these to be very lucrative. But drop the Jesus and God talk for now on, because your usage and relationship to personal theology seems pretty clear now. Thanks for sharing. PGC -- [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/13/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Platonist Guitar Cowboy Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-12, 11:06:43 Subject: Re: The unpredictability of solar energy Hi Roger, On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 11:35 AM, Roger Clough wrote: The unpredictability of solar energy ? I've lost the page ref for the graph below, but it's typical of numerous other graphs of the daily variation in solar energy on the internet. (For a comparison see solar variations on http://www.bigindianabass.com/big_indiana_bass/2010/01/yearly-water-temps-precip-and-solar-energy.html ?) ? The hourly variation would be much worse, since the sun does not shine at night. ? The variation from day to day is unpredicatable and enormous, going from?ear 0 Ly to almost 100 Ly. This is probably due to variable cloud cover, not auto exhaust emissions. ? I'll stay with conventional electric power, thank you very much. ? ? ? ? Ly. Langley, a measurement of solar energy. One langley is equal to one gram-calorie per square centimeter. A gram-calorie is the amount of heat required to raise the temperature of one gram of water one degree Celsius. ? ? Good for you but perhaps bad for your wallet in long term. In Germany, many are starting to see that independence from fossil fuel monopolies is not just ideological... it turns citizens into energy traders instead of big oil slaves. See: In Germany, where sensible federal rules have fast-tracked and streamlined the permit process, the costs are considerably lower. It can take as little as eight days to license and install a solar system on a house in Germany. In the United States, depending on your state, the average ranges from 120 to 180 days. More than one million Germans have installed solar panels on their roofs. Australia also has a streamlined permitting process and has solar panels on 10 percent of its homes. Solar photovoltaic power would give America the potential to challenge the utility monopolies, democratize energy generation and transform millions of homes and small businesses into energy generators. Rational, market-based rules could turn every American into an energy entrepreneur. That transition to renewable power could create millions of domestic jobs and power in this country with American resourcefulness, initiative and entrepreneurial energy while taking a substantial bite out of the nation? emissions of greenhouse gases and other dangerous pollutants. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/13/opinion/solar-panels-for-every-home.html?_r=0 It's really not an ideological green vs. conservative matter. People just don't like being stolen from. The energy monopolies thank YOUR wallet very much, as for solar panel users, we don't care if people have ideological axes to grind for which they want to pay, instead of trading themselves with that little patch of sunshine that everybody owns. For most I know, it's not an either/or thing anyway; everybody just wants to transition to energy that costs less in long term and that brings cash into the household, instead of burning it. To not give the wrong impression: these moves make politics more complex and we have huge problems facing us with renewable energy in terms of costly infrastructure and higher electricity bills in short to midterm, which
