On Mon, Jul 11, 2005 at 10:38:35PM -0700, George Levy wrote:
> Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
>
> >The ionic gradients across cell membranes determine the transmembrane
> >potential and how close the neuron is to the voltage threshold which
> >will trigger an action potential by opening transmembran
Brent Meeker writes:
[quoting Stathis Papaioannou]
>In the case of the heart the
>simpler artificial pump might be just as good, but in the case of a
brain,
>the electrical activity of each and every neuron is intrinsically
important
>in the final result.
That last seems extremely dubious.
Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
The ionic gradients across cell membranes determine the
transmembrane potential and how close the neuron is to the voltage
threshold which will trigger an action potential by opening
transmembrane ion channels. Other factors influencing this include the
exact geometry
>>Brent Meeker writes:
>
>>I find it hard to believe that something as stable as memories that last
>>for
>>decades is encoded in a way dependent on ionic gradients across cell
>>membranes
>>and the type, number, distribution and conformation of receptor and ion
>>channel
>>proteins. What evidenc
>-Original Message-
>From: Stathis Papaioannou [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 6:33 AM
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Cc: everything-list@eskimo.com
>Subject: RE: where do copies come from?
>
>
>>Brent Meeker writes:
>
>>I find it h
Eugen Leitl writes:
> likely that multiple error correction and negative feedback systems are
in
> place to ensure that small changes are not chaotically amplified to
cause
> gross mental changes after a few seconds, and all these systems would
have
> to be simulated as well. The end result m
On Mon, Jul 11, 2005 at 10:31:56AM +1000, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
> Perhaps, perhaps not. For one thing, in the brain's case we are relying on
> the laws of chemistry and physics, which in the real world are invariable;
> we don't know what would happen if these laws were slightly off in a
m: "Johnathan Corgan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Stathis Papaioannou" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 10:48 PM
Subject: Re: where do copies come from?
Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
It is likely that multiple error correc
Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
It is likely that multiple error correction and negative
feedback systems are in place to ensure that small changes are not
chaotically amplified to cause gross mental changes after a few seconds,
On the other hand, the above may be precisely how consciousness oper
Quentin Anciaux writes:
> Nevertheless, I still think
> it would be *extremely* difficult to emulate a whole brain.
while I agree with you about the difficulty to emulate a brain that already
exists (such as emulate you or me for example), I don't think it is as such
difficult as to emulate a
Jesse Mazer wrote:
[quoting Stathis Papaioannou]
Nevertheless, I still think it would be *extremely* difficult to emulate a
whole brain. Just about every physical parameter for each neuron would be
relevant, down to the atomic level. If any of these parameters are
slightly off, or if the mathe
Hi stathis,
Le Dimanche 10 Juillet 2005 13:22, Stathis Papaioannou a écrit :
> Nevertheless, I still think
> it would be *extremely* difficult to emulate a whole brain.
while I agree with you about the difficulty to emulate a brain that already
exists (such as emulate you or me for example), I
I agree with Jesse. Nature (if that exists) build on redundancies. (As
the UD). So if the substitution level is at the neural neurons,
``slight" changes don't matter.
Of course we don't really know our substitution level. It is consistent
with comp the level is far lower. But then at that l
Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
Nevertheless, I still think it would be *extremely* difficult to emulate a
whole brain. Just about every physical parameter for each neuron would be
relevant, down to the atomic level. If any of these parameters are slightly
off, or if the mathematical model is sligh
On Sun, Jul 10, 2005 at 11:49:53PM +1000, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
> >3) Combining General and Particular Architectures
> >Fusing information to combine apriori knowledge of general architecture
> >brain functions, and particular architecture data obtained from in situ
> >functional measuremen
George Levy wrote:
[quoting Stathis Papaioannou]
>I believe the level of detail required and the complexity of the
required models is grossly underestimated.
>Simply getting a 3D image of a brain down to electron microscopic
detail, including all the synaptic
>connections, woul
Jesse Mazer writes:
[quoting Stathis Papaioannou]
Recent theory based on the work of Eric Kandel is that long term memory is
mediated by new protein synthesis in synapses, which modulates the
responsiveness of the synapse to neurotransmitter release; that is, it
isn't just the "wiring diagram"
Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
Recent theory based on the work of Eric Kandel is that
long term memory is mediated by new protein synthesis in synapses,
which modulates the responsiveness of the synapse to neurotransmitter
release; that is, it isn't just the "wiring diagram" that characterises
a me
Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
Recent theory based on the work of Eric Kandel is that long term memory is
mediated by new protein synthesis in synapses, which modulates the
responsiveness of the synapse to neurotransmitter release; that is, it
isn't just the "wiring diagram" that characterises a
Brent Meeker writes:
I find it hard to believe that something as stable as memories that last
for
decades is encoded in a way dependent on ionic gradients across cell
membranes
and the type, number, distribution and conformation of receptor and ion
channel
proteins. What evidence is there f
Le 07-juil.-05, à 16:27, Eugen Leitl a écrit :
Currently, there's only output, not input. It's invasive, and the
electrodes
don't age well.
Actually (but I'm not a specialist) I read about systems not using
electrodes. The neural nets was sensible to the waves of barin activity
like in a E
On Thu, Jul 07, 2005 at 04:15:30PM +0200, Bruno Marchal wrote:
> I think so. I have recently discovered impressioning progress in
> neuronal nets used for handicaped (completely paralyzed) people. They
> are able to learn fast the handling of a cursor and files on a
> computer. No doubt it will
Le 07-juil.-05, à 08:51, Stathis Papaioannou a écrit :
If mind uploads were to become a reality, I think the best strategy
would be research into brain-computer interfacing.
I think so. I have recently discovered impressioning progress in
neuronal nets used for handicaped (completely paralyz
Le 07-juil.-05, à 04:55, Stathis Papaioannou a écrit :
How does a quasi-zombie differ from a full zombie?
Well a full zombie is not conscious at all. By a quasi-zombie I was
meaning someone with some consciousness pathologies.
And how could his descendants ever realise this, even afte
On Thu, Jul 07, 2005 at 12:49:07PM +1000, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
> The "high standard" I have described does not go nearly as far as copying
> the exact quantum state of every atom. It is merely aknowledging the fact
Two systems in the same quantum state being indistinguishable is only
rele
On Thu, Jul 07, 2005 at 04:51:23PM +1000, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
> I have no problem with the idea that everything about a person's
> personality, memories etc. is physically encoded in his brain, and that in
> principle, sufficiently detailed knowledge about his brain should allow an
> emu
Jesse Mazer wrote:
[quoting Stathis, responding to a post by George Levy]
The "high standard" I have described does not go nearly as far as copying
the exact quantum state of every atom. It is merely aknowledging the fact
that information in brains is not stored in the anatomical arrangement of
Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
George Levy wrote:
[quoting Stathis]
You would also need to know the electrical potential at every point of
every cell membrane; the ionic gradients (Na, K, Ca, pH and others)
across every cell membrane, including intracellular membranes; the type,
position and con
George Levy wrote:
[quoting Stathis]
You would also need to know the electrical potential at every point of
every cell membrane; the ionic gradients (Na, K, Ca, pH and others) across
every cell membrane, including intracellular membranes; the type, position
and conformation of every receptor,
How does a quasi-zombie differ from a full zombie? And how could his
descendants ever realise this, even after centuries - wouldn't this require
a foolproof 3rd person method of determining 1st person experience?
--Stathis
Le 06-juil.-05, à 22:12, George Levy a écrit :
In a brain substitu
Le 06-juil.-05, à 22:12, George Levy a écrit :
In a brain substitution experiment, when should the patient say "yes
doctor" or "no doctor"?
The comp answers: this is a question bearing on a private and personal
domain, including the possible relations you have with a doctor you
thrust (
Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
You would also need to know the electrical potential at every point of
every cell membrane; the ionic gradients (Na, K, Ca, pH and others)
across every cell membrane, including intracellular membranes; the
type, position and conformation of every receptor, ion channe
On Wed, Jul 06, 2005 at 10:31:50PM +1000, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
> This may be getting a little off topic for this list, but it has always
> seemed to me hopelessly naive to think that a person's mind could be
Perhaps, perhaps not.
> emulated from cryopreserved brain tissue. It would be l
Eugen Leitl writes:
[quoting Stathis]
> point in human evolution. But while we have been discussing the rich
> philosophical issues raised by this possibility, and touched on some of
the
> social issues in a world where copying is common, nobody has really
talked
> about how these copies will
On Tue, Jul 05, 2005 at 12:41:26AM +1000, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
> point in human evolution. But while we have been discussing the rich
> philosophical issues raised by this possibility, and touched on some of the
> social issues in a world where copying is common, nobody has really talked
My initial purpose in discussing copies on this list was as an analogy for
the copies of an observer in other branches of the multiverse, to make a
point about the significance of absolute versus relative measure in the QTI.
However, the discussion has obviously taken off in a different direct
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